The Basement: Diana Pasulka | Angels, Vatican Archives, and a Government Email transcript

Today I'm talking with Diana Walsh Pasoka. She's a religious studies professor who spent years in archives most people never see, including the Vaticans, [music] reading sworn testimony about saints who levitate in front of entire towns. Then the government noticed her research and she ended up blindfolded in the New Mexico desert digging for debris at an alleged UFO crash site. >> Blindfolded and driven out to the desert with a shovel.

Ah, sometimes I miss the old Vegas. >> By the way, this is a woman who won't set foot in a haunted house. The blindfold was fine, apparently. Today, we're covering the flying saints, the recruitment, and why she believes a new religion is forming around UFOs with somebody already writing its Bible. Her new book, The Others, just hit the New York Times bestseller list. >> The Times List is red, human, controlled by big publishing.

Unless she's on it, then then it's a very prestigious honor. Huh. Congratulations, Vanessa. >> And her leading candidate for the Antichrist. I didn't see that one coming. >> It's a cat, is it? >> It's not a cat. Yeah, it's exactly what a cat would want you to think. >> Stick around after the episode. I'll pop back in and untangle the conversation. Let's go down to the basement. Did Did you start your career in in death?

I know that you teach at the Museum of Death and Dying sometimes in Brooklyn. >> Yeah. >> Okay. So So what was it that drew you to death? Death. Yeah, >> I know. Um Okay. So, I've been studying religion my whole life and I'm in religious studies. So, I just have to explain what that is. So, because a lot of people don't know, they think that if you're studying religion, you're like a minister or theologian. And I definitely I went to um school with priests in formation, people who were going to be priests and nuns and so forth.

So, I have that background. Um but I'm I took an academic track. So, I was interested in religion from a perspective of I just didn't think I was good enough, frankly, to be a theologian. Like, in order to be a theologian, you have to like kind of walk the walk, right? And I was like, "Oh, I'm not, you know, I'm probably not that good, but I'm really interested in religion." So, >> well, what's the difference between the three theologian a theologian and the clergy? >> Yeah, they're the same.

They're the same. >> So, in order to be a clergy, you have to have a theology degree. And so I had the same background as a person who has a theology degree, but I went extra and got a PhD in a academic field and I'm super happy I did. So I'm in this field called religious studies which looks at religion. I mean most of the world are religious practitioners. It's really an important thing to know about and uh and so I study but not from a belief perspective.

So I'm not advocating for any belief. I'm not advocating for belief in Christianity. I'm not advocating for belief in Buddhism and I don't advocate for people to believe in UFOs. But you know that was the second part of my career was studying UFO belief. And so um how did I get into death and things like that? Uh so it was it wasn't really a choice. It just kind of happened. So I was looking at the ways in which I my my field is looking at technology and religious belief and the interactions that technology has on how people practice their beliefs and you know what they believe in and so but I was really interested in extraordinary events and how people describe them.

So what would that be? That would be like looking at angel contact events in the historical record for Christians. What do they believe or Jewish people? So I started to look at that that invariably crossed over into people having near-death experiences and things like that because a lot of people who have extraordinary events also have brushes with death or something like that. And so that's how it happened. It was very on accident kind of and one of my first publications in the first publications when I was a young assistant professor was looking and by the way I also spend a lot of time in archives and archives are old libraries so archives so this is for young people out there um believe it or not there there is nondigitized information that is not on the internet information that is you know not on your phone that chats GP PT doesn't know about and this is all contained in archives.

So I spent a lot of time like years and years in archives, old archives, Vatican archives, archives all over the place. And these, you know, we're talking about like manuscripts and books and even stones that have pic picto wait >> like like like petroglyphs. >> Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. Pictograms. Petroglyphs. Right. So um I've I've seen Aztec petroglyphs. And um >> so so you're so it's comparative religion. It's everybody. >> Oh, yeah.

Yeah, it is. It's comparative religion. And um so the first publication that I wrote was about near-death experiences of children um from the 1800s. And there was, believe it or not, there was a whole genre of writing about children who died and came back and said what they saw or just before they died, they were in a state where they could see people who had been dead and then tell the, you know, tell their friends so and so is okay or, you know, I I saw so and so and this is the what they want to say to you and so forth.

And so I thought this was really interesting. So that's what really got me into looking at death and why actually I became uh I'm part of the American Academy of Religion which is an international group or mostly American but international uh of people like me who study uh religion and um I co-chared the death uh session of that for like 10 years and now it's co-chared by my uh by a former student who's now a professor.

So, children death near-death experiences is interesting because they're not they don't have enough time on the earth to be primed for what to see. >> Yeah. >> And yet they're seeing the same things that kind of everybody sees. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, near-death experiences are interesting. One of the first recorded near-death experiences uh happened, well, was recorded about 2,500 years ago. Um, and that's with uh Plato, actually.

So, in his book, The Republic, he talks about a soldier who dies on the field, you know, the uh I guess the front, and uh everybody thinks he's dead, and then he comes back to life, and he says, "Wow, look what I saw when I was dead." And um it's really interesting. And so that's so they're they've been around for a long time, and they look similar. The patterns are similar. Are >> do are you seeing the same patterns in other cultures and religions as well?

Yes, you do. You see the same patterns. Um there are inflections, cultural inflections that are different. Um [clears throat] but but for the most part, it looks uh it looks pretty consistent. So what you see when a when a I know it sounds strange when a person dies and they come back and talk about it and >> it's not strange in this room. >> Okay, good. Good. All right. So often what happens is they have like what is called a life review.

And in ancient Egypt there's the same thing. There's this god Osiris who's looking at you know if your soul is not he weighs your soul and >> against the feather. >> Yeah. Exactly. And if it's not if it's heavy uh there's a demon that that you know so there's always a sense of judgment that you get um after a really kind of okay experience of meeting a guide right and the guide can be an like an a luminous being or it could be if you're Christian Jesus or you know so there's always that uh cultural inflection of that helps you frame what you're what you see uh and then if the person well the person has to come back to explain that they went through this.

But this was a whole genre of literature for Catholics of the mid medieval era and the you know European basically the European continent right where these people are having these experiences and then monks are writing about it and they're called otherworld journeys and so I got into other world journeys and that was my first book was about purgatory which is a dogma of the Catholic church that describes bribes when souls are not good enough to go to heaven, where do they go?

It's this place called purgatory. And so purgatory was I spent a lot of time in archives to write that book. So that was my first book. >> Why did why did Catholicism kind of abandon the idea of purgatory? >> Well, okay. So they haven't technically abandoned purgatory. So that's still a dogma of the church. What happened was that there was a big like almost like an internal reformation for Catholics in the 1960s between 1961 and 65 and this is called Vatican 2.

And what they did was they determined that a lot of people were falling away from the Catholic Church. Why? Right? And they thought it was this emphasis on well, you know, we tell them when their when they die their soul will go to hell or purgatory. It looks pretty bad, right? And that's not a good look, right? So they reformed how they taught their priests and they taught their priests in seminary to downplay this this idea of purgatory.

And so so in that sense, so when churches in in you know prevatican 2 churches were built with a place where people would pray for the souls in purgatory, th that's not done now. that devotion is still done by believing Catholics, right? Uh many Catholics don't know about it though. Like no, no, young Catholics aren't I mean, if they're traditionalist Catholics, by the way, this this is a source of contention every time I talk about it.

Catholics email me and they're very upset and they say, "No, we know about this, Diana. What are you talking about?" And I'm like, "Well, you know about it." But like the the Catholics that come into my class, those young people, they don't know about purgatory. So it is a thing that they downplayed that uh for those Catholics. But there's a comeback right now happening in Catholicism and those ideas that were downplayed in Vatican 2 are now being embraced by young Catholics. >> That's funny.

So whether it's Vatican 2 or 367 or Carthage or the Council of Trent, it's all about marketing. >> Yes, it is. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. H how does the um the idea of purgatory and Catholicism track with with Dante's work? By 3 p.m. I'm usually four coffees deep. My heart's doing that weird flutter thing. I'm jittery and somehow I'm still tired. Then an hour later, I crash. And of course, all that caffeine means my sleep that night is garbage.

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Just one pouch, steady focus, and a sleep score that isn't actively judging me. Ultra is the ultimate guilt-free pouch, delivering instant focus and mental clarity without nicotine or caffeine. New customers [music] can use code basement to get 15% off at take ultra.com. That's take Ultra.com [music] for 15% off with code basement. After you purchase, they'll ask you where you heard about them. Tell them the basement. >> Okay, so Dante's describing So Dante Aligaryi, right?

So he's in the 1200s writes the uh the Divine Comedy, which is basically about his journey, his soul, you know, he's in love with this woman named Beatatrice. And so um and he's had a pretty terrible life, right? So he's been ostracized and you know, so he's he's he's upset. Uh but he writes this beautiful epic poem about his uh journey that his soul takes through the various levels of the afterlife. Uh so there's the purgatorio, uh there's heaven, and then there's hell.

And >> I think everyone knows the Inferno, but they don't know Purgatorio or Paradizo. >> That's right. They don't. That's That's right. And so what happens though during this is he's he has a guide. So, you know, it's a classic kind of near-death journey, but like >> upgraded, right? >> Yeah. >> So, it's not a couple pages and it's also beautiful, but he also describes in depth the punishments of the people in the various places like in hell, the inferno.

Yeah. >> And it looks brutal, right? And he in some people that did him wrong in life, you see them there in in the poem. So, but it's really beautiful when he gets to So, Virgil, by the way, is his first guide and is a uh what he calls a a good pagan, right? So, a pagan being a non-Christian. And he's not allowed to go into heaven. So, he has to stop at some point. And then, of all people, Beatatrice become becomes his guide.

And when she ascends, it's quite beautiful actually. And um I I recommend it as excellent reading. >> It is. And the political commentary is is entertaining in it. >> It is. It is. Yeah. So, but your question was does he get it right? Right. Yeah. So, I mean that's the thing is we don't know, right? We don't know. But I think that he, you know, he follows the template of the medieval otherworld journey. Um, and he has all the elements there, right?

So, and he, you know, I don't know if he gets it right, but I kind of there's a part of me that that thinks it especially when you get to how he describes the heavens, which bring in like the imagery of the stars in the imagery of space. And I mean, that's pretty cool. And, you know, he's writing like so long ago. How could he know those things? like the imperium and so forth. He's talking about a center of the universe in space where God, you know, attracts and uh pretty amazing. >> It's almost like he read the book of Enoch before he wrote that.

Um so we know that Plato influenced Catholicism. Did was there influence did what about Osiris and the duat? Is there influence there as well? >> Gosh, that's a good question. Um I can't say uh authoritatively. I don't know. I only one guy knows. >> Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. No, I do not know that. >> I'm asking more academically if you see if you see that. >> Um >> because I see the connections between when they go from polytheism into Aenatan and monotheism and then it it dubtales very nicely into the story of Moses and Exodus.

You there's a a through line there that I think you can follow through history. I was just curious if early Catholics were aware of of the duat and how all that worked. Could you see something? >> I would I would assume so. I would assume so. But I can't see my position is if I don't know it specifically and can give you the evidence for it, but I can tell you off record like and I Yeah. Okay. Off record. I think so.

Like I think so. So, but you know, let's just say that that's not my academic self saying that uh because I don't know authoritatively. >> So, everything you're saying today, are you speaking for UNCC? You're the spokesperson out today? No. [laughter] >> No. No. Okay. No. I'm I'm speaking as a private individual. >> Fair enough. >> Okay. Yeah. But I hear I I do uh agree that you know when I went to seminary and um you know did that that training we didn't learn about Socrates and Plato and the and it's their influence.

So although it's truly there >> you didn't >> no and that's what I think is so amazing was that in a sense I had one of the best educations you can have in that field but so many things I learned on my own by reading you know theologians that did have that training so that training kind of got cut off and thank goodness for I mean this is the good part of technology you know you can learn a lot right today just doing your own stuff, right?

What would you call it? Like armchair PhD or something like that. And you can definitely do that. Um, and also another thing though, which I like about the work I do is that I have a lot of friends who know a lot about different things. So if I don't know the answers, like Hebrew Bible information or something like that, I could just go to them and say, "What does this say in the Hebrew, right?" And we can work it out.

Um, and that's that's part of the reason I went to school, by the way, is so I could have a extended network of people who because you can't know everything, >> right? >> But you and your friends can know a lot. >> So when you read Plato, when you read The Republic and he talked about um the immortal spirit, we you were just like, "Wait, wait a minute." >> Well, you see, I was exposed to that as an undergraduate and even as a high school kid, right?

Sure. And so I just read it like they taught me, which was sadly kind of boring, like the boring version of Plato, which by the way is really hard to do because it's so fascinating. Yeah. >> And so I I read it >> and didn't take a lot away from it actually. I just thought it was political. >> Um and it wasn't Yeah. It wasn't until after graduate school actually that I started to go back and even after doing UFO research I started to go back and think what like he was he was talking about the simulation theory you know he was talking about the bad guys you know he was talking about so many things that are relevant today and uh wow he was even talking about externalized memory >> externalized memory where did he talk about that >> in Fadrris so in Fris Socrates is having a conversation with Fedrris.

And Fedrus is like these he's a young guy from Athens who's like into the newest technology which is writing and he's all about it and he's like this is going to be cool. this is going to take over you know kind of like AI guys today right so that's faded and so Socrates is like h let's talk about this and he goes what are the repercussions of you losing your memory to this technology that's what he says I mean he doesn't use that language but he's talking about memory he uses that language and so he's talking about the externalization of memory and how it's going to change you it's going to change how you access knowledge and you're going to lose the capacity to do that Somebody just asked me recently uh if Socrates would in fact it was a student.

It was a graduate student and she said, "I'm asking everybody this question I want to ask you." And I was like, "Okay." And she said, "What would Socrates think about AI today?" And I was like, "Oh, he would like he would just die, right? He he bring him back to life, show him AI, he'd probably die." And she was like, "Oh, are you sure?" And she was kind of disappointed. And I said, "Yes." Because he warned about if we, you know, think about it.

Culture was oral, you know, orally transmitted knowledge. And many cultures today still like indigenous cultures, no way. They're not going to do the writing thing. They're not going to externalize their memory because they have a lot of knowledge. They don't want to mess that up. Okay? So, that's going to be something that probably a lot of your viewers won't understand, but I'm going to try to explain it. And that is that you know in Fedrris um what's going on is that Socrates the he the reason why he knows so much is because he doesn't know anything.

And that's what he says. He says I don't know anything. But then how does he know things? He knows math. He knows things that we just figured out using technology today. These things called the solids, the platonic solids. They're real, right? But they're not in our dimension. And we're using, you know, professors at UC Berkeley are now figuring out how to identify these things and what they are and like the tetrahedrin and so forth.

Well, how did he know that? Right? How did he know that? He was using his brain and his body in a different way and he said, "Writing is going to mess this up. We don't really want to do this." And he called it anamnesis. So, it's a form of retrieval, like memory retrieval knowledge. What's the problem with writing? Because I because it would be corrupted the oral tradition would corrupt it as well. You would have your own sort of your own leanings would leak into that. >> So this is so he did have the hope that there was a form of writing which could be helpful.

Okay, there was a form of technology which could be helpful. This would only be though for people who were already in contact with the ability to retrieve knowledge uh in this this way that he's talking about. Um and there aren't very many people that could do that because he had to train them, right? They they had to be trained. >> And um yeah, so you know, so my grad student here, there you go. You know, he's not going to be happy about AI.

I don't we see it with every technology whether it's um video games or comic books any kind of new way of communicating is always you know what are the repercussions of this >> yeah that's absolutely true um I do I do think though that he's right that we can have it but we just have to have it in a way that's helpful and I always present to my students when I give this talk to them um because you know right now what I find is that young people know what's happening.

They're not like they're also upset. They're like, "Oh, how could you have given us a world like this, you know, and I'm like, uh, sorry, [laughter] >> you know, how like what what do we do now?" Um, I I lost the train of thought that I was going down. >> That's okay. We'll pick up the tree at some point. >> Okay. >> That's the boomer generation. Gen X is fixing it. We're fixing it. >> Yeah. >> Um, we're I don't know if it's compatible in ancient Egyptian, but where what about reincarnation?

How does that work with Catholicism? Is it compatible? >> No, >> it's not compatible. >> No. Even though there are references in you can see Hebrew Bible references and so forth and even in the New Testament there are things that are like what what does that mean? You know, um but for for uh no, it's not going to be compatible though with Catholicism is is a an interpretation of the Bible and uh you know the extra biblical texts and so forth that went into influencing the early church.

Um so it's not the only Christian religion. Uh there are Christian denominations in which uh reincarnation is compatible but those are different interpretations but for Catholicism it's not. >> Well how do you feel personally in your in comparative studies? >> Okay. So that's yeah. So as an academic looking at that >> uh you know there are a lot of things that the denominations hold as tradition and dogma that when you look at this is why it's important to make this distinction to students especially when they come in and they have their tradition they're Jewish or they're Christian you know you want to you don't want to upset their ideas but you want to pre present the you know what we have over here is religious studies we're looking at it historically you know some of the things that we get from the Hebrew Bible is that it looks like you know it's not monotheist istic in the beginning, right?

And that, you know, there's an idea of other gods and so forth, but that doesn't have to challenge their faith's interpretation. They just have to go back and figure it out like what does their faith say about this, right? And I think that's why I was interested in religious studies because I thought all those challenges you can't then for me it's not okay. Like God gave me a brain, right? I'm supposed to use it. So I'm not going to say ah that that's not compatible.

I'm gonna put it over here and not even think about it. But every once in a while it creeps in, right? What does that mean? And so yeah, so religious studies allows you to think about those things and you know deeply. And what I find is that Catholics in the you know a lot of Catholics think about those things. >> Of course they do. >> Yeah. >> I mean when you read some of the stories about about children who come back or children who are remembering past lives, I think most of it is bunk, but some of the stories are really compelling.

Have you ever read about like James Lenner and some of those other stories? >> Yeah. Yeah, I've read so many near-death experience stories. Yeah. >> And as a Catholic, how do you do you dismiss it? >> No. No. No. I believe that people have near-death experiences. I have students throughout >> What about past life experiences, though? >> Yeah. Okay. So, I'm not I don't know. Um it seems amazingly compelling like you say that you know when young children you know talk about you know their lives and you can corroborate that.

Uh there's that Virginia University of Virginia archive right that is there. I forgot the name of the archive so pardon me for the folks who do do that work. There's a bunch of people there who do that work. You should have them on by the way. That would be really interesting. Um, yeah, and they could talk about their archive and all the near-death children's near-death experiences that they have in that archive and and that work that they've done. >> So, there's room in your belief structure to allow for that. >> Oh, for sure.

Yeah. Yeah. So, the thing about me is um you know, if it if it's data that you can't explain, it's data you can't explain, right? So, I'm not going to dismiss it, especially if people are having these experiences. Of course, especially and since they're so similar. I mean, I don't consider myself very religious, although I'm I'm moving more that way. I think a lot of people are, but I've said very often that, you know, after I die, if Jesus is there, the first thing I'll tell him is, "Thank God." >> Right.

[laughter] >> Yeah. >> So, I'm I'm open to it. >> Yeah. For sure. >> I just like I like I like data. >> Yeah. That's right. That's right. Me, too. >> But as you get as you get older, you start to become a little more open-minded about what comes next. >> It does happen. Yeah. And how do you feel about that? Do you you worry about your mortality? >> I don't worry about it, but I do feel this way about it. I feel that first of all, I'm I kind of feel like Socrates that, you know, this is what he's well, he sadly had to kill himself.

I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. But, you know, Athens wanted him to >> take hemlock. Um, >> and he chose it. >> He did because he didn't have to. >> He didn't have to. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, but he this is what he said to his friends who are upset with him. Um, he said, 'Look, I've led a life that I examined and I I feel good about. So, if I die and there's an afterlife, I'll be hanging out with people I like, right?

And he goes, I'll have great conversations with them. If I don't, if there's nothing, then it'll be like the best sleep I've ever had, right? >> You're not going to care. >> Yeah, exactly. So, like wife read about it. Um but I what I do feel is that I am happy that I am alive so that I can do things I think I should do like the things I think I should do. I have kids. I'm going to make sure that they're set up all right.

You know that's my I feel that I need to do that. I have students. I feel like I have an obligation to my students to do the best I can for them and to help them learn the things they need to know and even to help the ones that I'm in direct contact with do well, you know, outside when they're done, right? Kind of postgraduate. So, I have these things that I feel like I'm I should do. And um I'm glad I'm alive so I could do that.

And um you know maybe I want to be able to at if I'm if I know when I'm going to die, you know, if I'm like really old, then I say, "Okay, it's going to happen any day now." And I feel okay about that. Like Socrates, right? >> Yes. >> Yeah. But I I don't feel that way yet. So I feel like I I I'm not seriously. So, you know, being transparent. Yeah. >> Um I would like to have more time to do to do as much as I can to like >> to get to the point.

And I'm not in any way that I like selfish like I want to feel good about what I've done in my life. I mean, that's not really that selfish. Uh the things I want to do aren't like, you know, make a a million dollars, make a billion dollars or whatever. You know, that's great for the people who want to do that, but I I guess I'm people oriented. >> Every diet trend asks [music] the same thing. Readjust your whole life overnight.

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Congratulations, by the way. New York Times [laughter] bestseller list. >> Yeah. Amazing. I can't believe that. >> Hasn't been two weeks yet. >> No, it hasn't. >> Yeah. I feel really shocked. >> Do your students know how like famous you are? Um, I don't think so. I mean, some of them do, but some I'm not famous. Okay. But they're But when they like, you know, some of them are really happy about what I do. Some of them send me notes and say, "Wow, cool.

I saw you on this podcast." They're going to say that after this podcast. Um, so my kids love this podcast. And, uh, yeah. So, that's kind of cool. I do like that. >> Yeah. And being well-known doesn't have to be a bad thing because these are ideas that more people should hear even if you don't agree with them. >> Yeah. Yeah. I believe that. Yeah. >> So, you're on an assignment translating Latin and Hollywood calls and it's the conjuring. >> That's right.

Yeah. >> What happened there? >> That was so that was great. I loved that. Okay. So, this happened in 2011 and I'm doing all my normal work, right? just kind of like doing the professor stuff and um and I get a phone call and we by the way Wilmington, North Carolina h we have movies. It's called like uh Hollywood East. So we have like big movie studios and so forth. A lot of things get filmed there. And so I get a a phone call and uh one of the people they they got a phone call and they said, "We need someone who does Latin." And and I was like, "Latin?" I'm like, "My Latin's horrible." I go, "But uh most likely it's going to be an exorcism movie, a movie about exorcism because why else are they going to want some somebody helping with their Latin?" So I said, "Well, I'll go." Well, oh no, actually what I said was, "We do have a person who's who does Latin." And I said, >> "You should talk to her first." She didn't want anything to do with it.

She said, "No, I'm not interested. I'm way too busy." And I was like, "Okay, I'll do it." So I go out to the studio and it's um >> to LA. >> No, it's actually in Wilmington. Okay. They're filming in Wilmington and they let me in and I meet Chad Hayes and Carrie Hayes and they're these the screenwriters and they bring me back and I see James Juan on set and the know the reason I know about him is because my husband really likes his movies and so I'm like James Juan, you know, like I don't see him, you know, kind of like and then I see some of the famous people that are on set and Vera Pharmaga and so forth and I was like okay this is going to be a cool movie and they tell me what it's about and um I could help them because they were trans they were [laughter] they were translating the Latin right which is an exorcism prayer which is the exorcism prayer >> and but they were translating the the instructions they weren't actually translating yeah so I said at least I know this much like my Latin's terrible but at least I know that much and uh so so they brought me on to help them and I had a really fun time doing that and I still know those guys and I still work with That's funny.

Did Did you consult on any other movies? >> Yeah, I consulted on a bunch of movies >> and Netflix. >> Yeah, I did a a series that was nominated for an Emmy. Um, and it's an ambulance series, which uh is great, and it's about Encounters, which is strangely the name of my book. Um, that was an accident, but my book comes out and then their their documentary comes out and it's about UFOs. And so, um, that was fun to work on.

Yeah. So, I've been doing that. I'm doing that now. I can't say what I'm doing. >> Oh, you can't? >> No. But, um, but when when it does happen, I'll tell you about it. >> Okay. >> But it's really exciting. >> I bet it is. All right. More about death. I want to know about cosmism and and Federoff. >> Fedorov, right? Okay. >> That's that sound like a wild theory to me. >> Yeah. Okay. So, um, you're talking about, uh, a movement in Russia >> that is called the Russian Cosmist Movement. >> And the Cosmist movement was a movement started by Nikolai Federov.

Uh, but also uh, Constantine Chakosski was part of it. So, he's the guy who did the rocket technology for Russia, right? So Federov was this guy who was a librarian and uh you know really just totally into what he was like his books and thinking about like writing science fiction and thinking about getting you know hum like the next iteration of human beings. They were going to be close to being like angels basically.

They were going to take the place of fallen angels because fallen angels this is his idea. These are his ideas and he inspired uh all of the uh the next generation of rocket technologists actually. And so it was a this belief system that incorporated Christianity because part of the the task so they had a task a mission. Okay. And so he thought, you know, that the next iteration of humanity, what we needed to do was not only become space fairing, but we also needed to resurrect all the dead.

That >> all >> Yeah. all the dead. That would be the good thing to do. That would be if we could do that, we must do that. And so it became like a moral imperative. And there are now there are Russian billionaires who are set on 2040 being the the time when we we'll be able to do that when human beings kind of like um the singularity right when human beings will be immortal. So this was so Russian that's Russian cosmism and it happened between 1880 to the early 20th century. >> Well how did Federov think that that was going to happen?

What would the technology be? >> Well he didn't know actually. Okay. [laughter] >> Or else he would have done it. >> He would have done it. >> Oh, 100%. He was bent on doing this. >> How do you resurrect someone who's been dead for a thousand years or 2,000? >> I mean, how do think about it though, AJ? Like, how do we make it into space, you know? So those kinds of things that we think are like back in the day they thought the space travel was for nutty people back in the day you know people thought that they were crazy >> and um but now we're doing it right even airplanes like they're like even electricity you know all of these things now we can do these things so he thought and by the way this is a this is a really interesting idea that if we can think it we can do it okay and I realized that a lot of the history of our country and Russia has these people in them who are like thinking on the very edge and and they don't doubt that we are going to do this.

Okay. And it's kind of interesting because then looks like it's happening. This is happening that's happening. Right? Obviously resurrecting the dead isn't happening. But this is what this was their moral. They believe that this was a moral thing to do. >> Well, if we start resurrecting the dead and things start to track like first Thessalonians >> I know. Yeah. I don't know. Is that a good thing? >> Well, I mean, that's the thing.

It's like always, you know, who brought up the idea of it's the Jurassic Park kind of ethical dilemma, right? Right. >> Should we do it? Well, we could do it, but should we do it? Right. >> Right. With technology. Uh was uh Mary Shelley >> Frankenstein. So, she wrote Frankenstein in the 1800s. She was only 18 when she did that, by the way. And that was her idea was that is this really a good idea because we could do it like you know Frankenstein is the um scientist who basically resurrects takes these bodies puts it together uses a little bit of like techno electricity and boom there's this monster.

Um and it's a monster. It's not like you know I mean we could call it a good monster or a complicated monster right? >> Complicated. >> Yeah. Yeah. complicated, but you know, she's basically putting the ethical dilemma out there. >> Yeah, she did. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. That I mean, I wonder does is Federoff a contemporary of Jules Vern at that time? >> Is that okay? Jules Vern is going to be uh is that 1880s? I >> think it's a it's got to be close.

I'm just I'm just wondering because because Jules Vern kind of made alli I mean he was basically hard sci-fi. Yeah. >> A lot of that stuff has happened. >> I know. I know. I think so actually. So the Russian version of you know because there because there were a lot that the people who were really intelligent were hanging out with each other like the Americans and the the Russians you know and they had their communities uh that they were mutually you know discussing these kinds of things.

Um maybe it's hard to say. He I mean if Jules Vern was writing at that point I would have to assume that Fedorov knew his >> Sure. I mean because everybody did. >> Yeah. So of course he's going to and plus he's into sci-fi. >> Right. Right. That's right. Um >> see this is how this this is exactly how academics think. They're like, they're like, you know, even if they can't like uh, >> you know, give the resources of evidence, they're like, "This person had to have been influenced by this, but we can't prove it." Yeah.

But they were, >> but they must have been. >> Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. >> Um, yeah. Who isn't influenced by Michael Kiteon or, you know, Christopher Nolan? Everybody knows who they are and their stories. >> That's right. Um, it's interesting that whether it's Russia or America, the rocket scientists are always involved in the esoteric and all these weird things. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Is this an accident? >> Okay. Is this an accident?

So, that's a good question. Uh, I was surprised when I found out that this was the case. So, when I moved from Catholic history into looking at UFOs, I decided the first thing I needed to do was look at the space the history of the space program. So I started to read everything I could and I also realized that I had to read about the Russian space program too because each of those were the viable programs that got us actually off Earth, right?

And what I found was that at the basis of those were these scientists who were into the esoteric, right? Um maybe the Christian esoteric on the Russian side and then the occult esoteric on our side. Y >> um and the thing is is that so I had friends at this point who were in the Space Force and were you know it wasn't called the Space Force then and were like look if you need to go to the Air Force uh archives just let me know and I'm like yeah of course I do I do you know it's in LA this and that and he's like I I can get you in there and so they were like yeah no problem you have a friend who's an academic writing about the history of space what you know at at that point I had given a conference I had given some information like a belief system of UFOs and they could Google that and find out.

As soon as they figured that out, they were like, "Nope, she can't come." [laughter] >> Oh, really? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> I'm not surprised. >> And there were a lot of things though that So, I went over everything I could that was digitized, right, about the American that they released. And their historians were really trans uh transparent. And they were like, "A lot of this history has to be written by future historians because it's still classified and we can't write it." And I was like, "Wow, at least they're honest." >> Yeah.

Uh, take us to the Vatican archives. I mean, I I still call them the secret archives, but I I know the the apostolic [laughter] archives. You How many times did you go there? >> Um, so I went there for two weeks once >> to the archives. Yeah, the archives and the the library, the archives, the secret archives >> and uh the observatory archives. >> So, how did that all start? >> Okay. Well, it was again wonderful things often happen truly by accident. >> They do. >> So, um I was working I'm working at my university and I work with a sister there. uh for Catholic students, we kind of do things, but she wants to invite the current director of the Vatican observatory, which is an observatory owned by the Vatican, um to come talk about what they do there, the space research and so forth for our students and other people who want to come, community members and so forth.

So, she said, um, can you pick up Brother Guy? He's going to be at the airport. And, you know, I'm always kind of the go-to person to do all these things. And I'm like, sure, no problem. >> You're the go what? You're you're the airport run. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, for sister, you know, Rose, I'll do that, you know. Sure. So, I'm like, "Yeah." So, I'll go I go pick him up and I take him to Father Joe's. Father Joe has this really beautiful house next to his church, which is on the ocean.

So, we take Brother Guy there. I take Brother Guy there. And they they invite us to have some sweet tea. We're in the South. So, we're on the porch looking at the ocean, just talking about random stuff. And it occurs to me to ask him about, you know, I'm starting this UFO research. And it occurs to me to ask him where in the Vatican because I haven't gone yet. Um I can find some of those books about, you know, space stuff.

And so I just ask him, "Ah, I'm writing something about, you know, belief in the rise of UFOs and so forth." He knows I'm totally academic. So he's like, "Ah, all that stuff that comes in the Vatican actually comes to my archive in the space of observatory in Castle Gondalfo." He goes, "We have a place you can stay. You're welcome to come for as long as you need to." And I was like, I'll do that. >> Yes, you'll do that, of course. >> So, I did that.

Yeah. >> So, that but that's the that's different than the archives, right? The observatory. >> It is. But >> how do you get downstairs? >> Yeah. Okay. So, the archive itself it is. Okay. So, there's the Vatican archive which in the secret archive >> and so the secret just means that it's the pope's >> archive like he gets to decide like you know all about it and so forth >> and so um that was cool. So it's it is there is a basement area right and there are various places to go um on site at the Vatican and that was definitely an interesting place to be.

Well, take us through the day. The first day, what doors did you walk through? Who the guys with guns? The security. >> Okay. You know about that. Okay. Yeah. So, that was really shocking. Um, so I was really >> That was shocking. You didn't think there'd be security there? >> I just didn't I just didn't realize how scary they would look. So, >> Oh, yeah. These aren't Swiss guards. No, these are actual guards. >> Yeah.

Yeah. They're guards who Yeah. They're like uh, you know, they look like army guys. like you know with everything they have these big guns and so forth and >> the Swiss guards are badass too. They just wear funny unifor. Yes. Right. So um it just so happened I went there with um a person that I knew from the uh he was affiliated with our government working in space force. Okay. And he suggested early on that he come with me because he would be able to identify stuff that might be of interest.

And since I was doing that research, I thought, "Okay, that's probably a good idea." So I said, "I didn't think you'd be able to get in." All right. So I I can take you through that first day. >> Yes. >> Okay. So we go on two separate flights. Okay. Um the reason is is because I have flight anxiety and I really couldn't get on the first flight. [laughter] >> Yeah. Really? Yeah. Yeah. I just It's really I do fly all over the place, but I have flight anxiety.

So going to Italy was, you know, scary for me, but I did it. And so, um, but I couldn't get on the first flight. So he went out there and I I told him how to like try to get into the office. >> Hang on. What do you do? You just go, "F it. I can't do it." You go home. >> No, it it's like a struggle. I'm telling you. >> Call a doctor, get some Xanax, [laughter] get on there. >> No, that doesn't even help. >> Wow. >> I know.

It's pretty bad. It's pretty bad. I don't really like to fly either, but I mean I'll go to if the Vatican calls, I'm there. >> Well, yeah. So, I did go. >> So, the next day you made it. >> Of course. >> Okay. Of course. >> I knew I had to go. >> You have to. [laughter] >> You know, it's it's not like Okay. It's not so easy. All right, folks. >> It's not. >> It's not. [laughter and gasps] >> All right. So, so he gets there first and he's like doesn't know what to do.

He can't get in because it's hard to get in. You have to have a PhD in Catholic studies or something like that and you have to have a need to know, right? You have to have legitimate reason to go and get in. >> And for people who don't know, you can't just go there and browse like the Dewey decimal system. You need to you need to say this is what I want to see. >> Yes. Way beforehand because it might be something that they have, you know, there it there are miles and miles of uh >> three miles.

That's right. Of archival material. So they need to know so they could go find it. Okay. And um so so there's all that and so there's the library which sometimes people can get into but this is not that this is not the library. This is the archive. There are by the way there are books written about how to study at the archive. So books written about it. >> I can Yeah. I think you would need that. >> Yeah. So I I read those books and I also got in touch with the authors and I was like I'm going here. things probably have changed and um every all the correspondents I had to use Google Translate because it was all in Italian, you know.

So, all right. So, um anyway, so the person is Tyler. That's a pseudonym and I >> Are we not naming him yet? Because we we know who that is. >> I know. But listen, I can't name him because I in my field it's an ethical imperative. Fair enough. Okay. >> I talked about on the show for the people who are upset, they can go listen to the show. We talk about him. >> Okay. So, so Tyler's going and he's there already and uh good things happen to that guy and you know and so he meets uh an insider.

He meets this American priest there who's an insider takes a liking to him and says I'll help you whatever you need I'll help you. And so he's like, well, he can't help him get into the archive, right? So, um, but he can help him with anything else. And but he does get in. And the reason he gets in, so as I'm traveling on the plane, I'm going, you know, and we're texting back and forth and he goes, "What? Can I just show them my credentials?" Because he's got special credentials, right? >> You weren't in airplane mode.

You're going to crash the plane. No, I was in airplane mode, but you can you can still certain certain plane flights allow you to be like >> I'm only teasing you. >> No, no, no, no. I wouldn't do that. My goodness. I'm on the plane. Okay. So, uh yeah. So, it's Wi-Fi that allows you to text. That is, you know, whatever it is. So, I'm texting him and he says that um he wants to show his credentials and I'm thinking that's a bad idea because I it would be like the Air Force thing.

They'll like kick us out, you know, if they know anything about UFOs or anything like that, you know. Um, and I said I was there to do research, which I was there to do about these saints that are billocating saints and flying saints and so forth, right? And look at their records and so forth. All right. So, um, so he's trying to get in and finally he can't get in. It's like two hours later and so he he asks and I say, "Just show them whatever you need to show them and see see if it works." Like last stitch effort.

And apparently uh it worked. Okay. his face came up on their screen and they were like, "You're in." And I was like, "Wow, >> that's incred." He knew that he would be able to get in. He was just waiting for me to give him the okay. So, um, so he was in and then I finally got there, >> met him and met the father who would take us in. Now, I would not go anywhere in the Vatican without this father because of these guys, these um, you know, guys with the guns and so forth.

Uh because if you're not and I I'm not looking like I'm a part of the Vatican. Mostly they're guys and they're all wearing black and you know they look a certain way and I'm not looking like that. And so I'm easily identified and so there was a point when the father was not near me and the the mean guys were like get out of here you know they're going to escort me out and the father comes back and says no no she's with me and they let me go.

So every all after that I'm like almost hanging on to you know like following him around. But in the archive, um, he didn't come with me. So, I was able to go. I'm a researcher. So, uh, they take you in, they there's a rickety elevator that's kind of scary. You're hoping that you don't get, you know, stuck in it. And it takes you down. And then there's a bunch of stairs that you go down. And then there's a beautiful, beautiful room and you have to ask for what you came for, right?

And they get it and they bring it to you. and you have to wear special gloves and you sit down at your own table that kind of looks like this and they'll they're there to help you with anything you need. Um, and then you sit there and you're with the book. You're with the book, the manuscript or whatever it is. And probably there were about 10 people in there and you're not t you shouldn't talk. Okay. Tyler didn't abide by those rules.

Um, >> he doesn't follow. >> No. [laughter] And so, um, he did a bunch of things that I was like, "Stop doing that, you know." Uh, but I'm glad he did actually because there were a lot there was a lot of information that we got from that. >> Like what? >> Okay. So, um, part of what we got was information about the canonization record. So, part of it was that we were looking into especially Maria Agrada. So, she this was a a saint in uh the 1500s.

Oh gosh, I hope I got it right. >> Maria of who? >> Maria of Agrada. So she's a Spanish. Yeah. So um you might have to fact check um because I haven't talked about her in a long time. Um maybe I'm sorry. It might be the 1600s. >> It most likely is >> Let us know in the comments. >> Okay. Okay. So anyway, so she is the lady in blue and we do know about her in the American Southwest because in fact after I came after I wrote American Cosmic in which this is described um people from the uh tribe uh that had seen her right during that time period you know come they reached out to me and they were like we want to know about your research which I thought was really interesting.

Um, so she's this woman who was in Spain while the missionaries were here from Spanish missionaries, uh, evangelizing indigenous people in the American Southwest. Um, some of them didn't need to be evangelized because they had already been evangelized. And the missionaries are like, "What? Who was here?" And they said, "This lady." And they were like, so they had actually uh, not a photo obviously, but they had like a drawing of a nun. and they showed them the drawing on this lady and they were like, "D no, younger but but she's wearing the same thing." And so that was weird, right?

Yeah. >> And so uh you still see there's churches to her now here in the American Southwest and so forth and all kinds of things and communities that still uh hold her in reverence. Um, but she believed that she I've I've read her books and her diaries and she believed that she was traveling over the earth and she could see the spinning earth between uh under her on the wings of angels and she would come down into the American Southwest and teach these people about Jesus and so forth and then go back. >> Where did she travel from? >> She traveled from herself.

She's a nun in uh Spain. >> Whoa. Yeah. So, she flies across the planet. >> Yeah. She flies across the planet and her in her diaries she discusses everything. She discusses the people that she met, one of whom didn't have like sight in one eye and this is corroborated by uh this the Spanish missionary whose name escapes me at the moment um who describes the same guy. Um anyway, so a lot of people won't believe this story, but the story is so fascinating and fascinated me.

So, I was there to look at her story. And strangely, it was in the same area that Tyler had taken me to when we went and looked for UFO debris. And so, it didn't occur to me until I was actually there in the Vatican. And then I thought about it and I was like, she was there. She was in that same area. And I thought it was a strange coincidence. So, I I remember looking at Tyler at the time and I said, do you realize that she was? and he just didn't want to talk about it. >> He was like did he his face got like >> his face got I'm not talking about that and I was like okay >> I bet that whole section has very interesting stories in it >> I think so.

Yeah. So um so there is a book that I I don't have uh by her which by the way I met a person from the CIA who who has a copy of that book which is weird if you think about it. Yeah, because h how do you get that? In 1979, inflation was running above 13%. [music] And the Fed was pushing interest rates into double digits, trying to bring it under control. In the middle of all [music] that chaos, silver went from around $6 an ounce to nearly 50 in less than a year.

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Is there a craft? Is this like a Merkoba or >> Yeah, this is really interesting. Yeah, it does sound like Merkoba. So merkabo would be chariot um terminology for those who don't know. >> These listeners know Ezekiel very well. >> Okay. Okay. Good. So in my opinion that's what it looks like. You know she describes the wings of angels carrying her above the earth. So she's kind of like in the stratosphere or somewhere near, you know, the edge of space and the earth's atmosphere.

She's flying across uh you know I guess the Atlantic. >> Does she I mean is this Uriel? Is this Elijah? Does she name who they who they are? >> No. The angel. >> Yeah. >> No. No. >> Because the stories we see that story a lot. >> You know it's really interesting. That's right. So it it tracks with all the stuff that I've read and that's why I thought it was so interesting. And the so you know I mean when historians and when people generally in my field work there are some great analyses of Maria of Agradet out there.

Um but they're they're never going to be talking about the paranormal or the the kind of extra weird stuff. They they see it as kind of like a a story to initiate conversions. That's how they see it. kind of perpetrated by the Catholic Church. I don't really see it that way because once you get into the actual documents, they just don't it something just doesn't make sense. Now, I that doesn't mean that it couldn't be that because I can't explain why, you know, this kind of thing would happen, but I can say that it tracks with the other world journeys, you know, kind of thing that I study. >> Um, you were there to see the flying s.

Was that Certino? >> Yeah. Joseph of Copertino. >> What's his story? >> Okay. So, all right. So, Joseph is a same at the same time as kind of they they're around the same time period in the 1600s. >> I don't I I think that's important. >> It is important. Yeah. >> You know, it's almost like the angels are on mission. >> Yeah, it does seem like that. >> And taking people around like, "Hey, while we're here, let's go check.

Let's see what Joseph. >> Yeah, it's really interesting. So, you know, part >> the stories cluster, don't they? >> Yeah. >> Time historically. >> Um, yeah. So, there's a great book out there called They Flew, uh, which is by Carlos Ay, who's an academic at Yale, and >> that's a good archive. >> Yeah. So, so he his book talks about the worldview of that time period of Joseph's time period. Uh, but he didn't have access to Joseph's trial record, which I actually strangely have.

We got that translated because I don't translate 17th century Latin and Italian, which is what this big archive is made from, is uh, written in. And the first thing you notice, uh, first of all, it's huge. It's like um if you were to print it out, it'd probably be like the Vatican sent me the printed out one, by the way. And it was like I don't know, four feet. Like just >> what? >> Yeah. Yeah. It was crazy. I I have it.

And I also have the digitized version. >> Wait, you have the original one? >> No, no, not the original one. No, they digitized it. >> Okay. >> And gave it to me um to translate to get it translated. And so I had to get a team to do that because I couldn't do it. Um, and it was a team because not one person could do that. >> So it's it's an incredible document because it talks about not just his first of all the document itself had this is during the time period of the Spanish Inquisition.

Yes. >> And if you said you saw someone levitate, you were under suspicion. Now so all these people though said, "Oh no, he levitate. I saw." and you know all whole towns. And so what you see is you see maybe thousands of signatures the on this document the first like just kind of corroborating that he did do this and all these people saw it and not just their signatures but who they were >> that's really sticking your neck out to sign that. >> Yeah.

Yeah. It absolutely is. Yeah. Yeah. >> So he was levitating. What's his what's his story? Why did he levitate? >> Okay. So Jo Joseph is a interesting person because he's described as a person who's not particularly intelligent. Okay. So he's um these are the descriptions. He wanted to be a priest but he couldn't hack it because it was hard [laughter] but he became a priest. And the how he did that was by pure uh just determination of wanting to do it.

And so after a while, people the the hier hierarchy were like he seems to have a vocation to do this. Let's just let him, you know, let's let him in. The problem with him though was that he could discern things. When I say discern things, this is like the Catholic version of I can read your mind, right? He can discern your soul. And he seemingly could. So if you read through the document, there are so many places where a person will say, I was on my way to church and I was thinking about this and when I got there, Father Joseph said this to me, Padre Joseph said this to me and that was what was in my mind and I don't know how he could have known that. >> They they burned people for that. >> Yeah, that's right.

So a lot of things happened. By the way, Teresa of Avila has some um she's another doctor of the church who's a sister who or a nun, I'm sorry. And she also had levitation experiences. >> Didn't they censor her story? I know her story. >> Um there were certain parts of it that they censored. Yeah. But I mean she had people who were uh her editors. Let's call them editors, not redactors, right? Editors. So they edited certain things. >> Yeah. >> Why did what did Joseph say?

Why did he levitate? >> Okay. So he would levitate when when he certain things would in initiate his levitation. They would always be ecstatic. He he would go into ecstatic transes. And so those kinds of things would be like Mary, the mother of God. >> Yeah. >> And so he would just if something initiated this, he went to church and they were singing a certain um hymn to her, he would go up into the church and people would try to hold him down. that he would be that he would embarrass the the parish priest, you know.

So, he the thing is that most of these people did not want to levitate. Even Teresa did not want to levitate. Of >> course not because it was like weird, right? You're hanging out and all of a sudden you're like boom, you know, going up and doing these things and people would try to hold them down. The strange thing is that >> now this is what I find fascinating is that because once you read enough of these accounts, you can actually see recurring patterns that are weird.

Mhm. >> And one of these is this idea of a private gravity. That's Arthur C. Clark's term, by the way. This this idea that, and if you know who pointed it out to me, this man named Michael Murphy who's a head of this institute called the Esin Institute. He was very interested in this information because he noticed that people could do these extraordinary things in sports. He was like, "How could they do that? That's superhuman." He goes, "Diana, you need to figure this out by looking at the saints." And so when a person would touch Joseph, they would fly up with him.

Um the >> not hanging on, they would just >> they would just fly up with him >> because they're in his >> Yeah. They were some Yeah. They were in a microgravitational universe of sorts, which is weird. But same thing with Teresa. People would try to hold her down, but they would go up with her. >> Why do you think whoever they is or he is wanted them to levitate? Okay. So, uh the case that I studied that's the most recent one where we actually have video and so forth of this would be I write about it actually in the others called uh it's a it's a Marian apparition site in a place in Spain uh an autonomous region in Spain called Gabendal.

It's San Sebastian Gabendal and it's between 1961 I think and 1964. And these four girls also have these like levitation experiences where they also have this kind of same gravitational um I don't know what you call it space around them. Um okay. So you ask about the intelligence behind it. That's what you're asking. Yeah. >> Um >> I couldn't I don't know. >> Speculate. >> Okay. Speculate. Okay. So what I can ascertain is that these are happening within this is my field.

So it could happen in Buddhism and I just don't know about it. It could happen in Hinduism I just don't know about. >> There are stories of Buddhist levitating. >> Yeah. So those I don't know about but I can speak about what the intelligence behind the Catholic cases wants and what they ask for which is really interesting to me. So they're asking for very ordinary things that people don't do. Uh fasting once a week. Fasting happens to be super good for you.

Okay? They want you to fast. Okay? Why? They also want you to lead a good life. Like not be mean, right? Basically do the ten commandments treat and the other commandment treat others like you want to be treated. Basic stuff. Uh pray. Okay. Another thing that you see in every traditional religion, this idea of praying. why what's up up with the same praying um so that's what I started to focus on was that what is it about these practices that changes a community changes a human being and it does change human beings actually so um there's so much now on the internet about intermittent fasting and you know what well that's what this Virgin Mary is asking people to do intermittent fast for once a week right >> well I mean if you fast long enough and you're deep in prayer or meditation then that kind of opens up certain channels in your brain to experience different things. >> That's right.

That's that's what's going on. So that's what So she asked the whole community in the 1960s to do this and they did. They were a a community that had no technology. So they had been living in like a medieval lifestyle up until the 60s. Okay? So they had they were in the mountains. They hadn't been touched by television and that kind of thing. They were very Catholic. So they were doing, you know, rosaries every day and so forth.

So when this happened to the girls of their community, they believed and it was when these girls had these apparitions, all the people would come out. So there were like 300 people. They would all come out and this would went on for years. This >> for years. Years. Yeah. Years. >> It wasn't covered by the media. >> It was it's very covered. So uh in Catholic cultures, uh a lot of Catholics know about Garand Doll and a lot of Catholics believe in it.

People do pilgrimages there. the church has not approved it, you know, because it takes a long time for good reason for the church to approve things like this. Um, but but it's it's not against it just says be discerning if you go there, if you do a pilgrimage there. >> When at what point did you realize reading all these accounts that it sounds a lot like a close encounter? >> Yeah, this was shocking. So I'd spent my uh formative years as you know a professor and a grad student and so forth studying these right and being really immersed in studying these kinds of events and contact events and so forth and you know most of that work was done in archives and I wrote my book published it it did well um and I got tenure [laughter] and so I had being in archives What I noticed was that there were instances where people back in the day like 500 years ago, you know, Catholics in France or something, you know, um would see aerial phenomena and they would be shocked just like people are shocked when they see something and they rule out drone and airplane and that kind of thing and they're like, "What's that?" And so they had the same experience and then they would interpret it.

They would say, "Oh, it must be a soul from purgatory. Maybe we should pray that soul back into purgatory." Things like that. So, I took note of all those things, not knowing what they were, thinking they were strange. And I thought, hm, maybe someday I'll study those, but you know, I had this book to write. And afterwards, after I finished with my book, I was going to be on to writing about this this really cool priest in the Carolinas named John England in the 1800s.

I was going to write about him. And but I never did, and this is why. So I showed that list to a friend of mine and you know just randomly we were having coffee and I said you want to see this list I have and I showed it to him and I said what do you make of all that stuff and he said this is like this looks like Spielberg films these are UFO events and I was like I thought it was crazy you know I was like get out of here.

So that week though this is how this stuff works. That week there was a a a muon like a mutual UFO network meeting uh of experiencers in my town or close to my town. So I I went to that and I saw people talking about their experiences and I thought okay yep these definitely sound like that >> they do. >> And that's when that was my first shock but I still I didn't believe in UFOs. Okay. So that was my first shock though.

So, did you go to Muon just with your arms folded like look these cooks? >> No. Okay. No, I went to understand like what was going on >> because something happens to some of these, not all of them, but some of them. >> Yeah. Yeah. I wasn't going to discount it, but I wasn't going to be a believer. You know, it took takes a lot of evidence, right, to make a person a believer in this. So, so that so that was shocking though when I when I saw the continuity because the historical continuity was what shocked me and then I was I I was talking about it at American Academy of Religion conferences, right?

Of course they all know about that. Like they're like, "Yeah, yeah, that's that's a good project, Diana. You should do that." >> Oh, they didn't try to dissuade you. >> No, no. American No. People who study religion, they're they think it's cool. Okay. They're used to that. Like, think of what we study. we study angel things and you know things that like aren't supposed to happen. So they thought that it was a good idea.

Um and it within religious studies it's it's been done many times, right? Uh what what made it different though was that I started to get uh correspondents and visits from people who were from aerospace companies and the government and they were interested in my research and they were like we want to see the data that you have and I thought why why do you want to see the data that I have and so I showed them you know and that's when I realized that our government was actually studying this as believers not as what my position was.

Let's take a break there. We'll come back. We'll talk about what the government wanted you for. >> All right. So, before we we get into your your recruitment, >> tell me the story about the bittersweet. >> The bittersweet. Yeah. Where my dad had Yes. Okay. Wow. Wow. Gosh, you've got like some awesome questions here out of the blue, right? That I would never have anticipated. Okay. So, my dad was in the Coast Guard in the 1950s.

So he was uh you know high school grad uh 18 enlisted in the uh Coast Guard and so he became the sonar person like he learned how to do sonar and he was uh we just more found out about this by the way because of Admiral Tim Galidet who uh is an admiral in right the Navy and so he's doing this really interesting work where he's going back through the logs of people in the Navy like and people in the Coast Guard like my dad and he's basically identifying UFOs in that, you know, or usos, right?

So, uh, you know, UFOs at sea. >> So, this is when I'm a kid. So, I'm a kid and I'm really young. Like, I first hear about it probably when I'm like three or four. And my dad is is a an attorney. So, first before that though, he was I know it sounds weird. He went to medical school. So, he's this educated guy who doesn't >> I have friends like that, medical school and law school. >> Yeah. It's crazy. Yeah. So, I guess he just during medical school he he didn't really want to do that, right?

So, it seemed kind of depressing to him. So, he became a lawyer and he's a guy who doesn't speak very much. He's like a one of those guys who just doesn't talk that much, right? And um but when he does say something, you pay attention to it because it's a rare time when dad talks. >> So I remember growing up hearing this story probably about three times. And my dad says that he was on the ship he was on. I just learned that he was on two different ships.

So the bittersweet is one of the ships that he was on. I guess it's like a cutter. >> Okay. >> And the other one was also a cutter, but I don't remember the the name of it. So he's on probably the bittersweet, but I'm not sure. and he's in the waters near like Alaska and they're looking for probably Russian submarines. Sure. Okay. So, he's they're doing that work. >> This is the 50s. Yeah. >> 57 probably around 57. >> And out of nowhere he sees on radar something giant in the bot at the bottom of the ocean coming toward the ship. >> How big? >> Big like a football field or something like giant, right?

And so he freaks out, right? And as it comes to the ship, he said that a lot of the ships uh I guess it was electricity. I'm not sure, but a lot of the ship's functions stopped working. They just stopped and the ship couldn't they it stopped too. So they had uh they I guess they put like an anchor down or something and whatever it was made the ship stop and they were stopped for four hours and they were horrified like they didn't know if they were going to continue on.

They thought it was a Russian submarine >> but the biggest one they'd ever heard of. >> Yeah. They couldn't really imagine what it was so they just assumed it was a Russian some kind of Russian ship. Some you know submersive ship. Um and then it just left. it just went o away and all functions came back and then they were able to uh to resume. Now he never said anything like it was a UFO. He never said anything that it was a USO, you know, he didn't have that terminology.

He just said what he saw. He just gave us the data points, right? And of course, we were all like, "What was that?" You know, we don't know what that was. And so I remember that as and so then I meet Tim Galardet and I realized that my dad had been one of these people that had seen something at sea. So Tim reached out to me and he said can you tell me about you know about his experience and what ship anything you know.

So I so my family knows a lot apparently. So they knew a lot of things like my mother knew where he was stationed and the ship and everything like that. So, we gave that all to Tim and now he's looking for it. >> He's looking for it because there's records of that. >> That's right. That's He should be able to find it. >> And didn't like your brothers remember the story and everybody? >> Everybody remembered the story.

Yeah, we all remembered it because it's like kind of family lore, you know? >> Yeah. Did Did your dad eventually come around to thinking it was a USO? No, >> I don't think so. So, my dad died pretty young, but he um he did have experiences. So his father had um had a a cabin in the redwoods of California. >> Oh, it's Bigfoot country. >> Yeah. And so my dad said that there was a cre a big like crevice or something. Some kind of like, you know, um and my my grandfather would say now, okay, I'm going to give you another family lore UFO story, right?

But it doesn't it doesn't start off as a UFO story. So it starts off where my grandfather is he likes to tell stories. He's he and my dad are completely different. So my grandfather likes to tell all these stories, right? And we love to hear them. So he apparently told because I never heard it from my grandfather. I heard it from my dad. So my my dad told told us that my grandfather used to go hiking in the redwoods right in Northern California and in that area of the gorge.

Uh and I can ask my brother by the way so you can you know tell your viewers uh where where it is. Uh he used to see UFOs come out of the mountain right and we were like a [laughter] granddad saw UFOs coming out of that mountain. That's funny right? Okay, so that's the story. So years later, um, one of my brothers becomes a sheriff and then he becomes like a homicide detective. And so he's on this this homicide and it's in that area.

Okay. And so it's a it's a minor. So there it's a minor who's who they don't know what happened to him. He disappeared, they said. And so the people that said this were minors who were on the river and they had, you know, had a camp and so they gave the missing report and they said, "We think, you know, something bad happened to him." So it was up to my brother and his team to go looking for him and to find out what they could find.

Right. And so part of the data that they collected was that this guy was on a mission to go get photos of the UFOs that were coming out of the And my brother was like, I've heard that somewhere before and then he came and told us he was like, "Look at this." And and I thought that was a really interesting connection. >> Did he ever find anything? >> No. No. No. No. >> There was a mission. I've heard that story before about these guys that go into the woods and disappear or something happens and it turns out they've from the intelligence community and all of that. >> Isn't that interesting? >> Yeah, it sounds like an extraction not a missing person's. >> Yeah. >> Um so your comparative uh religious studies and then what you get a call from aerospace. >> Yes.

[laughter] It was so weird. Yeah. Not just from not just from >> a diff there are a few aerospace so people from various of these right >> and >> but it's government it's not Lheed doesn't call you >> not to my knowledge >> well I guess kind of they did but >> but it's government >> yeah so it's it's well there are yeah it's different aerospace companies right and so um honestly I think that it's really difficult ult to pinpoint like because the the credentials are so you know what would you call it slippery. >> Yeah. >> When you ask them you know what what do you do exactly you know it's slippery.

So I mean that's just how they presented themselves. So they were interested in the data. They were interested in the data on angels and they were interested in the data on the aerial phenomena that I had recorded >> that you recorded. >> Well no I'm sorry not in a video. >> Oh okay. This is old school recording on papers. >> That's right. I'm an archavist, you know. I'm like old school recording this stuff. >> How do they find out about you? >> I think because they must this is what I believe and I and I pretty much have evidence that is true is that there are certain people from who are who's who are tasked to troll the internet for anyone who's doing any kind of research in this area and they want that data.

So, I had been doing really low-key American Academy of Religion talks here and there on the rising belief in UFOs and linking it to kind of historic, let's compare it to historical contact events with angels, guys. This sounds like a fun thing to do, right? >> And then they saw that and so they were like, Diana, >> you know, so they reached out to me and >> how did they reach out? >> First, they just emailed me at my account, my university account.

And you didn't believe the email, did you? >> Well, I wasn't sure. >> Like, the email's got to be weird. Do they want like do we want to we want to talk to you? We want to buy you coffee or is it more aggressive like we want to interview you here at this day? >> Um, well, okay. So, at first it was first you have to understand that as a university professor, I would only receive emails from students and faculty. And so when you get an aerospace person saying, you know, and then you're like, you do your due diligence and you check them out and you're like, is this person real?

And then they look real. So you answer them back. They were just asking for my written records. So they wanted to see the data that I used for some of the publications that I did, which by the way, those publications are free >> on academia edu, right? And um >> they know that. >> Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I guess you're right. So um >> they want to know what's not in there. >> Yeah. They want to know like the what's the data used?

So I'm happy to give that to them. >> Why? Well, because at in the beginning, I wasn't quite sure why as I treated them like an academic. >> So with academics, you show your sources. >> Okay, >> that's what we do. We say, I got this information from this source and then that person looks at it and says, "Yeah, that's a a genuine credible source. We believe you." Right? So that's what we do. We share our sources with each other.

We don't hide them. Right? So, it was really shocking to me when I realized that like they wanted to see this, but they were looking at it like it was real. >> What was the What year was this first outreach? >> This was in like 2015, 2016 >> uh before Leslie Keane. So, >> yeah. Okay. Yeah. >> Yeah. That's another thing. It was my research was parallel >> to the government disclosure, pseudo disclosure. What are we getting?

I don't know. But that was not a thing yet. So my research was already well underway and it was on a track that was parallel to the government's whatever they were up to, right? And so we kind of crossed over and that's when I I got the term now is so misused but I got redpilled right on what was going on with >> the government and it was shocking. So I had first been shocked to see the historical continuity between religious events and UFO events and I thought okay seems like something's going on.

I don't know what but let's do some research here. And then to see the government doing it and I was like okay and then to see the extent of what was going on uh was very uh eye opening. So that that was a period of re um they call it ontological shock now. >> Yes they do. >> Yeah. So I went through that for like a year. [laughter] >> Did they communicate with you just through email? When would you when did you >> No, I started to meet them and um there were a few different types of people like uh depending on where they worked.

So this is around so I think it was around two I can't exactly remember the year maybe it was like 2013 2014 where I met Tyler who is a person who's associated with uh these kinds of this kind of work but worked for the government in various capacities. >> So this is before the email. >> Uh yeah I met him before before >> well how did he come across you? um he came across so he did reach out to me and he learned about me through this is I think it's part of his job was he trolled the internet right or he had people who did because he actually probably couldn't >> and so he figured out who I was reached out to me it took me about a year before I actually met him in person because I wasn't uh you have to understand just a super conventional boring professor here having this conventional boring life And this kind of stuff with the government weirded me out.

I was like, uh, I'm not sure I want to meet anybody like that. >> Why did he want to meet? >> Because, uh, I wasn't quite sure what the motivation for wanting to know all this information was. Like why? And, um, they were affiliated with like CIA, FBI, and I didn't really want that in my life. Still don't. Um, so yeah, so I just kind of wanted to keep to my lane. I was in my lane and I didn't really want to come out of it.

Um, I I I intuited danger. [laughter] >> I think maybe correctly. So he said, "What do you Let's get coffee or >> Okay. So he wanted to meet uh invited me to Cape Canaveral a couple times, you know, to see a rocket launch and stuff like that, >> but I declined to go." Okay. Even though it sounded cool, right? And then >> Well, I mean, that's that's one that's an approach is come down, see a rocket launch. I'm a cool guy.

It's all good. >> Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. No, I didn't go for it. Um, you know, um, so what happened was that when I did finally meet him, it was I bring up the American Academy of Religion a lot. I hope that they're okay with that. Um, but this is like a meeting. So, I I would attend these meetings every year. And this one was in Georgia, Atlanta, and he lived near there. >> And so, he said I said, "Look, if if you happen to be around, I'm going to be at this conference.

Maybe we could have coffee." >> Um, and then he said, "Yes, I'm going to be there." And so, I thought, "Oh, I better tell my friend Jeff that I need to to meet him with Jeff." Like, I didn't want to meet him by myself. Good call. >> Because I wanted somebody else to to like get a read on him, right? >> Is this Jeffrey Kriel? >> Yes. >> Okay. [laughter and gasps] >> So, so we did we met and um you know it was a really funny meeting too because we were it was the American Academy of Religions, a bunch of religious studies people.

They're all kind of like you know they're similar uh you know it's kind of like a conference for sci-fi people or you know we have our thing. Yeah, you know, you can identify them, but there's many of them. There's like 600s of of them there. And there, we couldn't find a place to eat. And so, um, he said, "Well, I'm at, you know, this fancy hotel and why don't you come and I'll buy you lunch, right?" And so, we just called and got us a place.

And so, Jeff was like, "Wow, that's kind of out of my price range kind of thing, you know, for me, too." And he's like, "No, I got the I cover it." Yeah. And so, you know, immediately Jeff liked him and I was like, "Come on, Jeff. You know, keep keep up the, you know, you got to you got to be suspicious here, right? We don't know about this guy. >> He's kind of nice." >> Yeah. He Oh, he was taken in by him. Yeah. So, that was the first meeting. >> I picture like an empty restaurant like, "Oh, I bought out the whole place for us.

It's just us here." >> It was kind of like that. And that's when I first realized that he was wearing all kinds of uh like uh surveillance devices. like he was wearing stuff on him that took video and he said and he said that to us too. So as we were done with lunch, we had a great lunch. We we were going back to the conference. >> Wait, what is he wearing? Like a body game? >> I don't know. All kinds of stuff. [laughter] You couldn't even tell though.

And he said and he we were walking across the street. It was really windy. and he kind of grabbed part, you know, like where maybe one of these devices was and he's like, "Oh, well, I'm all decked out with this, you know, this video and stuff." And I'm thinking, I took notice of that. Like I I think that's weird, right? >> He didn't mention that during the lunch like, "Hey, I'm recording all of this." >> He probably was like, he would seem to record everything and Yeah, I know.

[laughter and gasps] >> All right. [snorts] So, he was Yeah. >> Oh, he should he should disclose that. I don't like that. >> I think so. >> Yeah, >> but Well, he did, right? >> With the wind. >> No, I know. [laughter] I know. So, I told Jeff that as we were walking out. Uh, and that, you know, he went his way and we went ours. And I said, Jeff, like, didn't you hear what he said? And he was like, "No, what'd he say? He's really nice.

We should invite him to this conference." And I'm like, "Oh, [laughter] >> maybe he'll take us out for dinner." >> Yeah. >> Um, is that when Tyler invited you for to go to the desert? >> Yeah. So there was a kind of like this standing invitation to the desert which again took me a long time to say yes to. >> What did he say was out there? >> Okay. So he was he noticed that the way I studied this topic was not from a belief perspective. >> That's why you're interesting. >> Yeah.

And so he wanted me to be a believer. And so he said and believe like I believe people were having these experiences. Isn't that enough? No. He wanted to show me physical proof. Right. And of course at this point I had read all of Jacques Valet's work. I know Jacques. You know I was all and you know he was so helpful to me. He was like don't believe anything Diana. You know he was telling me this all the time. He's like people will show you a body do not believe it.

Right. Jacques. So early on like 2012. >> And so I had the Jacques Valet kind of framework going into this. And so I was like, he's going to show me something, but no way am I going to believe it. Right? So, but I'll go out, but I'll only go out with someone. I'm not going out on my own, right? Seems kind of creepy, really. You know, like he wanted me to wear like this is a legitimate place that he was talking about.

He this and a place that he excavated, right, with people over many, many, many years. And it was he this is what he told me about it. He said it was and I believe that this is a place that Jacques talks about in Trinity because it was after he met him and went out there that he wrote Trinity. Um but I don't know I don't know for sure. Okay. Um because a lot of course a lot is being said about the place and so forth. >> Yes. >> And also I got information from various people that was that said >> yeah just don't talk about that place [laughter] but how can I not?

I wrote about it. It's in my book. So, um, >> yeah. So, he did take us out to this place that he said was a crash retrieval. It, you know, UFOs crashed there in the 1940s. >> Hold on a second. Okay. Sorry. >> Did you get on the plane and where you land in Albuquerque? >> Yeah. >> And when when did he say, "We're going to blindfold you." >> Okay. So, he described the whole process to to me and I decided to bring Gary Nolan with me.

Right. At the time, Gary, his name was um James. His He's since come out as himself. >> But you invited Jeff and said no. >> No, I invited Jeff. Yeah, but um it was outside of his comfort zone. >> Well, yeah. I mean, I've read that you won't go into a haunted house, but you'll be blindfolded by a government official to go out into the desert. Your line is weird, man. >> Yeah, that's right. Well, I didn't think anything was haunted out there. >> You can't blindfold me. would be blindfolded.

That's crazy. >> I didn't think it was that weird. >> Did he at least give you a heads up or was this like another recording thing like, "Oh, when we get there, you're going to have to for security." >> Oh, no. He gave us a heads up. >> Okay. So, it wasn't like a surprise like here, put this on. >> I mean, I had to go through like two years of like getting, you know, having my getting numb to the the weirdness of it, right?

So, two So, he invited me early on. >> How persistent was he during those years? >> Oh, no. We just bring it up every once in a while, you know, and say, "Remember, we could go out here. It's, you know, these people have been out there and, you know, we get this is this will make you believe because you'll see evidence for it." >> Did he tell you what you'd see yet or just evidence? >> He said it would be physical material. >> Okay.

So, how >> I mean, I'm clear in my book. I basically say, "I don't believe this, but these two guys believe it, and they're really smart." >> Yes, they are. Um, [laughter] so you're out there with Gary. The uh the blindfolds are on. They come off. So you're out in the desert at a crash site. >> An alleged crash site. >> And this is all alleged. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Um because as we were talking about earlier is I was wondering how you don't know if you're not being used by >> Oh, no.

I I put that in the book. >> Yes. Because part of what happens to people, I see it happening now, >> is that they're shown stuff, right? There's a lot of people and they're shown stuff now. They haven't read Jacques Valet. They haven't read the whole history of eupfology. You have to do that before you endeavor on any of this or you will be fooled. >> Yes, >> you will be fooled. So, I think people hear my story, but they don't read the they don't actually read what I say.

So I honestly am writing an academic book and this is for people who are in academia and we are talk you know I'm talking about this as a rising belief system but I know that this is a curious rising belief system because there's so much real disinformation in it. So my position is it's all data like if he's trying to dis disinform me this is also data about this rising belief system. So I had to completely shift the normal way of doing religious studies.

I had to incorporate known known unknowns, right? I had to incorporate the idea that there that I'm being actively targeted for disinformation all the time. And this could be that. Um but you know who do I have? I've got Gary Nolan and he can figure out if this is real or not. He's going to bring it back to his lab. I've seen his stuff in his lab. I've been to his labs. He's legit. >> Well, when you're on the site, what what's what do you see on the ground?

What do you I mean >> Okay. Sure. Sure. >> Is there a UFO under a tarp? >> Okay. No, no, listen. Listen. Okay. So, all right. So, we So, we uh I introduced Gary to uh Tyler. >> Tyler takes him to that Air Force place, right? and they have some really amazing things there and kind of shows him all this stuff that makes Gary recognize that this guy is hardcore >> like and Gary's like okay you know he's got there's scientists there that are better than these scientists you know and he's like okay what's going on so he's beginning to see a bigger picture and so um >> and Gary would know >> he totally would know yeah so then so good I'm glad that Gary wants to go and do this with me because he's the right guy to do it Yes. >> Okay.

So, we go out there and we take the, you know, we put the blindfolds on and stuff is funny. We make jokes and stuff and we go for like 40 45 minutes. Uh, we could tell it's kind of rocky territory. And once we get there, uh, he's like, "Okay, you could take your blindfolds off." So, we take the blindfolds off and we get out of the car. And by the way, we have to wear like uh there were like rattlesnakes out there and so forth.

So we have to wear like sunscreen because it's high desert. We have to wear these boots. So we're like outfitted out. We look pretty ridiculous, right? So we get out there and I look around because it looks kind of familiar to me. And and so he notices that and he says, "Does this look familiar to you?" And I was like, "Well, yeah, it does." says, and he goes, "That's because it was on the one of the seasons of the XFiles." And I was like, "What?" And so that's when it started to make sense to me as a scholar because then I was like, "All right, this is like real life, you know, this is what this in a lot of ways, religion is like this that it starts with kind of like an event that you can't prove, but then it gets reinforced through media.

Religion has always been this way. It's been either images you see in church or books or stories. And so I was like, "Okay, this is ground zero of this new UFO belief, right? And I'm on it right now." And so then what my job was was basically to watch these two scientists who are complete believers. And I Tyler's a believer. He's not honestly I've known I knew him for so long and I got to see parts of his life that were so um you can't make up kind of stuff, you know, like phone calls he'd take and stuff and I could tell like he's totally a believer.

Um and so is Gary. And so they were both like so we had metal detectors configured for the area. Um, and so we spent like all day looking for this stuff. Part there were parts buried under things. And so we got this stuff that to me looked like uh frog skin, right? And so a bunch of that stuff and they put it in bags and they labeled it and everything and they we were going to take it back with us. >> You're wondering why it wasn't already collected so and taken somewhere. >> It had been collected.

So the thing is is that they couldn't get everything. So when we got out there, what the first thing I noticed was that there was rubble everywhere and it looked like kind of rusty rubble, like red colored. And I didn't know what that was. And Tyler said that this was dis disintegrated cans um from the 1950s when the government was out there getting everything. And then they wanted to put that down there so people with metal detectors couldn't go out there, right, and get the stuff.

And this was a this was actually something that my editor wanted me to take out. So, I described it because my editor, she's from Oxford, right? She's a editor editor with Oxford University Press. And she goes, "That doesn't make sense because this is you're out there in the middle of nowhere. Why would the government put a bunch of cans out there just letting them disintegrate?" >> Is it obvious? >> Well, I I mean, I told her I said, "Listen, I don't know, but that's what I saw.

I saw this rubble and this was the explanate explanation that Tyler gave to me. So, we have Yeah, we have to keep that in there. Yes. As data and she she went with that. She she was so wonderful, by the way, because uh because I had a lot of weird things to to describe, right? And so, she was okay with it. Well, no, she wasn't with everything, but she was like, "Okay, all right. We could keep it in there." And I'm glad we kept it in there.

No, that's I mean that's I think it's important to keep that in there because it shows an act of cover up. >> It shows something. Um I've since had people tell me that it was just something that the government did, but it had nothing to do with UFOs and that was, you know, I've had other people tell me things about what it was. It doesn't matter really because again from my perspective, from a religious studies perspective, documenting a rise in belief in UFOs, it doesn't matter if it's if it's really what Tyler believed it was or not.

What matters is that's how it fit into his narrative. Yes. >> And that's what I was describing. >> So the frog skin, did it look strange or did it just look like more pieces of metal? >> No, it looked strange. It looked like um it looked shiny and iridescent. >> Iridescent >> with pebbly stuff on it. I mean, it literally looked like frog skin. You know, a frog that has that kind of skin, kind of rough pebbly skin. Um I've talked about this in podcast before and then I've had like end I've heard that there were endless like dis discussions with Gary about this.

We finally put it to rest on a podcast with Chris. I forgot his uh last name, but there's a podcast out there that where we meet and discuss it. >> Maybe Chris Ramsey. >> No, no. Um he's an air he's a pilot, ex-pilot who's in uh Portugal now. >> Okay. So, did Gary ask to take the material or did Tyler offer it? >> All along we knew that Gary would be taking the material to study it. >> What did Gary find? he found uh for that particular material uh right now well in the beginning uh there were stages of what Gary found.

Okay. So in the very beginning he found that the isotopic ratios were really crazy and and he and Jacques had lots of communication about this and I was privy to that some of it at least and then uh later they were like like that when I'd asked them about they were like >> they didn't want to talk about it. >> I don't know let's just say I don't want to say like it just was kind of odd. So I just kind of like Okay. >> Gary is probably obviously available that certain isotopes won't occur here. >> Yeah.

Uh and so that's why in the end like that's why when I talk about it in the book I I quote him where he says this could not have been made in this universe. And I was like are you sure you want to say that? He's like yeah. And I was like okay. But later on changes >> on this planet. >> Um well he's well he's since said other things about it. So it's ongoing research I guess. Okay, I'll just put it I'll let him talk about that because I don't want to have any disagreements or anything.

I'm just talking about what I put in the book and what I experienced when >> That's okay. And if you get some details wrong, just go read the books because they're great. Anyway, do we did we get a um um like a metallurgical analysis of of what >> Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Well, of course, Tyler already had all this. >> Yeah, he already knew all of it. >> Yeah. Well, no, not all of it. So there were certain things that Gary could provide that he did not have the equipment to figure out. >> Tyler didn't have the equipment. >> I'm pretty sure that's why he [snorts] was opening it up like to like p well let's just say like other types of scientists than the kind that he was utilizing to figure out what it was because maybe they hit a roadblock.

I don't know. This is all speculation. It >> of course it is. Do you remember the the components? >> No. If I were a scientist, I would remember, but I am not a I am not a scientist, so it doesn't stick in my memory. >> It's interesting that you talk about a belief system. >> Was it Young who said how interesting it is to be a part of an emerging belief system? >> Yes. >> That's what he said. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. 100%.

It's not going away. >> So, who are the apostles, the disciples? Who is Pontius Pilate? Who are the Romans in this story? Well, [laughter] right. So, I would say that we all know who the Romans are, right? Who do you think they are? Give me >> I don't know. The >> What's What's Rome? >> The military-industrial complex. Rome is the empire. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> The empire based on old beliefs. >> Yeah. There's still, by the way, in order certain things stuck uh uh stuck out to me, and this is in order to answer that question.

I noticed that in the rocket launches that Tyler would do, like he's a mission controller. That's one of his jobs. Uh they would use uh on their rockets, they would put up Roman gods and goddesses and they would utilize uh first century Latin. And I was like cuz you know I would notice that. And so I asked him once I said why are you utilizing Latin? He didn't even know it was Latin. He's like what? >> He didn't. >> No.

He didn't know it. And I said, "This is this is not medieval Catholic Latin. This is like first century Latin." And and so I wanted to know. Um so that indicates that's an answer to your question. >> Well, it is. I mean, if you look at the NRO mission patches. >> Yeah. Yeah. There you go. >> It's Yeah. It's all Latin and and and Roman gods and esotericism. >> Yeah. >> Uh yeah, it is. So who are the disciples? >> I think that I don't know but I think the disciples would have to be like the experiencers people like the experiencers today.

That's what makes it a different religion because a different form of religion because we have different architecture now that we live within. We live within digital architecture. So a person who sees a you know UFO or something will video it and they'll put it they'll upload it onto Instagram or something like that right and then you know you have all you have many disciples you don't just have like 12 you don't just have this many you have I don't know millions.

So it's [clears throat] a different kind of belief system. It's a different kind of religion. >> It it is but it might be compatible with some of the older ones. Oh, there's a continuity. >> Yeah. >> Let's I I know we don't want to get too specific about Tyler. I mean, you you you've basically named him over the years, but that we're not going to do it today, but I would like to hear about what it's like if you're Tyler trying to go through an airport.

How is that different for him than it is for the rest of us? >> Yeah. So, he has um abilities, right? So he's [laughter] conferred these abilities and one of them is that he just is able to go through airports uh because of what he does. I don't I you know um Okay. I don't know why but he he does have that ability. >> That idea is magical. >> Yeah, it is. It opens doors. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. So uh I witnessed this many times and one of which was when we went back from Albuquerque.

So, we were we were in New Mexico at the alleged crash site. Uh, we did the thing we were supposed to do. We got the stuff and then he told us what was going to happen. >> Okay. >> So, he said, um, we first off, I did not want the stuff. I was like, you take it, Gary. He's going to take it anyway, but he's like, "Okay." So, he says, "I'm I'll put it in my backpack and I'll put it, you know, I'll wrap it up and everything." And so Tyler says, "It's going to be identified." and >> the alien metal >> is going to be identified and they're going to take apart your backpack and they're going to let you go, but you know, you're just going to have to go through that and it'll be all right.

And so we were like, you know, Gary and I were actually talking like when we were out there, we would kind of confer. I was like, do you think this is disinformation, Gary, and stuff like that? He's got it could be. Yeah. And he goes, but you know, I'll be able to find out, right? And I'm like, yeah, yeah. Well, okay. So anyway, so the same thing. We're like, "Ah, is this gonna happen? I don't know if it's gonna happen." And so we get back to the airport and he goes to the other side.

He gets a glass of water and he sits down and he's just going to hang out there and wait. And so Gary and I are both going through uh Gary gets identified. But it's not just your normal kind of it's like some kind of like thing that goes off like like a alarm. And so they take him to a room [laughter] and apparently they do exactly what he said. They take everything out and ask him what he's doing, where he's coming from, what, you know.

And so I get through, I find Tyler, I sit down and I'm kind of worried about Gary, you know, I'm like nervous. >> Was Gary nervous? >> Gary was super nervous. He was super nervous. So we were I was nervous. Gary was nervous, but Tyler was not nervous. So Gary gets done and he's like really shaken up and he sits down and I like get something to drink. So he gets something to drink and he he kind of describes the situation and yeah, so that's that.

Anyway, so yeah, he can get through airports easily. You once asked um where you were concerned if you were the SCOP there. I mean, the reason that's interesting to me is Tyler could have just brought that material through and nobody would have He doesn't get searched, you know. He doesn't go through the the conveyor belt. That's right. He made Gary do it. Why did he do that? >> Yeah. Well, let's see. You think that?

I mean, it could be that. So, absolutely, it could be. >> You didn't see Tyler go through a metal detector? >> No. >> He was waiting for you. That's right. >> He goes He goes around the other way. >> So, they wanted He wanted the spectacle. >> Yes. He wanted the spectacle. >> Of course. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. any idea why the purpose of the spectacle? >> Well, I I mean it could possibly be that obviously he wants to uh raise you know he's interested in having people because many times I asked him why are you know you know that I'm writing a book about this.

I mean, so many times I said that both to him and Gary and they were like, "Yeah, you know, Gary's okay with it." And he was okay with it, too. And so I was like, "Okay, you know, they're okay with it." And honestly, I thought maybe 10 people would read the book. I didn't think it was going to correspond with this, but um correspond with what the government's doing right now. And so um you know I well that's the thing AJ is I wrote the book with recognizing that it's that possibly this is and I write it in the book and I say look this is possibly misinfo in the first paragraph I say whatever you read about this is