GM lads, we are so back. All it took was a 20k week, you know, 20k Bitcoin week to bring an episode again. So, we're here. Now we're nuking. We're nuking. We're trying to save it. As we speak, we're all of us are kind of clicking clicking some bids see if we can prevent this. I guess like expected wash out, you know, whenever you get too much one-way action at some point it's going to reverse, but we have got an episode.

Fiki's in the house. OG lad here. Um got a couple relevant guests as well we'll bring on. And let's kick off the episode and try to stop this bleed. >> [music] [music] >> All right guys, episode 102. It's been 4 months. We've had very good summer all of us I think in different ways and what a week it's been. I think let's start with just looking at the chart over the last few months and what's happened cuz this is just uh it all came at once.

Um Maybe Justin you can bring up some of these these recent moves, but wow. Uh as as fast as we went down, we came back up. I mean, even faster. It looks like it's it's kind of all happened in a third of the time that we went back down. So, we're back to around this 80k range. Um the trenches are back. Apparently, we're going to talk about FOMO in a little bit and understand what you know, what the kids are doing over there.

Um you know, a lot of the coins that should have done well, uh like expected ones like hype hype Zcash. I think like you know, these were like the the promised ones and they did indeed deliver. Um although I have to say a lot of other stuff has done well, too. And so, it's one of those like everyone feels like a genius weeks, I think. Um but these are >> came out of nowhere. >> Came out of nowhere. I think we've always Yeah, we've always said that you know, stocks need to slow down in order for crypto to catch a bid because as soon as that stops working is when people will look for another, you know, get quick rich answer. >> [laughter] >> Um maybe maybe maybe Figgy, you have an explanation for this. >> I haven't been keeping too much track of it, so >> You you you just you just looking at Pokémon all day.

Is that what's going on? >> I thought I thought crypto was going to die by the wayside. So, this this rally has been surprising for me. >> [laughter] >> I think uh you know, many others as well. I talked to, you know, heard DeFi squared, you know, obviously we've seen uh some other people leave. Uh pigeon, uh you know, a bunch of other people have kind of not been uh bullish and I had a talk with a bunch of tradfi guys this last weekend.

I was in a like some like big event and when I told them I was doing crypto, they were like, "Oh, isn't everyone quitting?" You know, I talked to a bunch of people recently. I said, "Not anymore. Check last two days. We're back. >> Yeah. Um here's like what do you guys think? Do you Do you guys think we bottomed? I mean obviously, you know, we really dumping right now. But we did have, you know, a sense of euphoria. I think I don't I'm not like a fear and greed type of guy, but I think fear and greed hit like 70 like earlier this week when it was like at 10 like like a month ago, which was like the fastest change in sentiment like in the history of crypto.

And I know there is like narratives around debasement and whatnot. So like Jordi, for example, like do you have an idea on like you know, is the debasement narrative real? Do you think Bitcoin actually bottomed? Like do you have thoughts on that? >> I'm I'm like 97% confident that like we must have bottom cuz the amount of volume that traded at 60, the amount of time we spent there, the amount of things that were going wrong.

Like literally everything was thrown at it and um like if we go back to 60, who's who's going to I mean who's like selling again? Like it just feels like that's going to be a hard sell. >> or something. >> You need something crazy to happen. Yeah. >> Something really bad has to happen. Um you know >> That's podcast. >> [laughter] >> First test of a true bull rally. >> Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. This is This is the one. That's true though.

Holy. >> [laughter] >> But we are we are in a in a great macro setup here because once the um the bond vigilantes had enough of an effect that the Fed sent started interfering um you just start talking about the dollar. And when you start talking about the dollar all day then gold and Bitcoin are the two things, you know, I think there's nothing else except for those two that sort of are the immediate responses to dollar debasement talk.

And it's gotten uh it's gotten far and wide. I mean, even even Trump if you if you look at this uh this tweet here um he he's not very happy with the bond vigilantes and he he's uh he's willing to bring in the military to stop them. So >> [laughter] [clears throat and laughter] >> We give it a listen. >> My my question to you, Jordi, is that like, you know, I tried PVPing Trump and Bessent earlier this year in the oil trade and I kind of like, you know, got wrecked.

So, I'm like, you know, they're powerful. They're powerful uh enemy. >> They're powerful enemy. That's why if you're if you're shorting bonds, you you got to be scared, you know, if you're shorting the 30-year um it's going to be a big battle. I think it's going to go back and forth. At the end of the day, like, I think the only thing that will uh keep it up is is trashing the dollar and they're going to be willing to trash the dollar.

I don't think there's any way around it. Um you know, we we had a debate sometime ago whether 10 10 million dollars was enough to uh to retire. And then today, I see this tweet um some guy saying you need 30 million dollars now to retire. That that's the new number and it's gone up 3x in like, you know, less than a year. So, clearly like there's some amount of uh dollar debasement going Oh someone's saying Ticky, you're going to be the bear.

Are you going to be the bear? >> I'm always I just I've always been skeptical. Never not skeptical. >> [laughter] >> Yeah. >> Ticky's going to come back to crypto. He's looking for new shorts now. He's going to look for >> [laughter] >> I I I'll probably come back. Don't worry. Shorting is shorting >> [laughter] >> So, I mean, the most interesting thing I would say is that over the last 3 months, if you look at the volumes, everything has been on RWAs and frequently the top trading stock is not, you know, Ethereum or Solana.

It's been SpaceX, it's been Nvidia, it's been, you know, uh whatever like the the stock of the day has been. Uh SanDisk, obviously we had a lot of the Korean stocks. And uh last few days top four on Hyperliquid is, you know, Bitcoin, ETH, SOL, hype. I don't know if that's going to last or not, but uh at least for now the speculative kind of traders have returned to crypto as um as a source of volatility. Clearly like volatility's been super high and probably will continue to be for um for the next few weeks.

And that's that's, you know, it's what these traders like, but Dem, what's your feeling? Are are these like mid caps going to going to kind of be traded for a long time or what? >> I mean, I I agree with what you previously said that everyone that's still here that's trading this market probably feels like a genius right now or at least as of 2 hours ago, I guess. Uh but I think, you know, I've I've talked to so many people and there are two categories.

One category are the, you know, the the true believers, the I would I would call them like autistic believers that include us where we've been, you know, glued to the screen 24/7 willing to click green as soon as we see this descent uh intervention. And then there's the, I guess, more normal individuals that just went around looking for another market that was performing a little bit better. You know, these guys are completely sidelined and this also includes a lot of the institutional players in the space.

So, I think the first move that we got, which was kind of, you know, kind of negative convexity type of move, is obviously done and now we're in the process of actually getting back these people that you know, kind of changed focus and now maybe they're coming back. And that is a different kind of uh buying activity that will happen. I think this probably means that, you know, you should have no FOMO kind of chasing any of these coins and just now you see this is you know, this this is the right way to play this, but you should be buying dips because the casino's kind of back in in action.

We can all kind of feel it. It is a turning point. And so I think you can start chasing narratives again, you know, the Athena trade was was great for whoever caught it. I think these are all really good signs that show that, you know, people are looking at this market and liquidity is is coming back in some way. >> One one thing I'll say though, which I think that take is is missing a little bit is it to me it seems pretty clear that there's not new entrants and new money coming into the crypto specific space.

Obviously, things like RWA perps, et cetera, there's new demand for that it seems like, but to me it doesn't seem like we have a new cohort of people interested in crypto and I wondered this as we're coming out of the last bear market and I'm wondering it even more so now if that's going to limit the upside potential cuz I don't think any new people are joining crypto right now. It's just people that were interested in trading AI, memory, et cetera.

Once that trade washed out, they're now looking back and returning to crypto. >> Well, those guys have a lot of money. They made a lot of money on AI and memory and stuff. So if it's just them, that's enough. I'll I'll be happy. >> but well like our cohort we've solved the game, right? For a lot of these assets. So I'm I don't know. I'm just continuously wondering how hard this on-chain meta can run. >> Like I I was talking to Kyle Soska who's like partners with Flood.

Obviously like big hype people, like maxis. But one thing he mentioned at the dinner is as long as the debasement narrative is back and that trade is back, you know, I think gold and Bitcoin have like all-time high correlation at this point. I think you know, there can be outside money coming into the Bitcoin at least, you know, specifically. And if people view Bitcoin as like a safety safety trade. I I I know that kind of sounds ridiculous, but I think Bitcoin is starting to become a part of the conversation around being like a defensive position that's, you know, part of like gold beta and as long as that continues to be the case I think Bitcoin will be supported. >> now.

And it hasn't really panned out. >> But but I feel but I feel like I feel like as long as Bitcoin's not nuking I think these good alts like Hyperledger, Zcash, Pump, like they can continue to go and that's kind of where I think our focus should be on. And like most alts are just dead, right? They should just be be be not be touched but >> It's just hard to imagine that like BTC can run back the digital gold narrative for the third time running without well like kind of doing the opposite of what a digital gold would do.

Like during COVID Bitcoin nuked and then rallied. Uh the last hiking cycle Bitcoin nuked. This time when inflation has come down Bitcoin nuked. Now it's doing well that inflation's back a little. It just seems it's not really respecting that. So I don't know. It just seems hard to me that we can run that same narrative again and people will buy into it yet again after being burnt by it so many times and sort of been >> I disagree.

I disagree, sir. The all-time high correlation is hit between gold and Bitcoin. You can see this here. So we'll we'll we'll commentate posted this chart. All-time high correlation and Bloomberg is reporting that investors are now buying both together. They're not choosing one or the other. So let's bring these tweets up because I got to I got to bull people up again. Buy this dip right now. >> [laughter] >> But that's what we're saying, right?

We have been saying, right? Like we have been talking about this for years and I I like I largely agree to it in some regard but I don't know. It's hard to say it's panned out, right? I mean gold has been down >> for you, Justin? What what's really changed for you? The fact that it hasn't like performed exactly as you had expected over the past like 12 months? >> So nothing's really changed for me. I still believe in the thesis.

I just think it's a little early for a bear market for the bear market to be ending. Maybe I'm just following the Q4 bottom prophecy a little too hard but um you know that's what got me to sell at the end of last year, which I'm fortunate for and so I'm kind of just sticking to that. I would love to own Bitcoin um, again in size, but I just don't at the moment. I think it's too early and I think the upside is unclear. >> You're saying four-year cycle has to play according to the month-to-month plan? >> It's four-year cycle, but it's also that if the bottom is in and 60k-ish was the bottom, what more upside is here?

From last cycle, we went from 68k to 125k, which is a pretty small return. If we've had diminishing returns again, which we've always had in this space, what's the upside from 125k? Is it 185? And then is it really worth entering here at 82k for like maybe a 2x when I could look at tech, AI, >> I'd be so happy if we went to 180. You wouldn't you wouldn't believe it. >> 180, we're going to be it's going to be utopia. >> I will say that like if I can add something like most of the bullish thesis on in crypto over the past, let's say four years, is usually based in some financial narrative.

Like either VCs have entered like VC money's entered the space or it's been the ETF or it's been Dats or it's been just some like like financial rails reason. And I I I don't know if there's anything left on that front in terms of catalyst. So like really like the show me the money moment is like are people actually moving their money into Bitcoin so they can like escape their uh, you know, country or their capital or their currency.

Um, and until yeah, I guess that's that's like the catalyst, right? That's what we need to see. >> answer is no, right? But everyone's been perpetually trying to front Everyone's been trying to front run that for a long time now, right? So >> I agree with you, but like, you know, that's the open question. Are people going to like is people's money going to do that? >> Yeah, but but but speaking but speaking of, you know, I guess outside capital coming in, I think you know, we have someone uh, like a guest coming up that I think can help answer that question.

Uh, I think Say from FOMO is There you go. What's up? What's up, say? >> How we doing? >> I'm good. How are you? >> I'm all right. >> We're kind of sad We're kind of sad about the dump, but >> I think How are you doing? I actually just noticed that it was dumping as you guys were talking about it. So >> [laughter] >> By the end By the end of of the episode, we'll be we'll be back up, so don't even worry about it. Um Say, good to see you good to see you, brother.

Um You guys have been crushing it, I have to say. Um you know, when uh when when when you kind of started this out, I didn't know this was going to get so so big and we had a chart we were looking at backstage. Uh maybe you could tell us if this is real. Are these like volumes and and things happening real? Maybe we can bring this up. >> [laughter] >> But what is going on here? Like what is this? >> Yeah, so the charts are real.

In fact, I was telling Say that they're a little understated. I think they're probably all like anywhere from 20 to 40% lower. Um that's not Adam's fault. He does a good job of, you know, creating dashboards. We work with him on that, but I think a lot of it is just it's hard to collect all that on-chain data across six, seven chains. We have perps now as well. So, yeah, it's it's very real and it's uh we're in the thick of it, so super excited about it. >> We were talking um a second ago if there's new entrants into the space or if this is all existing players like signing up for FOMO and moving over from Phantom Pump Fun, etc. to using FOMO.

Do you think these are net new people coming into the space and um is that is that what you're seeing or is it all just the same folks playing the same game again? >> No, we 100% think it's net new people. There's there's a lot of um empirical data that we do to try to understand, you know, what are the users that are coming in, is this their first experience, and how do we kind of guide their process and user journey here?

A lot of this is like we do, you know, CSAT survey scores when people do customer support tickets. And if you would just take a look at, let's say we get 1,500 tickets a day, 1,400, maybe 1,450 up to 1,500 are usually people who just don't understand what's going on. And a lot of that is like a perp, a lot of it is, you know, maybe a bug, but essentially our goal is to create an application where you can trade things on chain without realizing you're on chain.

The only reason that FOMO feels like crypto when you open it is because of the asset names and the assets that you're trading, but our goal is to expand the pie and I would say we're adding about 40,000 new users a day from the App Store. I I don't really think there are 40,000 new people existing people every day that are discovering FOMO in the crypto space. >> How are you How are you sourcing these people? Is this Tik Tok?

Is this Instagram? Like where are these people coming from? >> Their media content machine is insane. >> Really? [laughter] >> It's either like pierce the normie sphere with a like this whole kimchi thing was like, you know, very very well done. >> What What was that? What was that? What was that? >> [laughter] >> Can we find that? >> There's I think Kimchi is a trader that went viral because he posted a collage of like, you know, his Rolex and this Maybach and these cool pictures and then ended up getting like a few million views and people have been clipping it everywhere on the internet.

He apparently made 40 mil on Trump. I don't know if that's true or not, but yeah, he's just everywhere and he was just seen with Gunna a couple of times and he's kind of reinforcing like traders a new celebrity. We don't actually work with him directly. I know he's a hot commodity these days, but yeah, just like the lifestyle stuff that I think people have always looked at to some extent and it's coming from traders now instead of like course sellers or, you know, vloggers or whatever. >> And And so like these are being posted on like like give me a little bit more deeper.

Like where exactly are are people finding this and how are they ending up on where FOMO's like, you know, so highly rated on the App Store? >> Yeah, so we started marketing to non-crypto people generally about July of last year. We started experimenting with UGC and trying to understand how do you get small creators to tell the story of FOMO, how what you can do, educate the people and just give them a sense of what's going on in the crypto markets generally.

So we started that at a very small scale and I think over the course of, let's say, the next 9 months it really blew up. We probably were uh able to do 50 million impressions a month across 100 creators. We manage this all in house, study the algorithm, understand what are people looking for. And now that's become a very small piece of our user growth where at the time we probably had about 50% of users referred from UGC creators.

Nowadays that number is probably closer to like 15% and maybe only 30% of lifetime users that are joining are actually attributed. So there's a lot more organic growth. There's actually a crazy uh or funny story of we were looking at Instagram and one of the um the people in our team get gets this paid ad about FOMO and we're like, "Oh wow, this is such a great ad. Like who did this? We should replicate it." And we look into it and it's like it's not even our guy.

This guy is just shilling his own referral link on his own paid ads on Instagram and he's crushing it. He has, you know, like 3 million impressions. There's a lot of like referrals coming in and we're just like, "Wow, he's >> So you're not spending You're not You're not spending too much money there on the on the marketing campaigns there on the UGC, right? Like what's the Do you have a big kind of cost that's associated with that or is it very cheap in terms of the numbers that we're seeing? >> I would say the bottleneck is not money.

It's actually talent and identifying talent. So it's like the creators but then also the content managers and we probably spend roughly 100 150k a month on this now. That's like >> little? >> Yes, it's not a lot It's not a lot at all. Like you can go sign one big name and pay that, right? So it's something that has worked really well, converts very well. >> I don't think you would You're spending way more than 150k on You're spending way more than 150k.

See, but that's like one element. There's like the KOLs, there's paid ads. Are you doing paid ads? >> We We just started So okay, so like to be completely candid is July we did about 150k in total growth spend. And in August this will ramp up. We're starting paid ads. We're doing more creator influence partnerships, but pretty much like anything that you see out today has been in this like 150k-ish category of budget. >> That's my part.

I'm spending 150k a month. >> You guys >> [laughter] >> marketing. There's no way. >> Well, >> Where do you do you think uh Fomo's headed? I mean, are you going to keep leading into the meme coin trading, or do you think there's some ceiling there? I mean, I know you guys have perps as well, but like what do you think the future of this um onboarding funnel is going to look like for non-crypto natives joining an app that uses crypto as underlying rails, but isn't a crypto app? >> Yeah, we want to essentially be the place where everybody can speculate on opinion publicly, right?

So, whether that's crypto, whether that's stocks, perps, prediction markets, yield, you know, anything that you can name where people can have a category um where they can speculate and then build an audience. That's our goal. I think like one of the things that we've been thinking about a lot is, okay, so you have 100 billion-dollar companies, which are Robinhood and Coinbase, right? These are people that are trading apps, brokerages, etc.

Then you have your, let's say, trillion-dollar companies, which are like the J.P. Morgans of the world, AUM game, all of it runs on them. And then you have your multi-trillion-dollar companies, which are the Metas and the Googles, and there's a social network and analytics and advertising and all these things. I think that for us, like that last category is what we're interested in turning into, where we want to be the canonical social graph finance.

And I think that that's something that nobody's really done, nobody's really tried, and I think as AI kind of commoditizes more and more content, it's going to be uh this like paradigm shift where more people are looking for something real, which is risk, right? Risk is going to be the only um atomic unit that is actually going to be able to stand the test of AI commoditization. And I think that that leads to a social graph where you have everything that's real, you can't just fake content, you can't just go viral, you have to go do the thing and do it publicly.

So, that's where we want to be, and I think it'll be the highest intent user base of any social graph that exists in the world. >> Yeah, cuz I'm I'm wondering like the existing user base, there must be it's kind of like eating itself, right? Like we know from the pump fund stats that over 90% of course lose money you trading pump fund assets. It's it's a negative sum game. Like so, how do you think about getting people to stay and not sort of just getting blown out on these random long-tail coins? >> Yeah, I think there's a number of things, right?

One is transparency. I think a big issue with like, let's say, the number you referenced is most of those coins are completely bundled. They're the same deployers over and over again just dumping at certain market cap levels and it's gotten to the point where it's obfuscated so well that you can't even tell. Um I think that somebody ran a re-poll of all the numbers here and it was like Polymarket is at 20%, uh FOMO is at 20%, and Hyperliquid is slightly higher.

I think that's about what you expect to see from um a trading app in general in profitability. I I imagine maybe Coinbase and Robinhood are higher because they have long-term holder times, but we want people to graduate in their user journey, right? You might come in to trade meme coins, but hopefully you discover Bitcoin. Hopefully you discover Nvidia. Hopefully you discover, you know, XYZ markets, and that market might just be I can earn 5% easily where my bank can't offer that.

So, you can do that via decentralized pools, and we want to educate the user and grow alongside them because like the important distinction here between us and most parties is we're not the house. We don't actually benefit if you lose money, so it's in our best interest that you actually are able to you know, have more money, be able to be more sustainable, and grow your wealth over time. >> And I got a question. I mean, I'm getting tens of DMs at the moment.

People asking me, in the future, does it make sense for you guys to have a a coin? How are you thinking about tokenizing this social graph idea? >> I think our plan is to become a publicly traded company. We want to actually, you know, IPO. We want to be in the face of the public market. I think with that comes a lot of trust, and it's going to be really hard for you to be this like social graph that's closed in, that's private, that doesn't actually allow people to meaningfully partake in the upside and discover the journey.

So, we look at a lot of companies that we really respect like, you know, Robinhood and Meta and so on and so forth, and I think there's there's very much a big value add in being in the public markets where, you know, any consumer who uses the app can actually uh benefit from it as well. >> Wow, that's a big vision. That's a big vision. Man, since we were having underground ramen 4 years ago in Tokyo, you guys have been growing up.

It's good to see. I love to hear it. But right now like I saw the the kind of chart with the different chains. It seems like it's quite distributed. I thought it was just going to be like Solana and Robinhood, but it's broken out. Like what's actually happening in the trenches? You guys have like the numbers. Like is it is cuz Solana was the only one last cycle that was, you know, having this activity, but obviously Robinhood's coming hot and then I see like I don't know BSC or what what exactly is going on out there? >> Yeah, I think what we've done is we've like created this idea that you trade on a certain chain during certain periods of times, right?

There's base season, and there's Solana season, and there's BNB season, and those are all completely segregated experiences where most people don't overlap into each of these things. Like you guys remember the meme where it was like the Pepe and the Ethereum going to Solana with a crying face, like now I have to go trade on Solana. And I think that that was like a very real thing where people just don't like to uproot their trading infrastructure and go find another place, you know, find a new wallet, export their keys, do all these things.

So, I think what FOMO has done is it's effectively created one platform where you can trade any asset in any any given day. Um so, you know, yesterday we had 110,000 traders on the application. 90,000 of those traded on Robinhood, 100,000 traded on Solana, maybe 60,000 traded on base, 80,000 on BNB. So, you're seeing the same users just trade across different coins because it's one experience where if you actually stare at the app, you can see what chains these coins are on, but to you it's just one coin.

It's just a coin that you can buy. There's holders, there's community, there's a social feed, and it's very, you know, seamless into one experience. Um it it's actually crazy because Robinhood chain was a fumble day one for us where we didn't integrate because we wanted to see if there was a reason to do so. And we missed out day one for the next 48 hours, we just got spam messages from all of our traders like where's Robinhood?

Where's Robinhood? Where's Robinhood? By day three, we were more than every other trading wallet combined times three. And today we are 90,000 of the 115,000 wallets that are trading on Robinhood chain. So you can actually see the powerful stickiness whereas most of these terminals have dropped off where they moved on. They've gone back to Solana. They've gone back to base. They've gone back to BNB. Whereas on FOMO, you have this experience where you don't need to pick.

You can do it all at the same time. >> Mhm. Yeah, I saw like Pump Fun is starting to try to copy you guys and get into like all the chains and you know, they're kind of looking at it similarly, I guess. >> I I want to I want to ask you say like I feel like one of the main advantages that why you've are sort of winning versus Pump Fun is because you've cracked the mobile side much better. And I mean, just from what I'm experiencing in my side is that like whoever wins the mobile side like wins like the marginal web two user.

Like people don't want to it's kind of like a mobile game, right? What like this type of this this like meme coin trading game is a mobile game and um yeah, like I've seen that on my side too. It's just that like whoever does the mobile side better just typically tends to win the consumer side. I'm curious if you have any thoughts on that. >> Yeah, I think that's right. I mean, mobile is where the world is headed, right?

We look at the data of web users, mobile users, and then people who do both. There's actually more of a category of people who do both web and mobile than there are web, which is an interesting stat. Maybe you can say like our web product is not where it needs to be yet. But we are definitely seeing, let's say, of the 40,000 new people a day like 39,000 of them are coming through mobile. So it's just where the world is headed where, you know, it's headed mobile.

I mean, Robinhood didn't even have a desktop app until like a year or two ago. So if you want to target the mass audiences, like chances are most of them don't really sit at a computer all day. But most of them do have phones. So I do think that that's a key thing that you need to get right, which is you need to actually get the long tail of the audience, which are mostly on mobile. >> And your app is is absolutely phenomenal, by the way.

I was talking before the show. I use it and it's so smooth. I like I don't even look at the fees cuz it's just so buttery smooth and it just works. >> Don't look [laughter] at the fees. Yeah, he is >> I really couldn't even tell you what they are. >> Let's increase the fees. Increase those fees. >> [laughter] >> No, that's great to hear, I mean, we we we actually do have the lowest fees in the market. We're half a basis half a percent versus most similar charge 1% and Coinbase, you know, if you're trading Bitcoin is an anomaly on Coinbase, you're paying 2 and 1/2%.

So, it is lower than most. >> Do you What do you think about meme coin trading as a mobile game? Do you Do you agree with that categorization or would do you view it as something bigger or different? >> I think that that is one way to look at it. If you kind of like zoom out, almost everything in life is a game. So, if that's the mindset that I know a lot of traders take. Like, I don't know how you view, you know, your trading journey if it's a game or if it's just something where there's numbers on a screen and there's a leaderboard.

But, I think that it is something that can be helpful because, you know, if if you treat it too seriously and every dollar matters and you can't detach yourself from the money and the P&L and the outcomes, then it can be dangerous pretty quickly. So, I think in a lot of ways it's not just meme coin trading, but I think all trading to some extent is like a game of of some sort and you're keeping score by P&L and, you know, win loss and such and such. >> Let's go back to that like image with with that live app.

I just curious cuz I haven't used it. Like, do people choose what they want to buy based on like trending or or like what what are they usually kind of seeing top of the screen that makes them decide or do they look at like what the top guy >> If you go to the feed tab, which I think you were just on, like, this is pretty much like the It's probably a little noisy for most people. Um, it's just activity that's happening, people buying and selling PCs.

You can actually filter this just to see certain things, whether it's certain people or certain sizes or even just like thoughts. So, you can imagine you just click like thesis, for example, then you know, most of this is going to be very noisy, but you can just read why are people buying these things? What are their thoughts? And there really hasn't been a place where you've been able to do this. >> There's a good reason.

He said the duck army is growing, you know, >> [laughter] >> if I knew that, then of course, you know, it makes sense to buy the the micro duck 14,000 market cap. >> Yeah. >> Or whatever. >> [laughter] >> The BitMEX the BitMEX troll box of 2026. >> Except there's a position attached. So, it's like if somebody has a million dollar position, you care about their thoughts a little bit more than you know, somebody who has a $4 position, which I think a lot of people have been scared to be opinionated by.

So, you can actually filter by different sizes, just my friends, and it's you know, it's your world to how you want to filter it. >> To be to be fair, BitMEX you could always do {slash} I don't know, size or something and it would give you your you know, keep it optionally, but this makes sense. >> Yeah, variation this is something we're thinking about too of like how do we craft a new and unique experience specifically for mobile cuz it does feel like desktop is more of a pro experience, but I think you guys really nailed it here with showing like what your friends, what people that you're following or your followers are trading and having the proof attached to the positions is really helpful.

I've seen like a lot of um a lot of interesting takes on Twitter about that that like you're kind of washing out the low tier influencers that are just shilling garbage, not really buying it or buying it and losing money and it's kind of getting the cream to rise to the to the top a bit more. Um so, I think that's pretty cool. >> 100% We want to create transparency. I think crypto itself has a pretty bad reputation, especially with everybody, you know, trying to sell their own courses and scam and paid groups and such and we want to be able to show you the results if if you're a new user trying to navigate the space. >> Amazing stuff.

I mean, uh let's um let's give you props. There's, you know, you guys got that dog in you. I saw some posts by Tensor and Tensor had a similar app idea they were saying, and they you know, they launched it and it did okay, but it's sort of like the same thing as Morfo, where like there were a lot of lending markets trying to do similar things, but it just requires a team to be like fully dedicated and just go all in and kind of uh you know, actually see the outcome, and then and then you get you know, you you get a big winning outcome.

So, hope you guys can um can keep crushing like this. It's it's amazing to watch the the the growth. >> Um yeah. And I I feel like also like when when whenever the the the monthly user count just like start going parabolic, that's also like when Pump also start pumping, too. Uh so, I guess it's also you know, beneficial in a way where >> Is this a symbiotic relationship? >> Is this Coke and Pepsi? What what's the situation? >> Coke and Pepsi, bro. >> Oh, Pump fun and FOMO? >> Yeah. >> Yeah, I mean >> Is this a symbiotic What What do you think?

Is it a symbiotic relationship, or do you think >> I think Pump's trying to build >> the same app, man. They're trying to build the same app. [laughter] >> FOMO just figured it out better, I think. >> Can you both Can you both be successful? That's the question. Can you guys both be successful? >> I think it depends on what you mean by success. Um I think that competition is generally good, and you know, we we actually love it.

We we think that it's actually a great place to be where other people are trying to enter the same space, cuz it means that there's meaningful product market fit, and there's more to kind of innovate on accelerate. So, yeah, it's to be seen. I mean, I think they built a really good launchpad. I think that that's like a core business of theirs, and we'll we'll see how things go, but you know, we're focused on the things right in front of us. >> Incredible Incredible answer.

Bullish. >> Yes, PR trained. PR trained. >> So PR trained. Let's go, Stae. Let's go. Cool. Thank Thanks for coming on, bro. Uh good to see you again. >> For sure. Our time. Thanks for having me. >> Bye-bye. >> Yeah. Peace. >> Wow, very well spoken. >> That was insightful. Great guy. Great guy. >> It's the same trend going on in every industry, I've realized after this. >> What What What Like can you can you can you double click on that, Vicky? >> Okay, so so I launched the I don't want to I don't know if it's my turn yet, so we can wait. >> Chill, chill, go. >> No, yeah, go, go, go, come on. >> Okay, so yeah, I launched this Pokémon gotcha 2 months ago, right?

Like it was very like a whim on a whim decision. I like built it in like maybe a month and a half. I just wanted to like see what I could do with AI tools and anyway, um I I saw these crypto gotchas making money and then when I started launching it's kind of like the top of the market. And then I realized that like the crypto gotchas are making like a tenth of what the mobile app gotchas are making. They're just printing money hand over fist.

Like a billion dollars a year type uh deal. And they don't even have a web product. They're just just like all all the new customers are are like bringing like sort of what you've built financially in the crypto side and then packaging it in a mobile app for you know, the rest of the world. It is is the is the trend I've seen in this industry and now I'm seeing it validated in the meme coin industry. Like pump failing versus FOMO because pump you know, focusing more on the web strategy versus FOMO just going straight for mobile is is you know, another example of that.

Um yeah, yeah, that's that's where like the new cohort of users to double click on your point, Justin, is is coming from. It's coming from mobile. It's coming from the app store. >> Yeah, and I heard like the FOMO users like they don't even know that like which chain like would know which coins are chained on and whatnot, so >> No, and and people >> Yeah, go ahead. >> You're competing like those guys are playing Candy Crush, right?

And then Candy Crush is making billion dollars a year. When you think about crypto, you can actually [laughter] make money on it. It's like a really fun game if you think about it. The social element trading. You just like strip like there actually is no price discovery being made on technological assets. That's just too high IQ for the mobile users. They just want they need meme coins. Just like the dumbed-down version of it packaged into a mobile app and it's like a funner game than Candy Crush.

And they're happy to put in billions of dollars a year and do that's the thesis. >> The duck army is growing. Thank you. >> [laughter] >> Yeah. >> So, we got uh Chow here as well joining us. Um I don't know if we can get him on. >> Yo, long time no see, Chow. >> Yeah, what up? >> Recurring guest. >> Wow. >> Yeah. >> And Chow, I feel like you went into sort of uh pseudo into hiding for the crypto bear market. I know um your accelerator has been doing really well, but um you haven't posted about crypto much in the past couple weeks.

It looks like you're you're back on board for a new bull market potentially. Is that right? >> actually uh on a sabbatical for a couple months and uh and it was summer, so I was playing with my kids like every day. And it just so turns out that um school is starting and bull market is back. It's a perfect timing. >> Do you think it's back for real? It's not just uh >> I uh >> bear market high? >> It doesn't feel like uh dead cat bounce.

It It feels to me like uh the start of a bull market. >> Yeah, same. Yeah. It's good. It's good. If you know, people are 50/50 and you know, there's our source of the marginal buyer. >> Yeah. >> What have you guys been like um you know, kind of working on the project side? Is it Is like a bunch of more AI-related type of things or what's being built these days? >> I haven't caught up with my team yet, but it seems to me that >> [laughter] >> I'm not back to work yet.

Uh but but yeah, we're doing some AI stuff, some stable coin stuff. And social trading, of course. >> Okay. Everyone's getting into the social trading. >> Yeah. >> Um >> What are you most excited about from these cohorts? Do you have something that you're like, "Okay, when I when I get back to work, this is the first thing I'm going to start focusing on." >> Um to be honest, I I haven't really thought about crypto very much except for Zcash.

Uh I can't really tell you what I'm excited about. >> All right, let's talk Zcash. Let's go let's go let's go straight to the you know nothing else. >> I I think Zcash is just the simplest it's the clearest the cleanest thesis. Compared to everything else I see in crypto. >> I I have the Oh sorry sorry you finish your thought. >> No go ahead go ahead. I mean the the the thesis everyone knows what what the thesis is is is private it's quantum resistant.

But more importantly I think the thesis has never really changed over the last 10 years. So like I've been following Zcash for since the beginning. 2016-ish. But I never went big. Because the charts just look like But now if you look at the chart the long-term chart has really dramatically changed. So you really want the the price action to confirm your your fundamental thesis. I think that's what's happening right now.

Um So >> Let's bring up a chart. We got to if we're talking charts we should we should look No [laughter] no no. Justin did a log did a make it log. That makes that makes it Yeah. Wait what okay okay. >> The chart is basically three cup and handles in inside like it's one giant cup and handle within another cup and handle within another cup and handle. I think the future is cup and handles it's the perfect chart. >> My chart originally didn't go far back enough I had to switch charts for Taiki.

No that's the same chart but yeah like I mean I feel like you don't want to fade a 10-year distribution then like an all-time high breakout right especially when the narrative is around privacy there's the ETF now quantum I think >> I think the biggest thing that that might have happened in the last 5 years is I don't know I don't know this for a fact but I think the early investors and team uh distributed like they sold what what what they wanted to sell.

And at the same time the mining rewards also uh decreased quite a bit. Um and now finally the buying pressure outweighs outweighs the uh distribution the supply. >> I mean even in this juncture around 800 you know this this really big whale I think it was a couple days ago just bridged 50 million worth of Zcash sold it via hyper liquid spot and it really didn't do too much to it you know to to the price I guess. That's a really constructive sign for me that there's probably continuation even today it's behaving quite well so. >> Yeah. >> Yeah Justin if you can share my screen child had this tweet around I guess you know I guess venture slash liquid investing heuristic when the smartest people you know are polarized on asset some bullish others convinced it won't work you just don't overthink and smash the buy button.

So child can you kind of extrapolate >> Yeah this basically is Zcash coded like I I was actually talking about Zcash without saying Zcash. >> Oh I know I know. >> [laughter] >> That's why I want you to talk about it. >> So I I I'm long Zcash I think it's going to do really well Taiki's convinced me of this I'm kind of pulled up on it but I will say like it does strike me as we're doing the crypto thing again where we kind of like project onto the world what we think the world's going to want and front run that buying.

We were talking about before you joined how the industry I think did that with Bitcoin and it seems like again I think this is probably going to play out for Zcash to the positive side but it seems like we're projecting this like privacy narrative onto Zcash that it will be useful by other people in the future. But like today people aren't using it or have a need for it for its intended purpose. I mean do you think there's any truth to that or do you think it's it's different this time? >> I think that's absolutely right but but that's also the case with uh that's just true in general with assets that don't have cash flow, right?

Like you have to project what what the world wants to you know, what the world wants in into the future. >> But I guess what I'm saying is like we've thought that with Bitcoin and it's like not yet been true for Bitcoin where like people realistically are not using it as a store of value or a hedge against the dollar or like their digital gold, but we're projecting that people will in the future that aren't us, right? >> I definitely use that as a store of value.

Like it's it's uh >> It's a very volatile >> Yeah, it's a very volatile, but it gives me peace of mind in the sense that if my bank account gets shut down, I have something to rely on, right? >> true. >> Yeah. >> Um you don't want to chat like >> So sorry, Chad. Finish your thought. >> Uh Zcash is a much more emergent uh store of value, meaning like it it really is not really a store store value yet. >> Yeah, it's much more early. >> And if you share my screen, Justin, people are using it, right?

Cuz I think I'm going to share like these percent of Zcash in the in the shielded pool. And this is like an actual objective way to measure people literally buying Zec, you know, bringing it to the chain and like putting in the shielded pool. Um and I feel like as long as this percentage or this metric is going up and like, you know, you you can't refute the fact that yeah, like no one uses thing for like eight years, nine years, and suddenly people are using it.

And you know, whether or not like you're you'll use it is irrelevant. Like the market, you know, is telling us that yeah, like it's important. And I feel like that's a really important signal. And I feel like it's shouldn't be faded. >> Is there any other like digital store of value apart from Bitcoin that makes sense at this point? I mean, I think all the L1 tokens that tried to ultra sound money this and that, they just, you know, the like Ethereum for example, which we've talked about for hundreds plus episodes, it just didn't it just was too much going on.

Like, you know, it it's you know, this one is just clean. It just says, "Look, we're not as early as Bitcoin or as distributed as Bitcoin, but we are quantum resistant. We're going to be a a good fail safe if anything happens to Bitcoin. We have this additional privacy. And, you know, obviously that the kind of like the the hack, whatever, you know, weird hack that that happened was was a bit of a shakeout, but um yeah, it Selene and me and Dem have been talking about uh Zcash being like the first thing that would run in a in a kind of like resurgence and seems like it was the case.

And I do expect like it's going to trade a lot like Bitcoin and kind of like the early days, like 2015, 2016 days, where because it doesn't really have cash flows, because it's just going to be like a bit of like speculation, it's going to overshoot both ways. You'll be able to like really trade ranges. It's going to be a good trading asset as well, which I think will keep interest on it, because it will be such a good asset for range traders to to uh to participate in instead of just you know, the people that just buy and put it into the shielded pool.

So, um it's definitely interesting asset. >> Yeah, I think you guys are also missing like the best part about Zcash. Like I think the privacy narrative is interesting, but I think what's really the tailwind for Zcash this cycle is like everyone knows you're late to Bitcoin now, but you're not late to Zcash and it's got the same exact supply count as Bitcoin at 1% or so of the price. And so, like you could you can't get enough 100x on Bitcoin anymore, but you can theoretically on Zcash.

So, I think it just makes it a lot more attractive for new people, people that haven't made it yet, people that want to speculate on privacy. It's got a lot of things going for it. >> The one thing that's missing in terms of this idea of money trade, I agree that there's Bitcoin, there's going to be private money, which is Zcash. There has to be someone that pulls off the AI money idea well. You know, BitTensor really has tried to do uh something there, but it's really not been able to succeed.

I think it's over spending incentives. It's become overly gamified over the past few years, and it's gotten past so many, uh, halving events that at this point the incentives for really good subnets, uh, they're just not enough anymore to attract good talent. I think someone that takes advantage of these principles and makes some kind of form of AI money, uh, it is going to be is going to be the third kind of horse in the in in this race.

I really like this idea of a of a basket of Bitcoin, you know, private money, AI money, whatever that is, and probably most money will be made in this AI money category, I think, at this point. >> Zcash is backed by Mythos. It's AI money. >> Right. Right. >> That's just That's That's That's a really strong That's a really strong part of the narrative, too. >> Yeah. One thing is like I hope people like like Chow have, uh, taken advantage of the the quiet markets to get, you know, the rest of their life a bit in balance cuz when when things get crazy, I think we're all just living off the screen, and it's it's a bit of a 24/7.

Um, I've talked about my kind of health push since last year, and I think a lot of people have followed me. You know, I meet a lot of people that tell me that they've used the bear market for, uh, for health maxing, and it's good to hear. Um, Justin, have you have you done anything, or what have you been doing? >> Oh, yeah, of course. Um, no, I've been been testing out some peptides. I had, um, I had my wedding this summer, which was phenomenal, followed by my honeymoon.

Actually, I won't say who, but one person on this podcast right now was invited to the wedding, was going to come and then flaked last minute, which, uh, which stings and hurts. But, uh, yeah, I got to try the peptides before that. I think they're, you know, they're incredible. >> [laughter] >> It's me. >> Don't help me with this to get party. >> Did you have a good reason for flaking? You have a good reason for flaking, Tak?

You or no? >> Well, it was like right after my honeymoon and I just >> Okay. So, Ali was tired. >> He was too relaxed. He was too relaxed at the time. >> Yeah, I was I was too sad with crypto prices, but >> Yeah, so everyone's been honeymooning during the the bear. That's also very good use of it as well. >> Yeah, and chill with the family. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's great. I think but yeah, no, I mean you got to be health maxing.

Like I was you know, I don't think I was ever away, but like trimming down fat, trying to get abs back again, which is nice. But yeah, like you got to focus on your health. And then you know, variational has been obviously consuming a ton of time. >> Let's see the abs. >> Uh they're not They haven't been out in 4 months. They'll be back. >> Where's the abs? >> [laughter] >> Wash board abs. >> Yeah. >> So, I I >> to lately? >> Oh, yeah.

Let's hear about Tiki first. No, let's hear about Tiki first. >> Oh, what? >> Yeah, yeah. What have you been up to like during the bear, bro? Yeah. >> Um I just been building I've been building this thing. It's been like it feels >> Building. >> going back to like It feels like I'm like a breeding a a digital 7-Eleven, you know? I'm just like catching fraud [laughter] and doing support tickets and like you know, shipping out card like $5 Pokémon cards.

It's Yeah, it's been >> Why Why'd you switch to building? Cuz I'll never forget we were at a meet up I think with Tiki and you were like ah dude, I tried building before trading and it's like the feedback loop is really bad. Like you don't figure out on like you don't get any feedback from the market till 6 months a year later. It's slower. You were doing really well trading. Like what Why'd you decide to start building again? >> Yeah, um so that's how I actually got into crypto.

I uh I was building a DeFi protocol and that's why I learned all about crypto. >> The Solana DEX, right? >> Uh yeah, it was like in 2021, 2022 and then that kind of like black pilled me a little bit because that was like right when crypto just like went down 80% and then yeah crypto like trading was just a lot more like instant feedback and to be honest with you like trading in 2023, 2024 and partly in 2025 it was just like so much more rewarding and fun and so much more opportunity.

But I do think that like now that the like AI tools have made building so easy like I'm able to just like be like a professional level let's say like developer or like a advertiser or like an animator or whatever just in like a few days. So I think the feedback loop and building is like almost been gamified and casinofied which is what I think like you know these like token sellers from these AI firms it really is kind of like a little casino same with like the like the paid ads thing is like meta has its own little casino as well.

And yeah I mean it feels like the the similar level of feedback loop and uh >> Let them play Candy Crush. >> [laughter] >> I feel like so you know sometimes I'm just like you know like I'm coding and stuff and I'll just like randomly get my like tokens refreshed and then I'll see like open AI researchers like follow me and I'm like bro are they like observing me work like a little ant in an ant colony? You know what I mean?

Like just like I am to my users like there's like different layers of this sort of like thing going on but yeah yeah it's it's been it's been fun building in this like new age. >> Ciao like where do you think like the alpha lies if everyone's able to spin up an app or a website or you know like a platform in >> [snorts] >> you know few days of uh pipe coding? Is it just going to be like execution or is it going to be like ideas or like what if we kind of think it through um you know we don't need a thousand platforms of the same thing so what's going to happen? >> I mean what what mattered before still matters today.

Uh everything you just mentioned, execution, idea, go-to-market. The only thing that changes maybe right now you like you can really start something new as as a one-person team and you don't need a dedicated developer. So, I've been building as well since since January and I really feel I feel, you know, the you know, the power of the latest tools. >> It's kind of like funny, right? Cuz on the one hand like developers have so much more ability to create stuff.

Like they can 10x their output. But then you need less developers because, you know, people can just kind of do it themselves or you know, they can just get one guy to, you know, do everything instead of have a whole team. >> Yeah. >> So, is this bullish developers, developers, developers or bearish? Like it's hard to know. >> I think for big tech it's bearish. It's bearish engineers at Facebook, Meta, etc. Cuz they actually need They don't have that many good ideas and they need far fewer developers. >> Yeah. >> Um it's probably bullish for developers in like specific verticals.

Like in banks, um uh health science, you know, hospitals or whatever, right? Like now they can hire developers a lot more cheaply and more effectively. And it's >> it's bullish for for people that have agency in general and developers are really the ones that can have the power and utilize this these tools the best. If you have agency wherever you are and you have the ability to build something yourself or um you know, be trusted with the project wherever you are, then you're probably going to do really well.

It's bullish for them. >> It's definitely bullish for people who have good ideas and have a lot of agency but didn't have the the technical chops before. >> I remember when I first went to move to the Bay Area, you know, people were talking about these 100x developers at the time. Like that was the the thing, you know, whatever 10, 20 years ago. And now it feels like you you're getting like some thousand X developers that are just able to just get agents and just create incredible stuff.

And it feels to me that the it's like if you went from playing basketball with like seven people on the court and now it's like a three-on-three and you don't need that many people and like the replacement level value, if someone is not really above replacement value, it kind of drops off a lot. But if you are still like, you know, a superstar, then it matters even more because like there's less people on the pitch. Um and it feels like that's just going to keep continuing where the water level is rising because of AI really being able to do like a 99th percentile job for stuff that if you're in that top 1% tile, you're going to you do ex- incredibly well even compared to the past.

And if you're in that like, you know, 80-90th percentile, you're going to start feeling the pressure. >> Yeah, the permanent war. >> It's like the it's redefined It's not just like, oh, everyone who's top 1% tile suddenly gets buffed. It's it almost like redefines what it means to be top 1% tile because I do know a lot of developers that were like, you know, let's say 5 years ago they were like some of the best developers I've ever known, but like they aren't really good at putting their thoughts into words and they aren't really good at like sort of managing like their time and like picking the right thing to do.

They're just like really cracked at like, you know, writing code. And and those people are like not as buffed by AI. So now that like they went from like 1% tile to like 10% tile developer. >> I think there will be basically only two types of developers uh in the future. One is those who actually build products, who understand the customer really really well. And we can design stuff, design products. So that's basically the the app layer developer.

And then there's like the super deep infra developer. Like that build infra for for uh the app developers. And everything every everyone else in between is basically obsolete. >> Well, I think he's saying like the you know, the Pokémon attributes that are make you like an elite Pokémon now are different than they used to be and I hear a lot like you know, now like words like taste. You didn't used to hear about taste a few years ago.

Now these are just saying like you know, you need taste and aesthetics and like all this other stuff now seems to come out of the bay. >> Yeah, I mean I view it as like it's like a vector, right? Vector has magnitude and then it has a direction. And like magnitude is agency and taste is just pointing the vector in the right place. So yeah, like magnitude has been kind of nerfed like AI tools can help you scale magnitude.

It's just like can you point the vector yeah, vector in the right direction that matters. It gets buffed essentially. But yeah, there there are plenty of people it's like you look at them it's like okay, you're a you're a magnitude guy or you're a you're a vector pointing guy, you know? The ideas guy or like the the labor sort of >> [laughter] >> and the labors have been nerfed. >> I got some looking at the comments a bit.

Someone's saying Joey tell them about the impromptu London meet up. Yeah, I just like was in London. I thought like let me just like see like who's around like immediately. So I just said you know, who's in Mayfair and um I don't know I got like 10 DMs and I just told everyone to come to a Joe and the Juice. We had a ginger shot and >> Joe and the Juice. >> Uh yeah. >> Their sandwiches are phenomenal. >> [laughter] >> Um but it was super cool.

I'm kind of like you know, obviously have to be safe with security and stuff, but sometimes like these impromptu kind of just meeting you know, kind of bring bring the internet closer where you just actually seeing some of the people that are are you know, out there and and looking at stuff and I've had I've had a bunch of like funny interactions with with these kind of IRL things. I remember I was last last summer I was with Jing Tao.

I don't know if you guys know Jing Tao. >> Oh god. >> He's like known >> Yes, of course. >> He's known in the trenches. He's like a proper DJ and hero, but uh I would say like, you know, smaller profile than than me. We're eating at a Mexican restaurant at the Arya. And the waiter comes up, some crypto crypto like fanboy. And he's like losing his mind. He's like, "Oh my god, Jingtou." And I'm like next to him and Jingtou is like, "Do you know who this is?" He's like, "Oh, Jingtou, Jingtou." And then like I thought it was like pretty funny.

And then now I know how he felt. Last week I'm like, uh randomly just met Jack Dorsey at some event and we're like walking down the street. Some guy comes up, recognizes me. I'm literally next to Jack Dorsey, who's a very recognizable face. Like it's not like you don't know. And he's like, "Oh my god." And then he's like, I'm like, "Okay, cool." Like what's [laughter] going on? >> That must have felt nice, Jordin. That's cool. >> No, it's just it was like very confusing.

It's like the internet's a really weird place. By the way, shout out to Jack. He's uh I never met him before. He he is one of the coolest people. Um What what a beast, that guy. >> You just status mogged Jack Dorsey? >> Yeah, I did. I told I we were laughing about it after. He's like so chill. >> No, you You status mogged Jack Dorsey and Jingtou status mogged you. So by the transitive property, Jingtou >> [laughter] >> Yeah, yeah.

Um >> That only makes sense. >> But otherwise, guys, like, you know, health health-wise, I do want to talk a little bit about it. I I've been pushing hard. Um I was at sort of 26 to 27% body fat about a year ago. Um over KBW, which was almost a year ago, I was like my my cortisol was like my eyes were twitching. I couldn't sleep. My nerves were shot. And it wasn't like things were [snorts] going bad. Like it was, you know, that was when things were still in a bull market and it was more like I was just overwhelmed by the amount of things there were to do and just trying to push hard.

Um I had like a Dim was with me. I was having like a I felt like a cardiac arrest episode. Like I like I went to the Korean hospital. I couldn't even speak the language. I was just like, "I can't feel my arm. I don't know what the going on." They did all these tests on me and their English is terrible. They came back and the guy's like, "Oh, yeah, like your your platelets are broken." And Dim was like, you know, translating it and he's like, "Oh, Is this like internal or external?

Like what what blood is broken?" And thankfully it was external. It was like my blood sample had gotten messed up. It wasn't like in my body. But needless to say, that day was was a bit of a wake-up call and I posted a little bit about my my weight loss bet. I had like a bet with poker player. I had to get down to 20% which I did very quickly. I bounced around 20% for a few months and then I did one more push and this summer I got to 14% which is it's quite a big change and I wouldn't normally do this but I'll I'll share like a topless photo. >> [laughter] >> Oh my god. >> Let's go.

He's feeling himself. >> [laughter] >> Do you want to send it to our chat so I >> I put it I put it in the chat. So >> All right. >> I I've done I've done my blood work before and after. Um >> Oh my god. >> My my my blood work is pretty good. So my inflammation everything is like way down. Um And I feel like I've gained 10 IQ points. I don't know like if it's just that or like something else going on but Um Yeah, [laughter] we're much leaner much leaner than we were a year ago. >> Do you have a before shot? >> I well well, I mean, maybe I do but >> [laughter] >> What's that? >> How much are you sleeping now? >> Sleep is like the last thing I knew was always going to be the hardest one.

Um I would say like better, but uh maybe average like 6 and a quarter before it was maybe like 5 and a half. I need to get to seven, so I'm halfway there. >> Okay. Okay. >> Yeah. >> You guys know what will make the biggest difference to my sleep? >> Oh. >> It is not using sleep tracker. >> Really? Why? >> Really? >> It gives me so much stress. >> Interesting. >> Do you have an eight sleep? >> Uh no. I don't have Like I I actually tried that, but I don't know.

I just uh I don't I don't do anything special for my sleep anymore except for like just a super dark room and and not using a smartphone before going to bed. >> Temperature. Temperature like you you can cooler. It's matters a lot. I've been focusing on that and like just taking glycine before bed reduces your temperature. >> [laughter] >> Yeah, that that is true. That is true. >> Somebody commented not not holding ETH also helps with sleep and that's >> I can confirm. >> Yeah, we can all confirm.

Yeah, um >> So nobody holds ETH now? >> I I don't hold any ETH. >> Fiki is super long ETH, I think. >> [laughter] >> Wait, actually? >> No, no. Fiki, what's your positioning right now? Someone asked in the chat and I wanted to call back to it. Is it just S&P 500 right now, ETFs or >> It's the treasury bills and Pokémon cards. >> Really? >> barbell. The barbell. >> How about like sports memorabilia? I know Hedgehog's really into that stuff.

What do you think about it? >> Yeah, I think it's another I think it's another expression of it. >> Yeah. >> So you're Are you hedged on Is there any way to hedge your Pokémon card holdings or you just have the raw exposure on? >> There is a way you can hedge it. I just have the raw I mean it's like I have like three million bucks. It's not like that big of a position, but like you could What you could do is you could just like launch a token and then just be like, "Oh, you guys own a percentage of the cards.

So that way you don't hold any like notional directional exposure to the cards." >> Let's watch that right now. Let's go. >> you can you can also you can also wait until it goes to a premium and then sell more coins and then buy more Pokémon cards. >> Yeah, you can like launch like a little dash. >> A dash. >> Exactly. But I want the exposure to the I want the exposure to the cards, so I'm not doing that. >> Do you have any PSA 10 first edition shadowless Charizards? >> Um I think those are like 600 grand, so no. >> Hm. >> I don't. >> What do you think of the What What do you think of the cards token?

I know there's there's like a lot of attention on that, but I'm not sure how real the like the numbers >> I don't want to like I don't want to like speak badly about any token in particular, but like I I'm just bearish [laughter] on I've always been bearish all and any tokens. So that's just my answer. [laughter] I just think they're overvalued. Every token is a >> All right. >> Except for the ones that I have investments in, obviously. >> Okay. >> [laughter] >> Until you Until you say >> Until I Until I vest, correct. >> Tokens Tokens are bad.

I will not support tokens. But if I have the token, I will defend it. >> [laughter] >> Jordi, what about what about your position? I think we've all kind of shared ours, but I'm curious of you I know you have obviously Bitcoin would be one of them, but anything else you're looking at that we haven't talked about yet? >> Yeah, core position is certainly Bitcoin. A lot of Bitcoin. Um >> [clears throat] >> I have bits and pieces of other stuff.

Still have some HYPE. You know, we unstaked our um HYPE from the Dream Cash vault, and still have most of it. Definitely have been selling some, you know, as it's kind of ripped so hard, but still long, although it feels like at this point the P ratio is just getting [snorts] a little bit way too expanded, and it's more just the dad buying that you want to hold on for, but I don't think it's too sustainable. I saw that Hyena announced um today that they're also shutting down their validator.

Um anyone who tried anything without a USDC stablecoin basically just kind of ran into the wall once they enshrined USDC. And it does feel like um you know, I got a bit of heat from the the hype retards for uh talking about how like we should have some understanding of what exactly is the relationship between um Tradewxyz, which is doing all the RWA stuff, and the Hyperliquid ecosystem. Obviously it's symbiotic in some way, like they're buying hype.

They're doing something that is, you know, um aligned. It just hasn't been announced what that is. They're meanwhile, you know, there was a big story whether they they were raising a round with Paradigm or not, and I think Bloomberg just reported that like everyone knows they already have done one. I don't know if the second one happened. You know, Kobe was saying that there's zero chance that they were negotiating, but they've already done one, so it's not like it matters so much if they're doing more.

The point is there are equity holders of Tradewxyz. XYZ is getting a lot of the fees, and in fact like, you know, as they're starting to like reduce growth mode fees, they're probably going to be a large part of the fees that go to Hyperliquid um volume. As a hype holder, which I still am, do I not deserve to understand if like these fees are in any ways going to be going back into hype or not? And I understand there was like legal reasons not to talk about these things, but surely like for what is an $80 billion FTV asset, it makes sense to ask like a a normal question of just like if all the growth is in RWAs, are the token holders going to be getting it, and what's the what's the deal, which I think is a very basic investor question, but apparently that pissed off CBBFE or whatever this this guy is. >> You're rage baiting so hard. >> [laughter] >> Yeah, yeah.

I feel like I feel like Trade XYZ is very hyper aligned, so I think the market thinks it'll be aligned, but yeah, I'm not sure. >> They're they're aligned, but what does that mean? Like like are they going to buy hype and burn it? Are they going to buy it and give it to their employees? Like like it's so it's sort of like matters a lot, and it just feels like the asset is too big not to have some sort of disclosure because yes, they've done a good job with some of the insider trading.

I saw somebody posted that, you know, like the when the Circle announcement came out, the chart didn't look like it was being front run. It sort of just got announced, and you know, um they have done a good job of that, but still like for for how big this asset is and there's public companies holding a ton of it and buying it, this just seems like such a fundamental information to have. So, I guess, you know, people don't want questions asked when they're holding a bag. >> Yeah, always get the fud your bags. >> Yeah, what else we holding?

Let's see what else we holding. Let's see. >> I'll [laughter] get to that. Yeah, we'll wait for >> No, no, no. Go go ahead, Chow. I'll I'll look at our holdings. >> This is like what's in your what's in your purse, but for men. >> [laughter] >> I have some I have some NEAR. I just so we have NEAR. It's a good price for NEAR. >> I mean, I'd still say that's a good UGC format for for TikTok. >> What's [laughter] in your purse? >> What's in your portfolio, Tommy? >> It's not people on the street. >> We we [snorts] we have NEAR.

We have GRASS. Like some of these AI related coins with decent fundamentals, I feel like should do better than current price. Um >> If you're if you're going to buy AI related tokens, why don't you just buy AI stocks? Why don't you just buy the real thing? We have We have a We have a growing venture portfolio of that stuff and I've just been kind of throwing tickets into all of the rounds of all this stuff and just hoping for the best.

So, we have that side of exposure, but you know, tokens are so much easier to get out and in. You know, how am I going to get out of my tronic? Like I don't know how I'm getting it out of that stuff. If you want some, it's in a double layer SPV that Andrew Kang needs to transfer or something. So, if you want some, let me know. I'll I'll hook you up. So, I think they're trying to raise a 10 or they raised a 10. They're going for 10.

They're going for 10 in Q4. Going for 10. It's a 6X. Congrats. No, it's a 6X if you get out. So, >> [laughter] >> That's why you launch an SPV on the SPV. You sell that to the next to the You tokenize it. Yeah, yeah. All right. What What about you, Chad? What are you What are you holding other than I guess Zcash and I guess Pump. You You like Pump, I'm assuming. Bitcoin and and and Zcash. Oh, okay. Alliance holds a bunch of things, right?

Including Pump, but on my PA it's just Bitcoin and Zcash. Wow. Just trying to keep everything simple. Nice. On the on the crypto side, I hold a lot of stocks, but I'm I'm not like I don't only hold few assets, but crypto side is only two. What How big is your stocks side versus your crypto side? My stocks side is probably or the ratio is probably 80/20 or maybe 70/30 ish. Oh, wow. So, it's mostly stocks. Yeah. And then on the stocks side How how could you do anything else?

I mean >> [laughter] >> Yeah. >> Hey man, we have Digens watching Justin. >> This is a crypto podcast or >> Yeah, yeah. I I'm I'm more of a crypto >> This industry can go down I mean you remember 1010 the industry can go down 50% in a day for no reason. >> This is the definition of fear mongering by Justin on this episode. >> [laughter] >> Yeah, this is the bottom signal. [clears throat] This is the bottom signal. >> I've got great exposure.

I never sold my lit air drop by the way. I wanted to call that out. I still am holding 80% of my lit air drop. I sold a little bit [laughter] at >> I just don't know if that's like >> I sold a little bit >> That's not a I don't think that's like an incredible flex, but now it's good. >> [laughter] >> But like if you want to I believe in when I'm there I'm there, you know. >> He's not a dumper, okay? >> [laughter] >> He's the whole He's the holder you want. >> And then and he tax optimized.

He tax optimized as well. You told us that >> Yes, I tax loss harvested at the bottom at $1 and I now own a quite a bit of spot Zcash because I couldn't have Taiki get all the P&L for the Steady Lads team, so had to join him. >> It's It's okay. I will >> I mean on a risk adjusted basis my my Zcash holding probably outweighs all my stock holdings. On a on a dollar basis I I hold more stocks, but on a risk adjusted basis I I still I'm probably one to one. >> So you don't own much like memory or the that crazy stuff cuz that's pretty volatile, too. >> Yeah, I I I never did memory which was a big up cuz I I saw that coming in like November last year.

Never pulled the trigger. >> Okay. >> Um >> It's more like it's just like what? Like Google, Meta, like what kind of >> like the the Nasdaq stuff. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> All right boys, let's do a let's do pastas. Ciao, you can hang around if you have one get one. Let's do pastas. Pasta the week time. On you. You have one? >> Oh, me? >> Tai Tai is always prepared. >> Tai Tai >> Yeah, I Yeah, I'll I'll I'll I'll keep it light-hearted, you know, you know, we were talking about being underweight [clears throat] crypto and stuff, but it really does feel like 3 weeks ago we were all depressed, honestly, like I was kind of not feeling myself, not not happy, but we're we're kind of like this ancient barbaric tribe that just got rain for the first time after like 80% of our population died.

It It really does feel that way. Of course, like Bitcoin like we're barely like we're not even close to all-time highs, but, you know, things like hyper liquid, pump Zcash, like we're you know, there's like a select community, right, in crypto that's like winning and like euphoric. >> Village Village elders. Village elders were >> elders >> [laughter] >> elders Plumbers meme. The The plumbers, yeah. >> [laughter] >> I mean, this is like quite a lot of likes for a very simple tweet, which kind of shows how much it it hit true. >> Hey, hey. >> No, it hit true. 4.4 thousand likes on a on a one-liner, that's you know, it's a good one. >> We all felt it, right?

Like we're in a drought and then just rain comes and we're just we're just euphoric. But the pumps aren't even that real, you know, or at least not yet. >> Shout out to Icebergy, previous guest of the show. Um Justin, you called it weak. We got to see what you have then. >> Yeah, so obviously like the big news that we've all been following is a few weeks ago Trump said those magic words, hyper liquid. >> German cellular automated >> all saw it here, so I won't play it again.

Um but some people that were watching very very closely detected the face of a man who 100x long hype 10 minutes before. I mean, look at this smirk when he hears hyper liquid. I'll just play the full video. Look at that. That's exactly the moment he says hyperliquid. I mean this man must have quite a good amount of exposure. Um but in all seriousness like honestly props to hyperliquid. That was that's incredible work. >> Yeah. >> So um generational.

Yeah, let's see if uh we we do get some kind of legalization of DEX perps and what that looks like if it's going to be segmented segmented liquidity pools or joint pools or what you know, I'm kind of curious to see how they're going to deal with the legal side of uh stuff. I remember when we were first starting to do DeFi there was always you know, players not wanting us to touch it because you don't know if North Korea's on the other side.

You can't really mingle, but >> Yeah. >> Curious to see like >> We didn't talk about it at all, but like it looks like clarity at least Polymarket has it at a very very low sub 20% chance clarity passes. And obviously if the Democrats take Congress in the mid in the house in midterms, which seems likely, clarity might be off the table. It does kind of feel like the Trump admin's kind of rushing to get these crypto changes with SEC and CFTC in before the end of his term.

So we'll see how it all shakes up, but AOC presidency is not going to be great for crypto. We'll see. >> Yeah, I'm not sure we get AOC, but um let's let's see who we do get. Um Dem, what do you got? >> All right, let's let's pull that up. I was going to do uh a quote tweet just in Sun's amazing incredible story. Yeah, I got I got the veto from Taiki, but whoever whoever wants to see it you can can DM I guess. So we're going to stick with uh some more kind of uh you know, kids friendly content.

Um so obviously everyone remembers the the goat launch, >> [laughter] >> you know, and back then I remember when goat launched this was like the best on-chain season ever. Uh so this is uh a tweet from uh, a guy called ZeroXRacist, really really good username, and he says, "If you ever think that uh, if you if you ever think that that coin is so it can never go to a billion dollars, just look at this image." And it's basically, you know, the the terminal of truths, of which the the good token was based on, just uh, tweeting its first rumblings, I guess.

But, to be honest, like, I feel like this on-chain season, uh, back then, represents me more than the current one with FOMO and and all these other uh, coins coming out. So, I I do feel like an ankh, uh, but I guess, hate hate Don't hate the Don't hate the game. >> All right. Yeah, don't hate the player, hate the game. >> Dickie, have you have you brought a Have you brought a pasta with you? >> I couldn't find one. I I was going to use Justin's one of Thread Guy's clip earlier today where he was like, "Man, I love Dickie, but he uh, he really just bottomed the crypto market when he launched and topped Pokémon." >> no, no, no.

That's not what he said. He said the exact quote. I think he said, "Dickie's my goat, but he sold the crypto bottom to pi- to buy the top of Pokémon cards." That was the exact quote. >> [laughter] [clears throat] >> He bottomed the market, Steady Lads. Thread Guy has done really well since we had him on the show. I think we had him, you know, when he was kind of in that controversial period with uh, with the LA crew, and we brought him on, and um, yeah, the guy's talented.

He's a He's a great interview host, and he's done very well. >> [snorts] >> So, um, props to him. Uh, Chow, any any pastas with you? >> Uh, I I I wasn't prepared, but I found a minor one I can uh, share in the chat. >> the chat. >> Well, if it's a minor one, Justin's going to give you that it's a weak pasta and whatever, but it's okay. Bring bring it on. Let's see. >> [laughter] >> What does he say? "Once you become a big crypto account, your options are make 60k a month from casinos and pump fund sponsorships or lose 100% of your money invested in seed rounds. >> We've all been there. >> Be a better seed investor. >> [laughter] >> And the guy says, "Can't.

I lost all my money shorting hype." Kyle Samani has like really been crashing out on the timeline. Um, another ex-guest of the show, but this one's not doing as well as some of the other ones. >> Yeah, Multicoin has been crushing it after he left. Like hype, Z- Zack, they've been they've been killing it. >> I I like Kyle Samani, you know, he he like says what he thinks. He doesn't give a He doesn't you know, he's got >> best, yeah.

He's awesome. >> Yeah, I like him. People just give him a like the hype hype maxis. >> You know, he he's >> Samani, you know. >> [laughter] >> He's a Samani of crypto. >> Uh Another one of my favorites. Um, all right, I'll I'll finish up with my pasta. This is one for old time's sake, guys. >> Oh man, you're switching it up at the last second. >> You know, no, no, this is my pasta. >> It's full screen it. It's full screen it. >> We've had We've had these robot Olympics in China, you know, like these things are like running faster than Usain Bolt.

So, one of these robots is is sprinting down and the tagline is the ETH Foundation running to their ledger after the pump. >> [laughter] >> It's too real. >> I'm just waiting for the for the headline that they've, you know, sold another 50 million. >> But they don't even have that much ETH left, right? That's kind of been the problem. I don't know. >> cuz I mean, they sold it all at the last peak. I guess so. >> Have you Have you ever thought about like maybe one of the reasons why crypto died is because Twitter died? >> Yeah, yeah.

I mean, there was >> It's the other way around, right? >> Yeah. >> Twitter died because >> Wow. >> Wait, why? >> Wow. >> Who are we blaming for this, Vicky? Is it like Nikita or >> I I think it's Elon Musk. I think he's mismanaged Twitter and then that was like the main way that crypto sort of spread to everyone and it died. >> No, but don't you remember it was like when Nikita came on to lead product there, he nuked a lot of the crypto influencers and a lot of the crypto-related algorithms that like push stuff.

And so like crypto died >> That's what you're saying though. So that's that's a big part of the reason why we >> Yeah, but the algorithm was dead. I mean, it wasn't doing well before Nikita also. Like the the whole I mean, like all the advertising kind of died on Twitter, too. It's just like hard to like advertise on Twitter. >> Mhm. >> Like if if he just like let Twitter advertising just like I mean, Elon Musk kind of wanted to kill the Twitter.

You know, cuz back then there's like so many token shills, right? On Twitter, which is what like Musk and and Nikita were trying to like sort of stop was like people just spamming tickers all the time. And there were like so many bots and everything. But um I mean, that's kind of I think that's part of the bullish like mobile thesis is like if you can shill on like Instagram Reels and TikTok, like that's where the new cohort of users are.

That's where the reach is. So I I think it ties into like Twitter dying, crypto dying. >> And if we can pull up the just the final chart, I guess, by Miles. It shows something interesting there, I guess. Tweet volume versus Bitcoin. I think that's Bitcoin price, right? Um Yeah, definitely definitely Twitter death. Just based on this, right? >> Yeah. >> I see. So this is this is a number of tweets mentioning these things, I guess. >> Yeah, tweet mentions, right. >> Although maybe like tweets for Bitcoin >> I mean, maybe those tweets were just like, you know, complete I mean, I guess like there's like high value tweets and and and just like noise spam tweets, I guess. >> It should be like impressions.

But like where where did Elon Musk acquire Twitter? It was like 2022, right? >> It was uh it was definitely I mean, CZ put a billion, so it was definitely still bull market. >> [laughter] >> I forgot about that. >> Yeah. >> It was October 27, 22. But the offer >> Wow. Literally like just before FTX. It was like it was like the week before FTX. >> That's crazy. >> That's why he wanted to That's why he wanted to sell FTX, huh? >> Or that FTX did. >> Anyway, lads, been good to [snorts] been good to have our all our favorites back.

Literally like I think everyone in here is the the ones that have done the most shows. So we're we're all came back. Hopefully the market lasts. I think it will. Kind of agree with Xiao that this feels like the start of a kind of like a new part of the of the market. It's more structural now. Um so let's hopefully have fun, do well, and keep health maxing, guys. >> Manifest it. And can we announce our Singapore? >> So we are going to do a live show at Token is the plan.

We'll have as many of the lads there as possible. So that'll be 7th of October, I think. We'll have the number out. Hope to see you guys there as well. Take care. >> All right, thanks, guys. >> All right. >> [music] [music]