Business Modeling and Working with Emotion transcript

automatic wow um oh well um i don't know how i'm tired i think i've been chatting with a lot of people doing a lot of careful just leave it careful careful just leave it trying to push my plate of food off the table he doesn't want me to eat just trying to line up the thing so you're in the shop i'm like slap happy i couldn't sleep last night i'll sleep right now i couldn't sleep this morning either when i was still tired so i'm adjusting i've had lots of ups and downs with the coved journey and then last night we were talking yeah there's like weird like exhaustion like tiredness waves um and it's you know when you're not feeling well and then you want to feel well and then you get it in your head that you're like oh i'm feeling better and then you don't feel good and then you start beating yourself up you're like why are not feeling like it's like a whole like thing or like not being patient basically yeah um yeah and then we've been talking about some work stuff that i think was cathartic like we went on a hike yesterday so we're like hiking around and kind of not yelling at each other but just like yelling at each other working through stuff um which i think was good and like healthy and like opened up some more space in my brain and then yeah last night like you try to go to bed and the thoughts are just like they're not even about anything specific it's just like here's more here's what you're like what is going on like something got loosened up yeah the like you had a blockage and then now there's like energy flowing through a place that was like constricted before it's very annoying i guess well you can be annoyed by it i like to have sleep when you when you earn it you can have it and then i took some of my herb tincture that helps me sleep and i did it in the dark and i couldn't feel the like droplets on my tongue so i like closed my mouth to see like how much i had and i was like well i think i just did a mic mimic and took a full dropper full i usually have like two drops of this stuff my friend and i'm i make it so like i know how strong it is like my friend mike or a friend like that give it to he's like i'm taking two of like dropper fulls of it i'm just like how and and i still can't sleep and i'm like i think you're taking too much that's the inverse after waking up say what do you feel fresh when you wake up you feel rested never yeah do you some days few days what's your secret no idea i think one of them is definitely no meal before the before the bedtime yeah four more hours before it a bit yeah interesting four or five we did eat later i ate later because we went on a later hike and then i was hungry afterwards and then we talked to a friend um and they're like similar kinds of conversations that we have maybe less technical but still like intellectual and like really engaging and connecting and i think i can't do that at night because it starts waking my brain up and then john came home and he had been out of town for a few days so then we start talking to him and i'm like i can like feel myself getting like ramped up and i'm just i don't want to sleep i want to go do like i'm like what is happening this is not my usual like protocol you know getting your energy back yeah how goes postcoded energy ramp-ups how's the business yeah jeff's business yeah or the juice project let me let me send you can you turn on america i probably turn it on and off at least 20 times for the past four hours yeah she's probably like you're crazy no i'm standing this is our first time i've been doing sprints to the aircon and this amazes me in a house like this there is no remote it's not i need to go press it under and then they go you don't need a remote we're gonna you you're gonna have the app we're just still under development but then we would go inside i might just give me the remote for now yeah because oh there is a remote yeah there's no that i know remote get the app soon i'm like it's been four months and i'm complaining we are not getting any exercise done and then just we are at home all the time this is the only exercise we are getting rather than it was it's um but let me send you the bottles that we got from the factories and then you guys take shape design on it it's just like empty glass bottles we're going to do like a design part of it you know old school milk stuff that you you know um they come up to the door and like give us the old glasses yeah oh basically that yeah the people expired classes um where it goes so i stand on telegram because it's just difficult to send here and one being on a the furthest one on the left and then to the right in terms of shape big decision so those are all off on the offer those are all on the table yeah okay we've been doing some boating internally i mean the second from the right i think is the most standard juice container that i kind of like the wide mouth though yeah second right second from the right the furthest left is too big it's like a flask yeah and the small i mean if it's sippable yeah i don't know i would love it the middle but in a bit bigger yeah i'm curious about that like most juices have wider mouths i don't know why because they want you drinking a lot of it so you go back and get more and it's so small it's usually the second from the left right or the second from the right yeah and you always after drinking one in like a one more so we don't want that have you know one should be enough a day and then the middle one is a perfect size i think it's like 400 milliliters or something it's um the perfect amount but and uh yeah the mouth is weird um yeah that's where that's where that at we still don't have a name so none of the branding stuff has started now names are hard i've been thinking about this like because we need to sort of we need to um like the overarching project that we're working on needs a name yeah it it needs a container like something pointable um and i've got this thing where i like to have the name grow up or like it pops up and we're like that's the name um this one is so abstract that it needs to be brought down to earth i think with at least a placeholder name and like yeah how yeah it's like naming a kid like what what are the how do you think about it right like and you know how do you give it enough room to grow into something that it needs to how do you give it uh some definition so that it um yeah people know who it is basically so that it's recognizable um and it's not a marketing thing that is just a piece of it like naming things for marketing so that it's like not just so it's catchy but more that's part of it but so it communicates something that there's room so that it can fill itself in um so yeah anyways like so it's like the concept of a namespace um and like this project could go for you know decades or whatever um and so like what do you do with that right like i guess we just name it pete space space pete space miss peters that was separate but i like pete's face it's like meat space yeah welcome to pete space this is where we hang out so we were calling it relational os yeah why don't you like that i mean relational maybe there's a couple things there's a thing called relational databases which is like sql databases and these kinds of things old school which are not really relational i mean in the sense yeah um so yeah like right now i have like the space is uh like relational relate related and then rolota which is a philosophical term but yeah but robotic sounds like food which again i don't know that that's a bad thing like a jelly or a gym [Music] she's not she's not usually helpful with this at all because she doesn't care well i don't know like i don't the these things don't affect me the same way i think as normal people like um because i'm analyzing information for something else like i like i mean that it is information i mean part of it is like well you i think about it like we're gonna have to live in this house we're gonna have to use it to when we talk about it it's gonna come up over and over again like yeah the term a lot of for some reason well it's unfamiliar it also feels ugly it feels like an ugly step-sister or something rolada it like has like uh yeah it sounds like remoulada which is like a food thing that's also what my association is with it it's not pretty i like that's an honest critique i'm not just that's feedback yeah um yeah i like that one more because it's it is open to interpretation to a degree where people because it's unfamiliar there's room for it to become something um yeah it is less populated it's less populated because it's not necessarily the i want to like it because of what it means but yeah um so i don't know like relate is potentially that's more like a it's more of a designy you know like relate it has like a it means l and it it can also be the verb to connect yeah you know so and then that is the underlying action of what the os does like it is effectively relating and then in the relation there is story so uh but that domain space is pretty our name space is pretty populated which anyhow this is i've been playing with this how do you name stuff oh my process it's uh it's a process i've been fine-tuning for the past 10 years i come up with a name um it depends like with ren clara like it needs to sound clean yeah i'm all right uh rihanna is like in swedish clean and then clara is like done kind of a thing uh swedish is clean oh yeah i mean yes rhian in french is nothing i think that's interesting yeah and then i would just take nothing clean take a name synonyms then dot com domains then play with the letter then there is no process basically like relate synonyms would be uh it's nice because this one has some puzzle pieces to it so you are putting things together um bracket multiple meaning it like because it's not one thing it should have space to to breathe um it should have multiple definitions that is part of the the place that i want to yeah and we're not like planting a flag in the word you know but yeah it should be you should be able to talk about it like you know what's happening in relate what's you know we're going to a late event uh yeah like we're building relate yeah yeah relate doesn't really work then to me for me i'm not good at this though but like you saying those things it feels like weird i'm going to a relate event yeah i mean so i have to assist there's a lot of disbelief that's how this works like can it work i mean people there are some weird ass people will do all kinds of things so like you know can it catch though is the the yeah and can it can it feel do you know when you get a good one um you can watch i've watched many many good ones take and like it really does come down to what it's representing rather than like so if you have something that is of value and yeah and it is in a line like the the word or the the the like nomenclature is in alignment with that value it doesn't need to to be perfect in the sense that it is yeah completely descriptive but it should like buzzard work this way yep we just picked it up and started we're buzzard that's fine it works um is buzzard like a pretty thing is it you know it sounds good i like that one you know i like that one sure i basically named it in the middle of the night one night buzzard it sounds good did they come around that time winner what so name this thing yeah i'll to try again tonight anyways for now it's probably just probably a placeholder but placeholders tend to stick but egg boots is there a name for the sound when something actually clicks connects you know what i mean when it comes to not even the sound i mean is that thing has a name where you take a one puzzle piece and order any kind of matches and then like click insight because the thing together is something unique it's not one of the two things it's like a third thing it's a type of synthesis yeah like it's an aha moment i think there's products called aha yeah yeah there's here there's a road mapping tool called huh oh really aha we're on track yeah i don't know at that moment in the ux design thing it went very trending for a while so where is that moment during the onboarding i'm like come on yeah i mean funny yeah like i think that's that's there's a bunch of stuff in cognitive science about this but they're pretty technical terms i think um yeah i don't know i mean basically it's there is a an understanding that is found yeah an unlock or a achievement or uh what's that the opposite of a trap yeah it's insane i i mean i feel it sounds like insight yeah i mean it something makes sense to you in a way that it didn't before things click yeah so the eureka event i guess is the closest to an an event description um but that's you know it's got a bunch of yeah i don't know like that one is it's weird too with names like you can put a placeholder name on something and it's not really called that but it gives you something to reference have you done this before with projects placeholder um i mean we're doing it now with like honeycombs it's the closest thing to what we're kind kind of trying to and it maybe it takes maybe it doesn't maybe it renames itself um yeah i mean people do it like you can see it in startups a lot right like they just name something so that you can get out the door and then like they figure out what they're doing like a year down the road they're like we're actually called this and then there's a momentum behind it so yeah i think we're probably going to end up doing that because you know we're talking about like sort of opening up our discord and and like trying to expand our surface area or whatever and we need to be able to point to something but we're not going to do like a big branding exercise and it's not what we're doing um it doesn't make sense right now yeah um so we're gonna pick something that's top of mind for you i see well i'm searching a bunch of basically my naming process has begun [Music] for just random like associations yeah now for this thing i just like your demon mask in the corner yeah it's pretty creepy it is and in some calls i see like they go the eye goes to the corner they're looking at and i'm like that's the one depends on what you're trying to get out of the call yeah it's like what was it we just watched this terrible movie jack ryan jack ryan um because her brain's gone so we can only watch dumb things and like the the like russian oligarch villain or whatever just has like a grenade on his desk like okay so when you come into his office yeah symbology it looks much creepier during the day because then kind of the sun comes out that's good it's good um i like calls when they go they try to act normal and they go i think she had one recently and then uh did i are you alone i'm like no uh where is that my daughter is okay can't you talk i'm like something is off with the person that i'm talking about they go um do you want to go to her i'm like like what the f like what is it is it there is something behind you ah it is it's a mask it's what it is during the day kind of like science a ghost and blah blah blah oh people actually get like worked up yeah because it looked it looks it looks off during the day it used to be right in the middle yeah over here but then it's it became like too much to look at so i just deported it to this corner of the room moving further and further out of frame yeah now it stays there it won't it won't go anywhere it's really i really like it but um yeah it freaks people out sometimes myself yeah that's part of the thing it's uh i mean that's what these things are for right they're meant to to remind you of the of your mortality effectively or different things i mean there's all the oh a red rug yeah this whole room is a it's a weird vibrancy it's like a king's room there you go you got all your it's hell i mean it you have that thing and then the carpet is good um it's nice interestingly well not interestingly my computer is here so i'm stuck here even though it's a laptop i can't move it anywhere yeah i've been figuring this out um because i worked so many years like [ __ ] in a big right 20 yeah with like a huge computer like sitting in front of the thing like perched there and like that is where i do work that's where i do hard work um and so many associations with that space then yeah so dump all that energy there yeah yeah like unlearning that like sort of pattern like i flip out i'm like well i can't just i have another one though like when i code i can sit on the couch and like use a laptop so like i just piggybacked off of that and then now when we're moving around all the time i don't have like a consistent workspace so like i've got like a little stand and like a keyboard keyboard and whatever and then i've got a 13 inch monitor and this is what i got to deal with so it's been weird doing that i work on the ipad a lot now because i write on that so like i'm just trying to figure out i got like a new ipad too so it's like a computer basically i mean it feels substantial i feel like it's important to note that because my association with the ipad because i have an older one thinking about someone writing on that a bunch it feels like i mean something's wrong with them what's that you know with the keyboard keyboard he's got like a whole setup yeah like it's so i've been doing a lot more doodling and you know like drawing as like a thinking process um we're actually playing with the idea of like turning that into a format that you can put on blockchain because it's just svg and like you can write that straight to the blockchain um and then there's a whole bunch of [ __ ] you can do with this you'll see uh but yeah like sharing that sharing my notes or whatever like with the rest of the like team has been interesting because they go and they i never thought that anybody could read these things um i've never shared like because i usually have big note pads like sketch pads and i just draw these like big structures and stuff you know if i'm like mapping out a ui or if i'm i use the same kind of tech like techniques to map out like thought processes um and it never occurred to me to like show anybody this stuff like um and then kristen does this and and shares it and then some of the other guys like we we did a session where we drew together um like in i think it's called scribble together or something it's one of these like you know you can draw an ipad and then beam it out to like co-presence thing yeah so there's something there so yeah i don't know like the the work is breaking out into other interfaces like like different spaces to to do different types of thinking um i think it's going to be more and more of this in general like the computer as a place to go to do work it should be the inverse the computer should be there for you when you're ready to think or do work like i think we're slowly moving in that direction clearly as much the inverse is like there's other tooling available like one of the things if you have a markdown as your sort of basis for a blog like we've been using you can do that on your phone yeah like that's crazy so you don't have to have a full computer like it's nice to know that there's optionality i guess yeah sure i think that like so in a tool sense like the tooling should afford that like it should offer opportunity to to think in alignment with what where you're at like i'd like the idea that there is more physicality there's more movement um yeah i don't know we've talked about this before but like the ar thing like the the the environment becomes your canvas um like you know google glass tried to do this but their like version of it is like you can read emails while you're walking around like okay no one wants to do that everyone does that anymore yeah so like you know can you do deeper work or different types of work or whatever you know this is all i don't know like i will say that the obsidian and like the apple i guess mac os like filing system works really well i've been like amazed at how well the mac os like file system transfers across all of my devices like i'm i still can't believe it i don't know why like there's no syncing problems like you can pull up sure any information like i like that like i like to be able to move between devices yeah especially the copy and paste across devices that's magic right there yeah oh yeah i forgot about that yeah it's so smooth it works every time it's so relaxed it does feel magical little things like that that's how things should work though like takes time yeah yeah i mean we're at the absolute beginning of that like and it's it takes a two trillion dollar company to pull it off so yeah i don't know like the the fluidity of of like interface um between hardware devices i mean this is how the protocols work right so like we've had a version of this with email right like you know you can have different email clients on different laptop any you know it can be on any device effectively right and you can move between them nobody owns email if we could do that with drawings and images and you know browsing and all kinds of different stuff there's the there's a potential for fluidity there that is much greater than what it is now i think so that is locked into yeah apps and platforms yeah i mean we like for that like copy and paste to work like i mean we've got like i don't know five or six thousand dollars worth of computer gear around and like that's the that's the you've got to have that so that it makes any sense i don't know got to drive the price down on that it should be a foregone conclusion but i don't know we'll just install it into your brain that's one that's one route i mean are we gonna move towards that more like embedded tech stuff because that's crazy to think about like if we did move that way and it had value and then people are like i don't know drugging people and then surgically removing devices because they could sell them on a black market what the hell are you talking about this is what happens when i don't sleep well i'm in a sci-fi book right now clearly i mean it feels like i mean there there will be some reality to that sure i mean are people drugging people and stealing their phones now they can break into their house but like it's harder to break into someone's brain to steal something and if you don't want to murder them you have to drunk them i mean i guess if you're a i'm not i mean i'm being i'm not totally being silly about this like that seems like a plausible reality where people have embedded that power it has value there's rich people who have like better operating systems embedded and then someone wants that like i mean it so this would assume a world where this embeddable thing you could just take it out of somebody's head and pop it into somebody else's head no maybe and i mean so i doing brain surgery is like a pretty precise but maybe you get it i don't know elon musk is trying to get it standardized so you have a input output or whatever i don't know that's weird to think about like if you get the embedded stuff what are you talking about no you know whenever you see somebody just weird emotions popping up in their face when you're looking i'm like what's going on is that are you okay what kind of a movie is this um turns out she's watching herself in youtube that'll do it yeah it's the most emotive [ __ ] that's what i look like okay yeah it's an emotional journey it is one last thing about the embedded stuff this is reasonable um so if you did have embedded stuff there is like my dad and his wife both have this sort of like way of operating in the world right now because they have hearing aids both of them and they're bluetooth hearing aids and you can't see them really so they have this like embedded thing and then they'll get a phone call and they have to use the phone to like turn it on like to pick up the call but then all of a sudden like you're talking to them and then they're like hold on and then you're what and they're on a phone call and you're just like what is going on so if if we do embed technology like the embedded nature of being able to talk to people like that's weird you can like it's basically like sharing thoughts like you're in someone's head like that that thought like i was thinking about that book that i always forget the name of where there's some drug nexus where you take the drug and you can communicate or commune with other people through thought like there's an open like network basically um but this could be moderated mediated by technology that's an interesting i mean we have we have this now this exists now airpods airpods people i mean people are in a conversation in the room they just pick up their phone and they're in the more seamless it gets where you don't have there's no you don't have to hold any hardware something's embedded there's like some i don't know how you do it but there's some protocol for opening up like allowing that transaction and then you'll probably get things where you've got couples where like em and farzad are connected and across the room he can just say in her head like because they have an open protocol like like what's going on are you okay you're making weird faces so you can stay back without saying anything like i'm fine i'm watching myself on youtube so how long have you not been able to sleep well one night yeah one night and i took nice you can write a sci-fi book yeah one night and i took a passion flower i should go look up what that is passion flower has very um relaxing like effects so like a passion flower tea or tincture can help with sleep the heavy hitter skull cap meditation doesn't make you kind of uh calm and ready to sleep do you meditate i do when my brain is like this it doesn't i don't know there's like no stopping it like it's just like i can relax in bed like i don't fight it anymore john and i were talking about this the other night i used to freak out dave can attest to this because i never had problems with sleeping and then when i did i was like i can't sleep i'm flipping out like i'm like you get used to it it's fine well the thing john and i were talking about was you start thinking about the next day so i'm not going to be able to sleep and then tomorrow i'm going to feel like this and then i have a meeting and it's not going to go well and like his thing was like and then i'm going to drink too many cups of coffee and then this is going to happen because of that and there's this like yeah you created an anxiety feedback loop now i don't do that i can just sort of sit with it but it is like a meditation thing um and i'll find like i'll relax and then it does this thing where it just pierces through again and it's just like i'm not letting go of you yet and i'm like okay we'll stay up a little longer and that just keeps going and then the whole night i won't feel like i'm sleeping and then i'll realize i'm dreaming and i'm like oh so i'm dreaming which means i'm sleeping it's very confusing um what's the output channels for getting thoughts out ideas out so usually like i'll write um but it agitates me more to get up and have to do things because like i don't know i don't like the feeling like i don't like getting out of bed um because i'm trying to relax like i'm resting basically qigong works for this um i found that yoga doesn't help like i can i can do all of these things i can meditate do yoga like it helps but it doesn't put me to sleep like i've not found anything that takes this away i don't think it goes like i think it's just a if i have it for a lot of days in a row then i don't know i haven't really had that lately though no i mean typically i just write it out if it's really because you know if you break through some so if you have an insight that is like related to or i've noticed if i have an insight that is related to some work or some life stuff or whatever um especially if it's been something that i've been looking at through a lens that isn't like not up to the task to seeing reality and then you you figure out a way to see it then there's like a rush of energy that that is loosened up and but it's not so the energy that's released and the information that's released is not um it's new and it's unstructured is what i find yeah so it's like being like it's like a fire hose of information where it feels like a a trip or something like psychedelic where like connections are being made and you're just like what is like why do i have to be party to this can i go to sleep and then you do this and sometimes i'll have dreams where it's like pipes connecting basically like or like code like like being piped like well you have new flow and then you have a way and part of the unlock is that you are seeing the world in a way like that is in alignment with how things are flowing you're not like you know it's rather than like diverting a river and being like it should be this way it's just like there's a river already there and you're building a path along the river and you notice that you can build a path along the river um the reason that the qigong works with this is it's all flow-based yeah and so you you feel this energy and then you can sort of you can feel it's it's a there's a letting go practice right because you need to be present to do the movements properly so like if something is like distracting you like it you'll fall out of the flow state so like you let it go or you move it around and like you can work with the the like material nature of the the energy or the the substance of the energy and sometimes what that does is it's like okay well you can put it aside or you can move it around it's not a foregone conclusion that it needs to buzz in you all the time um that's what i found and then and then knowing that having the felt sense of being able to like have a relationship to the energy is very relaxing and so i don't know there feels like something has been done or something there is a conversation now with the thing and then i can usually i usually pass out if i need to but that's if it's like really really potent although sometimes you just have to sit with it until it chills yeah i have to like so like chi gong wouldn't work for me because i don't practice qigong so i can't pick it up in the middle of the night and i try it doesn't speak to me for some reason um i don't know i mean it's interesting other energetic practices well yoga is completely different in that regard like yoga and like i guess the the way that i deal with it is more like the yoga thing where you don't judge what is happening like in your mind sure um regardless of the situation so that's basically yoga's putting you through a bunch of postures and it's like see if you could deal with this one and not freak out it's kind of like the the practice and you get to get into deeper and deeper like it's weird the loosening up of the body like i don't know i think it's been the best thing for me just for general like physical health um but i'm doing it's like it's an equanimity exercise over and over and over again and that helps when i'm laying in bed because i'm just like you don't have to fight this thing you don't have to listen to it it just needs to do its thing um you're just present for it's not good it's not bad it just is it's really hard to not like judge things holy [ __ ] why is this happening this shouldn't be happening i shouldn't be doing this something's wrong with me you should be sleeping and then and then it starts applying to the content of the thoughts like thinking about a friend and like a situation that's going on right now and then i'm just like don't pick it up like there's nothing there but i just want to like play it all out and like let's work with him like there's no one here to work with though like there's nothing more to do put it down i haven't been able to steal the mind for a very very long time even when i meditate i never get that i don't even reach 80 percent of what i used to reach when i was in sweden meditating because i was so distant from my thoughts i was my own i wasn't my thoughts basically so i could actually watch watch them everything go by but nowadays when i meditate i'm just this feels like i'm faking the experience it doesn't feel that i'm reaching that yeah i couldn't feel like that yeah it's about the practice usually like can you be present though and notice that you're following the thoughts i started doing like going downstairs for a walk and try to not push myself as hard during exercises but then the foot has been broken for yeah um but whenever you kind of get a get a moment to look at a tree or look at the top of something or at least for me that's when i kind of like it's happening like this is life now and that's how it feels like if you are present no it feels more of um in a river and i'm just going with the flow and i feel like we've we've got a lot of opportunities now trying to seize them and [Music] it's half it's present in a way that i'm excited about everything that is happening but not present in a very calming sense where i can enjoy the the wind or i can enjoy the yeah the smell of the wind or anything like that um why this one thing is weird though why can't you enjoy it what seems to what's the nature of the distraction i guess or like what is something pulling on you say it again always next it's like it uh as soon as interesting yeah so i just pulled out my notebook i mean not notebook i don't carry the notebook around my note app and i would just write something or then now um huh i actually have a manager so i just dump everything to him every morning and i'm like all right free free space of mine yeah but it's still it's better i feel a little bit distant but i would love to get back to the the clarity of thoughts that i had four years ago um do you have a sense of why you're chasing what's next do you know what you're are you looking for something uh yeah i mean in my mind there's always like it here is i need to do this then after that that then i would be able to distance myself from some certain projects certain work yeah then i would get some more free time now i just started this person put it in touch with the other person and then make them work better together so they're in the flow i have probably two probably three steps away from checking out from most things and then just chase these physical um type of projects and uh less than just views juice clothes fun things like that um but then now we got up with this kung lorem that came back with some work and we're like all right there we go um after eight months of trying to figure out a better relationship where tree drops could act as a startup studio for them um to as a kind of a design house for their idea so whenever they have an idea for things let's just flesh it out and if there is a potential of it being something separate then we bring in and now actually build a company around it and the team and then they would sell it instead of selling a design you buy the company yeah everybody in it um i always had a difficulty kind of separating the two and that pitch usually failed because we're like what's the difference where do we actually charge money for in terms of design consulting or the ideas that we are delivering and when do we say hey we can build this you guys can't build products we can't do it for you [Music] then we came up with a process around it and we had the call two days ago and we are back to chasing that in and thing and then three drops gonna have a relationship with them so we know there is always gonna be work and money coming in and within in we have one thing that we're going to design and then go send it around in pass it along vc's to see who's interested in investing then take their offer and then show it to the to these two conglomerates here and say do you guys want to invest a partner up or whatever you guys can because whenever we have an idea and we have two now um we flesh out some designs for it we showed it to some people and i go yeah uh this could be potentially something that could work in thailand the idea um they were like who are the right partners for this it needs to be backed by government stamps need to be on it for it to be trusted as such uh it's not a startup uh although it has some social element to it it's like a consumer-facing product where um well yeah let's just there's a whole thing that i need to uh update you guys on in inside of things so but if nnn takes off is that like is that part of what you'll be working on like that was a initial idea i started building all of these teams so i could and hire a ceo for three drops i could do in it yeah but then i realized the massive amount of work that i'm signing myself up to at the end like why am i doing this so you would hand it off then at some point here the idea was that we could turn it into a well indian is an incubator a startup studio just that we have in house funding [Music] and we would be building products around um a knowledge source so whoever that person is in an enterprise and we would just hire a ceo that could as soon as it's raised money ready it would get a ceo and it would just go go away [Music] but yeah any product for the for the first three months would be me doing them with whoever that is the partner to turn their information into a solution and it's uh it was just i was i went like oh there is an opportunity why not take it we've never tried it we've been bootstrapping things all the time what happens if we don't um and i'm not what what happens just hire one person and then i hire two people we'll figure it out and then three four months later like maybe we are doing this are we doing this and then it seems like we are doing this um but i think it's still four months away from actually getting it on the paper and like this is it um easily four months away i would say four six months away from in and the first venture gets backed the way that we want it uh they take the majority we build it out it gets the valuation you buy it for the price of the valuation you're not paying us for the design that we did for the product or you let us take other vcs and we raise more money for it with the chase of becoming thailand's third promising startup anyway the reason they reached out to me is that they want to build a software company and the hired people and seems like nobody in here done product that they come to us to design some stuff then we talked about all right so what is it yeah they go we have this video conferencing tool i'm like in the past two years since covid started everyone as a video company yeah i mean so many i mean all of them are startup facing small team facing collaborative designer engineering um but you can compete with yeah so if you want to complete globally video conferencing is not the right space for it take it but we already have it this blah blah all right how about we just make things around it because it seems like that thing needs to be in it for the for them to invest or pay oh my god we can do something so right off the bat all of the all of the video conferencing tools are designed for collaborating for designers developers and genes all the remote workers to do things together none of them helps with the decision making so what if we are designing something for enterprise level most tools break after you are passing let's say i could confidently say it's actually eight people but in some tools actually like yeah it works up to 20 people but then at that point it's just a presentation um and uh if we do a video conferencing tool it needs to be for executives help with the decision making it would be enterprise-facing that makes sense we can't make the meetings interactive that could be the only idea that could be something that you could go bring into europe or u.s and like hey we have something otherwise you cannot go and say we have whiteboard in our video call we have this everybody is great at it currently and yeah building features is easy like and more and more and more people can do it because it's becoming more and more accessible because there's more and more talent in the the pool and people will go to the thing that they can understand or whiteboard i can build that um and it's collaborative so and everybody in trying to solve their own problems and product people solving their own product issues and everything looks the same but executives solving their own problems that never happens they can't they don't have the tools or they don't have the skills so if we say how about this does this sound good oh great um let's do that am i great we do a two weeks design round we show it to the big boss and if he says yes we're taking eight weeks and we do the kind of a recurring thing so concepts for three drops cost this much once we like there is something in here we extend it with another two months we flesh it out we send it to our bc friends in europe and us looks good something you want to invest in great it looks like we have something interesting you guys take it we don't do it but if you guys come like a broker yeah kind of like a design broker yeah it's design vision brokering um that's interesting packaging design fiction yeah talking about this a bit like so part of like the discussion we were having is i guess in this world like i'm kind of like an executive and like i have a vision for how like i want to do things and like how i have been acting and then he's helping broker and like translate and design what i'm saying because i don't know how to do it so that we can share it with the broader team basically to build it yeah um or to get buy-in so that's just it's interesting there's a pattern here that i'm like feeling into technical translation which i picked this up off of my dad this is what he did for a living just in russian with nuclear missiles so my version of this is slightly less explosive maybe uh but yeah like yeah i mean there is something to like you have an understanding of what is possible right and and how to combine these things into something that is workable like uh who would think they're valuable too and bringing those people to the table like that i mean all of this is valuable yeah um and then so what you're doing is you are packaging plausibility so like you have a set of problems like here's some design thinking on how you can approach this problem set and then here's a package on how it could plausibly get built in the world with an economic model right because it's easy to it's easy to do the dribble thing here's an interface and if this only worked everything would be great but like what what is the back end that leads into the interface from like the the finance from the the engineering from the the organizational stuff like all of that stuff if you can package these things as potential companies you can sell them as like effectively a protocol for building these kinds of things um it makes sense and then it's it's about having a catch and then like having the the team that is taking it over understand how to move forward with it and make it their own i guess so yeah it's interesting but this is consulting still though um we are getting paid for doing this yeah well you know well paid but um the idea is that if i can prove that i'm not all talk here here it is we've done it with two projects what if we do it for uh none of the ideas that we've delivered especially with the things that we did with the with the telecom company uh none of them got built and they're still having a lot of difficulties doing it because they don't know how to approach things they don't know yeah nobody doesn't understand the philosophy of building this way yeah and everybody has always been salary people nobody done anything on their own it's just very difficult to have that mindset as a they have business people having their own companies in the past but no product people had had or shipped product on their own or for clients i think when you are being working an agency set up you learn so many things about prioritization which they're all lacking yeah i'm keen into seeing if inan can be possible because then it would be probably one of the few in the world that has this kind of setup we've talked to others um i just don't in it would all be done today if he owns madrid i mean if he owns basically everything and we do the base 10 model we own the brand beyond the intellectual property the ip is that what the guy is all about and what corporate's all about but um i don't know we are kind of approaching the other way and see if they're open with the we design adventures um we design a solution it looks it works it seems promising gets some traction people want to talk to us about it we flesh out the entire v1 and pass it along we want to raise some money or do you want to buy it and do it yourself or you know blah blah blah um i think the biggest part with this three drops model though this is not in it um setting a fixed price for things i still don't like it um that would make things so much easier because then we could actually charge up front for id for things quarterly because it's the way that it needs to be with enterprise otherwise like this project this much this project that much because the potential of the project is much bigger than like we cannot charge the same for a small social app versus an enterprise facing sas solution or but it needs to be um three drops do we want to throw this idea at them probably cost around that much if we can have that relationship we could the collaboration works very smoothly in terms of financially we have no problems with the so go back to the fixed price versus like what what's the i mean i know if you have a fixed price coming in like it's a lot easier to budget it's a lot easier to do everything um not funny for them for them okay yeah so like the they what is the yeah what's the what's the relationship there they want like fixed pricing because it's easier for their mental like what i mean and you're part of the organization effectively like this is the the in organization out organization mentality knowing the cost of things would make it easier for us to get all kinds of projects from them faster without hey how much business should this be i think we should be doing what's the do we or you know what i mean like we could go three drops takes as an example number another real number right 100k for a concept yeah all right great we got it v1 usually around not usually around but half a million or whatever um great so is this idea big enough to throw this along you know towards their uh basket garden whatever um otherwise they're gonna be they're gonna have schedule called with us they told me the idea i'm like great and then we go figure it out in two weeks we come back it was big it's gonna be big this is how much it's gonna cost and like yes but then it's not easy to schedule those type of calls with the people that have budgets uh we just want to make something smooth you like the idea it would just yep i know the cost boom check done and we can't charge quarterly then back to the model that we told them six months ago yeah quarterly means x amount of ideas can be fleshed out um get a glimpse into your future um throw whatever you want to throw to us and we visualize it you pass it around we told you how um so is this just like a retainer deal where they're retaining some amount of work over a set period of time and you'll do vision work with whatever they've got but there's a budget of that vision work yeah i hate the word recurring i mean a retainer model because we work so hard to get out of it but with this to be a smooth transparent successful relationship it needs to be a retainer model but for vision not for people um because retainer is usually number of times number of weeks or people attached to it is more of a they're retaining the right to have vision work done so like and that vision work you can put a sort of you could peg a price to that vision work like generalized vision work like you're operating as uh i don't know if any of this makes any sense but this is what's coming to mind um like so you're operating as like a symbiotic entity right like you're not part of the firm and but you are you have created an api an interface to the firm and what what you're available to do is be like an appendage that works in vision and vision has like a set rate like i don't know how you set that rate but you have a stable of talent that can come in and out they're not like they're not uh uh uh uh like you know it's we were talking about this like they may want some specific thinker within that stable of talent but you're representing that talent right and you're putting a set price on generalized quality of talent so like if you need vision work you come to me and then i'll arrange all of it and you will get vision back you don't need to know who's doing it you don't need to know the hourly stuff it just costs this much per whatever exactly yeah that's always what we've been charging and we just need to put a cap on it like this is the it's a fixed amount it's a fixed amount for the first year we sign a one-year contract yeah and it's charged quarterly and we give you a bucket per quarter we go pick your three ideas and we flesh out three ideas in this quarter what do you want to explore and they go don't know but we just want something in that space we go make one um it's fun it's the right way for an enterprise to come up with a solution instead of forcing it um and if any of these and we would basically slowly build a team around this just this one client yeah i mean this is the the demand so like what i'm trying to so what i'm pushing into now is like what that interface looks like what the nature of that interface is like how they are thinking about how to use this vision time right like you know do they use it to produce something that is actionable that like will turn into an actual product or are they using it as a device to better see the world with like your your their their eyes into the future and like yeah yeah so offering them that and then being like hey we can concept this stuff we can come up with things that are plausible right they are buildable um they require some amount of resource like it's kind of yeah you have to learn making it like moving it away from like a solid project that like has to have deliverables um in the sense that like it's affecting bottom line directly yeah i don't yeah i there's too much politics i don't understand enough of like what these people want you're on the ground on it so um i want to promise them three ideas quarterly fleshed out and um but what i'm pitching them is basically in and on a consulting fee which is what i don't want to do um then why did that the whole indian thing because in this case it would be we don't know what you should explore like we have one we have actually four pick one pick two of these that you like the most and like these two and we kind of guide them and it seems like we are at this stage where we're like that's not a good idea how about this okay so if you are at that point we are basically making projects for ourselves we're getting paid to do them yeah this is where i ended up why did i started in them because at the end and we are the same thing we come up with a ah thailand probably needs this and then we went design it and then we showed it around and like yeah people need it now what um how about we flesh it out until the v1 designs and send it around for raise money and then we go to them and that would be we either sell the designs to them but then they wouldn't know what to do with it but we like we would charge this much to build it then it turns out into turns into a three drops consulting project again it's difficult to draw the line between this is in and this is three drops um yeah it feels like something's missing in the ecosystem right now i think it's i think it's demand um from so okay uh are these consumer facing like projects well it's in and um with everything we do with like no more consumer-facing tools yeah so it's the executive stuff enterprise or government right no i mean we just designed a consumer-facing social network uh we designed the directory for tourists um as kind of borders opening in opening up um we created uh uh in two days we like what are the spaces in and we should operate in tourism tech that's new old age all of these all right like that sounds interesting kov is gonna end soon um let's just create something when tourists come here they know where to go what to do um what to buy great if you can influence their buying decisions there is a golf stamp on it you basically can run them their pockets is deeper than the local pockets um [Music] then if we make a solution where it recommends them places to go places to visit to buy to stay we can influence their buying decisions and whoever we sell this to or give this to they run their entire tourist experience and we like um how about we put the visa stuff in it too so you can extend or apply for other visas and they're doing the smart piece and like boom we have a solution we designed it and then we showed it to them yeah that sounds great i'm like great we started with tourists and if this thing becomes a useful thing for tourists we can actually make a network um a social network for locals to do the similar thing but for mainly user generated content on the map what's what what are the things that are happening in here because currently they are all doing it on twitter it's not made for it um all of the events or news or things that are happening in thailand is usually discovered through twitter people taking pictures of places this thing is happening here there is a protest protest here or there is a accident here there is an event here we designed the networks of the social network for japan a couple of years ago with metalob and we designed the idea that we want a social network uh we wanted we wanted to be map based like perfect we have something let's just go play around with the idea but now it works in here it would work here um yeah we want to make it easier for people to come here to discover thailand at the new thailand not here are the massage places and here are the beaches but more of a um so what it what are the frictions for it not working no it works it's just that is it inan or is it three drops where do we draw the line that and then we have a company os where we are integrating the solution with all the tools to make it people that people are not tampering with data when they are reporting upwards um things are easy to be pulled from different data that's company was that sas that can be in it all of the consumer facing stuff we sell as a through three drops to the enterprise and things that we believe we are able to turn it into a company three drops doesn't build out the product in full usually right it's just the design yeah yeah yeah the stack so there's something missing like they're like who builds the thing like so there's like uh something in the ecosystems missing like you've got like a good pipeline but you need to add another piece yeah uh engineers that we could actually build it or we can bring in the developer partners to build it out it's just um and we do it with the with the three drops too although the client comes for product design but then suddenly we do branding and marketing and sometimes development for them too but from the outside three jobs it's only a software design agency yeah i mean this one's this one like needs to be built and then like and used yeah it has to if it's going to hold yeah because like the someone has to own this and like nurture it over time yeah or else they don't go anywhere so how about this is actually tree drops that we are kind of proving that we are able to do these come up with the ideas and we can flush them out and pass it around um execution is what you're missing here yep yeah but are we doing it on three drops or inun or something else i mean so if the in the inin case indian makes more sense i mean if you're if you are trying to find a stable of like because you're saying that you need to be the founder on each of these things for a bit no so okay then you need to find that second i'm just putting the team together i'm just putting the the product together once in a good place i can put a team together then um yeah i think it it makes more sense to me but three drops do what it's good at what it has been good at forever and then is the one that's bringing like the sort of the idea and concept um two three drops and then they're passing it back and they're like here now make this and then it's like yeah that makes sense for what we felt out into the world and like you're you put the front end the design on it we will build it now and own it so with three jobs it would be we get hired to do divisions and designs and if they want us to execute it then it turns into an inun project but then the money that they're paid already for three jobs could be will be considered as an investment into the idea and we continue executing yeah i mean three drops could be a subcontractor of inin right there's like a package here where there's like a pipeline and you just put part of the process like outside of the walls of inand because you have a trusted third party which is three drops that you know you can work with they don't need to know where the design is coming from unless that's a value-add like you know because that's part of your stable of talent you have a pipeline for design and vision that you've vetted and now you're building sort of uh like an executable like company thing right within it like it's gonna have a founding team it's gonna have like properties to to build out and execute on this thing it can cap like a resource of three drops to get the vision you know work done um and then somebody or some buddies are running the teams that are on top of these projects to see it you know it's incubating their seeds right so finding the the founder product fit or you know somebody who can deal with the larger organization also deal with the running of the team you can all you can create you know in and can offer services on management and like coordination and admin and all of these kinds of things yeah so when they come to us with the thing that already exists right so all now it's solved right three drops does the design when there is an execution time indian comes in it becomes a venture of lava [Music] but if the thing started as a thing that already existed in their company in this case that bunch of these tools that they started they never shipped it never got anywhere they're like this is ours if it comes to you it's still ours it won't be yours then in an is how would that make sense um i mean this i mean if they're drawing a line on that like okay well you can have your pile of [ __ ] and it won't work keep it i don't want it but i will play with it if you give me a piece of that and then i'll make it good and i'll put a team on it and it'll be activated or you can keep your pile of [ __ ] take it to somebody else they can have it too i don't want it see ya i don't i mean what's the deal here like you don't need their money like what you want to do is develop like you want to develop something together right and to develop something together you need a piece of that so that you have an incentive structure so that you can bring in high quality talent and offer them options to own a stake in this thing because if you want high caliber work done you need to you need to give ownership stake to peop that's how it works now right okay like if they invitational then you're inviting partnership right like let's work on this together yeah so they they pay three drops we do the design everything goes well they're like let's execute this i mean like great i can't bring in i can build a team around this i can put all of this in in place but then it will be an end we'll start it as a new venture blah blah you guys own the majority we take a small stake um what happens to the money they already paid three drops i mean consult it would be is it a speed investment yeah you can look at it that way this is an on-ramp to a further partnership so like we were we are on going to offer you vision work or however you package that and then if the the vision is in alignment with what you're trying to accomplish then there is a further like you know partnership that we can expand out and that's an equity deal and you need some of this equity so you can pay it to founding types so that the thing can be run like because the founders are not going to work for no equity it just won't they won't do it like so if you want the caliber of somebody who can take this thing and run it and also interface with the larger organization i don't understand the founder type that works with this larger organization and what the deal is there i think that needs to be worked out but there's something there but yeah what's the goal of the precede money actually like so investors give a founder precede money of let's say 700 right that seems to be an average price right now nowadays was much smaller four years ago so now it's around 700 700 is just a design in most cases or they're actually products a little bit built i mean especially with enterprise facing solutions 700 gives you a design of the thing it shapes the idea you have a pricing model in place you have the business model in place you have the market research done the product can you type it sure so you're getting i mean it's buying you experimental reality yeah that's what like so you are going to go take this thing and put it in front of people and get data back on whether or not your plan has any sort of relationship to reality it's kind of like a request for proposals and the proposal that they're getting back is like really detailed yeah so that they can like yeah i don't and they already own like they have an ownership stake in the proposal that's made if it does like they're like yeah that's a good one that 700 goes already towards like their equity owned so they're already like i don't know it's weird it's like jumping yeah so that puts things a little bit more structured so they come with an idea with like half a million to flesh it out do everything um you say i wanna be in software space the b2c great we'll get at it we come up with a bunch of ideas we pick one blah blah for that half a million one of them becomes really good we flesh it out pass it around it gets a certain valuation certain interest from other vcs and we like there is something here we go back now you guys can execute it there is potential in here they go we can't execute it can you guys execute it wonderful it becomes a venture under in and you guys take the majority the money already spent and it will be the preceded money but then now we need the seed money to actually go build it out yeah it's another round it's an amazing second round yeah you can participate you can be the only investor or we will raise with others um yeah when people are raising precede how much do they usually give away it varies i mean it's all over the place like what makes sense for what you're doing like i mean that you can price it so that you can continue experimenting like if you can if this is a model that's workable then you can just keep working it and so over the long term the deals will like the way i see this is as you're trying to start a new venture you're just trying to collect information you can be wrong in how your pricing works as long as you have the ability to renegotiate that deal so just get out the door like then you just quit working with them if they're not willing to negotiate then they're not a good partner it doesn't make any sense to continue to work with them you hold the keys to the value like go go find somebody else you've already proven that it works and if they're not willing to come to the table based on the value that you've proven then they're not a good partner like why work with them like the the the the money needs to keep flowing for everybody to to be in business together if they're gonna lock up the money and play games then you go somewhere else because you've built a protocol that can work right you make it portable like and here's the kinds of things you're not holding it over their head you just make it easy to work with you then you can go work with anybody right so like you're just proving out the model that this can produce ideas that can move into ventures right like mobility is like a a chief like concern of the the project to me like you don't need them like but when you work together like it you can do things together so in the in the beginning like if they're looking to get into a marriage with you like do you want to be married to them you don't know you haven't [ __ ] slept together even you haven't been together like how can you build an experimental base that like helps you see what where the frictions are if there's a compatibility if there's the possibility of a compatibility right so like you're just testing the waters if there is a long-term connective like there's a good relationship there then you can build in like a deal so that relationship continues but part of that deal is like renegotiating that relationship so that it is reflective of what you're trying to accomplish like it's a continuous negotiation that should be easy though like you should do like something that is very easy for you to do and very easy for the other partner to do um that's all like sort of vague but yeah i don't i mean this is how unless you want to be locked in and like you're getting money from i don't you know that's all dependent on what you want in a relationship i guess i want a not too stupid type of uh agreement done for the first year to experiment it just to get this started until [Music] waiting for the perfect terms to for us to magically come up with one it'll never happen you have to you have to work it to find those terms yeah a one year long contract where it says this is a cost of three drops and these are the terms of in and for execution yeah i mean it's a it like you can pitch it as an experiment like we think that there is a viability in this model yeah what if you reframe it as not just this is the cost for it like for these services but like it's an exchange for it like it's a partnership like it's an invitation to work on something together yeah so it's less transaction and it's more like we're talking about finding out if there's compatibility and work working together yeah i mean the only problem is that with this being a conglomerate and all it's a privately owned company one person makes a decision that person never became a partner in anything this is a space that they've been trying to get in they've never been able to and that's because they don't partner with people try the thing you haven't tried what do you have to lose money you have [ __ ] loads of money it's the same thing you're just saying it different yeah offer them something that they don't do now you can go get [ __ ] from everybody else from me you get partnership from me you get good ideas you get a live player somebody who will push back if you know everything why haven't you figured this one out yet nice it's more of a the guy is uh it's difficult to get on a call with him for an hour quarterly his head of executives and companies haven't seen sometimes don't see him in months we are pushing to meet him he's basically the biggest person in southeast asia so he's the one that would potentially fund this local bangkok product tourism product yeah yeah i mean he's here's the code what passport is the all of this um he's a smart piece um yeah it's crazy um family yeah i don't know trying to come up with a thing that it looks feels structured sounds reasonable and seems like a no-brainer to get started with without too many what if so it needs to be so simplified three drops is this is the cost whatever idea we can execute it but then it doesn't mean we can execute execute it under clients uh current agency relationship because nothing gets done that way we need to have stake in it that's the stake and this is the structure we can give raise money for this or you guys want to invest in if you want to become an owner there are all paths here but this is when it goes to nn you get this much we get we keep this much and then we just go play with this much afterwards and then this much you want you guys want the majority if this we are touching something that you yeah 60 whatever 70 sure not more um yeah i mean that's all the mechanics but you're offering him an ex like an exclusive opportunity yeah for a style of thinking that your organization doesn't do now but the world is moving towards yeah though well no one does it right now in thailand at all yeah is what you're saying we're trying something new out i mean i don't think anybody does this a relationship between they've done it with startup founders not with yeah it's very different um we have expo we have all of these startup studios but there is no there are a few enterprise startup studios that are kind of separate but then the persons running them on a team that are running them um they're just normal background people [Music] maybe down one startup i don't know i mean pitch them something that that like has upside in you know a place that they're not playing right now like if he wants to continuously do like safe bets then you're not for him like there is there is risk in here like but you're willing to bear the risk because you will you want to see if this thing can work in the world and you need a partner in like getting access to resources to be able to do this thing and if he doesn't want it he doesn't want it that's fine [Music] the video conferencing one gonna be a very good one one more idea to present on the same call would get enough attention to perhaps slowly start those conversations yeah i don't know i mean the yeah it's the mentality around what you're doing here too for yourself like you want you want to set up like an experimental lab you're not locking yourself into a long-term deal just like move it closer to the present like what are what are the minimum things that need to be expressed so that you can go play like and find other people to play with like and if it doesn't work that's fine you learned a bunch of information like you're setting it up so that like you have a better understanding of what reality is asking for right and then you can that is part of what your offering is we are going to go put ourselves out there and try a bunch of stuff and then we'll give you a research report on how that works and part of that research report might be product but it also might be this is why this [ __ ] is not going to work right now this is what's missing this is where there are blockages but you and you can know that because you're gonna go try to do it or whatever so i mean there's there is something to that that if they're not doing this now like you are a rapid deployment there's all these like sort of you know i i again i'm not on the ground so it's hard to to pitch it specifically but i don't know you're bringing a different energetic quality to the work that maybe is not being expressed right now that's valuable cool well see what happens yep and we started this conversation with you taking a break it's really fun to say no to um i mean it's too fun to say no to these things [Music] and i was thinking the other day i'm so far away from being every time i think am i getting burned out i'm like no this is really really fun they just um yeah i'm actually just one some kind of a progress indicator that something is moving a little bit faster than usual the way i look at this is are you thinking about this more clearly like is it more in alignment with what you want to be doing in the world that's progress like can you so is it sustainable is it something that that you want are you having fun is it something that's not burning you out and then can you balance that against being relaxed and meditated like can those things coexist because then you're you're starting to to find like a rhythm to the thing that is you can show up and do it right that doesn't mean it won't be stressful it doesn't mean it won't be hard but it is something that that like is an expression of what you're trying to accomplish like rather than because objective measure doesn't work for these things like i've made x amount of dollars that's easy to do like go find places where you can find the money it doesn't you know like the that is part of the signaling but there needs to be a qualitative measure to like how well you're operating how fun it is like how generated it is for the people around you like if that's not happening then it's not worth doing it's just [ __ ] so i don't know that's how i've been thinking about it face off make sense yeah it's a hard one to to unlearn from like the sort of objective measure like the tangible things like oh look i got this and i did that and here's my portfolio like moving from portfolio mindset to whatever the [ __ ] else this is it's more experiential yeah there's a the qualitative thing you pointed to it's the ex like what it feels like yeah and is do you want to do that and what a choice now you didn't have a choice before sort of thing like i don't know when you're starting like with work stuff yeah you need to make money you want to make money you want to figure out like what your thing is and now it's less about what you have to do it's what you want to do yeah you get to choose what you get to do yeah yeah the that's usually a sign that like if you've got a lot of uh things that you have to do in your life it's not a good life but if there's a lot of things that you get to do in your life it's a decent life then it's a problem of like abundance of like overflow you're like geez i can do all this stuff but how do i choose what is it what is what is important what is what do i want to grow so that's the part you know that i'm very interested in um team i mean it seems slowly to feel like as soon as they find the right person for something then whatever how ridiculous that idea is it can actually go and yeah be a thing yeah um so yeah yeah a lot of that is like finding people who are feeling into the same thing they've just come at it from a different direction yeah and so you're helping them express something that they couldn't without the partnership like because you you all have a piece of it you all have a little piece of it and when you come together the thing opens up you're like that's what the [ __ ] that's what i was missing like and then it can start moving it can start growing um so a big part of the work is figuring out how to find the people who are who hold the missing pieces or invite them to come play because they want to they want to express this thing it's screaming at them in their heads or you know just poking them or prodding them [Music] yeah we're playing with similar thing like it you know we're trying to find collaborators here like who are feeling into the same kind of thing so how do you present it to the world and then offer them an on-ramp to come play and then their structure and like a place and coordination and a methodology a vision that they can help build like it's not done it's a story that they can write together this one is a bit it's more ambient it's more like it builds itself or it doesn't exist um yeah we'll probably have some things that are like more tangible in that sense business oriented but yeah i don't know yet i was watching the latest video with phil no it was all love you guys um and everybody happy just discussing the the details of things and um i was just paying attention to almost everybody's airtime is around the same so everybody's contributing everybody is active um it's a very good dynamic between everybody it's really difficult to get yeah it's the space it's like we are holding the space together and like we we care about the space and so you know there's a way to go about doing that and then yeah i don't know we just we respect each other's time or each other i don't there's some there's a bunch of attributes in there i guess that make that possible um yeah we trust each other is what it is well everyone's got a piece of the yeah kind of thing we can't know what we're doing unless we all yep share it's impossible otherwise if somebody comes in with like a master plan it never survives it doesn't make any sense like yeah it's about providing the right scaffolding like do as much as you can do so that you can get feedback from everybody else it's invitational like this is the the style of the thing is over and over again i just beat into my head like how can i like offer something that is like the start of a conversation it gets the thing going so that we can find out what actually wants to be said that's easy to do i can show up and say a bunch of crap and then be wrong and then people are like i think it's like this i'm like okay now we know i learned that from her yeah there are different roles in that and then people like to i mean if there's experts around or people for for whom they thought a lot about something if you give them a nugget and they've like fleshed out some of that but it's coming from a perspective they haven't thought about they get to increase their understanding of the world and for people are curious it's the best thing yeah ever you're just like oh i did not know that and then now i know this and that opens up all this other [ __ ] and then you can't wait to come and do it again because you're you're you have all of this extra fluidity and movement and possibility yeah it's nice yeah youtube puts the live videos in like a different place really yeah it's annoying like not in the feed we did a thing yesterday um live stream i saw you guys at the live stream yeah we're going to start doing more of those oh it's there it's right there i have to rename it though yeah yeah we did a chat yesterday it's our first uh what we're calling understanding club where we just get together with people and we talk about a thing we barely understand together and try to figure it out and so um in this case we brought in a dude named phil who uh works at a he works at like a decentralized exchange and has an understanding of the like financial landscape of of crypto and so we were able to sort of ask him why things are working and he can tell us technically he's also an engineer like why this is working this way what the formulas are for certain things like what the dynamics are and then we can start talking about what are the implications of this thing in the world like what does it mean why is it like this what is it in relationship to this other thing um it's a it's like exploring a space together it's nice yeah it's fun it's the same thing you were talking about he gets to come think about things in a different way and like he hadn't thought a lot about blockchain media which we've thought a lot about so he was like oh wow he's like okay so maybe we could keep talking and like i want to know what you know because i just shared what i know yeah so it's kind of nice because it's like you want to keep doing it just keeping perspectives moving like and if you're stuck in something it's possible that you don't have a perspective that you need and somebody else has it but you don't know what that perspective is so producing environments where serendipity is possible to it just inches you forward towards knowing what you need to know to to work the problem so i don't know it's a serendipity generator in that sense it's also fun to hang out and learn things together like it's a lot easier than like going and researching it by yourself and then you know it's living in that sense do analysis club too the next door neighbor is totally gut gutting the house like i'm hearing all this noise so i go and look and they're literally ripping [ __ ] out and throwing it out the window like what is happening i was like i haven't looked to see what they're doing over there in the backyard there's piles and piles of stuff out there yeah they're just throwing it out but we know yeah it's been every day for like the whole time we've been here they start usually at like 9am i haven't really noticed though like it hasn't been like annoying and then now it's kind of annoying because it's right there it's because you haven't slept you notice all the sounds a lot of things yeah talking is relaxing though i'm starting to calm down more good man keep talking forever i'm ready to eat though that's where i'm at why are you tired um you didn't sleep well two nights ago mostly i don't know i've been pushing into a lot of new territory it's like mentally taxing yeah like i'm holding a lot of new types of information um but i don't know how to work with them yet so like it's it's like learning a new physical thing you're not elegant with it yet you don't know how it works and so there's like a you use a lot of energy in life like yesterday talking to phil we like unpacked i had like a a cursory understanding of like how the finance works on a lot of this and then he he is like he works in it every day so he's like it's like this and this is how that works and here's how this thing goes and i'm just like i'm keeping up but like i'm not in the shape that he is yeah so like it was exhausting it gets it you know it's tiring um and then we went on that hike and then we talked to j it was a lot yesterday um yeah we go sometimes for walks and kind of same things happen disagreements and then especially we pick the worst time it makes sense before breakfast let's just go for a walk sure and we do it on like [ __ ] like we start talking about work yeah empty stomach just woke up all right no more talking about work when we're on a walk we're just gonna tell stories things kind of get until you've eaten until you've eaten and then you can talk about work yeah yeah exactly not there is time for everything and that was the worst time yeah so we do like a version um yeah there are certain times where i'm like i can't do this right now he's willing to do it whenever and i'm just like shut it down like i can't do the work thing right now but we'll do basically workouts like go hiking and it's like you're like hiking up like a hill or like you're doing something and it's you know it's exercise and then you can get into the work stuff and it's nice because it feels less like personal somehow yeah there's also a meta we have a meta like commentary going on like this is what i think i'm frustrated right now and uh i don't understand what you're saying and so this is how i'm hearing what you're saying is that what you're saying and then the other person has to translate because we're because we're very different people we come from very different places and we think that we're speaking the same language but we're not so like you have to slow it down and talk about where you're coming from a lot rather than like because i'll get frustrated because i'm like this is very obvious and it but it's not it's obvious to me yeah like and you know so then it's it's like how do we translate the obviousness into something shared so that we can work from the same but that's it's an emotional process because like you can't find the thing and then you know like it's and then you're hiking up a hill and you're sweating and it's it's a good place to do this though because you're like you're moving you can move through the i don't know yeah the movement is good yeah i got into this with within one day not one many days um it could be a designer thing too um yeah we just communicate very differently so whenever i talk to people that i work with um i don't need to be very specific with things they get it yeah talking about ideas it kind of flows a bit easier because if we know what we are talking about we don't need to be specific and say this thing right there over there yeah but here if i use the same language i'm like oh my god we don't connect at all like this is how we are too i'm like i don't know what you're saying right now he's like how and i'm like why the [ __ ] would i know what that is and he's just like oh and then there's the whole like yeah yeah it's uh i think it's uh it's a designer thing too but in i don't know she says she's a designer there's a different kind of different kind of they're totally different they're different schools of design yep and so like the translation so a lot of what i end up doing is like asking kristen to explain or vice versa like asking questions over and over again to try to figure out how she's seeing it like what is the mental model because there's value in there there is something to the way that she is seeing things that i don't understand and that if i do i can unders i can translate it then like oh i see it in this way and then you see it in this way here is a way that we can see it together and then when that happens we've created something new we've created a new way of seeing and that is a byproduct of our thinking together that doesn't exist in the world right so it is it is something that is that we have built together we have born together right and that is a real labor of love though it is tough like repeat yourself over and over again i'm like how many times do i have to explain this to you and you're like just explain it again and i'm like oh my god just explain it again explain it again and try a different way of explaining it because one of those ways the pattern will stick he never gets tired either he'll just do this forever and i'm just like i can't do it anymore because he's like battle the love of understanding will push me into anything i want to know what reality is like from everybody's perspective wow that's what drives them it's an aspiration everybody's perspective i mean realize for me just i just want to know what what's the [Music] what's that thing in between what i'm explaining to you're getting yeah like there is gap here like what is this the same thing with words is it context is it experience like what are we looking at and then we keep saying oh my god we're not mentally intellectually connected it's very tiresome to talk about basic concepts that we would it would take me five minutes to talk with one of my designers it would take a day and i would like i need a one week vacation after this um and i'm running like probably 10 12 projects in parallel simultaneously but this is very tiring and i'm like if there is an emotional leaking nothing [ __ ] gets done during the day let's just deal with this until we at the end of it yeah we make peace we move forward if we don't then this emotional leakage and it takes all of that energy throughout the day nothing gets solved yeah and then the day has gone and i [ __ ] quite a waste of time um yeah that one's tough it doesn't feel good too yeah the reality thing makes a lot of sense like i have a friend right now who's having a an argument a big one with her husband and we haven't talked like she's mad at him he's reached out to me because he's kind of worried about her and like i don't really know what's going on she won't really talk to me so i'm like i don't know and what i basically told him was she's experiencing some reality right now that makes sense to her like if i can talk to her i just want to try to learn what that is like and join her there and see what it's like there because he doesn't understand it and i don't think she understands his reality and there i just have no idea what's going on but i think this is what happens like it's normal for people to have their own reality like they have their own perspective it's the working with people to figure out how you bridge it um and everybody's different and depending on how different the realities are like this is where yeah like some people i don't know like i guess this is like where you bring in like therapy like to do co like relating stuff like because if you're so far apart you need somebody to translate for you or if something is going on where like it's triggering you and like reminding you of something else that is not really in the room it's like your past experience and then you bring that into the room and the other person's like how is that related to this because it's not how you related to anything yeah well not to them but it is to you and then it's like a whole like and that makes things even more confusing but yeah it's really like you bring your own reality based on your past experience and then yeah you have to unpack all of that with the pr like so it takes a lot of work like a lot of work and you have to be patient and then it compounds though the more you do this the better you get at it and the more that you can communicate which means that you can get the complex things that have been like unable to be expressed so yeah it's like each one of these things is just another each one of these conversations or frictions or or whatever it is is just building vocabulary building trust building you know and some of these some of those like frictions are they're not solvable in a day in an hour no and so then the skill for me that i had to learn was set it down it's fine this is not the state of the world it's just where we're at with this particular discussion and we can pick it up again when we're calm and then talk about it it's fine it may still be emotional we still may need to work something out but like it doesn't it can be compartmentalized it can be set aside for a little bit like depending on what it is obviously like if there's something critical to the relationship or whatever then maybe you need to work it out but not all of them are critical yeah the biggest thing in people that i appreciate how long they hold on to a certain emotion or reaction it just nuts to me somebody can hold on to anger or whatever sadness whatever for more than a couple of minutes seriously yeah this is a permanent thing yes somebody is gone now i get it but we are talking about it something was said or something just happened or something made you upset and then you hold on to another emotion one or five minutes unreasonable absolutely reasonable there is like a thing there i agree like not necessarily that's unreasonable but what is why are you holding on to you are holding on to it and it's not meant to be held onto you're like studying the pattern of what the feeling is and then it's giving you something and then you're just you're looping it so you're it's like artificially reproducing like the like imprint of this thing why why what are you what is going on like it's beyond the moment in which that thing like came to pass like the emotion is like giving you information about what's going on but yeah if you become identified with it then you get into a reality where that thing has like a life of its own and then what what's happening there i think just all emotions are stupidity all the ugly ones seriously because it's just a lack of understanding anytime you have a bad reaction to something it's just you not understanding that if somebody is not getting something or understanding something i had this problem with my previous manager oh my god we could turn into get into stupidest conflicts over stupidest thing and the guy would turn red and then we would we would have this kind of physical pain and physical because we like this during the whole conversation i'm like this is stupid yeah yeah it's it's not smart like we're not thinking about what's going on we're letting the emotions drive and they don't they're not smart on their own they're just passing through they're giving you information about something and that something could be like this is where like yeah i don't know the biggest thing seems to be something happened in your like life previously where this emotion came up and it was like a similar like experience and then you're bringing it back and then you have to look at it like is this the same experience like do i need to like is that make sense here do we like keep playing that thing over like is this a valid like am i angry or is is anger showing up well and why is anger showing up how is this different from whatever you guys do can i learn with it like how do i bring it to bed with just being able to detach like am i angry am i am i anger incarnate can i only act through anger or is anger appearing because of something in circumstances like is it is it me is it us is it the world like yeah you are making me feel angry yeah you're making oh that they go i've heard that so many times i'm like that's so unreasonable because you go but you make me do it i'm like like somebody kill somebody and they go they made me do it well there you go you need to go in jail for this you control your your own emotions you're responsible for your emotions always i mean this is for you to own and open up to it so the responsibility part yes control not so much there's a different relationship to the thing like i think that there is a way to i agree with you but yeah you can't control what comes up but you can have a relationship to what you do with that especially how you understand it i feel anger and i'm going to take it out on you and like attack you blame you yeah well that's not cool you get a choice there for what to do with it but it's fine when it happens too it's an emotional reaction you cap it it will come out there any other way even if you already know you should express boom all right sorry about that yeah yeah immediately you call it off yeah because nobody is smarter than their emotions they're always gonna come out and when they come out great but then we have a basic understanding of who we are yeah we act on those terms that's not aligned with the personality great you know that was one of those bursts that was needed yeah it's like a bubbling up yeah i mean that's complete and then it's gone be back at talking intellectually like to civilized people um instead of unless you hit the trip wire that happened huh unless you hit the trip wire so there's certain things where it's the trigger stuff where something like it's you're holding on to something in the past and it like maybe you have like some trauma around it or ptsd and like you sort of lose a sense of what's happening in the moment now in reality and you start bringing the stuff from the past that you are associating with this thing and then the person in the room that you're with is like what is going on and it has nothing to do like you're you're working through something i mean we deal with this and then if you can be there with that person but you both have to know like that i don't know like when i'm doing this that's something that is a thing that happened like i'm being unreasonable right now but can you help me like get at it or because you can tease that out i don't like talking about it though so like but i'll come sit in the room and then i just won't really say anything and he's like trying to coax it out of me like i don't want to talk i don't want to talk but i do because i'm there so there's this like weird like push and pull yeah these are part of the things that like when you're younger you don't like you don't understand like you were saying you're stupid as a kid it's just part of it and maybe you've you've experienced something that you're not mature enough to deal with yet and you just create a method of handling it because you got to do something yeah and like one of those methods can be this feeling is so awful that i'm and when i express it to people they don't like it so you just lock it down you don't talk about it because people don't know how to relate to it or you're afraid that you're going to spill it out or it's going to infect you know all of these mentalities when you're older that younger version of of the response is it's it is unreasonable it's it's not it is not it hasn't grown it's not mature it's you know it's contracted it's smaller and so part of the the work of growing up is like bringing this stuff to the surface ideally with people who can hold it for you and being like okay if we had a chance to do this again how would we think about this right and then you get an opportunity to think about it differently which means the next time it comes up you have a new tool you have a new like oh i don't i can go talk i can i can express it i can journal i can you know i can scream about it and the world won't end it's fine and then i can think about it right like there's a there's a reflective possibility i guess which is a meta skill that helps you be wiser yeah deadpool's um yeah and then you just do that over and over again forever forever with more and more deep-seated stuff with more and more people yeah yeah i mean you also have to have people in your life who can trigger this stuff so you can work with it that's a big part of the people that we choose but it's hard because sometimes the people who trigger it aren't the people who you can work through the thing with nope you gotta find somebody else that's hard on there where you're like oh can we just talk about it they can't talk about it's always the people you're closest to like a good friend or your mom or something like this and you're just like oh my god like we have zero patience for like we have patients with strangers like yeah yeah well you've been doing this for your whole life so you're just like can we stop [ __ ] yeah well you're just in you're in territory that you've gone over over and over and over again with the same tools and like you've worn a group yeah and like the tools don't work but the pattern of response is there and so part of the tooling that you need in those cases is patience or like at least creativity or somebody who can work with you in a different like environment so that you can come back and move forward in your relationship with other people so yeah i don't know it's this whole thing kind of masking things uh none of the things that pop up are beautiful all of the emotions come from an ugly place all of the bad ones seriously and most of them people are not encouraged enough to courageous enough whatever the word is to talk about them because it's such an ugly thing but if you can do it work through it it will be gone most things can be easily gone if you not gone now transformed into something you can see it differently it's a change in perspective on the thing like it no longer is ugly it's just a thing that exists like you're like okay it's like that mask that thing is dark but it has a beauty to it and it has a relevance it has it has something to say about the world like the the problem is i think a lot of times people take the darkness and they think it's it's evil or wrong or bad but it is reality it is part of reality and you cannot have wholeness unless you take it all and understand it you don't have to agree with it you don't have to promote it but you you do need to understand it it is part of being so like ostracizing it cramming it away pushing it back just gives it potency and it can't express so like having controlled ways in environments where it can be handled and talked to and worked with like lets the dark things express the like beauty that they have innately so i don't know that's why why we called it buzzard it eats death and turns it into life oh yeah he's like what yeah that one took me a long time to square because like okay with the negative emotions understanding what purpose what what they're expressing like that you know these dark things are workable they are understandable they are there is a stance that you can have in relationship to them and they are not um yeah i don't know i wonder not understandable not it's very difficult to understand some people's realities because it's just their realities and realities are connected to so many realistic and unrealistic things or whatever they connect things in their mind it's very difficult to find how they connect the dots in their mind what is the truth for them i mean like that's the real that's the [Music] yeah but if they don't like so this is where having some kind like communication and like some kind of way of connecting with others if people aren't willing to do that work then yeah they're sort of on an island but you like it takes two to tango and it gets a two-way street you can't expect that they're gonna do all the work and it's like that they need to come out from their reality into yours you gotta meet halfway like that kind of thing when you've when you've worked with some of this stuff you end up having more room to hold some of that for them for a little bit you don't need to you can though like there's the possibility that you can trade off doing it for each other when it makes sense yeah like there is a there is the more of the the material of your shadow that you have processed and the more that you understand like your relationship to that a meta understanding appears and then there is a compassion for other people who are doing that same thing we're all doing it right and that provides a patience so that when people are like working through their thing you're like yeah i get it and you can listen to the character of what they're doing not the content the content is sometimes important but not always usually it's there's a thrashing formative yeah it's information but there is information below there's information in the structure in the design system of the person right like how did that design system develop like is it patched together is it worked on is it balanced is it does it come from health does it come from fear does it come from abundance you know all of these kinds of things you can kind of feel into or you know there's a meta practice of just listening to what they're doing i'm like okay and then the response can come through maybe they need to be pushed maybe they need to to they just need to have it cascade off of you i don't know um