BBC Prime Ministerial Debate 2024 | 26th June 2024 (Day 35) transcript

presents the BBC Prime Minal [Music] debate in 9 days time one of the two men standing here will be prime minister tonight they go head-to-head welcome to the BBC Prime ministerial debate [Music] good evening welcome to Nottingham and to Nottingham Trent University of venue for this debate with the general election just over a week away tonight Rishi sunak and K starma are about to spend the next hour and a quarter answering voters questions they are the two contenders for prime minister their positions on this debate stage have been decided by the toss of a coin they do not know what the questions will be those will be coming primarily from our live audience here at the University who have been chosen by the pollsters savanta they include supporters of the conservatives and of Labor as well as some undecided voters s and we will also have questions submitted through the BBC's your voice your vote website after 75 minutes of debate we will have analysis from our spin room which is also here on the Nottingham Trent campus and that is where Laura curg and Clive myy will be talking to other politicians and also to fellow journalists and so to the leaders Rishi sunak and Kia starma welcome to you both it's very good that you're taking part in this with just over a week to polling day uh welcome let us begin straight away with our first question and it is from subar Le people are dismayed by the lack of integrity and honesty in politics today after the recent allegations about political betting how would you restore trust in politics thank you very much sue for um kicking us off now both of your parties have faced allegations in this Regard in recent days we know of five conservatives being investigated and one labor Rishi sunak or Sue I completely share your anger I was as frustrated as you are Furious when I learned about these allegations that's why alongside the gambling commission we initiated our own internal inquiries into what had happened and as a result of that have suspended two candidates and I've been Crystal Clear anyone who has broken the law broken the rules should not only face the full consequences of the law I will ensure that they're booted out of the conservative party k d uh s thank you very much for your question which I think is on a lot of people's minds this question of respect and integrity in politics and you have to lead from the front on issues like this I think over the last 14 years politics has become too much about self- entitlement and MPS thinking about what they can get for themselves and one of the important choices and the thing that I would like to do if I'm elected prime minister is to reset politics so that politics returns to public service in relation to these gambling allegations uh the Instinct of these people to think the first thing they should do is try to make money uh was the wrong Instinct and we have to change that but it is also a question of leadership because this isn't just um you know what's happened this week uh last week in the gambling commission we saw party gate earlier in this Parliament the Prime Minister himself was convicted and fined for breaking the rules which he brought in and imposed on everybody else and of course we've seen what happened with the covid contracts and the huge amounts of money that were made this takes leadership what I did when one of my team was alleged to have been involved and investigated by the gambling commission they were suspended within minutes because I knew it made it really important to be swift the Prime Minister delayed and delayed and delayed until eventually he was a bullied into taking action if going lot of let me let me get a response let me get a response K St to those accusations it was important to me that given the seriousness and the sensitivity of the matters at hand that they were dealt with properly and that's what I've done we had an independent internal inquiry into what happened have taken action and suspended the candidates involved and I've been crystal clear that they should face the full consequences of the law but K starma talks about leadership in politics that's what Sue's question was at it was a broad question about how to do that I also think leadership means being straight with people it means Having the courage of your convictions not changing your mind on every single position that you've taken and being upfront about what you want to do for the country that's not what K stor is doing he's not being honest with everyone about his plans to raise their taxes I think that will ER TR STI to the heart of the question first of all because it was spot by the recent allegations about political betting and Sue asked how you would restore trust in politics so if you've acted now on those to withdraw support from those two conservative candidates what did you find in that investigation well M you know there's an independent investigation which is ongoing which is why I can't say anything further about that you will understand that but when we had our internal inquiries when we found found things that were not appropriate I took action and suspended the candidates I've been crystal clear this I was Furious to hear about these things that's why I've dealt with it but the choice of this election is about as Sue said it's about leadership it's about integrity in politics and that has a question about doing what you say you know the Karm has made this broader point but the point is he's changed his mind on every major position that he's taken he doesn't have the courage of his convictions and is not being straight with everybody now about his plans if he wins power to raise people's taxes that's not going to do anything to restore trust in politics and that's a choice for everyone at this election continue tax cuts with the conservatives or k st's tax Rises which he is not been straight with everyone about again to return to the question K St the labor candidate from whom you've withdrawn support um appears to have beted on losing his own election has do you know if any other candidate has placed similar bets in this campaign well he he was as you say uh investigated by the gambling Commission because he bets on himself to lose as soon as the commission said they were investigating I suspended him um and I've made very clear to my candidates that I expect high standards in politics I said last week that the prime minister should have taken decisive action and I said last week should one of my candidates be investigated by the commission then they would be suspended and their feet wouldn't leave the floor and that's what I did and so my candidates know I expect the highest standards and that I'll take decisive action if they fall below those stands I am back to S Point absolutely determined to return politics to Public Service do you know that none of your other candidates for our country do you know that do you know that none of your other candidates have play similar bets well I I've made clear to my candidates what the standards are and they've seen uh by my actions what the consequences are if they fall short of those standards but the Prime Minister hides behind a process he could have taken decisive action last week even the week before but he eventually got round to it when he bull bullied by other people into doing it that's not leadership and he talks about integrity I'm sorry when you get convicted for breaking the covid rules which you imposed on the rest of the country you really shouldn't be talking about integrity in politics well leadership means being straight with people about what you plan to do I've set out my plans clearly and I appreciate actually that not everyone's going to agree with me on everything but at least you know where I stand now K sta is not being straight with you about his plans to raise your taxes I don't think that's leadership I don't think that people should surrender their family finances to the labor party and that's the choice for people at this election well let me just address that if I may because we have set out in our Manifesto all of our plans they're fully funded they're fully costed and we've set out that we will not be increasing income tax uh National Insurance or vat what the prime minister is doing he's got he's got a Manifesto that's got promises to you and everybody watching which are unfunded because his chancellor has said that the money he's relying on has already been spent now that is the mistake that Liz trust made that's what cost so many people so much across this country and now we've got to repeat unfunded commitments lots of promises promises promises promises but where's the money coming from the chancellor himself has said the money was spent last year it isn't available that's a and if there's five more years of this we're going to have the same as we've got now a cost of living crisis bearing down on people across this country really struggling because the economy is broken and this is the chance at this election to turn the page and start to rebuild our country with a stable economy okay well Michelle just what the chancellor did this morning was ask his opposite number K st's Shadow Chancellor to rule out raising all your taxes beyond what they've already announced in the first budget and the shadow Chancellor wasn't able to do that today that's what the chancellor did today but you don't have to listen to me just go online go to the telegraph website because we've just found a recording that they have put out there from the deputy Chancellor from the labor party admitting that their plans will cost hundreds of billions of pounds cost all of you thousands of pounds of tax Rises that's why I say k St and the labor party are not being straight with you so do not surrender to their tax Rises let me just explain this is a reference to Darren Jones The Shadow Chief secretary to the treasury one of your senior treasury team who in a recording given to the daily daily telegrapher said decarbonizing the British economy will cost hundreds of billions of pounds we've set out in our Manifesto what we want to do to go to renewable energy and we've set out how much that will cost exactly how much is going to be put in and we've got a column saying how that's going to be funded yes it is absolutely right that we want to get in investors to come alongside that government money and we've been talking you won't be surprised to this to Global Investors for the best part of two years to say that if we put down this money set out in our Manifesto will you come alongside it and put down many more billions of pounds so that in partnership with the government we can make the change that we need when no no let me just finish this I'm sure we're going to come back to the same thing L I do mind I'm going to get to the next question of just be straight with people how many hundreds is it I'm to is it 400 I think the Prime Minister must have put best on how many times he going to interrupt me I do want to turn to the next question because lots of people are waiting and they've got important questions that they would like answers to if you can hear any noises off um ladies and gentlemen or anyone at home there is a protest taking place outside which is also an aspect of our democracy and people exercising their freedom of speech our next question here comes from Mary Armstrong evening I've worked two jobs since I was 18 and I'm now 60 and I think too many people don't understand how important and better it is for you to be working hard I also think too many people are on out of work benefits my question is what are are you going to do to help more people to come off benefits and back into work Mary thank you very much um for that K starma what are you going to do to get more people off benefits and into work yeah can I first agree with you that um work is of course about pay and being able to pay your own way and you know support your family but it is also about dignity um and respect and my dad worked in a factory all his life he was a tool maker and having a secure job for him was really important to his respect and integrity in relation to um those that are at work my rule is this if you can work you should work and we should we've got a plan to get people into work working with businesses to support people in I think we need to change the job center and the career service because at the moment when I ask businesses if you have a vacancy are you going to the job center to get that vacancy filled they say they're not so we need to do that the other thing Mary that we absolutely need to do is to get the waiting lists down in the NHS because very many people aren't able to work or to work in the way they want because they're waiting for an operation because of the catastrophic level of waiting list under this government so let's let's hear your first response richy sunak to the to Mary's question what are you going to do to get people off Mary there's a clear choice for you and everyone who believes like you do the situation isn't right because if you want lower taxes and lower welfare that's what I'll deliver if you want higher taxes and higher welfare that's what K sta will do so I strongly agree that people are better off in work it's not just for the Financial Security it brings you it's about the purpose the dignity that it brings to people which you alluded to and I strongly agree with the number of people currently out of work on ill health and disability benefits is too high it's gone up by 800,000 since the pandemic it's gone up by 60% the bill in the last few years we've got to do do something about that I made a speech about this a few months ago I set out a comprehensive plan to reform the welfare system to tighten it up so that those who can work do work we're stricter about those eligibility criteria that's fair for all of you who are working hard paying your taxes it's better for those people and that's what I'll do but when I announced that and just again recently K starma and the labor party opposed every single thing that I set out to deliver what you want every single thing they do not think that you can save a single penny in the growing welfare bill that's what their numberers show what they the choice for you is clear if you want no You' Tien up higher taxes and higher welfare is what you will get with K let me we actually have a related question so I'm going to bring in Beverly McKenzie now I've worked all my life but had to stop due to illness disabled people people like me get hit in the worst way when we want to get back to work and help but often we can't how will candidates ensure we're not punished by benefits and benefit sanctions thank you very much richy sunak so you've said you tighten the system you'd be stricter what does that mean for people like Beverly yeah sorry what was I I couldn't quite hear was it is it Beverly Beverly Beverly I actually believe in a compassionate welfare system that supports everyone who genuinely needs it and you saw me do that during Co making sure we've got support to the most vulnerable right that will always happen under a conservative government always happened under me but what we won't do is have a system where people are not supported into work if they can work so what we're going to do is make sure that we reform the fit note sick note process which isn't working it's signing far too many people off as not fit for work we're going to look at when you asked about benefits and sanctions we're going to provide active support for people into work but I also think that if people have been offered jobs that they can do and that they don't take them then that's not okay so after 12 months what I've said is we will do something about that if your job coach says to you look there's work that you can do that everyone agrees you can do there's a job for you that you're fit enough and well enough to do and you refuse to take it I don't think that's fair on everyone else after 12 months of support so we will tighten that up I think that's fair for everybody because fundamentally I think that those people who can work should work that's I think a fundamental tenant of fairness in our system which most people will agree with that's why I think we can save money in the welfare bill because it's forecast to Grove at an extraordinary rate over the next few years and I want to use that money to support your what is what is wrong if you believe it is wrong what Rishi sunak is saying that if someone has offered a job and they can do that job and they turn it down that's wrong no there's nothing wrong with that and I just want to address you opposed it when I announced it you literally opposed it if you listen to people in the audience across the country more often you might not be quite so out of touch Beverly B can I just address the point you make because it's a really important point which is very many people with illness or disability do want to get back into work for the very reason that was alluded to before the respect the dignity um and you know the support that it gives them but it's difficult to do so because they're worried about whether they can do it and whether um you know they'll last a period of months so what a number of firms are doing businesses and I've being to see this myself and I support this is having a supported scheme where people could be supported back into work for a number of months to make sure they can make that transition and get back into work I think that's a really good scheme that's what we would put into place but I do have to address this question the Prime Minister keeps saying he's going to TA he's going to cut taxes he has raised tax 20 six times nobody's raised more tax this prime minister question about tax this is a question about getting about getting people back to work so the numbers have risen considerably since the covid pandemic the numbers of people economically inactive due to long-term sickness has risen to 2.8 million so how would you but how would you you are seeking power what would you get those numbers down to through the approach we talking about we want to get the numbers right down we want to with a plan to get people back into work partly that's supported partly it's the uh we want to make to the job centers to make sure that where businesses and public services the NHS doesn't go to the job center when it's got vacancies they should do so we want to merge those two services but the other thing if we're going to get people back into work is we have to tackle these terrible waiting list because nearly 8 million people on the waiting list and so it's not their fault that they can't get back into work it's the fault of the government that's put us in this terrible position we have to address these there's there's a very clear choice and the very clear dividing line I I think you've got to change the eligibility criteria in the welfare system you've got to make it clear that people who can work should work that means looking at all the gateways we have and actually being more rigorous about asking people people to provide medical information when they're making these claims reforming the sick note process being stricter about saying to people who don't accept a job after 12 months that that's not okay those are all the Practical things that I've set out I think that's fair now K sta can stand here tonight and say what he wants when I made that speech and you can all go and read it and see what they said they opposed every single measure just a two weeks ago they were asked about it they said we oppose all those measures so it's one thing to stand here and say all these things you should at least be upfront with people you don't think my Approach is the right one you are going to have higher welfare under you and that's why you can't deliver tax cuts the way that I can should not surrender to this will the Ware the minister says he going to these things they've been in power for 14 years why has he only just thought of this with a week to go before the general election honestly if if there's that much wrong with the system who's the guy in charge of the system over the last 14 years why is it so bad well you want to be in charge but you've got nothing to say to people about what you would do about it this election is about the future will the wealth Bill be higher under you K arm no it needs to come down it needs to come down by getting people back into work with a clear plan and it needs to come down by tackling the waiting lists so that more people can get back into work which is why one of the first things that we will do if we're elected in to serve our country serve being the word I chose is to put in place 40,000 extra appointments NHS appointments each and every week that's 2 million a year to drive down those waiting lists to give people the comfort and operations that they need and to allow them to get back into the economy so that we can grow the economy which is the thing that's been missing so desperately over the last 14 years what what what K was not telling you is actually most of the people who we're talking about who who asked about originally aren't on an NHS waiting list so talking about that isn't an answer to this problem the answer to this problem is actually being stricter about the eligibility criteria making sure that everyone who can work does work because that's fair to everyone like Sue who is working very hard and putting in that's what I will do I promise you I will deliver on it we will cut the welfare Bill the growth in the welfare bill it is unsustainable we spend too much on it I've set out a plan to do so labor oppose all of it so the choice for you is simple if you want higher taxes and higher welfare that's what K sta will do if you want lower taxes and lower welfare that's what I will do do not surrender to our welfare system to the labor party in K I'm going to turn to our next question on that note and this one comes from Steve Curtis uh good evening all uh we're an island why can't we easily close our borders thank you Steve for that question K stama uh Steve the biggest threat to our borders at the moment is the very many people arriving by small boat over the channel and they're at record numbers since RIS became prime minister 50,000 people have come across by small boat uh and the government has has effectively lost control of our borders and that means it's not just a border security issue it's actually a national security issue because the government's lost control of who's coming and what their background is now I think that nobody but nobody should be making that journey across the channel and we have to smash the gangs that are running this bile trade there are gangs that are making a fortune putting people into boats across the channel an absolute fortune and I think they can be taken down and Steve before I was a a a a politician I was the chief prosecutor for England and Wales so I ran all criminal prosecutions in England Wales in all of our Criminal Courts and we had to deal with terrorist plots and other plots drug plots um and gun plots which uh were across various other countries we group together with police and law enforcement across Europe and we took down those terrorist gangs I've seen it done I've been part of the operations to do it I do not accept I will never accept that the only gang that apparently can't be taken down let to because we haven't we haven't heard from him yet on Steve's question which was where's where an island why can't we easily close our borders Steve you're right to highlight the issue it's completely unfair what's happening when people come here illegally jump the queue it not only puts pressure on public services it not only threatens our security it's an affront to that sense of fairness which is fundamental to our national character and that's why I've made it a priority to stop the boats we have made progress the numbers have come down over the past 12 months compared to the 12 months before but in order to fully solve this problem you need a deterrent we need to make it crystal clear to people that if they come to our country illegally they won't be able to stay and that's why if I'm your prime minister on July 5th the flights will go to Rwanda we will build that deterrent that multiple other European countries now agree is the right way to deal this problem and that's how we solve this problem if Kier starmer is your prime minister all those illegal migrants will be out on our streets and that is the choice for you do not surrender our borders to the labor party Steve this is complete non on the numbers just one moment just just one moment I want to clarify something small boat rals did come down last year but arrivals so far this year are at a record high it's more than 13,000 people have you lost control as K St has said no the numbers have come down over the past 12 months as you acknowledge Mich but the way to solve this problem is to have a deterrent and look I tell you this the Rwanda plan is a deterrent you just have to listen to what the illegal migrants themselves are saying one of the just said most of us are still in France due to the fear we have about Rwanda another one said I won't cross the channel until the Rwanda plan is destroyed if labor win the people Smugglers are going to need a bigger boat don't surrender our borders to the labor party the you would scrap the record numbers have come under uh this prime minister's watch record numbers coming across the channel and he says it's a deterrent there are a few hundred that would go on a flight to Rwanda a huge expense to the taxpayer there are tens of thousands 50,000 people have come since R sunak has been prime minister 50,000 across the channel a few hundred going every year means there's a 99% chance you're not going to Rwanda now I've worked with criminal gangs Rishi sunak I know that they are telling the people they're exploiting there's a 99% chance of not going to Rwanda that is not a disincentive that is not a deterrent and it's not working if it will working why are record numbers still coming under your watch prime minister how on Earth can you say it's working you put the scheme in place the flights could go off I notice you've called the election by the way before any flights could actually get off and it could be tested an interesting timing but if this was such a a deterrent why is it obviously obviously not working you spent all this time when I first got this job saying call an election call an election then when we call election you spend all your time saying why why did you call an election this is about the future I can tell everyone what I'm going to do with illegal migrants who come to our country they will be on planes be sent away cuz they shouldn't be here what will you do with the illegal migrants that arrive to the UK what will you do with them you've had three weeks to think of an answer what is it we've got tens of thousands of people here who've come unlawfully the Prime Minister says he he'll send them all to Rwanda the Rwanda scheme takes a few hundred it would take literally 300 years to get all the people here unlawfully to they're going stayed what would you do so at the moment they're not being processed so they sitting in hotels which you are all paying for they're not processed and as a result of not being protested that means not a single one even those that shouldn't be here could be returned anywhere so once they've got here under the Prime Minister scheme they're here for life that's an absurd situation to have got into so yes we do need to process what you do with them we've got to process the CL you're sitting there with tens of thousands of people just ilal migrant come to of people process well what will I can tell people what I will do with them I will put them on planes to Rwanda they shouldn't be able toay what will you do with illegal migrants who come to our country what what will you do with them it's a simple question his plan is what will you do with them they need to be processed at the moment processed they're not these which means which to be clear will mean most of them will be given Asylum they will get the right to remain in this country the moment 100% of them are effectively uh being granted asylum in this country country because they can't go anywhere they can't go anywhere they cannot the Prime Minister knows this and if he thinks I'm wrong he should say so because they're not being processed they cannot be returned to where they came from can they prime minister if he wants to correct that it now is his chance to do would you know where these people come from he's not answering the question where they come Iran can see Syria Afghanistan so when K starm says he's going to return people is he going to sit down you going to sit down with the Iranian Ayatollah are you going to try and do a deal with a Taliban it's completely non sensical what you are saying right you are taking I mean you are taking people for fools right I think that these people should not stay on our country they will be on planes to Rwanda that's what I will do you still can't answer the question what will you do all all the tens legal migrants who arrive will be processed and put on planes to Rwanda ,000 is that that is the choice for you if you think illegal migrants should not be country they should be sent somewhere else to build Teran I will deliver for that for you do not surrender our borders to K stor and the labor party this situation will just get worse we will become the soft touch of Europe and as I said the other night they are queuing up in Cal waiting for a k to be bo so you will send tens of thousands of people who are here and out of the Asylum system at the moment you are promising to send them all to Rwanda have a number of flights from July through to build this deterrent that's what I've always said the principle here is I don't think people who come here able to stay you talk about this as if you care about the issue but this is you when you ran for the labor leadership which wasn't very long ago you promised to protect free movement you said you would close you promised to close detention centers for illegal migrants and you boasted in that letter of getting illegal migrants more welfare like that's what you actually believe and that's why you can't trust them on this issue so I say it again do not surrender our borders to the labor party I'm very clear that what we need to do here we need to get our security to Without Borders back they've lost control 50,000 people have come we've got to smash the gangs that are doing this in the first place but smash the gang you know what I really want to address this Mich we pass a law in Parliament people back their own mind right you're right we do have to smash the gangs what does that mean we pass the law in Parliament we passed new laws so that our law enforcement agencies could use them you know what they've arrested a thousand criminals and people Smugglers they've sentenced them to hundreds of years exactly as you would expect us to do that's what we did do you know what the labor party voted against that law so when you you stand there and say smash the gangs like on every other issue you say one thing you do another you just don't know which K stor you're going to get you can't trust them on this issue do not surrender our borders to him this is the difference between me and the Prime Minister before I did this job I was running the crown prosecution service I was the director of public prosecution and it was my responsibility to take down criminal gangs on behalf of everybody in this room everybody watching to protect the country so I know that this can be done you share the data the analysis the intelligence you have to have a strategy to arrest everybody at exactly the same time you need to know what evidence is going to be used in which court where and which country is going to have the lead on the prosecution we did it to take down really dangerous terrorist gangs there was one gang that terrorist gang that involved bringing down nine planes in the Atlantic at the same time with bombs that was one of the cases that I had to deal with as a prosecution a very different kind of it no no no but these were very sophisticated terrorist the question question very simp don't accept this be done for the G that are running this people Smugglers that are spending hundreds of years in our jails because of the laws that the conservatives passed when it came to it the labor party opposed those laws they voted against it so when he's standing here before you tonight saying yes he cares about this he's going to do about this just look at his record this is someone who defended free movement he campaigned against the dep Tred do not surrender our borders to him thank you both for your responses and I'm going to turn now to our next question which comes from Muhammad mabarak shik hi you have both made lots of promises but you haven't set out a clear plan to pay for those promises where is the money going to come from you both made lots of promises you haven't set out a clear plan to pay for those promises where is the money going to come from Rishi sunak well actually we talked about it Muhammad in Sue's question I think it's right that we make savings from the welfare bill because it's forecast to grow at an unsustainable rate I don't think that's right I don't think that's fair set out a comprehensive plan you can go and have a look at it online and those savings we will use to cut your taxes and what I want to do is cut taxes for people at every stage of their life so for everyone in work we're going to continue cutting National Insurance £900 this year for pensioners we have the triple lock plus we will raise the allowance delivering a tax cut for pensioners making sure that the state pension is never subject to income tax if you're a young couple wanting to buy your first home we're effectively going to abolish stamp duty if you have children you're a family we're going to expand the generosity of child benefit right these are the tax cuts that I want to deliver and if you're a small business owner an entrepreneur we're going to abolish National Insurance for the self-employed so those are the tax cuts that's how we're going to pay for it and that's the choice for you at this election you can have tax cuts with the conservatives or you can have thousands of pounds of tax Rises under the labor party because he's simply not being straight with you about what is coming mark my words your taxes are going up if he is in charge K false but Muhammad I'll answer your question um everything in our Manifesto has so we've set out all of our plans it's a Manifesto for growing our economy for creating wealth to make sure our country is better off and that everybody within the country is better off it's got clear columns setting out how much each of our plans is going to cost and then a column saying where that money is going to come from so that everything is fully costed and fully funded we got very strong fiscal rules because we want economic stability which is what we've been missing in recent years and the reason for that Muhammad because this is really really important is that we know what happens if unfunded tax cuts are made because Liz trust tried that experiment on the country and we're all paying the price for that and when she was elected as leader of the conservative party rishy sunak said we should unite behind her I don't think we should unite behind her I think we should learn the lessons which is why I'm not prepared to allow an incoming labor government ever ever to inflict that kind of damage on people across the country because people are still paying the price many people on a mortgage now who've come off a fixed rate mortgage are now paying hundreds of pounds more because of the Damage Done to the economy but Richie sonak hasn't learn the lesson because his Manifesto has got commitments in there that are unfunded because his chancellor has said that the money he says he's going to use has already been spent and everybody knows you can't spend the same money twice going to go if we have more years of this we're going to go round and round in C just before you respond because each of you had a say on that just before you respond I'm going to make clear that Muhammad's not alone in thinking um that neither of you have set out a clear plan to pay for your promises the ifs Think Tank said this week that you are both both your parties are ignoring raw facts and that huge decisions need to be made which in all likelihood will mean either higher taxes or worse Public Services well actually the ifs also said that it's right to identify welfare as a challenge that needs to be addressed and the ifs also acknowledge that when the conservatives previously set out savings that they would get from the welfare Bill the ifs didn't think it would happen and in fact they were delivered and I'm sure BBC verify will put that quote on their website but look two years ago I warned repeatedly about what Liz truss's economic policies would do to our country even if it wasn't what people wanted to hear at the time I was right then and that's why you can trust me now that's why you can trust me now when I say that the labor party's policies will mean all your taxes are going to go up by thousands of pounds it is in their DNA mark my words your pension your council tax your home your car you name it they will tax it which is why he cannot rule out raising your taxes he's been asked multiple times will he change the council tax bans he won't rule it out I'll ask him again but I'm going to tell you do not Surrender Your family finances to labor taxis let me address this directly because the Prime Minister said he warned the country about L trust and the Damage that she was going to do to our economy and then in the next breath he said we must unite behind her and support her why on Earth would you unite behind someone that you say you know what it's like to fall in behind a leader of your party but but he's he's repeating the is repeating the problem is repeating the problem he said units behind her she's one of his candidates and his election pitch to you seems to be my predecessor a Tor uh prime minister broke the country did huge economic damage please vote Tor now you're going to have to decide whether that's persuasive he's now openly admitting the damage that the tourist have done to the economy and saying please vote for him that's the last in country straight forward when it comes to the economy I was right then and since I've been your prime minister inflation is back to normal the econom is growing faster than our competitors wages are rising energy bills are falling we've started cutting your taxes and I will keep cutting your taxes that is my P to you that's a choice at this election their taxes that he wants to put up on you are coming he won't rule out revaluing your council tax banss every pensioner that is watching should realize that under a future labor government for the first time in our country's history the state pension will be subject to a retirement tax under labor that's what their plans are those are the numbers black and white we're not going to do that we're going to have the triple lock plus but for the millions of pensioners that are watching be very worried because you're going to face a retirement tax food just don't insult people by putting out falsehood you mentioned the which which which one's the fal sorry can you can you confirm obviously has put a bet on inter to me has he pension be subject to income tax under a future labor government the only way for it not is for you to match our triple lock plus so you can change policy here tonight will you match our triple lock plus and ensure that state pension is never subject to income tax the the position on the state pension that we've set out is exactly a yes or no hang on we need to hear this response I think you should show some respect to the audience who want to know what I've got to say about this without constantly being interrupted it really isn't a way to do the debate what's the answer to the question about the position on pensioners and tax or pensions on tax that we've set out is exactly the same it is the position of the government at their last budget it is their position the Prime Minister now says oh I'm going to change that I'm going to change all that when ask where the money is coming from his Chancellor says the money is being spent it isn't there that is making the same mistake again can I just address the ifs point because I that is really you're a pioner you should know there is a retirement tax Coming For You capital r capital T if he is your prime minister for the first time in our going pay tax because he won't mat our triple plus if I'm your prime minister that won't happen and that's what I'll deliver for you as I say it again do not surrender your finances to their tax Rises you got a very brief response then I want to go to the next question well pensioners are not going to be better off with the Prime Minister who's making promises that he can't keep because they're not funded that's exactly what Liz trust got wrong we cannot there's one thing that we cannot repeat at this election please do not go back to Liz trust Mark 2 with this prime minister because the same damage will follow if you can't say the reason you can't you think you got of topics I'm to the that's why I can thank you this one is uh this next question is from Karen Duran good evening um I'm a children's nurse at a local hospital I see families affected by libraries and children's centers closing how will you you help councils after Nottingham City Council has effectively gone bankrupt thank you Karen and the council here has been run by labor since 1991 K stama yes and I'm very concerned about the situation because I think anybody looking at a council which has run out of money is concerned about the basic Services uh whether it's libraries or other support that councils have to put in place and this is a position for councils of all political Stripes there are conservative run councils that have struggled for money and gone bankrupt as well because of the lack of adequate and proper structured funding from the government you asked what we would do about it and I think it is important for us to set out what we would do if we came into office we would change the way the payments are made to councils at the moment Council leaders are saying they're made on a yearly basis so we can't make the most effective use of the money that's available to us if there are a longer term we could make much better use of that secondly um they're saying if you could do what the conservatives promised but didn't actually do which is to stop no fault evictions that would have a massive help for councils as well because when people lose their home through no fa of their own quite a lot of them end up having to have support of a local Authority I don't think we should have no fault evictions I think we should actually get on and get rid of them that's what the council funding a multi-year funding plan doesn't give more money necessarily does unless are you saying there is more money that would come to local authorities under a labor government if you go for a threeyear settlement it means the available money can be used better because any Council leader will tell you that trying to make the best use of the money within the constraints of a 12-month period doesn't work so it's better use of existing money but look I'm not going to stand here and say there's some magic wand that I can wave the day after the election and find money that isn't there huge damage has been done to our economy it is going to take time that's why our Manifesto is a Manifesto for growing our economy for creating wealth to making sure that we can make sure all of our Public Services whether that's councils or others um are properly funded providing the services that people you know expect and actually frankly deserve which is not response how will you help councils after Nottingham City council's effectively gone bankrupt Karen my first job in government was being local government minister so I was responsible for councils and they do an extraordinary job and much as people focus on National politics actually most politics is local it's what's happening in your street your neighborhood your community and the services that you mentioned are so important particularly those that concern families and children one of the things that I do want to do is actually roll out family hubs as we've been doing over the past few years which are special places where whole families can come and get the advice and support they need particularly the most vulnerable families again in terms of funding councils we've recently announced just over half a billion pounds of extra funding for councils particularly for social care which is where some of the big pressures are in children's services which you uh alluded to uh and will'll continue to work with councils to provide them the support they need but you mentioned Nottingham right and that is a glimpse of the future right Nottingham City Council bankrupt under labor Birmingham city council the largest Council in the country in fact the largest in Europe not just bankrupt but as a result everyone in Birmingham is now paying a 20% higher council tax bill and that is a snapshot of what will happen if K stor is in power and across the country as labor always do they run out of everyone's money they bankrupt the economy in 2010 they bankrupted Birmingham they bankrupted Nottingham and that's why everyone in Birmingham is paying a 20% higher council tax so that is just an appetizer of the higher taxes that are going to come under a future labor government do not surrender your local Council and our finances to them okay councils like working in thur were conservative when problem similar problems first emerged about that conservative councils in exactly the same problem what do you say about that I have to say prime minister gloating coun tax respons you have to believe me you can go and check as a result of their financial mismanagement the same thing happened in Nottingham right that's what you get with the labor party you remember what happened last time they were in office they run out of your money they bankrupt the country and you all pay for it in higher taxes and that is the choice for you at this election we are making progress the economy is growing taxes are now coming down the financial security that you want I can deliver but if we put all that program at risk with them your family finances are going to get hammered your taxes are going to get whacked up and that is the choice for you at this election do not surrender to their tax risers okay thank you both just before we get to the next question I'm going to remind everyone watching that we have got more questions coming in this Prime ministerial debate but online on the BBC live page you'll be able to see what BBC verify are already uh doing they're already factchecking and assessing the claims made here and will'll continue to do so throughout the time we are on air our next question is from Robert Blackstock good evening gentlemen Mr sunak I think you made a fair job of being Chancellor but you're a pretty mediocre prime minister Sakia I think that your strings are being pulled by very senior members of the labor party are you two really the best we've got to be the next prime minister of our great country Rich sudak well Rob look I can understand your frustration everyone's frustration because the last few years have not been easy we've dealt with a lot as a country I'm not saying we've got everything right I certainly would be the first to acknowledge that but I've been your prime minister for 18 months and in that time we've got inflation down from 11% % with all the damage it was doing to the cost of living back to Target the economy in the first quarter of this year fastest growing in the G7 wages Rising faster than prices for almost a year now and my primary job was to deliver that economic stability so I could start cutting your taxes that is the journey we're now on so whatever your other frustrations the choice for you at this election is about the future if you want lower taxes if you want your borders secure as Steve was asking before if you want a sensible approach to Net Zero if you want your pension protected with a triple lock plus that is what I will do for you right this is a serious election with consequences for you and your family I get the frustrations but think about the choice allow me to finish the job I've started cut your taxes protect your pension secure our borders because if K starmer and the labor party are in charge your taxes are going up our borders are going to be insecure you're going to be saddled with bills as he reverses my Net Zero changes and every pensioner is going to face a retirement tax for the first time in history and that is the choice that you should have in your mind K Thomas Robert um Robert uh earlier in my career I worked in Northern Ireland with the police in Northern Ireland as part of the workout of the Good Friday agreement and with a team I set out to change the Police Service in Northern Ireland to make sure that gained the confidence of all communities in Northern Ireland which was a really important part of the peace process so I went I said what we would do and we delivered I then ran the crown prosecution service for 5 years with 7,000 staff I said we would improve the way we dealt with violence against women and girls I said we'd do it we made the change and we got on with it and we made that change and it was more successful at the end I came into the labor party to lead it four and a half years ago and I said we will change our party to make sure that we are a party that can put a credible proposition before the country for changing the country and that will always say always say country first party second I've been there I've done it I've changed it what I'm now asking for is the opportunity to change our country for the better because we've had 14 pretty awful years 14 years when I think most people would say We've Ended up now with almost everything not working very well worse than it was 14 years ago when this government came in most people not feeling better off and this is a choice election because if we go on for another five years of this under uh rishis act that is not going to change that isn't going to change so this is the opportunity to turn the page to rebuild our country rebuild our Public Services rebuild our economy and make sure that we can genuinely say to ourselves we're a better country better run proper public services and people feel better off now I've done it I've done that sort of change my life and I'm asking for the opport to the question because I suspect that Robert Blackstock knows your background he certainly knows that you've been Chancellor he's probably familiar with your arguments and he still says are you two really the best we've got to be the next prime minister of our great country now polling does suggest that there's no great enthusiasm for the either of you you do you recognize that do you hear it on the campaign Trail you aware of that Michelle that's what I said I said to Rob I recognize his frustrations it's more personal than that isn't it he's talking about both of you but there's a choice for everyone right there's a choice for everyone right K starma talks about change you don't get change unless you've got a plan to deliver change just saying it isn't going to bring about any change and as you've heard tonight there's no plan to cut your taxes no plan to reform the welfare Bill no plan to deal with illegal migration right that's the reality of it yes there will be change it won't be change you like it will be changed when your taxes are going up when we become the soft touch of Europe for illegal migrants when pensioners are paying tax for the first time that's the change that is coming so don't surrender to that because your families are going to pay the price I I can I I think this question of enthusiasm is really important that you put to us because I'm not surprised that after 14 years of this um people feel that the Hope's been beaten out of them because the country is in such a state they've had loads of promises made to them at the last election about what would happen which haven't been delivered on that does beat the Hope out of people the very first question was about integrity in politics and again people haven't seen that Integrity you've had party gate you've had the breach of covid rules you've had the the the contracts for covid the Instinct of some people to think the first thing in Co I'm going to do is try to make money same with the gambling commission uh nonsense over the last few weeks so this is an opportunity um to restore that hope I don't think we can do that by making sort of grand Promises of things that can't be delivered I think it's the ordinary hope of working people my family was working class the ordinary hope of of getting on yourself getting on uh for your family getting on for your community and getting on for your country it has to be rooted if we're going to restore hope in my view in returning politics to service the sense that you come into politics to sir okay and on that note our next question which is from Rachel Webster good evening how can I ensure that if I vote for either of you two men you'll put women's interests first kiss Al uh thank you very much for that question I have in my team as partners with me very very good strong women that will deliver for the country Rachel Reeves uh would be the first woman Chancellor if we're elected into government she worked as you know in the Bank of England um and is very very keen and strong on the fiscal rules and what we need to do for our economy I've got you know Angela Raina my Deputy who again has an incredible background coming um from a difficult background where you know was a care worker for many years and now Deputy leader of my party and I'm very proud of her and you know these people and plenty of others IET Cooper Bridget Phillipson you name it really good strong women who'll be part of my team I think that leadership is about empowering your team and making sure it's a team on the pitch that are all batting and working together and that's the way I lead not suggesting for a moment that I'm the one with all the answers but knowing that if I lead my team and bring my team into this and we work as a team and will'll serve as a team if we get the opportunity to do so I will do with some really fantastic wonderful women who have been on this journey for me for four and a half years changing our party to put it before the country with that you know essential principle country first party second wish how would you ensure you'd put women's interests first yeah so I didn't catch Rachel Rachel Rachel you know probably the the easiest thing I can tell you is that I have two young daughters and that's why you can trust me because as a dad first and foremost rather than a politician or prime minister I want them to grow up in a country which is safe for them when they become teenagers and can walk around on their own making sure that we have the right place on the streets that our communities are safe for women and girls is really important to me I want to make sure that they have the health that they need and that's why we've been making changes to things like HRT and maternity care in hospitals but I also want to make sure that when they grow up and have jobs and start a family that they're supported to which is why we're rolling out 30 hours of free child care for every working parent from the time that their little one is 9 months old to when the Toddler goes off to school at four years and that will make a big difference to families up and down the country um but that's why I said so I can go into lots more policies but I want my girls to grow up in a country where the sky is the limit for their Ambitions there is nothing that they can't do because they're women and that's the kind of place that I believe in I'm going to I'm going to bring in a related question because this came to us via the BBC's your voice your vote website it was from Vicki in Oxfordshire who asks this will you protect women's right to Single Sex spaces from any and all males regardless of if they hold a GRC a gender recognition certificate Rishi sunak yeah yes unequivocally and we will do that by changing the law so that the all equalities act recognizes that sex means biological sex and that will allow us to deliver on what Vicki wants which is to protect female only spaces female only Services it's Crystal Clear for you there is a choice on that question at this election because K sta is not matched my pledge to reform the equalities act to pass new law that is the only way to deliver on what Vicki says and the reason he won't do that I don't know but he can explain is because he's not sure like I am that when it comes to these matters sex means biological sex and that's how you protect female only spaces and services K St yes is the answer to the question it's very important that we protect women's spaces uh I saw this firsthand when I was Chief prosecutor back in 2008 to 2013 I was working with groups who were supportive of women who've been subjected to domestic violence and sexual violence and so for myself just how important it is to have those women's spaces same in hospitals and um in sports so yes to that answer but what I will also say is that I do recognize that there are a small number of people who are born into a gender that they don't identify with and I will treat them as I treat all human beings with dignity and respect and I'll tell you for why I I'll tell you for why because if you don't you end up with the prime minister of the United Kingdom standing in Parliament making an anti-trans joke in front of the mother of a murdered trans teenager I will never ever allow myself to be put into that position that's not what I did I was pointing out that you've changed your mind on this question multiple times but to answer Vicki's question you can't deliver on what Vicki wants so everyone who does want female spaces protected has to be prepared to change the laws that the equalities act recognizes that sex means biological sex it's pretty straightforward now K sta says that he believes in that but he won't change the law to do it so he's not being straight with you again saying one thing and doing another you won't change the law to recognize that sex means biological sex so you cannot say to Vicki and everyone else who cares about this issue that you will actually ensure that their spaces are protected if he hadd been in as many support centers that I've been in for those that have survived um sexual violence and domestic violence he would know very well it is possible to do it it is being done I've supported it being done when I was Chief prose computer I've always believed in that principle of women's spaces um that's back going back to 2008 way before this latest iteration of the debate because I could recognize for myself just how important it was to have that space uh women only space um biological women only space um particularly in that area but also in other areas how do how do you ensure it just a second I mean Rich how do you ensure it without changing the equality provided for under the equality act it is actually spelled out as one of the examples given in the act it always has been and and fabricating uh a difference here in a situation where actually we should be trying to find common ground and work together uh I'm proud of the record of my party on women's rights we've done amazing things uh in terms of equality under labor governments made a massive difference to millions of lives there's much more work to do on women's equality going forward but the only way I think we can make that progress is if we change the way that we do politics stop this business of always trying to divide everybody and actually use the opportunity of leadership which is what I would do to say the job of the leader of the country is to bring people together these are difficult discussions different opinions of course but the role of the leader of of the country is to bring that together so that um the country itself is less divided one one of the issues for me um is the and with sadness is the fact that over the last 14 years there's been this tend on almost every issue to try to find the points of difference and division rather than doing what we're actually really good at bring before we move this this is this is about the courage of your convictions and principles right I believe when it comes to these matters sex means biological sex of course we should have compassion and tolerance for people who are going through questioning that but fundamentally when it comes to women's safety women's only spaces sex means biological sex for me that is the only way to make sure you can deliver the protections that Vicki wants and on this question K starma when one of his own female MPS made that point a while ago he said that she was wrong she was hounded right he said she was wrong now he's now changed his mind on that question that it goes back to trust it goes back to Having the courage of your convictions I get that not all of you will agree with my position right but I'm been clear with you sex means biological sex you have to change the equalities act to deliver the security of women's spaces and women Services that's what I believe the right thing for our country relates to one of your one of your MPS Rosie du the Prime Minister knows perfectly well that this is all set out in the equalities act already the specific instance of safe space it's set out read the legislation look at the notes under the legislation it's been there for years don't just use this as a political football to try to divide people across the country thank you very much for that we will we'll move on to our next question and this one is from judie Waters good evening jents I own a jazz vinyl record business with my partner post brexit we have lost 90% of our business with Europe how can we mend our broken trading relationship with Europe okay 90% of Julie's business with Europe has been lost now k you were a remainer Rishi sunak you argued and voted for leave how can we mend our broken trading relationship with Europe well Julie first of all thank you for doing what you do my mom was also a small business owner I grew up in a family that had a family business I know how hard it is I know what the struggles are like and our economy is built on people like you and you deserve all our support and admiration and praise for doing what you are doing I'm sorry things have been difficult right we had the referendum and now is focus should be on making sure we we make the best of all the opportunities in an economy-wide sense we're actually doing very well now exporting around the world but in order to help you I have two specific things that I can do that will help one of them is to make sure that we cut your taxes on business rates when I talk to small retailers like yours I I think you had a you said you had a a premises the thing that everyone talks me about is business rates that's why we've cut business rates for small retail restaurants pubs shops across the country and labor on Wales they haven't done that so everyone's taxes are going questioning the tring Rel second thing we do for you for all those people like you who are self-employed and others in small businesses I want to abolish your National Insurance so that you have more Financial Security now I'm the person that has made sure that we have good relations with Europe you can all see that and we will continue to do so but the best way I can help your small business and the hundreds of thousands of others like yours is to continue to cut your taxes because that's how we'll give you Financial Security that's the choice for you at this election he says he's going to cut National Insurance that's 46 billion P 46 billion has just been spent in the last minute without saying where that money is coming from that money on National Insurance is used for our NHS and for our pensions so prime minister if you're going to cut that money that National Insurance those 46 billion is it the NHS or is our pensioners they're going to pay for it so far neither of you have answered Junior's question which is about how we can mend our broken trading relationship with Europe let me address that because the Prime Minister says I think he just said the econom is all very well going very well I don't think millions of people across the country feel it's going very well I think they think they think it's going very badly and it's hitting them but Julie uh in relation to the EU I did vote to remain I campaigned to remain but we left and we've left the EU we're not going back to the EU but I do not accept that we can't get a better deal than the one that we've got because too many businesses are in the position you're in which is you know you put yourself into your business you you put your money into your business you take huge risks for your business and I think you should be supported so we want to uh arrange to get a better deal in trade relations with the EU I think Boris Johnson botched it he just wanted to say he could get a deal uh across the line so we can get a better deal I think a trading deal I'd also like a better deal on research and development where I think if we work together it would be better for the country and a better deal when it comes to security and defense particular key for J is is the trade part so I want to ask could we get a sorry I'm just going to go back to the question could we get a better trading deal with Europe you know what you might be able to but you know what the price of it will be it will be free movement of people and that's what K starm is not been straight with you about right they might be able to sit down with the EU and the price of anything and I know because I've sat across them for the last 18 months negotiated The Windsor framework for Northern Island actually got us into the Horizon program for R&D all the things he's talking about involve accepting more migrants free movement by the back door that is the choice for you at this election if you want free movement to come back we Steve's question at the beginning about borders and migration right that is the price of any deal like that with the EU they have been crystal clear about that so if you want High migration fair enough I don't think that's right I want to bring the levels of migration down I will not do any deal with the EU that increases migration when we had a referendum and that is what I will deliver for you not more open borders there is a give and a take when you reach deals like this and perhaps the EU will ask for freedom of movement in return we not going back into the EU we're not rejoining the single Market or the Customs Union but we're not accepting freedom of movement but I'm not a migration in any form please let me finish answering the question I'm not a defeatist like the Prime Minister who says to Julie bad luck that's as good as it gets you'll have to go along with the problems you've got however hard that is for you I'm not in that I'm not going to say to you Julie there's nothing I can do to help you or to other people in the same position I'm going to say I know we can get a better deal than the Box deal that we've got and I'm going to go out and fight for it not going to have freedom of movement come back not going to go back into the EU but I'm going to fight for a better deal so you can trade more easily across Europe so you can succeed and our economy can suceed I believe in our country in in the 18 months in the 18 months I've had the job I've negotiated with the EU for the Winds of framework restored the government in Northern Ireland and strengthened our Union made sure that we are part of the Horizon scheme on positive terms warmly welcom by the entire research Community or universities I've got a track record of doing those deals with the EU but you just say you'll get a deal what what will it cost you're not being straight with with people I know what it will cost is more migration he's not being straight with you you think you just magic Magic's some good thing for us and they won't want something in return right it's just again you're taking people for fools they've been crystal clear the price of any of those things is greater migration it is fundamental how if you were the Prime Minister you would have to give something in return for the kind of deal you want with Europe yes but I think it's very important when you start those negotiations you're very clear the lines you won't cross and I've just set out the lines that I won't cross but I'm not a defeatist like the prom and nor will I say to Julie I won't insult Julie by saying it's all fine everything's working everything's great part of the problem we have with this prime minister is that his lived world is millions of miles away from the lived worlds of of individuals across the country the businesses and the families that they're trying to support there's a massive Gap that is a problem but again you you just won't rule out will you accept any greater migration as the price of a deal with the EU yes or no no I don't but I would say this that migration Norful migration is a record numbers under this prime minister he's actually the most liberal prime minister we've ever had when it comes to immigration the numbers have gone through the roof they're actually far higher than they were when we were in the EU so I really don't think you can start lecturing other people about higher migration they've never been as high as they are on your watch yeah what I can do is point out the choice for everyone at this election this year because of the actions I've taken the number of visas we've issued is down by 30% net migration is forecast to half in just the next 12 months because of of the measures I've taken because it was too high but I've been prime minister for 18 months now it's coming down sharply right that's a progress we continue if I'm your prime minister and will'll have a legal cap in Parliament to guarantee the numbers keep falling after that now if K starm is your prime minister you won't get any of that because he opposes those changes he won't have a legal cap on migration and it will go up right so that's the choice for your legal migration continue the progress we made for to half tap or open borders Surrender Your borders goes along he's making up as he goes along and in here hang on our question get BBC verified going to the next question just get BBC verified to check that that's no problem they they're already at work um our next question is from tasim Zahra hi evening I'm in my and it feels like universities in the UK are churning out students year on year yeah just just just start again cuz uh we we didn't hear the beginning just start your question again I'm in my 20s and it feels like universities in the UK are churning out students year on Year young people like myself have lost hope for if they will ever get a good job or buy a home many of my peers are leaving the UK and going to countries like Australia or Dubai what would you do to make me stay in the UK thank you T and this is going to be the last question and set of answers Kia starma what would you do to make tanim stay in the UK ensure that we've got good well-paid skill jobs here for you and other young people who I do think have been let down in recent years of government and make sure that we build the houses necessary to ensure that the dream of home ownership lives again because at the moment it's been killed under this government the average age for young people to get a house is in their 30s now I think it should be in the 20s and if we have five more years of this government it'll go up to the 40s but we've got to build more houses 1.5 million houses across the country that means tough decisions about planning and where those houses are going to be but we also need to deal with the verifi high rents that young people are often paying so many say to me I'm paying more in rent than I'd actually pay on a mortgage huge proportion but I can't save for the mortgage deposit that I need and that's why we will have a low low mortgage deposit scheme in place to allow young people first time buyers to get on the housing ladder but we've got to build the houses 1.5 million houses the Prime Minister has taken down the targets for house building they're going off a cliff sinking and that is taking down with it your dreams and the dreams of dreams of young people across the country who can't get the job that they want very often if they've been to college or university are returning back home we have to give them the future that they uh deserve that means that we have to go out with our Manifesto for growth for wealth creation and seize the opportunities of the future other countries are doing this I think we should be in the in the race for the jobs for the future I think we could win that race but also Roll Up Our Sleeve start building the houses that are necessary to make sure that you can afford to buy a house in your 20s not as it currently is in your 30s that's the tragedy of the last 10 years and it'll simply go up if we have five more years of the current government okay richy sunak Test's question everyone who's had the opportunity to own their own home remembers what it feels like when you get the keys to your first flat and it's incredibly special feeling I believe in a country where all young people can aspire to that and realize that ambition it's a very special thing I know it's too hard of course it's become too hard to buy your own home I've got two very practical specific things that we will do if I'm your prime minister which will help make it easier the first is to reintroduce a new form of help to buy you may remember this it means that you won't have to save for the entire deposit just 5% and then you'll be able to get a help to buy loan from the government which covers another 20% so that potentially can save you tens of thousands of pounds and the second thing that we will do is effectively abolish stamp Duty for firsttime buyers for the vast vast majority of first-time buyers we will abolish stamp Duty right those are two very practical things that will save you thousands of pounds now the reason that's important is when I talk to people like you the most important thing they tell me is how can you help me with a deposit because actually I'm probably okay and into a decent job and I can probably afford the mortgage right actually similar to my rent but what I can't do is save up for the question was also about jobs that young people have lost hope about getting a good job and by doing help to buy and abolishing stamp Duty we will massively be able to speed up how quickly you can get on the housing ladder and fulfill that dream of owning your own home I think it's incredibly important and as I said I don't want to give you waffle two very specific things helped to buy abolish jamp Duty neither backed by K starm and the labor party so again there's a very clear choice for you because if he's your prime minister stamp Duty for firsttime buyers is going up right that's what the plans are if he's your prime minister again we're back to the welfare debate I'm happy to have that again you don't think there's a penny to be made from welfare savings there we go for you help to buy help you get on the housing ladder a choice say the money's been spent it isn't there prime minister the money isn't there the chancellor not me your Chancellor said the money is being spent you can't fund things from nothing the money has been spent and this is why if we go on for another 5 years like this we're going to end up exactly where we are now or in a worst place we have to like bingh coun which are bankrupt everyone taxes and that means building those 1.5 million houses and that's what we're determined to do with a strong plan behind it already talking to the partners who will build those houses with us because I'm absolutely determined that every single young person in this country under a labor government will feel that the future is better for them for my parents it comforted them even though they had tough times as parents they didn't have a lot of money but the thought the idea that it would be better for their children comforted them and made their lives worthwhile we've lost that but we have to get it back because in the end the future is about our children and young people we have to build a country rebuild a country that is fit for them uh to live in and to absolutely uh re realize all of their aspirations and their dreams and I'm determined that we will do that i' say [Applause] as Tas your question is fundamentally the reason I got into politics right my grandparents immigrated to this country with very little two generations later I have the enormous privilege of standing here as your prime minister I don't think my story would be possible in any other country and that's why I feel an enormous sense of Duty and gratitude to our country for what it's done for me and I'm in politics to make a difference to make people's lives better and that starts with young people making sure you have the opportunity you need to succeed in life whatever you want to do wherever you live that's the type of country I believe in and when you get that job when you work hard I want you to keep more of your hard-earned money decide how to spend it for yourself I believe in a society that's aspirational that's why I want to cut your taxes it's not just a technocratic thing it's country I believe your work is rewarded your aspirations are supported that's what I'm in this to deliver for you and that's what I will do as your prime minister we are just about out of time in here that was the final fin question of the evening in a moment we're going to be joining Laura curg and Clive myy over in the spin room for some more analysis but before we leave you from here Rishi sunk and Kia starma are going to have 30 seconds each to leave you with a final thought and the order in which they will speak was decided earlier by a coints first to speak is going to be Rishi sunak I understand why you're frustrated with our party with me I get it but this is not a byelection it's a choice with profound consequences for you and our country and before you make that choice think what a labor government would mean can you afford to pay at least £2,000 more in tax and why won't K starma be straight with you about what he wants to do and if you are not certain about Labor don't surrender to them don't vote for any other party vote conservative that is a lie told not to repeat that lie and he's just done it and this is your closing statement K starm thank you my message to you is simple if you want your NHS back you have to vote for it if you want a growing economy you have to vote for it if you want more police on our streets more teachers in our schools you have to vote for it if you want to end 14 years of chaos and rebuild our country then that power is in your hands on July the 4th vote change vote labor thank you very much and that brings to an end this last head-to-head debate of the election campaign thank you very much to our audience especially to those who ask questions but you've all been a really important part of this and thank you also to the two contenders for prime minister this is the last time you're scheduled to appear together in this way and to answer questions in this way so we are grateful to both of you for taking part thank you very much thanks very much and the two men there so here