How Do You STOP Champion Hopping?! - Broken by Concept #275 transcript

Welcome BBC to episode number 275 of the Broken by Concept podcast. The number one legal legends solic educational and motivational podcast. Curtis Charlie Champion Mastery. What are we going to be exploring today, Curtis? >> Okay, so I can already feel through the camera that people are rolling their eyes. Here we go again. these jokers talking about champion mastery again, >> yapping about it for years. >> We've been talking about this for a long time, but I feel as though we I wanted to do an episode that really covered again a lot of uncomfortable questions and just kind of peel a few more layers and go a little bit deeper because I think this is a topic where you can really open the can of worms and go really deep on this topic.

So hopefully this is a video that a lot of you guys will be able to kind of share to your friends. Maybe the non-believers of champion mastery who who keep saying, "Oh, but but what about this person who only OTPs or what about this person who plays 10 different champs and is in this rank? What about there's always whatifs, right? And so hopefully there's going to be something in this episode for everyone." Okay, so what is champion mastery?

All right, I want to just pose that to you guys. I'm going to gank you, put you on the spot. How do you guys Don't make it fancy. Just off the top of your head. What is champion mastery? Quite a quick liner for me is winning the hard games. >> Well, that's not really defining champion master. That's the first thing that comes to my brain. >> All right, fair enough. That's an element of it. Charles >> Charles can answer and then I'll come up with my own.

But that's the first thing that is the thing that I'm obsessed with. Curt master, >> we will be talking about that today. >> Winning hard games because guess what people always do when they think about champions. They always think champions the problem. The draft like my champ felt unplayable in this game. So that's why I need to start off with a bang there. That's what champion mastery is to me. Winning the hard games that look impossible for your champion.

Um, all right. So, champion mastery is when you have internalized your champion's reference points to a level where you can play the champion intuitively. Um, champion mastery is a precursor to learning other things in the game. So, it's like a non-negotiable. You have to get good at your champion before you can learn things like role fundamentals, game fundamentals. So, it's like champ mastery is like the bedrock of the game also is a way we can define it.

Um yeah, just just if you've internalized the champ's reference points, you can execute on that champion at your level and perform consistently, then you can start working on other [ __ ] So that's how I would describe you. You need to get that out of the way first. It's like the first step. >> And when you say internally there, Charles, you're talking about like >> the reference points and you know, subconsciously like you can >> you can look at a situation in the game and intuitively know this is good or bad for my champion.

That's so important. You need to know what what things to say yes or no to. And I mean the way I think of it is like you are the champ. Like I don't think of when I make a decision as Kaiser like is this good for me? It's like no is this a thing that Kaisa wants to do as a champion. That's champ mastery. >> So I've got things here. These are skills that that signify degrees of champion mastery here. Right? Mental stack freedom, master memory, and habit creation.

Right? So when you're playing your best champions, you don't have to think right about, oh, do I how should I be using my abilities here? What does my champion want to do here? You already know, right? I know that I want to fight on this item. I know that I I play I want to be centered around my jungle here or play around dragons or whatever, right? >> I know how relatively like strong or weak I am in the relation to the game or the champions that I'm playing against.

And I think this is really important for what you said, Charlie, in the sense that you can't improve at the game >> until you actually have developed, you know, uh, champion mastery because you won't actually have the mental set capacity to allocate your energy to areas such as, hm, what is the win condition here? >> How do I actually consider my four other teammates and, you know, the other enemies to actually figure out, hm, how do I creatively figure out some sort of macro plan here to win this game, right?

But you can't even begin to fathom that, right? All right, if you're thinking about your champion, >> even even just like on that point, like ticking the boxes of like a Kaiser in this I'm going to use Kaiser a lot cuz she's like the champ I play the most at the moment. Um, and a lot of people play Kaiser. Like what does Kaiser good at and what does she do in the game? I I've got examples for you cuz I've seen you play major's bot into Kaiser and like clockwork, if Curtis is left alone versus the Kaiser, [laughter] >> but that Kaiser needs to have chat mastery to execute on that play and that's like a baseline.

If that Kaiser isn't trying to solo kill the mage when they're left alone, you're not playing Kaiser. >> It's a huge part of the champ identity. >> Exactly. Right. So, you have to tick boxes with champ identity, I think. >> Yep. >> And and actually before we even continue with these skills, something I actually was um noting for what champion mastery is, it's simply just a measure of how competent you are with a champion. >> Yep. >> Right.

When you boil it down, that's really what champion mastery is, right? So, for example, you don't Okay, so I think as well, you don't really have champion mastery. It's always on a sliding scale, >> right? So you can have high levels in champion mastery like you with your Rexai, you with your Kaisar, Fantasm with Axan, Natty Nat with Rengar, but you can have low levels of champion mastery where maybe you know uh it's a champion that you're less familiar with.

Like for example, you could play Draven Charles, but it's you don't have you can pilot the champion to a baseline level, but you don't have champion mastery, right? It's a low level of champion mastery. It would be like give it a rating, you know, five out of 10 or so five out of 100 or something like that, right? >> Five out of 100 more like it for sure. Yeah, let's go with that. So I think this is important for people.

You don't ever just get it. You don't It's not like this you capture. >> Okay. >> Yeah. Because everyone goes through cycles in their journey. Like a few years ago I would have had good champ master on someone like a VGO. It's gone down now. But back in the day fresh now it's gone down. You know Nathan on Udier probably gone down quite substantially since since back in the day. >> Yep. Exactly. Right. So back to the skills that signify degrees of champion mastery.

So you also have knows how to fight control your character and deal damage consist consistently. Really knowing your limits, >> right? That's the key, one of the major elements of >> Yeah, I think maximizing your damage with your just knowing how to output damage in scenarios in every sort of different scenarios is huge part cuz a lot of people think that um you know sometimes when you see a player with really good master or challenger player, they just look like they're doing more damage and they actually are doing it because they were missing all these little details of like um you know how you know damage output and just you know it's more than just combos.

It's not just like I go and practice tool and practice some combos. It's like, you know, the actual way fights play out. How do I maximize damage in this specific fight? >> It's also how to like walk the tight rope into particular champions. Like you see this with Zigs players. I've been playing Zigs recently for a Ziggs mid guide, right? And you look at really good Zigs players. They're weaving in those orders. They're getting in close quarter combat to get that passive auto off on people.

You know, they're hitting every every single one of their cues. They're they're putting the W in a particular location to get them closer and get more order. It's it's all the small little things that you don't see. I was going to mention with Natin like the empowerment on Rengar, like choosing which empower to use in each fight, baiting with that empowered W. Like he takes fights that look like slightly winnable to like just obliterates the fights purely through yeah ability usage. >> Um clarity over power spikes and troughs, which is kind of what we were mentioning.

Knows matchups to more than just a baseline level. Um you know what you're good into and bad into as well as with, right? You know what you're good with and what you're bad with. So this is again you can load into a draft and you can already kind of know on a scale how hard is this game going to be? Is it going to be really hard, really easy, whatever, whatever. >> I have a quick example about that. I recently played a game against a Ranada as Rexi and that's traditionally like a really annoying matchup for me because obviously you know Rexi most of the time is not that tanky especially in the early stages. you know, you go in, you do the one shot, the R, they don't actually die and then you die and then they get [snorts] the reset, right?

It's very, you know, you got to commit. And also, you know, the the pool thing and also the her entire kit is just like anti like anti-engage, right? >> Um, and I've known that for a long ass time, but I haven't played against a Ronaldo for, you know, a while. And I needed to be reminded that during the game, you know, and that's just again another example of like even though I have all those years of experience with Rex and I know that, I needed to be reminded about that in the game by just a couple of bad fights happening.

Um, so yeah, the the knowing what you're bad into is just really important. And and you know, it's not like saying that that's an unplayable matchup, whatever. I just need to just make sure that she's using her abilities or her R or whatever before I go in. >> Well, I think the key distinction here as well, there's a difference between knowing it on paper and like actually being able to execute upon that. This is where people get gas lit all the time.

They say, "Oh, but I know what Annie does. I know Annie has a stun, has a lot of bursts, but then I just walk up and die, right?" But it's like, "Okay, well then there's a lot going into that, right? You have to have the the mental stack to be able to think about Annie's range. You need to be able to, you know, actually consider those things in the grand scheme of what's going on at this in the heat of the moment. Still ward and lean.

Think about your resets. There's so much going on, but also understand, okay, what items does Annie have? Oh, she's hit six. Okay, she she took ignite, not TP. There's a lot of other variables at play that you know again tie more as well into the mental stat component as well. >> Yeah, it's always uncomfortable. I think you said earlier [clears throat] about uncomfortable questions when people say like I know how to play against that.

It's like >> blah blah bl you kind of don't like you might know what they do but do you know specifically what you should do with your character against it? Because like what you were saying with Rnado, it's like that's really high champ mastery. Like being able to first identify why my champs bad into them, but then knowing like maybe a little trick that you can apply to maybe like play against that champion. I think that's that's what people with really good champ do.

They know how to play with tough matchups like you were saying earlier. >> Definitely. Um can identify their role in a wide variety of compositions. Can win hard games without the champ with champion and can adapt builds runes if need be. Now Nathan, I know you're very passionate about winning hard games with your champion. So, do you maybe you want to elaborate that? What does that mean? What does winning hard games actually mean?

What does that entail? >> What does winning hard games mean? >> Um, winning hard games. Killing the nexus. Some hard games. Uh, I I don't know. What's the >> Well, what makes a hard game? So, what do you mean by a hard game? You mean unfavorable for >> Why is it important to be able to win hard games? I think the most important thing is to not have that default instinct that the champion is the problem because >> um >> that is the the go-to base instinct of every single League of League Legends player and I've even been victim to this you know it's it's and and I'm not saying it doesn't exist that is sometimes true and sometimes you are just handicapping yourself by locking in this champion or like literally um you know just wanting this champion but You need to understand that you have to learn how to uh win and play those hard games.

Um and knowing uh also why you just lose by the way. It's I actually I would even change that of like okay win hard games like like put up a fight in those hard games not like completely fall over and like and understand why you're losing because if you don't understand why you're losing that's when tilt and rage and all that sort of stuff comes into play. because I I I really want to I want to have a whole section about this because I think this is if anything again if anyone watching this can take one thing away from this video.

We've all been in [clears throat] that phase, that mindset of just instantaneously blaming your champion. >> If I was playing this other champion, this game would be so easy. I would never die to this. I would be able to win this fight. yada yada yada. And it's and it happens like clockwork. You can be an experienced veteran of the game, us for example, and it would still after many, many, many, many years, >> thought leaks in.

We're very good at dealing with that and then like breaking out, okay, that makes sense. Why? Duh. Um, like cuz we can even identify in the hard games like >> if you play perfectly, you could probably still easily win that game and but we have very high experience. But it's one of those things, right, where logic gets overridden because there can be this OTP of your of your champion who is that, you know, top 10 on the ladder and you're sitting there in low mass or diamond and would losing this game and losing your mind and blaming your champion.

So you can then after the game see and someone could tell you, look mate, there is someone who's top 10 who's OT being the champ blind picking it no matter what and winning all these games. There has to be a very big difference between what that person is doing and what you're doing. You can understand that logically, but it's still it still doesn't kind of permeate. It still doesn't change that that initial kind of system one response.

And recently, I've been doing this kind of Zigs mid thing, right? And you know, at the beginning of this journey, I was just thinking to myself, why am I playing this [ __ ] champion in mid? That's the first thing that would come to my mind. If I was playing Synra, Victor, if I was playing any other mage, I could just win these games, right? Why Why would anyone play Ziggs mid? That was like the first thing that would come to my mind.

And then as I started to I'm like, I'm going to commit to this. I got to figure this champion out. There has to be things that I'm doing wrong. And I started talking to some other people in the Midland Academy, some Zigs mains, doing some research, whatever. And even over the course of like I'm talking between five to 10 games alone, I was able to come up with massive differences of like ability usage, build paths, just my interpretation of the champ's identity, a whole wide range of things that I I'm like, "Oh, if I were to change these things, I could have actually won many of these skirmishes.

I could win many of these lanes. I could have more pressure. I could die less. I could be doing more having more impact. >> But again, I had to fight the like a battle internally with myself. One side of my brain was saying just stop. Stop just just just stop playing the champion. It's a waste of time. And then the other part of my brain be like, "Okay, well there's obviously people that are way better at this champion.

What are they actually doing? How can I have more impact in these games?" And that's the internal fight that all of us have. And you need to be in order to win that fight, you need to go through the battle once. You need to complete that battle once. You need to get to a point where you felt champion mastery once. >> What do you guys think about that? >> Um, >> how do you guys deal with that? >> I Okay, I think the way that I'll answer this question is I sort of want to go back to the definition of like, you know, I was thinking about it more as you were talking about what does it mean to win hard games?

What does it look like? So, a couple of things that I only have like three or four opportunities that it's going to appear this game that I'm going to have to capitalize on. So, like if I think about a whole game, maybe there's like, you know, 10, you know, 12 uh, you know, key moments. Um, only 30% of those will be fully in my control out of like the other 70%. This this is the way how my my brain works in those really hard games.

So, that's what it means. There's only a couple of opportunities that you need to be looking out for. You need to accept that there's only a couple of opportunities. Some games there's like a million opportunities you can make. you know those games where you can make so many mistakes and still win the game. These are not those games, right? And there's only three or four. And when you think of it that way, you you sort of your standards become ex, you know, raised way higher.

Uh what else does it mean? It means that I'm extremely aware of my strengths and I double down on my strengths and I'm extremely aware of my weaknesses in this game and I need to avoid those at all costs and understand what the enemy team's, you know, strengths are. Uh so that very clearly understanding strength and weaknesses. that sort of goes into champ mastery in general as well. Uh the other thing would be um yeah, every single moment of the game I know uh how to play the fights, but the fights will literally change from moment to moment uh like from fight to fight.

Some games the easy games for your champion might just be like, "Oh, I'm just marking this one person." Like for example, Rex, like I only just need to knock up, you know, hold my um knock up for a Yasaw or Y or Katarina or something going in. And it's very easy, Robert. In these hard games, I actually have a lot of different like it literally my fight, my job was to kill this person this fight. Now this person has their spike, so I need to start playing.

You know, it switches throughout the game. You know how hard that is? That's the level of champ mastery of like your champ uh your role in the game is changing from minute to minute. M >> that's what happens in those high >> because the sophistication of your winkcon assessment becomes >> yes >> way you have so much more options in your mind like again when you think about someone who's in let's say platinum they have a very very limited view of how to like win the game right they may have some very basic formulas like I strong here I got a wink on here okay do some basic front to backs here whatever it's like very rudimentary that's fine but as you climb the ranks and as you develop more champion mastery I imagine it as like the possibility abilities of how and the options you have get brought in.

You know what I mean? >> Yeah. There you unlock some more things. You unlock more possibilities because that will only get you that platinum example that really rigid thing. Yeah. That you can win those games or you'll win those easy games, not those hard those hard games you just straight up flat out. You don't have those skills. >> Example I played remember I played against you last week um and you playing Rexai and Nathan's assessment of the win condition was so crazy.

He started like split pushing with his Fiora or something to back door up base. It was the weirdest win contest in the whole world. Like no one would do this. Like we're just like playing his normal game of League, but Nathan thought the game he just read that the game was completely screwed unless he did this one thing. And he almost pulled it off. He's like flashing into our base or something at like minute 26. >> I wasn't flashing, but yeah, I was you flashed onto me.

I remember it was a crazy game. He lost the game, but he put up a fight. It was it was crazy. >> I was trying to kill you. Yeah, it >> was crazy to end the game. >> Um but yeah, another thing but maybe a bit tamer. Um, saying no I think is a very good expression of champ mastery. Knowing what your champs are bad at. >> Being comfortable scaling and being confident in your mid game. This is something that comes up so much in coaching in bot lane academy at the moment is like just not rushing.

You know, you don't have to take every trade. You don't have to like take every single opportunity in front of you. If you're just comfortable in your execution and your understanding of what to do in the mid game, which comes from champ mastery, then you can block out a lot of noise. You can say no to your teammates. You can not compensate as much. you can just be comfortable performing later on and that just keeps you out of trouble. >> It's almost as if as well you you have faith that future opportunities are going to present themselves and that if you're strong enough you're going to be able to capitalize on them.

But if you don't have champ mastery, you don't have confidence >> in your ability to capitalize on those opportunities. >> Yeah, I had a I had a live com I'm just going to relate back to the actual game a little bit here. So I had a live com last week again played a Jinx game, zero deaths. Um, and I had so many shitty bases. Like the timeline on Ascent was like nothing happening for like 17 minutes and then like three fights we just win the game over. >> Like perfect.

Basically a perfect Jinx game. But I was saying no so many times and taking like these really boring tempo resets for like the first 10 minutes of the game. basing on like 1,200 gold instead of greeding 100 gold for my BF and just buying some shitty components and then basing like when my team is in base even though I need a bit more money for yal and just taking the seemingly boring and asinine little things I'm doing in the game but that's what allows you to then kind of win later and just understanding that that that's been one of the biggest things that opened my eyes honestly just playing AD carry for the past year is like there there are so many opportunities in the game to win you don't have to attack all of them like there's very few games where it's like, oh, you've only got like two chances.

You know, most of the time you paid super hard. >> I was also going to say, talking about opportunities, people also have uh the opportunity to buy merch in our store. >> Yes, indeed. >> Right. So, if you want to check out our merch, uh there'll be hopefully a link, a pinned comment >> or we'll have a pinned comment. It'll be in the description. Also, uh merch.weetleague.com. >> wtl.l/merch. >> Yes, that will be the link there.

We've already had a bunch of our members in themies already buy them. Yeah, we'll flash up some photos. >> Yeah, we got some cool photos. >> We have to do that, Charles. >> Uh Charles will remind us for that. Um and yeah, so shipping time is I think a lot of people got them in a week if you're in US, maybe 10 days for other countries. And also, um yeah, talking a little bit about the actual design itself. So, we had some guy called Mario come up with this.

We have two versions. We have the illustration as we can see here and here, different colors. We got the little summoner's rift grass. Um, Javan spear, which we thought was very suitable. Maybe that was my influence a little bit for the Javin. And then people we always say it's like it's four blocks, right? >> It's it's floating. It's floating. It's a floating block. >> No, we thought it just looked better like than the the three blocks. >> How many blocks can you see? >> Exactly.

Right. How many blocks? Let's get serious, guys. You know, so we don't have to nitpick, you [laughter] know? Yes. In a in a physics sense, maybe it is four blocks, but that's three. And sometimes people do do four blocks, right, in their block, right? So that's our threeb block merchandise line. >> However you interpret it. >> Can't get the hat. The hat's coming soon. >> Yeah, the hats will get the hat now. Charles just gets the hat. >> Yeah. >> So Curtis, going back to your question cuz we didn't really answer the question, but how do you deal with that whole idea of like champ problem, champion? >> I like sort of why I wanted to list all those things because these are the things that I need to like suck it up and get into the details of. >> Yes. because I know for a fact that there is so many levels of championship because I felt it before.

Um I've gotten to challenger with champions that you know very it's very difficult to do like more team oriented champions solo carry champions like you know my Rexai Jar and Volibbear all that sort of stuff even when those champions were not strong at all. Um so yeah I the way that I deal with it is I suck it up and just realize that there's something I'm missing here. I need to push myself. And for people watching this who haven't experienced that before, >> you know, it's kind of one of those things, right, where >> it's like blindly trust, >> push through the pain barrier, push through the pain, >> go, you know, I I view it as a very binary choice.

It's like am I going to give up and [laughter] just try try again and coin flip it or and go back to honeymoon land with my champion or am I going to stick it out and then maybe hit J mastery you know >> because honeymoon land that you know if you keep building that habit of that mindset like champions problem champions switch then you never get to that that you know it's like the honeymoon phase >> you don't have to be an OTV let's get specific about this like at what point does that happen like an 80 carry I generally say around 80 games if you can stick with your champion for about 80 games you're going going to start developing some levels of champ mastery and then all the games after that you're going to feel very different in you play 60 to 80 usually depending on the complexity of the champion is that the same for depends on what your definition you said 80 games you can feel like full champ mastery >> yeah I think 80 games is like a good benchmark like I don't want people bailing out of their champion before 80 games unless they they're just like going through something stage 40 or different right but generally speaking 80 games is good >> 60 I'll say in the range of 60 to 100. >> Okay. >> Yeah, cuz that was actually going to be my next question because champion mastery is not defined by games played, right? >> Yeah. >> It just depends from PS to person to person, I think, as well. >> What rank you're in as well? >> What rank? >> Yeah, it's tough >> because champion mastery, [clears throat] you can play 100 games of a champion and you cannot get that far.

You can not get it. Yeah. >> Right. Some people just don't get it. Some people go backwards. They might tap out. They they they peaked at game 20 and then they just [ __ ] their next. The reason why that happens, you've talked about this on the podcast a while ago, like the the seven like the 80 to 100 or 70 100 uh mark. You're so aware of the champions weaknesses that you only focus on that and then every other champion is like fairyland and just amazing and your champions are this one that just has the weaknesses that are just so bad.

So that's why people just have this start building these narratives over the time. That's why a lot of the time, you know, people can relate to this in in the podcast. um the first 15 games of the champ, you know, the honeymoon phase, you don't actually know the weaknesses. >> You don't really know the weakness, but you know the strength strength >> because you've been beaten by the champion, >> right? So, you you overemphasize the strengths.

Yes. >> And you win like one or two games like, "Boy, this champ's so OP, you know, like how many times have we heard it in our academy saying, "Wo, I picked up this champion, you know, this champ's so good or whatever." And then you don't hear from them again like, you know, they're gone like 30 30 game mark and they're clear the weaknesses cuz you just need those. And also as well, those bad games are more forgivable in the early phases because you're so excited, you're blind, >> you can write them off.

I don't know >> what how to review your champion. So, you don't even know how to find out what really went on. >> But those those wins, they actually stick out to you way more of like you just going, you know, 10 and0 or whatever because you're just, you know, throwing off all the weakness, all those losses. >> Such a funny point, actually. Again, I love relating things back to our solo queue that we played together.

Um, a game I played against you, Curtis, where I played Corki and you played Morichiser. I think I went like 16 kills that game. I played [ __ ] awful. Like the whole game I played terribly, but I got this beautiful score line. Um, being able to make sense of those kind of games is a part of champion mastery, right? So easy to look at a score and take make assumptions, but yeah, just knowing what actually means a good game for a corky or bad game, you know. >> And just riffing on that actually, when you play a game, you know exactly how much impact a particular play contributed to the game. >> Yeah, that game was so easy for I had Nico like five man als constantly like >> you know like exactly right because when you're when you're newer >> you all you know is score line you know what I mean that's all you know but then you realize later on it's like I I went 5 and0 this game this was I did nothing I just kind of it was an easy game for my champion or another game you lost but you made the enemy sweat for LP and you're like I played out of my [ __ ] mind this game I really pushed my limits this game this was a hard game for my champion and that's that's actually where confidence gets built with champion mastery because you're not getting swayed by the wins and losses as because you really know what makes a good and bad game for your champion and how much work you put in. >> And again, to get to that point, you have to not champ. >> Yes, >> you can't.

If you champ, you'll never get to that point. >> You won't get to that point. So, back to the conversation about how many games you need to play to develop champion mastery. Again, I I think that's just a [ __ ] question. There is no there is no like number that you can assign that you've got champion mastery. We say like you've been saying 60 to 100, 80, what you said, Charles, that's a good baseline level. That's to start feeling like having a you know you have this >> muscle memory a little bit of like how to like do >> you do need some games obviously and I I think there is a lower >> there is a correlation yes >> but there's not like it's not directly correlated with games play it's there's definitely a correlation though so the reality is like okay you need to play games with intensity y okay you need to play with intention >> the more clarity you have over your reference points and and what maybe what you're trying to learn with a champion what specifically inside the kit you're trying to limit test or improve on >> um are you playing in blocks?

Are you actually intent are you actually playing that that champ um many games in a row or you only playing like one game of that champion and then like a bunch of other champions as well because it's you can't improve at multiple champs at the same time, can you? >> It's really hard. Yeah, you can you can easily get a [ __ ] ton of champ mastery points on the client over years and you've just peppered those champs here and there or normal games, whatever.

You know, >> you need to like lock in on learning the champion. Like, I'm going to sit down and figure it out. Like sort of what the ecore guy does, right? When he's doing his 10-hour thing, you know, he sits down and you need to sit down and figure it out. I I think another mistake that people do is they play the champion for like, you know, 15 20 games and they they will say, "Oh, does that count towards the 100 games?" I think that each time you start from like zero or you go back a lot a lot of the time, you know, like it's not so I play 20 games, okay, now I can go off for two months and I'll revisit the champion.

That's you're actually not building developing any sort of muscle memory. >> Or people say, "Oh, I used to play this champion 3 years ago and I'm repicking it back up." But that's gone. That's it. >> It's basically started from zero. >> Start from zero >> or maybe like 10 days. >> It'll help a little bit, but not not all. >> But you know, the the the beautiful thing about champion mastery is that it's not doesn't change rank to rank.

Like what you do to to learn a champion in platinum is going to be exactly what you do to learn a champion in master tier. You're going to play with, you know, play with intensity, do all those things, >> start off with the reference points, eventually learn when to break them, all that stuff. It's the same process, right? And and I think that that's the humbling thing about the the game in a way. You can be a a master tier player, but you've never played loot, like you're a master AD carry and you've never played Clistister before.

It doesn't matter. You're still at the bare bones understanding the game through that lens. >> That's another one that you just mentioned there, Charles, to add about what champ is is knowing when to break the rules of your champion. >> Yes, that's a huge huge part. >> So, actually, can you riff on that for a little bit for a while, Charles? the whole idea about like rules, breaking rules, and then creating rules. Can you maybe elaborate on that? >> So, I guess when I say rules, I mean the reference points of your champion.

Like when is it strong? When is it weak? What do you generally want to be doing in the game? Like do you want to be taking long trades? You want to be taking short trades? Do you want to be grouping at objectives? You want to be like there's champions generally have like a thing in the game that they like to cling towards. But the more champion mastery you develop, the more you can deviate from that when the rift deals you these complex puzzles that require complex solutions, right? like Nathan's split bush Rexi example or maybe there's a game where I'm playing Kaiser again I have to like focus really hard on ganking side or another role example maybe I'm playing a top laner and I'm I know my matchup so well that I can just play really aggressive first couple of levels even though I'm playing a scaling champ or something you know so yeah I guess yeah just when you can break the reference points on purpose given specific instances it's not random you're not just playing pure free flow it's very intentional >> well [clears throat] said love it so okay so we're going to get into some uncomfortable questions here in a moment.

So, champion mastery, >> is it influenced by or gated by game knowledge and rank? Is there only is there a certain kind of level that you can only get to with a champion with with like being a certain rank? So, for example, let's say let's compare two players. You have a masters here 300 LP Urgot top player and then you have a silver one Urgot OTP. Okay, they both got a lot of games of Urgot. They both OTB the champion in terms of like champion mastery in terms of what they can achieve.

Is there a cap based on like the the their game knowledge in the game? Like cuz this is the thing. People say, "Oh, I'm in, you know, I'm a you know, I'm in gold and I'm a cat OTP." Like they they kind of feel as though like in a way if you're not good at the game holistically, there's a limit, a ceiling to how good you can get with the champion. Do you see what I I mean, you just won't know stuff like threat assessments, what other champions do, how you win a game, like the tendencies of other players, be able to read things.

There's >> Yeah, there's so many things cuz using the Urgot example, you need to know how to play Midame as Ugot. You need to understand what every other top laner in the game does to understand your matchups to then play Urgot in response to those matchups. Also, just mechanics as well, being able to execute. if you were able to play Urgot um and even execute at a good level, you you would just be a higher rank anyway most of the time.

So that comes into play as well. So yeah, it's a messy question. There's no >> I think it's a bit of both because I would also as well if I was to look at that silver urgot players game, they would not be ticking any of the boxes for the reference points or very little. >> Yeah, the rank is the champ master as well. You would the proof would be in the pudding. If you saw that the Urgot player was playing a lot of Urgot in silver and they were hitting the reference points, >> it just wouldn't exist.

That doesn't exist. >> So, do they have champion mastery then? >> Uh, no. >> Cuz they can have like 300 games of Urgot. >> And you said they still don't have champion mastery yet. >> No, they might theoretically understand some Urgot things. They might know some niche little tricks. I know some of those players, they know some weird stuff about, but they're missing like 20%. Like they're fighting on the wrong time. is that isn't it as a D as like a phenomenon that you can play that many games of a champion they can know all the ins and outs of the kit they know all the combos they can know all the itemization >> yet they still don't win games >> yeah some of its intensity some of its execution I mean at that point that player needs coaching and they we need to identify what the hell's going on because there'll be something under the hood you know yeah >> so my point that I'm trying to the reason I bring that up is because I think a lot of people get really upset when they say that like they hear just because I I have I know a lot about the champion I've champ mastery.

I'm in, you know, I'm in gold and I've got X amount of games with this champion, X champion mastery points. But we go in and we say, "Well, you're actually really playing the champion wrong. Like, >> this is you're missing all these things." And that's a massive reality check for these people cuz like, how can someone else who's never played barely plays that champion come in and tell me all these things that I'm doing wrong, even though I've played like 500, 600, 700 games of the champion?

And that's the the thing. Games played isn't the whole story. It's only part of, >> you know, the process. And it's also as well knowledge versus execution as well. You know, they could, you know, they could know in general what you should be doing, but why am I not seeing it? >> I sometimes have players if I'm streaming in Discord who are like below gold. They'll tell me about some niche interaction that I don't know anything about.

Someone corrected me on something the other day. I can't remember the specifics. >> I I I was just saying, "Oh, this ability works this way in this interaction." I was just wrong, but like sometimes sometimes they will know weird things like that. Do you guys feel the same? I [laughter] was talking to this Ziggs diamond Zigs midplayer in the MLA and he was telling me all about like these builds and like oh my god I learned so much from him like even though he's a diamond it's like doesn't matter you can learn sometimes they know things it's like you just don't know cuz they put in the time to learn these weird niche [ __ ] >> I will also I I'm going to call out Alanor here >> she's like a world like she I think she gets world records on clears jungle clears and she's like really struggling in solo I think she's like you know she's went from master down to emerald stuff like that.

So like even like perfecting certain parts of the game, they're not, >> you know, the big 20enters again. Like you know, I've I've always traditionally had very slow clips. I've never mastered my clears ever. I'm like 5 10 seconds late to like my first like for everything. >> Yeah. When we made the original jungle, I had to do the clear for him. He couldn't do the clear. [laughter] >> I And that that that is really important in the top top level like you know the 1% and stuff like that.

But um >> but yeah, you know that's >> there other ways to compensate for particular stuff. I actually think that's a beautiful point though because it represents what a lot of people struggle with when it comes to champion mastery which is over complicating the 1enters and neglecting the 20enters. >> The things you don't do like that that is what reference points are to be really clear cuz I think reference points I think was it you that came up with the term reference points?

It's OP. Like literally like I would credit reference point adherence to one of if not the top thing that helps people climb in themies like because a lot of coaching learning objectives are around reference points and just getting people up to speed with them. The people that lurk in ouries and don't come to coaching but improve through guides it's all reference point stuff, right? And the reference points are really important because it lays out a set of things to do and then by definition everything else is something you don't do.

How crazy is that? So you have this list of little things. Okay, you do this, but now that automatically means you have to put everything else in the track. >> What's your favorite thing, Charles? It's improvement by subtraction. >> Yes, exactly. Right. Improvement by subtraction. And it's just so powerful. I can't I cannot stress enough. Reference points are so so so good. >> Yeah. >> Broken by concept. >> They are broken by concepts.

Crazy. >> So another uncomfortable thing. So recently, Owner at Worlds, if people have been following, uh first timed Mundo in I think it was like one of the most important games in the in the game. That's right. >> Yeah. Game five in the semi-finals. Right. And he won, right? He won with with Mundo. And there was all over, you know, Twitter and Reddit. People saying there was like a whole video hidden draft. The team was having to like convince him and teach him the kit.

Faker was like walking him through the kit and the coach say, "It's not that hard. Come on, you can play it." He hadn't [clears throat] and people Someone did research back. >> So, he didn't even play in scrims. >> No, he hadn't. The last time he played Mundo was like 3 years ago and he never played the champion basically. And Carrier I think was walking through the kit. Faker literally in during champ select was explaining how the kit works and yeah he played it and so >> people say well if this is possible owner's first time he a champion on the world stage game five and one >> how does that align isn't that a giant kind of >> well I got some points on this >> okay yeah I just wanted to bring this up how is that possible Charles walk us through here >> firstly he did not play well he got absolutely hard carried that game he played like [ __ ] I'm pretty sure he started the game like 02 or 03 not good it was also A very easy game for that champion.

There's a reason they picked Mundo in that game. It's because it countered the enemy SGE I want to say or Maai or it counted >> SC was it? >> Maybe. Yeah, it could be SC. It count as one of those tank engage jungles, right? It's very easy Mundo game. That's why he picked it cuz they thought their logic was like we'll pick Mundo. Even if you're like a three out of 10 Mundo, it'll still be better than playing like a Lee in or something in a bad game. >> Whether that's true or not, I'm not sure.

It's also in fearless draft. They have limited pool champions at that point in the game. >> Um and also Mundo like Mundo jungle. I don't know if you how much you know about Mundo jungle, Nathan. Probably a little bit more than me, but I actually first started a Mundo jungle game the other day just for like in a normal game or whatever. It's relatively simple. Like the clear I've never done the clear in my life. I think I did the clear in like 310 or something.

Like it's it's quite a simple champion. So I think it does kind of break the rules but in a way that proves there should be rules. You know, it's not like he first timed Niti. Yeah. But but then again, there is that story of Bangi doing the exact same thing with Niti and winning. So I don't know. Maybe SKT jungles are just built different. I don't know. Maybe that's the answer. >> So, so basically TLDDR there, it was a very, very easy game for the champion.

It was a simple champion within itself. >> Yes. >> Well, yes. [laughter] >> Um, so I mean that says it all right there, I guess. >> And I think the other the only other thing you didn't mention is that he's an incredibly >> Oh, he's like the best jungle in the world. Best jungle in the world. >> Yeah. It's like uh the you know the exception proves that was >> Exactly. Right. The exception proves the role. Correct. >> Right.

So I just think people were going to ask that. It's good to bring up. I think it was important to bring up. >> Yeah. Nice. >> So, he also he also didn't want to play it, by the way. Let's make that clear. He didn't want to play it. He got bullied into it. [laughter] >> So, if champion mastery is so important, why do we recommend champion pool cycling? Why wouldn't everyone just be an OTP? >> Because what we've observed over the years is that it's not um I think people just get bored. >> I think it gives you a warped view of the game.

It limits your learning, especially in the early stages. I think that >> temporary OTPing, which is a term that I like to use, is is awesome. Everyone should temporar play champs for an extended period of time. Really get into the details. The higher rank you are, the more champs you can play at a time, but like we recommend like, >> yeah, the lower rank you are, just play one champ at a time, play two champs at a time, build it up slowly.

Never really go more than three or four to develop that mastery. And that's just a more nuanced way of approaching OTP. And being a true OTP is just not for everyone. It's very rare that you get the kind of person that can commit to a champion for that amount of time. >> Yeah. I mean, it it expands your view of the game playing different champions. Um, it keeps things fresh, as Charles would say. And, you know, we're, you know, we're not robots like humans.

Like, we're not saying like, you know, people get bored. But it's like, yeah, we're not like, you know, the the whole weaknesses thing, like it's like, yes, that's true that you need to just play towards your strength, champion strengths, and good champies, understand your weaknesses, but also those weaknesses do beat you down sometimes. You just want to like, okay, I'm sick of playing scaling champion. Can I just like feel what it plays to like take control of the early game?

You just want to just do that for a little bit, you know? sometimes like you know playing the game sort of one way or having sort of been especially those champions with very rigid like you know like a smold or whatever you know like you're very limited in terms of what you can do in terms of the uh the >> I don't know Nathan my my smolder guide we run press the attack smolder we're winning we're winning we're taking short trades and it's not favorable for the enemy I'll tell you that maybe like >> no that's actually a good point though because champ mastery I mean not to pivot away from your point but >> champs aren't what they seem a lot of the time that's actually really cool to think about with champ mastery I mean, you know that with Rexi full glory on Rexi like >> Yeah.

Yeah. But I mean that's sort of the way jungle is. >> You were doing that before before it was cool. Was cool. That's right. [laughter] >> Um Yeah. >> OTP OTP. >> It's a refreshing perspective. I think is a big one, right? I think we've all with a champion like, "Oh my god, if I lock in that champ one more time, I'm going to blow my brains out." You know, >> refreshing it actually allows you to come back to the champion and actually um it's like taking a break type thing. you know, you actually get a, you know, a new lens, a new, you know, you're freshperspective.

Fresh perspective. Yeah. >> Yeah. Also, I think it's just mandatory to learn the game, to play multiple champs. Like, you can't start the game and just only play one thing. >> You can also be better at your champion as well by learning how the champions work as well. >> It's also like short-term as long term. Like, I know we did Lwig on the case study like he played two champions and had success of a start. That wouldn't last forever.

You're going to cap out eventually and he kind of was was going to do that, you know. So, you know, does the champion you choose to presume matter? Should should people actually care about what champions they develop champion mastery with? Right? So, for example, you have, you know, Natty Nat, Rengar versus Fantasm, Arshan versus A King, Aurelia, or just the average person, you know, should they should should this even be a question that people even entertain? >> I think people should stick away from specific champions at certain stages of their journey.

I think some champs are too complex for lower low rank players to play. just to say it. I It's uncomfortable, but it's true. Like, if someone in like bronze asked me to if they're going to play Kalista, just tell them no. Like, yes, if you really love Kalista and you're happy slowing down your journey by literally years, then yeah, go for it. But I wouldn't recommend it. You know, I think that there are certain champions that fit specific parts of the journey better than others.

Some like there are certain champions as well that can be more archetypable to that role. Like playing a hyper carry is generally good to learn bot lane through because it's more transferable skills, teaches you about the role, >> you know. >> So does the champion you choose to pursue matter? >> You know, us as league players and the league player, your journey, most people are playing the game for years, you know, so pissing away a couple of months on the wrong champion. like people stress about about this.

Like I think there's a huge like I want to like play League and I want the perfect, you know, right? Like learning actually what you don't like is really important. Like so I would say that in the answer like even if you know I think it's important to know for some players go play the Niian bronze and just see how hard it is to win games. You actually have to expl let's see what it's like because then you actually give more respect for the game and sort of understand you know what um yeah what you're not missing out on I guess. >> You know what's funny about that is um I get a lot of ex jungle academy kindred players join bot lane academy because they realize I just like ad carrying up these kindred players like so hard to play kindred in in lower ranks.

I just see it, you know. Yeah, >> people play hundreds of games of champs like Kindred and just get Yeah. struggle to get results. >> Um, >> so the answer to that question is I >> So it does so >> it does in the long run but not in the short term. >> Yeah. Like if you spend like years like you know and in bronze like you have to know when to give up on a champion. There is that as well, right? >> What you enjoy as well, right?

I think >> that's the key. >> It's really Yeah. >> So So okay, so you know this is a question. So, what prevents people from understanding or respecting champion mastery in the first place? Like, why why do we even have to do this episode? It's it's crazy to me sometimes that we we talk so much about champion mastery as if it's like this >> like super niche, you know, underground concept that like we have to champion for for no, you know, for for something that we think is so natural to the game.

So, like is it that people get short-term success without it? Is it because they have that random popoff game or a game five? Is it because they heard a t saw a tier list somewhere or whatever or is it just because they're lazy or is it multiaceted? I want to kind of >> couple of things. Yes, tier lists. So, meta, you know, the champions change and yes, it is a fact that playing champions that are better in the meta or currently stronger items or certain thing you are going to have the result.

So, it's about the LP, right? The results. Number two is League is a five versus five game and it's very easy to uh shift blame to your teammates. So, um, you know, it's, um, you know, it's just my teammates's, you know, problem here or whatever. And, um, if I just played like a better champion, you know, um, maybe I could carry them or whatever. Okay. It's not that. It's more just like the the focus is not on the champion.

It's like, I lost this game because of um, >> you're saying no one's actually reflecting on what occurred in the game properly. Yeah. >> They're just blaming externals, which stops them from then developing champ mastery because you're not asking tough like good questions. >> Yeah. like how could I actually win this game or or take my CH master to the next level so it's like it's not my teammates for taking more accountability >> you know cuz if you think about like you know other games the 1 v one games you know champ master let's say think about like melee or something like that it's very obvious that you can see that you need you know cuz you're only by yourself you know you don't have those other four people >> that's just the culture in fighting games as well like people just are >> they play one or two chance and that's it >> in fighting games that's just what they do >> that's what you have to do [snorts] >> uh another reason is it's like the Delirious case study.

He's I think he literally quote said every has four abilities, right? Like in the game >> disrespect for the difficulty. That's that's a big one, isn't it? For sure. Like just people don't think that champs are hard. >> Yeah. It's like so I think it ties back there abilities. >> No, I think what it as well people get gas by the easy games so they win that game. Remember he played remember Delirious he was playing Vain Top.

He probably played some game like Vain Top into like a scion or something and like had one good game, right? and then like then played it again, lost, and then blamed it on the jungler or blamed it on some other variable. Right. So again, you're right. It's it's it's because the most convenient answer is to blame the champion instead of actually looking within and being like, you know what, I actually probably could have minmaxed this.

I probably could have played this lane differently. I could It's It's harder to ask that pose that question, isn't it? It's It's way harder. >> Yeah. Blame the champion or your teammates. >> Yeah, exactly. Right. >> So, there's a lot of things that distract you and pull you away. That's really what it is. a lot of distraction meta teammates, you know, it's just >> and people and and just in chat people just, you know, yell at you, right?

And a defense mechanism is like, "Oh, yeah, screw it. I'm not going to play this champion anymore. I'll just play a different champion." >> Yeah. Beats you down. Like getting through that phase of learning the champion is also tricky, you know? It's easier to just kind of hop around, pick what's good in draft. It's kind of sexy. I think also like focus on like I guess fundamentals or macro or strategy or decision- making or theorist thinking like all that side of the game.

People really overemphasize that. >> It's going to our philosophy. One of our key messages on the broken my concept podcast is League is a fighting game first and foremost but people like to think it's a strategy game. >> It's hard to improve at the fight. You know why I think that is it's hard to improve at the fighting aspect. It's not as clear. It >> is. People don't think it's possible. >> Or people don't think it's possible. >> Yeah.

They just naturally Oh, sorry. They're just untalented >> because it just takes so long. >> Yeah. I see a lot of people in coaching sessions where I I watch them play and that I can just tell by watching them and how they ping and how they move around the map that all of their focus and energy is on how do I coordinate my teammates to do this >> instead of just how do I play my goddamn champion better? And I sometimes have to yell at them like slap them in the face like look mate if you just play your 10% better in the fights you win this game.

But you're literally trying to coordinate everyone like we're just like in the military like >> one of those one of those games like Age of Empires. >> Yeah, like a top down civilization. >> You see those people as well that like they [laughter] they're not flaming but you can tell they they're looking at all these mistakes and like >> they're in judgment mode. They're like, "Oh, this person did this, that person did that." And then I'm like, "Mate, if you were not focused on that, you could have done this, done that.

There's so many things." >> You can tell with the camera panning. They put their cameras and they ping this. They're just looking around like they're just angry. Why do we get to this dragon? >> So angry and that takes away from you're like you know think about it. You just miss one reset one tempo deployment that can change the entire game. You get back shove a side went boom make a play that's it. But again you can't y again it all starts with looking within instead of blaming externals. >> Yeah 100%.

So that that's why champion mastery is not valued is because there's just a distinct lack of um introspection >> with how you contribute to the outcome of a game. >> So this is one little interesting observation I wanted to kind of get your take on. So like we have mentioned this before where the average player the general player base has improved right we've we've said you know how um how easy it was to climb in say season 3 comparatively nowadays it's night and day people come back to the game >> improved drastically >> improved drastically right and there's a lot of factors that play into that right obviously there's a lot more educational content nowadays the game has stabilized in a way where you know people kind of know and agree upon how to play the game for the most part and you know the player base has aged Right?

The average player has played the game for quite a long time. So in a weird way, in a roundabout way, there's a lot more people with champion mastery, isn't there? Right? Because people just by >> by happen stance because they've played the game for so long have a lot more understanding of their champions do know a little bit more about when they're strong and weak, probably know a little bit more about other champions.

So in a weird way, I was actually thinking it's, you know, we've said, what are the core reasons why the game the player base has gotten way more, you know, sophisticated? I think a big part of it is actually champion mastery. >> Way more people now are better at their champions than they used to be and like as a percentage, you know what I mean? Rather than yes, there are educational videos and people are getting coaching more and all that.

That is a that is a factor, but I think fundamentally champion mastery and the amount of champion mastery, amount of people with champion mastery is at an all-time high. What do you guys think about that? >> Yeah. No one probably >> but not intentionally. >> Yeah, not intentionally. Yeah. It's not like a Like you know when we you know when we started coaching um you know we looking at like silver or like even bronze games like wow these players aren't as bad as what I thought a bronze player was like fighting wise in sham mastery yes everyone is massively leveled up but yeah not intentionally like not everyone will think that like their game knowledge got better or like they understand how to build their champion fighting better what it is I can see this like like watching other people play the game it's like >> people on a whole are much better at just playing their champion like it's hard to even guess sometimes like they I see like Yasawos in like still doing cool stuff, you know, like EQ flashing, whatever, playing fights pretty well, >> but they they still can't kill the Nexus.

I will say that, but I don't think that the average player's ability to kill the Nexus has increased nearly as much as their champion mastery. So, I think I people's just average fighting ability is so much better again as a as a result of more again broader understanding of champions and championship. I think also just being exposed to high level players like just streamers with their perspective of the game. People kind of generally just know what what what's capable of their champion a bit more.

I think >> so that was basically all the major things that I wanted to talk about today. Did you have any other things you'd like to discuss in reference to champion mastery guys? >> No, I'm trying to think of any other uncomfortable or tough questions people about champ mastery. >> One of your favorites, Nathan. It's not on the client. We have to put that in this episode. The champion mastery on the client is champ master the M classic >> the the number I love it how mastery points I love it mastery points I love it how when we review some do you guys see people they click in on everyone and they like looking and then they'll say like oh this guy's like >> or they say you you say you ask questions about them they say oh I've got the x amount of mastery points on my champion >> and as a coach you know I we appreciate the enthusiasm but [laughter] it means it means [ __ ] nothing you know what I mean like three trillion points it doesn't mean anything to That doesn't change the way I review this for you. >> I don't even know what it means.

You don't even know what it means. 5 billion mastery points. But like the other I don't even know the quantified. >> I don't even know if 100,000 is good, a million's good. I don't even know what it is. >> So the other thing as well is like if if you have like, you know, you know, three trillion mastery points and you're in gold, that's a negative. That's not a positive. >> It means that you have probably distorted view of the champion. >> Yeah.

You know what I mean? You >> have respect the champ mastery enough. >> Exactly. Right. You just played mindlessly. >> It's not hard to get a mastery point, right? Just lock in the champ. [laughter] I I could do it. I could play a champ while drunk. Just my drunk jam. Just play it every game. >> Well, people will say like the S+ thing and the S and stuff. Is that the same thing? Is that different? >> I have no clue, dude. >> I think to get an S+, you have to play pretty well. >> Oh, so that is the mastery points tied together. >> I have no idea.

I'm pretty sure you do get a baseline level. >> I don't know. I couldn't tell you. I see people in Discord talking about it. I I don't know. >> So, school. >> All right. School post of the week here comes from Charles. a different Charles. >> The title of this one is the five >> Smurf Smurf [laughter] Charles Smurf again school. >> I've been found out. Nathan's taken over the school post, but like Curtis always does this.

You just >> Yeah. Well, Curtis is currently >> I'm handboring it over, >> you know, not feeling I guess. So, his voice people might have noticed cuz his voice is not being the best. >> I had to say it before the comments did. You know, the comments would say, >> "Why is Nathan reading the school post >> mailbags thing?" Yeah. [laughter] >> All right. So, school post of the week here comes from Charles The five master players with comms versus five challenger players without scenario in Olympic basketball.

One of the big scenarios that we hear on the BBC is that five master players that practice together and train together with high chemistry would still lose to five challenger players without comms or chemistry. Many that are into clash and competitive don't think this is the case. Talking to my mates thinking that comms is a cornerstone skill that can elevate a team. But if we look at basketball, which as a person who plays a lot of league and basketball is probably the most similar to league in both skill and teamwork, both a 5v5, five higher skilled players from team USA who barely practice together wins Olympic gold medals almost every time.

Teamwork is almost even more important in basketball since there is only one ball. Every single person has to be involved in a play to be effective. But at the end of the day, offense and defense starts with the 1v one fundamentals. If each member of your team is able to consistently beat/defend your opponent in isolation, chemistry isn't as important. And at the highest level, the players don't necessarily need chemistry to recognize the right decisions in the heat of the moment.

The comparison here isn't even five master players as at least five of the French team are in the NBA, which I believe would here would be the equivalent to challenger top 300. It's just that Team USA was basically 15 of the top 25 players in the league. What do y'all think? Team USA had a few close calls during their Olympic run, but at the end of the day, they could trust their members, i.e. Steph Curry, to take over the game single-handedly.

There is a clip here. Cue the clip, Charles. >> We definitely have a an advantage. We know each other. We we've played together for 10 plus years. We we [music] we have training camps every summer. These guys don't. These guys just show up for 3 weeks and just go play, right? It's extremely hard to create a team and create chemistry [music] like that and I think that's that's that's their biggest disadvantage and uh that's always a challenge for them.

I can play together every day for the last 5 years that ain't going to help you. That chemistry going to help you when you got to guard Steph. [laughter] So whoever talking man especially fresh man like just play the games man. We ain't talking about y'all. [music] We we respecting what y'all doing over there, bro. Play the games, bro. >> So, this I like this is the you know, we said it in the comments here, Curtis, in the school.

I think uh you said here, "This might be the most perfect video/post I've seen on this topic. It's so good, in fact, that I'm going to steal it from you when I use it when anyone asks this absolutely perfect comparison. You're spot on with your analysis because league, like basketball, ultimately comes down to a series of 1v ones and individual skill checks. And if you can't pass those skill checks, you can never really win.

Love this. And yeah, I agree. Uh, you know, fact, you know, lane phase, you know, I like that the idea of like, you know, this is even more of an extreme example because of one ball. Like you literally only one person like obviously, you know, defend, you know, I'm not saying that everyone just walks around and stares around and, you know, mov Yeah, the ball moves fast, right? Um but yeah, this is even more extreme example in League and I love this example here talking about even more extreme that um that even maybe I would maybe even you know see with League might be a little bit different where you know challenger a chemistry challenger team against >> the top high challenger like top 10 like maybe that could be a little bit closer but this is like you know team USA is even beating like challenger players who don't even play together.

Yeah, if you if you put it that way, right? So, let's let's let's let's give them the benefit of the doubt. Let's have five low challenger players that have they're in a team >> versus f like let's say the the best in their role >> solo. >> I would say that's hard. I mean, I would say that's where team play really probably does matter. >> But I still think >> I've got I've got some anecdotal evidence on this. Like when we used to scrim for playoffs in O there would be some like uh random players come together to make teams to play against when there's the playoffs get super deep and you don't have people to to verse or whatever and like they would take games you know these the random five challenger players against my professional team who' been practicing all year they would win sometimes and they would take some games and make it difficult so >> it like again the game is the one v one game to a certain level even in the esports context I so I think again my my experience would prove that this this still is true even in that in that that context.

Yeah, I would say that I wouldn't say it would just be like when when we see five master players with coms versus five challenger players without coms and teamwork and no practice. That would just be a wipe the floor. Wouldn't even be close. But I think it would be um maybe a little bit more if I would still I would still weigh like maybe 6040. Like I would think that the the the top >> um top players like the top 20 challenger players versus low challenger the top 20 would al would actually still come out ahead even with no practice, no coms or anything like that.

I still think that's the case, but they would just be Yeah, it's about 40% of the time the other team could probably win. >> This is a salt. This is a post that can piss people off honestly. >> Yes, >> it'll piss off the A- Ramatures who were mentioned in our previous episode on on team play. I I love actually the the viewpoint of viewing the game as a series of like 1v on's marking your opponent and skill checks. I love that.

But in League of Legends, it's actually much more subtle than in basketball. Cuz in basketball, it's like defense or offense. I'm either trying to get past you or you're trying to get past me. Who's going to win? You know, but in League of Legends, it might be like, "Oh, I got to my camps a bit faster." Or, "Oh, I reset a bit a bit better than you." Or, "I use fog of war a little bit better than my lane opponent." And it's it's actually adds up over time incrementally cuz like even with your example of like a high challenger player versus like a low challenger player, it's going to be like very incremental.

You know, it's not like I'm going to be solo queuing solo killing you every few seconds cuz Yeah, exactly what I mean. So I think yeah, that's what it would look like. It wouldn't look necessarily like a stomp, but you could kind of feel the game getting away from you over time. I think that's actually why the master players with the coms can delude themselves into thinking that they can beat higher ranked players because the game isn't like I'm getting solo boloed every 2 minutes, you know, cuz you if you are good at your champion and you're like in like GM or something like that.

Yeah, exactly. >> In terms of killing the nexus, you're not going to >> But it's all under the hood. That's the problem. >> But that's even the case in solo Q when you're when you're just getting outclassed in solo, right? Let's just say competitive aside, >> that's you're not getting like solo killed, right? >> And I spoke about this a few weeks ago with me versus Praith, right? The same thing comes up, right? It's it's just very incremental. >> It's incremental and then and then it almost feels like they're just doing everything faster, right?

More efficient, they're faster, they're at the play earlier, you know, they're dealing more damage in the fight and and you kind of feel like, oh, if I was there a little bit closer, [laughter] like to get there sooner, that you would have to completely change everything in the lane. So, yeah, >> you also will get solo killed. >> Yeah. And if that [clears throat] happens, you're done. The game will end up very fast. >> All right, mailbag time.

Away we go. [music] >> Nathan's mailbag. Jingle jingle jingle song. >> Allighty then. Our first question here comes from Tom. The title of this email is Nathan's mailback. Very creative, Tom. >> And this is good for, you know, following on for our chant mastery. Uh, you know, major topic for today. Very short. Hi, Nathan and Curtis. I'm Tom, a gold top laner. >> Got punished for that. >> What? >> He heard you. >> I'm a gold top laner.

I love playing Jace, but I'm afraid it's mechanical mechanically complex or sorry, it's mechanical complexity could hold back my growth as a player. Should I keep playing him or should I drop it for an easier champion that could help me grow more as a player? Love and cheers. >> Did you talk about Jace with Chippies on the Chippies episode? Did Jace come up? >> I don't think it did. >> Yeah, it didn't. Um, Jace, >> what rank is this guy? >> Gold. >> Yeah. >> And he's a top laner or a mid >> top laner. >> Jace is such a controversial champion.

It's like the quintessential like you must be good to pick Jace. I feel like that's just what everyone thinks. Like it's just like if I pick Jace and I'm even like kind of played a lot of it and then the enemy just picks like a malight, you've just lost. Like that's the general public's like consensus on >> I think that's that's just the reality. >> It is. It's true. [laughter] It's actually hard to win on J. >> Think about Jay's kit, right?

You have no utility, right? So, you got basically get behind. You're the worst champ in the game. >> You're the easiest champ to gank in the game in a long lane. You have to harass your opponent. >> So, no mobility, no utility, >> and you're not squishy. Yeah. You build basically full damage for the most part. >> And um you have skill shots and you got a space and tether really really well. >> Right. So, and and the other thing with Jace, what people find the hardest is that his reference points are really like iffy.

You're just a skirmisher. That's what Jayce is. You're a skirmisher and you need to really understand your limits to be able to kind of pump out a lot of damage >> and that's it. So, if you know how to fight really, really well, you can make Jace work. If you don't know how to fight really well, you're not going to make it work. >> I think from a top lane context as well, cuz I guess Jace mid would be a lot more of a skirmisher.

Top lane Jay is also just a lane, obviously. Like, you have to generate a lead in the laning phase. If you go even as Jace into the average bruiser or tank, you're just going to be less useful even if your skirmish is incredible. >> But that's the thing with Jace. Like I feel as though he's as an identity, he's moved further and further away from a lane bully >> to more of like a scaling >> really well. That's the way I have to be like on the curve or ahead of it slightly. >> If you're Yeah, you need to get those three items before everyone else.

Like I view Jace in a weird way >> kind of like like there's a there's a bunch of champions in the game that are really misinterpreted. Like I think Pantheon's kind of the same. Pantheon can do deal really good damage in the early lane, >> but fundamentally you scale incredibly well on Pantheon. So you don't need to feel rushed to get [ __ ] done. And most people when they play champs like Jace or Pantheon, even like there's some other off the top man I can't remember, but like they they have a range advantage.

They feel as though or they feel like they can win trades, but then they over >> That's right. they overdo it and then they die and then they're [ __ ] useless. But in reality, you need to be slightly on curve, slightly ahead of the curve maybe, and then take good trades, pryo, play slow, small wins, and then get to your key spikes and then pop off. That's how you win games. >> You're like Lucy and AD carry. It's like you don't have to dominate your You just have to win some short trades every so often.

Just make sure you get every single creep because you're a goddamn range champ. You should be getting every single creep and then you're going to be just fine. >> Yep. >> Exactly. Right. >> And that's easier said than done. That is so hard to do when there's junglers in the game. They're pushing the enemy top laners try to kill you >> and you feel kind of pressured to go >> has that narrative that I need to dominate my opponent and kill them, you know. >> Exactly.

Right. So, I think TLDR, no, I would not play Jason Gold as a top laner. I don't think it's a wise time investment. I think you're better off >> waiting a little bit, come back back later on. Um, probably wait till high plat. >> It'll confuse your journey. >> I am going to go back to what I said in this episode. I don't know how many games is already played Tom or played with Jace. Like this might be like how about you just go at it for a couple of weeks.

Get it out of your system >> and then you know you can >> you're not it's not like you're not going to learn anything. >> Yeah, that's right. >> You know people have this fear that's like if I put 80 games in this champion and I drop it, it was a waste of time. There is no such thing as wasting time, >> right? You can sink 80 games in and you can walk away knowing like I know a little bit more about Jace. Cool. I know why he's hard.

I've learned a bit more about spacing, fighting, power spike, whatever. Boom. Move on. You still learned things. >> But you just obviously Yeah, you it don't view it as waste of time. That's the big thing. [snorts] >> All right. Next question here comes from John. The title of this email is also Nathan's mailbag. >> Killing it, guys. Absolutely crushing it. >> What's up, BBC? I've been listening to your podcast for over a year now.

As I've just hit a milestone in my journey, I decided I wanted to take the time to express my gratitude and share my story. I've been playing League on and off uh for north of 10 years, oscillating between playing casually with my friends and grinding ranked. Without going too uh into too much detail, the last 5 years of my life have been rough as I've been dealing with uh a crippling mental illness that has forced me to spend a great deal of time indoors.

What I was beginning to realize was that at the core of my mental issues was that I believed to be a severe lack of self-esteem. After listening to a few episodes of your podcast, I heard your message about using League as a tool for selfdevelopment, and I decided that I wanted to try really committing myself to something for once in my life. Prior to this, I was pretty much a hard stuck gold/s player with a host of stage three and four issues.

I was unbelievably quick to tilt in my games and I was absolutely convinced in caps that my teammates were holding me back. I remember going on a loss streak so bad that I used chat GBT to calculate the odds of that happening due to chance alone as a way to convince myself that I was just super unlucky. >> During these streaks, I would spam games at 3 to 4:00 a.m. in the morning, one after the other, using each game as a distraction to cope with the pain of the previous loss.

As you can imagine, this was an awful experience, and I knew something needed to change. I even used to lament over my league troubles with my best friend, to have finally gave me a sobering wakeup call by basically saying that I'm not special and I can't complain about not climbing the ladder if I have zero process and I often rage and underperforming games I could have won. At that point, I really began to implement the things that you stress on this podcast.

I spammed only Jinx to maximize my champ mastery. >> It's a good one. >> I played in blocks of two to three games. Shout out threeb block merchandise wtl.l/merch. Uh, I turned off chat and utilized only pings for communication. However, by far the most impactful change I made, which Nathan loves to stress for good reason, is play with [ __ ] intensity. >> Let's go. Sit up in the chair. >> Good posture. Come on, guys.

Grip the mouse. Grip the mouse. >> Grip the mouse. And also tilt the keyboard, you know, and just [laughter] just and get immersed in the screen. Like that's intensity, dude. I'm just clicking around fing, you know, just Oh, I just want to get on the riff right now, dude. >> Oh my god. >> I love people playing with intensity. And that's I swear that's the biggest problem of emerald players. I've been yelling about emerald players. >> Emerald players getting sniped.

They're getting >> low intensity gameplay. >> Catching strays. Emerald players. >> Uh he literally says after this, favor intensity. F and intensity. Lean forward fast precise clicks. Thinking about matchups, assessing threats, utilizing lull states. >> Oh my god. >> Prepping for neutrals. These things alone can earn you 500 LP without learning a single thing about the game. >> Cool. >> I would say that is learning the game, but >> love [laughter] lot the enthusiasm.

Let's keep going. >> Yeah, that's again thinking that is like super, you know, crazy strategy. Like that is the game. >> That is the game. Yeah. >> Fast forward to now, 288 games later, I just hit Emerald. Even though my initial goal was only to reach platinum since I never believed I could get better than that. Of course, hitting my rank goal felt good. However, honestly, the greatest gift you guys gave me was the ability to play a game that I love without it causing me so much anguish.

And I really don't know if I ever would have gotten to that point without your podcast. So, thank you for the fellow hard stuckers, no hard stuckies in lower IO. I just want to say that I understand the sinister temptation to blame external factors like teammates and game balance, but let me just tell you that the game becomes so much more fun when you decide to really focus on sharpening your own performance and carving yourself into a force to be reckoned with on the rift.

Hope this was useful or interesting in some ways. Cheers, John. >> Wow. >> Wow. What a great email. Shout out to Johnny. >> Absolutely incredible. >> That's [clears throat] what this podcast is all about. That that email right there again, he's he's he was in a in a hole. >> He needed some guidance. He didn't think about it. He did it. He acted rock. >> He hit rock bottom bikini bottom. >> Nathan rock bottom. >> Yeah.

And actually, you know, just just did it. He actually executed. And that's what, >> you know, we love hearing these stories. You know, let us know, guys. Like these success stories are so important because there are people who listen to this podcast and think we're just yapping here about [ __ ] every week. But this is why we do the podcast. So, thanks Johnny for sharing that. And that's you, like you said, Nathan, makes me want to queue up and play some League right now.

Unfortunately, I don't have a a slanted keyboard at my uh disposal right now, but I have to get home and play some later. >> I will say at the beginning of John's email here talking about, you know, using League as a self-development tool. And he even said himself that uh this is the first hobby he actually improved at or actually spent the time. That's why League and gaming is so beautiful and fun because it's so accessible to people. >> It's kind of like a bridge, isn't it?

It's it's the thing that allows them to connect to other areas of their life because you everyone needs momentum. Momentum is so hard to to get, you know, to start like how do you generate momentum in your life? And League is one of those things that obviously it's, you know, the coolest game and we all love it. >> Very accessible. >> Accessible. Yeah. compared to like traditional like imagine like if I want to get really good at a sport I need to like find people to play with. barrier to entry, the same barrier to entry, right? >> But also finding something that you just really like love, you know, gaming.

So many people satisfying to do so satisfying. It's fun. The game's awesome. >> It's and think about that people carry what they've learned here in League to other things in their life now. Now they have more discipline to, you know, go about their, you know, real life schedule better. They change, they make more healthier [clears throat] choices. They commit more into their work and career, whatever. But this is the the bridge. this is like the the the stepping stone >> for their next kind of thing. >> Yeah.

It's like gateway to like learning or improving, you know, >> or just Yeah. personal development, >> self-esteem. Just prove that you can do stuff. >> Yeah. Learn how to learn. >> Yeah. You can set a goal and achieve that goal. Like he surpassed his goal. >> And because League is now getting to the point where everyone knows it is hard, >> right? It is a very, very, very, very hard game. And when you start to get results in League, it's like, "Wow, I'm doing something." Like, if you get to Emerald in League, that is an incredible achievement because emerald is hard.

It's so so hard to get, >> especially after being after being stuck before. That's incredible. >> Brutal. Cuz you're not starting from zero. You're negative. Yeah. Negative something. >> So, shout out to Jinx, by the way. Jinx is the results farmer. If you want results as an AD carry, check out Jinx Bane Academy. >> Yep. Bolan Academy. Or if you're not ready for Boland Academy, we have a video on the We Teach League YouTube channel, Challenger versus Emerald with Tony. really good Jinx video.

That video alone actually has some really really good stuff for climbing with Jinx. So, I love Jinx. I've got another comment here before we move on. It's a bit of a joke. Um, in the Boland Academy, Nathan, you've got a couple of nicknames. I heard you say rock bottom M. >> Yeah. >> I've got here from Ryan says, "Nathan, rock bottom, wrong side of history. Let them rot m." >> So, that's what your um name is apparently.

Apparently, you've got other nicknames as well. >> Cool. >> Let them rot. >> Nathan, let them rot. >> Another one I say. I've been saying that for years. >> I've been saying that for years. Mott. Yeah, that's good. [laughter] I've been saying it for years. >> Sound like a you know the the boomer like the 80y old like singor back. Yeah for years. I was seen on a porch. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Need one of those. You know those like sound like those little >> soundboard thing. >> Soundboards.

We just press the button and it says that >> like a radio show. >> Yes. We should actually get that. Get all [laughter] our little sayings. >> It's like a Champ mastery one. Champ mastery. >> Yeah, we should. All right. All right. That wraps up our episode today, ladies and gentlemen. Again, three Blockeroo merch to a store near you. That's an online store. It's I don't know what the saying, but yeah, it's near everyone.

We'll see you guys on our next