Scientists studied doomscrolling. Here’s what they found. transcript

What does the science actually say about whether social media is ruining our attention spans? Personally, I'm finding it a lot harder these days to sit down and read a book or watch a movie without scrolling on my phone, and it's those short, vertical videos that feel particularly addictive. So how much of that is my ability to focus actually getting worse versus me just worrying about losing my attention span? All of these fears are fairly new, so there's not a ton of high quality studies that have been done, but there are a few.

And recently, the science YouTuber Joss Fong posted a really great explanation on her channel, Howtown, where she dove into what the existing science can tell us about whether that brain rot is real, or if it's all just in our fearful heads. In this conversation about attention spans, there's a phrase that I keep hearing, which is brain rot. What do we actually mean by that phrase brain rot? What are we actually thinking is happening to ourselves and what is happening to ourselves.

I think what people mostly mean when they talk about brain rot is a kind of low quality internet content on mostly algorithmic social media feeds, probably primarily these short form video feeds, but also things like on Reddit or Twitter. I think people imply a low quality, but also they're implying a certain effect that they have on that this is having on our minds. So it's the content and the impact of the content.

I think so. Yeah. And for me, the question has been, if I'm spending more and more of my life consuming these, this kind of media, is that having an impact on my brain? And I think what we hear from a lot of people is I used to be able to read books and now I can't. I used to be able to watch movies and now I can't. And so the implication with brain rot is that it's not just our environment changing and the fact that we have this device that's constantly distracting us, but there's actually a change happening in our brains.

And that was the question that I really wanted to chase down is whether that's actually true. So you went digging into an enormous amount of research. And I love what you found because there are actually people who have done scientific studies rather than just us thinking this is our perception, they've actually gone through and they've kind of measured what is happening. Tell us what you found about the weakening of our cognitive skills and its relationship with our devices, and particularly with short form videos.

There's not a ton of research. There are a few studies, and we really want to look for experimental studies because there's plenty of correlational research, which tells us that people who say they spend a lot of time consuming social media also show that they're having trouble with some cognitive skills. But that could be, you know, a reverse causation where people who have some trouble with cognitive skills find themselves unable to look away from these feeds.

So I wanted to find experimental studies where you could actually randomise people do a treatment and then see if there's a difference. And there are a couple of studies that have basically given a cognitive test and then exposed the participants to ten minutes, 30 minutes of scrolling on either TikTok or Twitter or YouTube. You know, they tried these different forms of media, and then they would redo the test and see if there was a difference in their performance before and after that, you know, scrolling.

And there are a couple of studies that have showed that the short form video feeds specifically are affecting cognitive skills, even with that very short exposure. And they're small studies, I would like to see them repeated and expanded, but they do suggest that skills like being able to pause and, and be critical about what you're thinking, what you're looking at, and skills like remembering to do something that you intended to do.

Those are the skills that we're seeing impacted by even just a short exposure to something like TikTok. What I found super interesting in what you found and in, in the video that you've done on this is that there's even a difference between scrolling the physical action of scrolling through TikTok. And if those same TikTok videos of a cat or a dog or whatever it is, are merged together in a kind of like a montage style, that there's something about the act of literally physically scrolling as opposed to just watching, even if the content is the same.

Content that affects our brains in different ways. Is that am I getting it right? Yes, that's exactly right. And that was one of the things that was really surprising to me, because I thought it was just, oh, short content is probably harming our attention spans, but it's not that the content is short, it's that it's the style of interacting where you kind of decide really quickly whether you're going to watch it or not with this swiping interface.

If we're forced to just watch a long string of videos, you don't see that deficit in the cognitive performance that you see when you're interacting with these apps as they're designed. And that design is actually key to making them work. And so it's kind of built in, which led me to wonder whether we should even continue to make this form of content. Do you know why that is, Joss? Did you get a sense of why, of why, what it is about our scrolling as opposed to just watching a montage?

Well, I think that there's something about the kind of flow that you get in when you're scrolling these feeds. You're making these really quick judgements about whether you want to keep watching, whether it's worth your time. And I think that that may switch our brain into a less reflective state, kind of a little bit more compulsive, a little faster acting. And it also, you know, you get to the more interesting stuff quicker.

So if there is a video that doesn't particularly interest you and would otherwise make you bored, being able to skip that just means that your media experience is a more concentrated entertainment, you know, unit. What did you find from your research on how permanent this- I don't know, I'm not sure I love this phrase brain rot. But anyway, let's use the phrase brain rot. How permanent is this brain rot? If we do this habitually, are we damned for eternity and we're just never going to be able to remember anything, and we're going to forget all of our dry cleaning and every meeting we were meant to go to, and why we didn't switch the lights off when we leave the room, or can we get over this?

We have zero evidence with which to speak to that question. I would say it's way too early to say that this is permanently damaging your ability to think clearly. But I also think that we don't necessarily need scientific evidence to make those judgements for ourselves. So if you - sometimes I do this, you know, kind of reflect on my day and our days, add up to our lives, you know, are we spending them the way that we want?

And I think that the overwhelming experience of people who get hooked on these feeds is I wish I didn't spend those three hours that way. And so I think that you- You feel kind of grossed out by yourself. Yeah. It's kind of like, well, I kind of don't remember anything that I just watched. I know I laughed at some of it. Maybe I shared it to some friends and maybe that helps maintain those relationships in some way. But generally we kind of regret the time we spend.

Our phones are like a monkey playing a trumpet. And if you're wondering why you can't read your book, you have to ask if that monkey is like in the room with you and that most of the time when we're having trouble focusing, it's because the monkey's playing the trumpet right next to you. Yeah, that's such a great way. I love that way of putting it. And actually, if you moved the monkey away and the sound of the trumpet was quieter, you'd be able to focus on what you were doing.

Right. Try that. Move the monkey away for three days, and see if you can find yourself reading a book or engaging with the thing that you want to be focusing on. I think that most of us will find that our attention spans are not broken. We are just carrying the monkey around with us all the time. So after doing all of this, did you change your screen consumption habits? And I'm not really talking about time here so much.

I'm talking about the content of what you were looking at. Not really, because there's something just irresistible about opening those. Like there is something to be said about giving yourself a little break and being able to laugh at something. There's genuinely useful tips in these feeds. And so I do have a little bit of FOMO if I was to cut it off altogether. But I will say it's useful to really provide, really - create really strict boundaries around when you use it.

So you're not going to be able to limit the time. So don't tell yourself, I'm only going to scroll for 15 minutes. That's a terrible strategy. What you need to say is I only scroll while I'm walking on the treadmill or while I'm pooping, you know, like literally only in those domains. Otherwise I don't open it. So I try to do that kind of thing. But I have to say, it's sort of an ongoing struggle for me. And it's an ongoing struggle for us at Howtown to, to wonder if we should keep making these kinds of videos because they are really important for creators.

But ethically, I'm still not sure whether we should be participating. Joss Fong, thank you for your honesty. It's very refreshing to hear speak, who's done so much research on this, and also still acknowledge how difficult it is for all of us. Yeah. I mean, you're not if you're struggling with this, you're not alone. We all are. Joss, thank you so much. Thank you.