[music] Hi everyone, it's Anthony Caparino here again. Today we're going to talk about&M's commercial diligence practice. And in today's private equity market, uh, many firms are faced with countless challenges ranging from high levels of dry powder, intense competition for deals, and an evolving market. And in this type of market, commercial diligence oftentimes is the first step towards unlocking value creation. So today, I'm here with&m's US leaders for commercial diligence, Jen Holland and Liz Pearsons.

Jen, Liz, welcome. >> Thank you. Thank you. >> Um before we get into our conversation, maybe each of you can give a quick background on yourselves and then we'll get into our our discussion. >> Sure. Thanks so much, Anthony. So, Jen Holland, I have been in and around commercial due diligence for private equity firms for the past 15 years, spanning two different firms. So I started my career at the Parthonon Group which was quickly acquired by EY and is now EY Parthonon and then I joined Bane in 2018 and I was a partner in their private equity practice doing largely commercial due diligence pre-acquisition and then also postacquisition growth strategy work for our clients.

Very happy to be here. >> Hi, I'm Liz. Um, I have a very similar background to Jen in that I've spent the last 15 years also in commercial due diligence. All of that with Bannon Company. So, started off as a generalist and then sort of morphed over time to specialize in consumer retail and across some software sectors. So, Jen and I are um longtime industry depth experts in this business. >> Great. Welcome to you both.

For everyone out there, we're going to be talking about what's changing in the market today. how commercial diligence serves as a value creation lever and what all of you out there as investors need to know. So, first question to you both, what's the trend today in your opinions uh that uh people should pay attention to as it relates to commercial due diligence? You know, I think that it's hard not to talk about AI in, you know, in the relationship with commercial due diligence and frankly any professional services business today.

But often times the trend that you see people saying and and associating with with all of these different professional services firms is the belief that AI is going to make it faster and cheaper. It certainly will make some things faster and cheaper, but I believe that the narrative is not capturing the full nuance of the impact that we're likely to see. If we assume that commercial due diligence is only going to get faster and cheaper, that is also assuming that commercial due diligence is already the perfect product and already solving all of our clients needs.

And the reality is is the product is fully constrained by resources, data availability and time. And that has been one of the biggest things that's formed and and put together the commercial due diligence product that we see today and [clears throat] have have seen. Instead, I think that AI is going to impact our professional services world in very very different ways. You're going to see potentially a bifurcation of impact.

One will be very early in deal generation up the funnel where you're looking at things in a way that you can look deeper at it and faster at it than you ever have before. Um, say no to more faster, lean into the good stuff faster. But then when you get into the latest stage deal process where you're nearing a close, the demand for conviction around value creation and exactly what you're going to do post close is going to be the bar is going to be a lot higher.

And therefore, you're going to need the tools to be able to deliver that, but you're also going to need the senior expertise. So, I don't know, Liz, what else would you add? >> No, I I think that's right. AI is the obvious one. Um, that that impacts our business. I think we can do things in an hour that used to take us multiple days. Um, I think our clients are experiencing the impact in a couple of different ways. Um, I think there are sort of three main things.

One is in how they make investments. So thinking about the risk and opportunities created by AI and companies that they're looking at um and in their own portfolios. Two is how they run their own businesses um which is you know leveraging AI in their own internal processes and thinking about how to use it the best way. And then three is in how they interact with service providers like us and how they interact with commercial due diligent due diligence.

And I think the um you know what we aspire to be on the same level as our clients as we think about how to use AI to accelerate insights, outcomes, results, um and and sort of make everything better together. This is not Claude didn't exist when I started doing this business 15 years ago. I was, you know, picking up the phone and cold calling truck rental businesses, um which we will still do. So, to Jen's point, there's a lot that can't actually be disintermediated by Claude, but I do think that there's an obvious sort of accelerant in this business that Jen and I see and our clients are experiencing.

And and it's it's an important signal for us to work on how to partner better with our clients to leverage the value that AI can bring while still bringing the critical lens of human judgment to the investment process. >> Okay. So, so I heard a couple words that stood out. number one disruption. I think you've articulated both of you and that's today's market and then two uh Liz you mentioned acceleration. So when I think of those two words that's like a perfect environment for for how&m functions right we've been >> over many years.

So, so with that as a backdrop and and knowing knowing that that's a market that that favors our strengths, uh what attracted you to come to&m to lead the US commercial diligence practice? >> Those things those [laughter] things attracted us. But I mean but Anthony I mean you said it so well you know and and as we mentioned before and we spent 15 years in and around this this industry and this sector and you know we we are seeing this moment in time where not only the needs of our private equity clients are changing but also the environment in which they are working with technology and disruption is changing.

And and so as a result, we knew we needed to be in a place that was going to support some of that change and be fertile ground for that. And it's and it's really two things. One is structurally how&m organizes itself, which is incredibly unique. And it fosters innovation. It fosters change. It fosters the ability to be very close to our clients and understand what our clients need because we put ourselves as senior leaders closest to the clients and then we have autonomy and agency to build what they need.

And two, the the other major reason is that&m already has all of the full due diligence suite and it really CDD was the last missing piece of that. And so now we can truly be one-stop shop. Not one-stop shop in the sense of it's one invoice, but one-stop shop in the way that it's fully integrated. It's the way it's meant to be. Business due diligence across all of the different service lines, not just commercial verse verse ODD versus FDD, etc. >> Yeah.

I I think that the things that ultimately attracted Jen and me here were the ability to be really flexible um in what we offer our clients and the way we structure our teams and the way we serve the work. We see an opportunity for true partnership because we can be more nimble. We are we are building from scratch here. We're sort of zerobasing the the team structure. We're zerobasing the the skew structure, what we're able to deliver, what we're able to answer.

Um a and that said you know I I don't like to talk about AI with also talking about how important the human judgment layer is. We are still fundamentally at the end of the day humans helping other humans invest other humans money in management teams who are humans. Um, and so I think the, you know, the operator expertise that&M has and the heritage that&m has of being inside businesses in a way that other consulting firms have not with 30% of the 13,000 employees having either currently in interim management roles, having lived inside of businesses um or formerly former operators.

Um, I I think that combination is something that's truly unique to the business that that we're building here. you you've talked about AI and the changing landscape and and and maybe getting more information faster than than maybe you would have before the >> before AI came into play for CDD. And then you mentioned the human element, human judgment. So when you when you sit here today and you look at what uh a good commercial diligence practitioner can provide and and what those characteristics are in your opinion in today's market what makes a a really good commercial diligence expert? >> I mean a lot of it comes down to fundamentals that have always been true about what makes a good product. some of the things that you're mentioning which are you know AI enablement the human-led judgment I mean these are inputs to you know to the product what makes a good product has you know has long time been true it just hasn't always been something that you know we've been able to achieve and I think that if you put the right human judgment and the right tools we're going to get a lot closer to what we know good has always looked like and for us we've been orienting our entire build and our team around three things that we think good looks like.

Um, and in the backdrop of it, of course, is the flexibility that Liz mentioned, but it's really these three things, which is one, it's the willingness to take a perspective, a true point of view on something. I think too often we hedge because of time constraints and data constraints and you don't have perfect information. So, you have to hedge. But with all of these, you know, additional inputs and ways of thinking about this, we should be able to take a position because, frankly, our clients have to take a position.

They have to take a bet. And so, we're helping them understand what bet they're taking. A probability attached to it. For example, the the second is what what I had already mentioned, but it's really important is that it's integrated. It works with the other parts of it. So, too often because of time constraints, we're working in silos, which is not the full picture. and we need to instead be integrated because at the end of the day our clients questions do not vary by by service line.

The question is whether or not they should invest in this deal and what is the outcome of it going to likely look like. That doesn't change whether or not they're having a tax conversation or quality of earnings or commercial due diligence. Now the component parts may the pieces to that that answer may but the core question doesn't and so it should be integrated and the third is and this is an important litmus test for us is whether or not it is useful postclo too often we think our 300page decks are going in the trash and they aren't necessarily useful post close either because they're theoretical in nature and just not operational yet enough we should be putting together value creation road maps very early on that the operators can use postc close and we have to be leveraging our operator heritage to be able to get there but so for me it's really those three things >> Liz I know you feel strongly on things too >> that that's that's exactly right and and Jen is always so articulate um I I think the the utility of the CDD product is something that Jen and I have focused a lot on I think over time as the industry as the private equity backdrop and The industry has matured and as service providers serving private equity have matured, the market work offering has become more commoditized and not as targeted and helpful.

And our aspiration is to partner closely enough with our clients that we can really get to bedrock on how to make this useful for them once they've done the deal. Um and and I I think you know there was a long time where capital was was plentiful, assets were plentiful. Um you were really trying to steer your clients away from doing bad deals because there were so many deals out there to do and so few competitors out there competing for those deals that it was easier to kill a deal um and walk away from something.

But our clients now are sitting on unprecedented levels of dry powder as you mentioned Anthony. And I think the the challenge that Jen and I have tasked ourselves with is how do we help our clients lean into good deals and make them great. Um and and that's just a slightly different framing than the way we've spent our last 15 years of doing commercial diligence. And I think the integration and the operator expertise that&m brings to this picture will allow us to make commercial due diligence useful in a way that it hasn't historically been and that we're going to be able to help people make decisions as Jen said about how to do good deals versus how to walk away from bad ones.

Yeah, that makes a that makes a ton of sense and I think you both have done a good job articulating how a traditional commercial diligence has evolved over time but even in today's market and even more specifically how it will evolve here at&m. So ha having said that at what point in the evolution does commercial diligence begin to influence value creation and and how does a client take your findings and weave that into a value creation plan in in in in your experiences?

How and when does that happen? I mean, it doesn't happen soon enough in our experience. And it needs to happen a lot a lot sooner. And I think this is what we're hear. I mean, Liz and I have been speaking to so many different private equity firms over the past 6 months. And almost unanimously, we are hearing this need for value creation and a little bit of hindsight being 2020 around I wish we had focused on value creation sooner.

I wish we had built it into our underwriting case. If we don't put it into the underwriting case, our team doesn't necessarily hold the management team to it. Um, we don't have clarity around exactly what we need to change right away without it. So, frankly, I think the value creation plan should be built from day one, right? When you're looking at the asset for the first time, it should no longer be a conversation just about whether or not it's a good asset that you want to own. still an important question.

You still need to have the fact base. You still need to know if the market has some fundamental tailwinds or not and what could disrupt it. But you also need to know what in year one in the first 3 months are you doing to create value in that business as as a strategic owner of that business. And you know, we're seeing, you know, some firms have been doing that for a long time and other firms are waking up to the fact that they need to be doing that actively.

Um, especially as they're sitting on some assets that, you know, they'd love to be liquidating at this point or love to be exiting. To me, this is where the value of the integrated offering really comes to life because if you're able to institute that early enough in the process, >> you're all fundamentally working off of the same QV data book and using the same numbers. um the the revenue forecast and the pricing opportunity, the customer opportunity, um everything that's related to the growth, the topline growth of the business can then be integrated through with the operational work to understand where do we actually think margin's going to land.

What's the fan of outcomes on on this business? And so to to be integrating early, which is a unique benefit that we can bring, I think I think is a critical piece of the equation. Um and and that's where I see you know going back to our last the last question the utility of this market work or commercial piece really accelerating under the&m umbrella in ways that it it doesn't and can't elsewhere. >> So as you think about value creation in today's market that's very volatile for lack of a better term. >> Yes.

What are some things you would say uh make an asset look like a high quality asset? >> I mean it is it's a number of things. So first you have some of the things that you know we would have always looked at whether or not it is in a strong market that has you know strong tailwinds associated with it durable growth. we're not at, you know, not at certain penetration peaks and really understanding where we are in those peaks and valleys across penetration that so often are missed.

The quality of the asset in terms of the durability of those of the revenue streams and the repeat, you know, revenue that they have with their customer base, right? All of these things that our clients have always looked at which is like you know durable, non-cyclical, reoccurring, you know, revenue streams all continue to be important elements. But we also have the element of understanding what you know how certain factors will potentially disrupt to those streams going forward because we've experienced so many what we'll call black swan events in quick succession.

It's hard to almost call them black swan events because we've had these on the outskirts low probability events continue to happen that have disrupted. And so we believe it's very important to be understanding exactly what bet you're taking. And what that means is understanding the underlying drivers of a certain business and industry. This could be, for example, you might be looking at a um HVAC business that has regional concentration.

The bet you believe you might be making is around HVAC tailwinds and the growth of a rollup strategy and these synergies of that. But in reality with this regional concentration, you're actually making a bet on the discretionary income of those residents in that region that happen to be linked to ex manufacturing industry. You know, and this is just a hypothetical example, but getting back to that root cause, how much of a bet are you making on China resources and supply chain?

But this is what if we unpack an asset further further further enough we will be able to really get at what is the bet you're making and therefore when you have disruption that may hit the market how will it impact you these different flavors of it disruption because what what we'll ultimately do is and what we view our jobs as doing is helping our clients understand the bet they're making because the end of the day they are taking a bet they do need to probably take some of these bets.

They just want to be making sure that they're leaning into low probabilities. As a part of our buildout, we brought on a chief macroeconomist who's helping us to think through some of this peeling back the onion, think through some of the micro dynamics across the US. And we're incredibly excited about the work that she's doing because it's helping us unpack things like, you know, maybe we might rely on CPI for pricing and why that's flawed. maybe how we might have thought about cyclicality analysis in the past and and why that's flawed but instead it has to be viewed at a micro level.

So so much will go into it but it really is understanding kind of what you know what is the foundational element and then the second part is is how do you actually create value? So is this company set up to create value and e execute on the growth forecast which is a completely different question than whether or not it exists in a fundamentally good setting. >> So that's what that's what gave me pause about your your question.

I I kind of had to think for a second because it was like what what defines a high quality asset is is a little bit of a circular reference with what's the thesis? Um agree be because you you need to really understand what it is that you are underwriting. Is it you know is it is it customer durability and the fact that you you know you're going to keep net retention as high as possible? Is it um the acquisition target runway and the ability to roll those acquisition acquisitions in synergistically?

Is it um is it the ability to generate cash flow that grows with inflation but then make meaningful margin improvements because you're getting manufacturing and procurement savings? Like there there are a number of different ways to define a high quality asset. It just depends on what you're hunting for. And I think what what Jen and I are what we aspire to do here within the walls of&M is be able to narrow down in a very clear and synergistic way with our clients.

What is it that you're hunting for? Let us go and help you figure out if that thing is there or not. Um because I think there, you know, high high quality can can can mean a number of different things depending on on what the thesis is. >> Interesting. And I also Anthony if I can add too because Liz you're you're making me think. Right. [laughter] That's why the power of the back and forth because it's such a good question.

It's such a fun one, right? It's what we have to spend all of our time thinking about. But the the other aspect is you can't get away from valuation and price when you think about whether or not it's a high quality asset or not. So often we're looking at the core essence of it and if if it's a high quality asset, but there's there's a natural cyclicality that we see across private equity investing in, you know, around what's popular right now versus versus unpopular.

And you know, there's this just classic phenomena and we see it across the board. We're seeing it in consumer right now. We're seeing people run away from software right now. We're seeing people run towards bluecollar, you know, stuff that they infrastructure that they can touch and feel and and there's this effect. It's the classic irony where prices get inflated and they keep getting, you know, everybody's saying that's that's a sure bet.

That's a great place for money. Well, it it probably is at a certain price point and you know the thing that you just left because it got over inflated now is is you know price correcting and might actually now be the thing you want to look back at again. And so you see this cyclical nature. And I think that asking yourself, are we just chasing the the next theme that everyone else is chasing or are we taking a bit of a contrarian view and and acting on our own a bit?

And those that can do that and do that well, we see see oftentimes are the trendsetters are the ones that can hit it. And so it's more than just what makes high quality asset. It's also where do you sit in certain investment cycles and popularity? >> Interesting. So, so one of the things as as I hear you both answer that question, I'm thinking about interviewed a number of folks on on this podcast. One of which was a professor uh from University of Chicago who had done a lot of research and what makes a great CEO, >> a doer, a salesperson, something in between.

And then we've talked a lot over the last few minutes about value creation. value creation is contingent upon a management team executing it. So where you sit in your CDD offering, how much if at all do you touch upon or get a feel for management's capability to execute on that value creation plan knowing what you know or what you discover um about a company and where they fit in into that overall plan and the prospects for growth. >> It's a good question.

So, so we just by nature of our work, we are comparing a target company to its competitive set and comparing our target company to its analoges or any analoges that exist, you know, in in relevant industries and and so we're able to get a viewpoint um from from that sense in has this team kept up with the competition on the critical factors that differentiate them? Have they done what they say they're going to do? have they integrated these assets and actually um allowed them or enabled them to drive above market growth.

Um but but I do you know there's there's a there's a bit of an intangible factor. This is where I go back to AI is not going to completely disintermediate this, right? Because eventually we're we're humans helping humans invest other humans money in other humans. Um, and so I think the, you know, the one thing that actually, um, it's a bit of a commercial, but, but, but our&m now has a an in-house executive search firm that does management due diligence, which I think is an amazing unlock, um, to pair with CDD because it's not just understanding what this management team has achieved relative to the competition.

It's doing deep diligence on the individual executive team members as as seuite executives. What has their track record been? What do the people who work for them and with them say about them? How do we feel about their ability to achieve growth? And and if we don't feel good, what would we suggest about how to reshuffle the team? Um, I mean, I I think we are we are truly able to partner with our clients on all aspects of the deal, um, in ways that Jen and I haven't haven't really seen before.

And I think we'll we'll be able to touch on exactly that question, Anthony, with a with a different light um than we were able to at our prior firms. Yeah, Liz, I'm so glad you brought that up because what's interesting is um management assessments, at least in my experience, have traditionally been a little bit off limits within commercial due diligence. Um, beyond attending the management meeting, having management interviews and then relaying our our thoughts, you know, on how they how they acted and kind of reacted to questions and how we perceive them to be, which is like that's a very very small amount of interaction that we actually have had to them.

But we are able to kind of compare and contrast relative to the hundreds of management meetings we've been to. But other than that, it never went into any sort of formal document. It was always just side conversation and it really was not a part of the scope given this sensitivity attached to it. And yet, how often have we heard that private equity say that biggest mistake we made was not making management changes faster, right?

Because if you want anything really to have strong strong change, putting in putting in new management and letting them have 2 three years to actually have effect is critical. And in a 5-year hold, you got to do that really really fast if you need it. And so we will we would comment on well the growth plan is not what we saw you know the historical team do but you know but we wouldn't necessarily do a deep sense of exactly what's the pulse of the market.

What's the feedback on this on this specific management team? What was the backstory going into it? those uh those those elements should not be separate from the overall business due diligence. And I think I'm so glad to have that capability now and do it in a real way. >> Well, it's just like the the the financial due diligence shouldn't be separate, right? The operational diligence shouldn't be separate, the HR and benefits diligence shouldn't be separate, the IT diligence, the product diligence, the the cyber, the like all of these things, tax, everything um sort of belongs together.

And and and I think there's a as you lay out the the thesis, going back to, you know, we're trying to understand what the thesis is and whether those points hold true. As you lay out the thesis, each of those questions needs to be answered with a bunch of different inputs. It's not just market. And historically, we have said, okay, here's the thesis for the commercial work. Here's the thesis for the tax work. Here's the thesis for the ops work.

But by actually integrating all of those things together and teaming across the different service lines at&m and the different offerings that are really really good um we we can sort of bring a much more holistic picture to each of those those answers um and get a greater confidence level on on the fan of outcomes. Yeah, I as I as I listen to and as we talk about how CDD has evolved and if it really is a lever in the value creation plan, it almost has to include some viewpoint on management and all the other things you've listed.

And and I I would think anyone that asks for commercial diligence just to assess the size of the market is probably not doing themselves uh the right level of justice in order to really get the maximum benefit out of it. >> That's right. It's one of my favorite things when people assume commercial due diligence is just sizing the market. [laughter] >> All right. Well, that covers a lot of the the detailed areas. Now, I'm going to just uh fire away on a couple questions for each of you uh to to wrap it up here.

So, so one uh what's a word if you had off the top of your head to describe today's deal market? >> Oh, I like Jensen's. Go ahead. You've heard me say this before. I'm gonna say it again. Sorting is what I would say. >> Okay. Uh what's that? >> Do you know what I mean by that, Anthony? >> Yeah. Say say more. I like what you [laughter] describe there. So >> why don't you describe it? Go ahead. >> So it's it's there is there's a you see a lot of movement across whether or not you whether or not you see deal professionals rolling out of funds and creating their own own funds.

It's um the funds that are not having trouble fundraising, the ones that are having trouble are having trouble fundraising. We are see seeing a sorting between the funds that have really able to create value creation and above market returns and the ones that maybe benefited from a very frothy period of time where we had declining interest rates and a flood of capital into the market and so it's exciting and you know let the winners win. >> Okay. >> Yeah.

I I my word is similar to Jenza. I think um I think about it as evolving. I think we are at this stage and I reference the maturity of the industry. I I think we are starting to see um just a a different leg of um of a different imperative uh on how our clients and our own business, how we need to how we all need to operate in an environment that is now effectively a mature market. Um and the competition has changed. the way that we as service providers need to partner with our clients is changing.

AI has introduced this whole other layer of of change into the whole equation. And so I think there's really we are in a period of time where um and Jen and I are so thrilled to be doing doing this with&m in this moment because I think there's a massive evolution going on both in how our clients are having to participate in deals and also how professional services firms who support private equity and doing deals um have to engage. >> Okay.

A sector you're you're both watching closely today. So you can accuse me of being biased 100% because my background is in consumer products and retail but I am watching consumer closely. I think we've seen huge shakeups with some of many funds turning their backs on consumer and right when you see this many funds turning their backs on an asset is exactly when you start to see the price correction and opportunities emerge.

So I'm very much watching it and I I know it will be an asset class that will perform for funds again. I mean software [laughter] there there there has been um a a dramatic change obviously uh in in the last 24 months um but even just here in 2026 um and I think you know I'm eager to see how things play out because the buy side market for software I think has come to a screeching halt um But there are a lot of software companies sitting in portfolios that are going to have to get sold.

So what happens to those? What's the strategy? How do we think about operational improvements for those businesses? Um I think there's a lot, you know, a lot to do and a lot to think about. And I the the folks for folks who say sort of software PE investing is dead. I I really firmly believe that is far from the case. Um and I think there's a there's a lot to do and I'm curious to see how it plays out. one thing PE firms need more of today. >> Well, I think that and this actually plays off of software.

It's patience with the good assets. There's a lot of good assets in software out there that may not be [clears throat] the right time to exit on them. you know, patience with them, but probably even more importantly, discipline with the bad ones and and starting to, you know, create room in your portfolio for new assets, letting go of the ones that haven't performed or were overvalued because, you know, ultimately we, you know, we need to see see the movement and the return to LPS to keep these these funds afloat. >> Um, for me, it's day minus one value creation.

I think if you're entering a diligence process on an asset without having a clear view or thesis points to test on how you will make money with this business when you sell it, you're doing yourself a disservice. Um and and so starting from not just the check the box exercise on diligence. does this pass, you know, all of my hurdles. It's really how do I think about before I even start seriously looking at this business, what I will do to it, what unique value my fund can bring to making this business a better business and guaranteeing myself a successful exit.

Um I I think that's a that needs to be lens. >> Okay. one thing the market is getting wrong today. >> I referenced this in the beginning, but I think it's the narrative around AI. It um you know that it's going to impact this market in many many many ways, but it just being faster and cheaper is is oversimplifying the the magnitude of impact. >> Yeah. I I mean I don't want to be cheesy but the same answer. [laughter] >> We hear we hear some funds actually that the number of clients that Jen and I have spoken to recently who have told us you know when Claude came out we thought that it could replace all of our commercial due diligence and boy were we wrong.

Um I think I think the expectation on what AI can deliver in terms of diligencing an asset um has has been people are getting that wrong. Um and I think you still need the human judgment layer. You still need the super high quality face-to-face primary research. Um you still need that impression of the management team. You need to sit across the table humanto human and figure out like do I what do I really think of this this person?

Can I team with this person? is will this person execute for me? And and Claude can't answer those questions. Um and frankly Claude can't apply the judgment of a of a diligence team who's looked at, you know, looked in the space 100, 200, 300, 800 times. Um and so I think we we are hearing a lot of our clients who had been very bullish on the ability for AI to disintermediate the need for third party diligence really walk that back.

Um, which is obviously good for our business, but I think it's better better for the answer, too. >> Yeah. Okay, last question to you both. Best piece of career advice you've received to date. >> My gosh, I've had so many amazing mentors over the years and so many good pieces of career advice, but I also have three daughters. My oldest is now 12 and I think I've learned just as much from being a mom to them in many ways as I have from my mentors.

And when my oldest was probably about 3 years old, I was stressed in my, you know, coming up in my career, you know, going a million miles an hour. And I would say to her a lot of times, it it is what it is. It is what it is. Like, you know, I'm get get through the day. And she comes back to me at one point and says, "Mom, it is what it is until it isn't." And that's the way I feel about this moment in time. [laughter] It is it it is what it is.

You know, it is in the past and right now we're seeing a lot of change. And sometimes you have to embrace that change. >> Um the the one that I always come back to is you're going to suck at everything the first time you do it. And it's just like, look, everything's a learning curve. We're all in a learning process here. You're just just if you go in with the mentality that you're going to suck the first time you do it, you might surprise yourself.

And also, if you fail, like failure is such a learning opportunity. Um, and and I'm sure, you know, as Jen and I build this business, there will be things that we get wrong, but guess what? We'll fix it. there will be things, you know, that we need to to we get wrong with our clients, things we get wrong with our team, things we get I mean, we're not going to get everything right. Um, but but we will fix it and we will learn and we will continuously get better.

And I think entering, you know, starting something new with the mentality that it doesn't have to be perfect and it's it's better to try and take a risk. Um, I mean that's why both of us are sitting here with you, Anony's is because we we took that risk knowing that, hey, it might suck because we're doing it for the first time, but I don't think it's gonna [laughter] suck. We're going to be great. >> Those are those are those are very good pieces of advice on on both fronts.

So, Jen, Liz, thank you so much. It was great to talk to you. I'm excited about the the new offering and the ability and the opportunity to work with with both of you. So, thanks for joining today. [music] >> [music]