The Key To Influencer Marketing: Think Like A Venture Capitalist transcript

When Taylor Rath took over as the general manager of jewelry brand Bryan Anthony's in the last year, she brought with her a list, her email list of influencer contacts that was 5,000 people strong. Uh she developed that list over many years working with another jewelry brand before this. When Taylor talks about influencer relationships and leveraging influencers in brands, especially in spaces like jewelry and apparel biz like that, she knows what she's talking about.

I invited her on the show because I've been working with Taylor for a little while now, and I have heard her talk influencers, and you can just hear the expertise pouring out of her. You know what good intelligent thinking sounds like when you hear it from somebody like this, and that is what Taylor brings because uh she has just spent a whole bunch of time building brands with influencer marketing as a core part of it.

She's doing that now from the ground up with a brand that had no real influencer relationships going for it, uh and then she just took over, and now that's what I want to talk to you about today. For brands who are looking to build their influencer program or looking to strengthen an already existing one, Taylor's going to tell you what she knows after all like a decade plus of working with influencers in these spaces, uh what to do, what not to do.

Should you spray and pray and just try to make as many contacts as possible? Should you do what she does and go and take a bunch of them to dinner and really treat them like friends [music] and and build great relationships? Should you go somewhere in the middle? Should you do both? Let's talk about it all with Taylor Rath from Bryan Anthony's talking to influencers right now. >> [music] >> Okay, so Taylor, you brought a list of 5,000 influencers to your new job?

Yeah, I did. I mean, they did not all respond to me when I emailed them, but I have >> [laughter] >> How many of them did respond to you? Or like I mean, is there some way you want to quantify like how active is that list of 5,000? Yeah, so like that list was like I was just keeping it going forever because I was like one day, you know, maybe I'll maybe I will move on to a different job or whatever. Like meet somebody one time, and a lot of those are were not just to clarify, those were not all revenue producing influencers.

But those were people that I spoke to over the course of being at the same company for like 9 years, and I think I probably am in like everyday conversations maybe with like a hundred of them. So like a very small amount. But that's I mean, still and then of those 5,000, there's probably like at least like 500 revenue producing ones. So I mean, if you look at it, it's a numbers game, but um I just try to make sure I always have contact information cuz sometimes when you ignore you, and I'm like a month or two later, be like, "Oh, sorry, you know, I didn't I was busy." Or I stopped influencing, you know, I'm back, whatever.

There's there's a million reasons. Uh it I You think that's normal for influencer where there's like a big pile of influencers that you build relationships with probably over a bunch of years, some of them you know, deeper than others, some of them respond more than others, and then that large list gets down to uh a smaller group that have outsized impact? I think so. Like I have always been of the belief, and I I know that a lot of my friends who are influencers will watch this.

Um but uh I So I've got to be very careful, and but you're my You're my friends for a reason. So I believe that like it is a numbers game. There's a part of working with influencers I think that like hits the dopamine part of my brain that would be like gambling. Or like you know, like getting as many boots on the ground and then like watching where people succeed or um The fascinating thing My favorite part about doing this is like having an influencer that posts for you for like 6 months and does nothing, and then randomly takes off.

It's In that way, it's from working with you and talking about ads, it's actually quite similar that like random things can just pop off overnight, and then that person can be responsible for like 80% of your revenue for a couple months and then die off. Yep. I I um I I think this is right. And when you hear all the smart influencer people talk about uh talk about this, I notice this theme coming up a lot, which is like there it is I always think it's like it's like a venture um venture investing sort of shape of of uh relationships or whatever, right?

Where it's like a small number of these people uh produce an outsized impact, and therefore uh in fact, they produce like a massively outsized impact, and then it's like 80% of the value is coming from a few people or whatever. And uh and therefore, there becomes an incentive to cultivate a large a large list of people because ultimately like the average return on each of these relationships ends up being uh ends up being really good uh and and worth the money even if it's actually really disproportionately impacted by a few people.

And I think getting that straight is is super important for this type of influencer marketing where it's like getting people to post, getting their content in the ad account, and all that stuff. There's some other ways to think about this for other kinds of relationships. And just as a little preview for people like I'm going to have uh somebody else that you and I talked to recently, which is uh Lauren Bonfig from uh from Little Words Project, another client I've been working with recently, where they're doing some like influencer deals that are actually co-branded product and kind of deeper stuff.

And I I actually want to talk to you about that, too, cuz I know you're you're going that route as well. But uh those That's kind of a different thing, I think, um in terms of in terms of those kinds of influencer relationships where there's a really, really deep interaction. It's maybe a different kind of tier of influencer and some of that. But for the kind of stuff you're talking about where it's people posting, getting affiliate commissions, that kind of stuff, it seems to me that in most cases, it has this same principle, which is like a few people have a massively outsized impact on the business.

So you feel like you've seen that over the long term? Yeah, and I actually think those two things are like directly correlated. So um the way that I have always done this is like free product seeding, commission, no payment. That's I'm very passionate about that at the beginning. And then that turns into >> Why? Why are you passionate about that? Because So again, 10 years ago, like people were just making up numbers, right?

Like for the rates, people being influencers. And brands didn't know if this was good or bad or whatever. And um I think that I would pay somebody the rates that they're asking for if I explain to them from a business how much I need to make, and if their rates fit into that Yeah. small, you know, um fit into that math equation. So at the beginning, I think the the way to find out who you should do a custom collection with, which in in my experience, 70% of the sales that you're going to do with influencer marketing are from that, of the custom collection that are attached to the influencers.

So like >> more important way way way more important than everyday seeding. Um So for example, right now starting at Bryan Anthony's kind of what I'm doing, and what we've been as we've been like working through our forecast, Andrew, like sending out a bunch of product to everybody initially. And like that is like step one, but that is only like a one-time thing I would recommend for brands to do because from all of that product, a lot of product, you'll be able to see people who are worthy of a collection and then run with that, and then those will typically become after a collection feed like the inner funnel of like always-on campaigns.

Um So kind of feeds into itself. It's I'm constantly trying to find the next collection. Yeah, that'd make sense. Yeah, when I say collection, I mean influencer-designed with a brand collection. 70% is a lot. That has to be also because you're a jewelry, right? Like like it just like in this category, it feels like it feels like it really lends to that kind of thing that kind of thing in particular. But I don't know, have you seen that in other categories?

Oh, because I have a lot of friends in the industry um from going to conferences that, you know, all the influencers are at, who work at in makeup, um in even um like Yeah. uh like clothes, um and and even like weird things like um Yeti, for example. Like Yeti, it does like a lot of that. Um I think Yeti also does most of their influencer marketing with custom collections cuz there was uh a couple examples when I talked to my friend there where they were like, "Oh, we did a Mountains Yeti cup." Yeah. compared to just everyday influencer linking.

Um So yeah, no, I think that those two things are really, really important, and I would advise that anyone doing influencer marketing should be doing custom collections, or you're leaving like That's That's everything. That's literally the whole the whole thing. Don't even waste your time if you're not going to do it. Huh. Huh. Um okay, that's a strong statement. Is Okay, so I cut you off a little bit earlier cuz I was curious about why why you were so intent on not paying in the initial and doing and doing seeding. >> to to repeat it back, part of what you're saying, it sounds like, is you don't know how much value there is going to be as all of these people post.

Yeah. And like and like people are kind of making up numbers, and you don't want to get into all these crazy negotiations with people where they don't have any idea what they're really worth, and they're overcharging and all that stuff. There's that. But secondly, it sounds like you also get a better sense of like who's really actually interested in it and who likes it and and just so it creates a little more authenticity in the relationships.

Is that right? Definitely. And like I wouldn't say that just to like correct myself a little bit with what I said, I wouldn't say that I would I would not pay up front, but I would only pay up front like meaning day one, we don't know each other, you're an influencer, I'm a brand, if the influencer can back up what they're proposing to you with analytics. For example, one of my favorite um collections I ever did was with an influencer called Daryl Ann Denner, who ended up being huge.

She's she's a huge name in the industry. She now owns her own e-commerce brand. She approached me because I took her out for dinner, uh her and her husband, and she called me during the height of COVID. I was in lockdown and said, "I think we could do a collection." Before that, I had never paid her. And I was not even doing commission with her. So she knew that like she could do it, and she approached me, and she had analytics to back it up.

And then that was like one of the largest collections I've ever done to date. But um >> Yeah, yeah. typically typically um you know, that's not the case because you have to prove that it works. So for example, right now with Bryan Anthony's, different influencers are working than at my previous job. And so I'm seeing a new type of influencer and already like during the seeding I've done, I have three collections that I'm locking down right now for Q3.

Ah, amazing. Um that's I yeah, it's funny we haven't talked about that yet. I didn't know that was coming. That's awesome. Um And and so, are you on those collections, are you actually working with the influencer to say like, "Hey, here's what I'm thinking. The product could be like this. Like here's the design idea." Like how much are they actually speaking into that process with you? Yeah, so it's actually great timing this is happening today cuz yesterday I just got off a call with I won't say who it is or what it is, but we're doing six products.

So, the collection it's um it's two influencers that are best friends. And so, they're each doing three products. And so, basically the the first step of that is I always just try to do a mood board. So, like it's probably the most creative part of my job cuz everything else that I do with influencers is very like ROI based. Um but when you're doing the collections, it's more of like I become more of like the Don Draper in my mind, you know, pitching to the influencer and uh trying to like match whatever they're going for.

So, this this these girls are leaning into the story aspect of Brian Anthony's. So, we're doing a lot of um stuff about like summers in the cottage cuz it's going to launch in the summer. So, like what it means to like go to a place over and over again that feels like home and you can kind of I know that cuz you know the brand picture like what that car is going to look like. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um and I'm very passionate whenever I do this to just give as much creative freedom to the influencer as possible.

Um I find that that's the only way it can ever be successful. If you try to keep them within your own brand guidelines too much, it can be non-authentic to their audience, which is the ones purchasing. Mhm. Um I uh I first of all, I don't think Don Draper can be Canadian. So, I don't think I don't think you can be Don Draper. He's just too American. No. No. Very true. He he >> [laughter] >> but Um but no. But I I am I I really like it.

So, okay. What you're describing is everything about the way you talk about influencers you've got these stories like of you are really working towards building a deeper collection. You are seeding, you're getting authentic relationships. And then you just told the story I took Daryl-Ann Denner out to dinner with her husband. You told me uh you told me last week I think it was you took a group of like 12 or 13 influencers to dinner in Nashville uh when you were there for a different conference.

Like you you are doing all of these things that are this real depth of relationship. I like I mean I guess maybe another question about that before I ask my real question. How much are you talking to these people each day? Like I just like sending DMs, texting, emailing, like I would describe this whole thing that I have done like with influencers and and that part of it um almost as a sales role. And I say that like not to be I it's an authentic relationship. >> But uh like I don't look at it as like, you know, a sales role, but it it it's a friendship business layer on top of it.

And how I I'm lucky enough to have been given leadership over the the whole my whole career that was like do what you think is right. And like by leaning into that, which is heavily inspired by um the MLM world, which is kind of a weird thing to say. But like this world where >> where like um going in and having socials, then afterward people get like all riled up or, you know, even just just it's crazy because everything that's happened in my career that was a uh takeoff moment, I can um loop back to an influencer in-person event.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so there's there's this real depth. I mean actually to go back to my question, how much specifically are you able to quantify it? Like how often are you texting these people? Like what's How much time are you spend How much time are you spending on this per day? Like I would say that like the part of it that is maybe not the answer that most people are going to like is that like a lot of my personal life.

So, like I have them on Instagram personally. I have their personal phone number. I watch when their son's birthday is and send them a gift because it's their son's birthday. So, that stuff is something that like it's just on in the background. Um and as far as like business relationship like back and forth, that conversation is left just to business. But the friend level or the like just human level, um sending people flowers when something bad happens and um that is something that I I try to spend a lot of time doing, which is probably the most time-consuming part of it.

But it's not like I'm doing it I am doing it in a in somewhat a level of like this person is my friend in my mind. You're probably still sleeping on the opportunity for your e-commerce business in the Philippines. [music] I know that because I talk to e-commerce founders all the time and I watch them go through hiring processes and go through searches and go through team builds where they don't think somewhere in that process at the very least I should go collect some resumes from the Philippines and see if there are incredible people that I can add to my team at a fraction of the cost of finding those people in the US.

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I think the through-line on a lot of influencer conversations I've been having recently is that there is a level of there are multiple approaches that work so far as I can tell. But there's a level [clears throat] of engagement and depth of sort of how you approach it that has to be there. For you it I hear you talk about it and it's this level of like very deep personal um touch and and like real relationships with people.

And I I've never heard you once talk about an influencer in a way where it sounded exploitative to me. Like you talk about them like they're people and friends. And there is a sales relationship. Right. Yeah, there's a sales component to it and everybody understands that's part of the relationship. But I don't I don't I don't hear you Yeah, I don't know. That feels like you actually you Now don't you send flowers because you actually care.

You know, it's like it's like it's like there's there's a level that there's something I really like about that. And then and then there's other people I see do this sort of like extreme high volume affiliate builder, negotiate from day one, build everything off a CPM model, you know, um that kind of approach to influencer where it's like a you know, send out a million DMs all at once, maybe use AI to mass craft them or whatever, you know.

Um and now I think that's going to be harder and harder all the time because those tools are now getting so easily so widely accessible that it's going to just like it's just going to make it impossible for influencers to sort through all that stuff. So, I if I was going to be if I was going to be long on a strategy, it would be yours, which is like no don't do that. Like build relationships over time, really get to know people.

It's going to be harder to cut through noise and all that stuff because the tools are getting too good. But um but uh either way what I hear is like a a level of investment in it that is not easy. You know, it's not quick and it's not fast. It's not easy. Like even the people who are doing this sort of like you know, pay off a CPM or build mass affiliate deals or whatever it is, they have somebody dedicated on their team to doing this all the time with deep strategy and deep thinking.

And it's like you know, they're they're working really, really hard at it. I know um I I know some people who know the people at Base Body Care or I think it's called Body Care. Anyway, massive TikTok shop brand. Um whatever. And I just know like they have a huge outfit of people like really working hard at this. So, it's not that everybody I think has to do exactly what you're doing. Like I said, I would probably think that your strategy is only going to make more sense in the future the world of AI.

But um but there is in every case that I see people do this well, they're investing real time and money and and and effort in in into it. Uh you know, uh yeah. For sure. And like I it's not to say that I didn't do all those things. Like I remember like way back in the day like I like just started working in e-commerce and with influencers. I was like blasting a copy and paste message in Instagram and like we got our Instagram deactivated because it was like reported as spam, right?

And so, you kind of like and this goes back to kind of what I believe all of influencer marketing should be is that like there is that like seating sending it out mass with without a personal message but then like the minute that there's a share there needs to be something personal. So for example like even though yes I'm the general manager of a business I have a VA talking to some of the influencers. I have like a very specific list of like if like once it gets to this point you hand the relationship off to me.

You mark it for me to read. Um cuz I think that you need both and obviously like if somebody is doing both at a at scale my cat decided to join the podcast I should have uh predicted that but um uh yeah if you're if you're doing it at scale you need both levers in the personal relationship lever and then you need to continue to find new people because influencers are never going to keep your business running forever.

There's always going to be a new influencer. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah that makes sense. Um okay tell me more about um about how you're thinking about sort of uh what kinds of deals you are building once you move towards payment? So like uh somebody posts you know they're you're kind of saying it goes just just in exchange for free product whatever it is. How do you evaluate whether or not something something works? Is it subjective?

Is it I like the content and it works or is it uh like just purely about how much money it drove? Like what how are you how are you thinking about that? Um so for me I have a very specific so somebody posts um and it produces revenue. To me that is like the first moment where I'm really paying attention. There's lots of people posting a lot great for content but it's kind of two funnels as well in my mind. There's like influencers that you use for UGC content and there's influencers that you use for revenue and they do have some overlap but you need to treat them differently.

So for me the minute that somebody like starts producing revenue it sounds wrong but I increase their commission. So at that moment they're doing it just for product um or a low commission and then I increase. And so I have certain thresholds where like once you get an influencer who is producing you know us like I it's different for everybody but like say that one influencer is producing 50% of my influencer um sales.

I would >> Yeah. bring that commission like all the way up. Like I've done all the way up to 30% before. Um by doing that you don't actually have to pay for content and then it just is always producing. Um so I I usually start commission at 15 and then go would go all the way up to to 30 and especially when I'm doing a collection I like a profit share model as well with people who are typically confident in themselves and their their ability to sell.

They're going to choose the that model over a flat rate. Um any any any time. That's interesting. So two sides of the first thing is why raise the commission after somebody posts and generates value? What what why go that route? Why not start with a really high commission Yeah. and uh see if you can attract more people by giving them more money up front. To me it goes back into the relationship. So by me giving them commission it is almost like me being like hey friend like I see what you're doing and I see the work that you're doing and I want us to win together.

So that's how I've always thought of it. I'm not saying the other way the other way is wrong but that's how I've done it to keep the long-term relationships. So so you're saying the the increase is is a way to basically show good faith and build relationship once somebody posts and see cuz they are going to feel that and experience it as uh well this person actually is not just trying to nickel and dime me or whatever.

Exactly and a lot of these influencers I found um will burn out over time. They're just exhaust their audience or maybe they'll they won't maybe they change. It's kind of one of the other. You either have like a short couple years one year of like you know your audience is hyper hyper engaged. You don't have to have a lot of followers. You just have a hyper engaged audience. Um so to try to capture that when it's happening is another reason why I would increase the commission but um the other the other thing that I think you get when you increase commission for evergreen anything is you'll get influencers producing content just that I don't even have to ask because they'll they'll look if they'll look at their own analytics and go oh I'm not making as much money as I want this month.

I think Taylor said there was new product coming out. I'm just going to like post for that. Makes sense. Is and then you said the other thing uh the other thing was that uh there's a there's a way in which giving people an affiliate relationship to things whether it's with the collection or their posts affiliate relationship ends up being the thing that um that sort it sounds like what you're saying is select for a certain kind of influencer.

Like essentially like it the kind of person who responds well to that deal is precisely the kind of person who trusts themselves to be able to sell and that's the kind of person you want for your product. Exactly like if if I if I am not confident in my ability to sell something and you offer me $10,000 I'm going to take that $10,000. If I know that like I the sky is the limit depending on the product and it might be less than $10,000 but like and here's the other part of this as a brand offering to replenish that product until it stops selling.

So you have a collection once but if you have just keep replenishing it it just becomes like easy mode right? Um so and and if you take $10,000 once compared to I'm offering you we're going to we're going to supply chain and reorder this and everything until it dies like it in in typically it should be good for both parties better for both parties. And so if there's pushback that can be a red flag. I'm not saying always but you know especially when people are just kicking off as an influencer they might not have the confidence and everybody's different but uh that's always been anybody who signs on for a commission only on a on a large capacity is a green flag green flag.

I'll work with you forever cuz it's only going to be up into the right for both. Yeah. Um and I've certainly heard you know the the comfort story which everybody's talking about a lot these days that the hoodie brand but like just that you know their value is so disproportionately driven by huge numbers of affiliates basically just just and and that they're doing this at like extremely massive amounts of scale where it's exactly that and it's it's that it's the same thing you hear in in that storytelling that it's like it's that selects for disproportionate people who have massive impact who have commission-based relationships and they make a ton of money in the process and the brand is very very happy to pay them because the the value is so massive.

And it seems to me that there's some way in which some of these brands are are doing something like what you're doing and trying to push this at um at at real scale with this combination of affiliate um commissions and actually some relationship building and and some of that kind of stuff built into it. And if you can find a way to do do the two of them where you can do sort of mass uh mass outreach in a way that feels normal there's where you really create a good opportunity to people.

You actually I don't know there's there's some kind of combination of those two things that works that that seems to work at the most massive scale possible. Now the stories like comfort get told precisely because they're outliers. Like and this is the thing I always like to point out to people it's like it's good to learn from those because they are such massive successes but also if it worked every time the story wouldn't be remarkable.

Like you know what I mean? So there's something about that brand and that product and whatever that sort of makes this thing work in a way that's different. And I think what you're describing is something that's like a little bit more almost like realistic and attainable which is like go build real relationships with people um to do that. Now what what you have on everybody else is a 10-year head start uh and and I think that's a big part of it.

In fact that that makes me ask the question like let's say you were starting Brian Anthony's and you didn't have all those relationships. Do you have any thoughts on like how you would start building this from the ground up? Yes I do because I'm like I said I'm realizing a lot of the relationships I had before are either those people kind of you know have changed. I thought I've got the answer a lot recently I'm not doing um like paid collections or collabs or anything anymore.

Um so like even though I have a 10-year head start really like I have a little bit of a head start less than a of a head start than maybe I thought I had but what I am what I'm happy about is that like the process still works right? So I'm still finding the collections that we're doing at Brian Anthony's um of the three only one of them is an existing relationship. So the other two are completely new people I'm found through the last couple months of working here.

Um so I do think it works. I was also at a conference last week where I was kind of preaching the way I'm doing this and some people were like it didn't work for me so then I was like maybe it is my relationships. I think it's probably a combination. I think if I was starting today I would if you are not willing as a brand to put a lot of product. You're going to have to spend a lot of money on the initial investment in product so your cogs and your shipping costs are going to be decent at the beginning.

Um I would not I would not advise just blindly sending out product. I would try to put some thought behind it but also if you're going to do this specifically the the way that I am doing it you need to seed a lot of inventory. Um yeah. I would say having a some sort of tracking system is like crucial and also um just because you know this is this is the thing it's it's okay it's Wednesday why is there you know a spike at 4:00 p.m.

It's probably an influencer. So just knowing who that is um and it's gotten so much easier. Like at the beginning when I was doing this like there was no transparency. Everything was hidden behind paywalls. Like we would have to pay like $50,000 just for me to see that it was only one person driving all the revenue. Um so it's gotten a lot a lot a lot easier in the industry whether you're on Shop My LTK Tik Tok whatever.

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You know at this point that I love Intelligems. I've been working with them for a long time. Most of my clients are using it. You should be too. intelligems.io /shaf for 20% off your first 3 months. Yeah. I I I'm really interested to hear you voice the influencer side of these relationships actually. As you're describing sort of the changing world of all of this. I mean, when you go and have dinner with a dozen influencers in Nashville, I'm sure one of the things that comes up is like, "What's it like right now?" Right?

Like you know, uh and like or you describe going to influencer conferences. Uh right? So there's conferences just for influencers, yeah? Yes, there is. Okay, I didn't know this. I didn't know this. >> thing. It's not surprising to me, but I didn't know it. Yeah. It's probably the most wild thing I've ever done. I've gone to like eight, I believe, in eight I went for 8 years in a row. Um and it's worth it. That if you can get to an influencer conference like conference, especially the ones that are specifically the the highest revenue producing influencers, I mean, talk to anybody you can.

Put product on anybody you can, right? Um Yeah, right. And then lay in the dark for 4 days afterward because it's overwhelming. >> [laughter] >> Uh What what's that What's that conference called? Uh the one I'm talking about is LTK, but there's a lot of them. There's a lot of them in Texas. Um but And this is all game. We're We're now speaking about really specific types of influencers. So like I have like definitely a niche of like the um Southern I like Southern States mom.

Uh a lot of ex-teachers. There's a lot of uh common denominators in the influencers that take off for me. Huh. Interesting. Um uh so what What is that side of the fence saying? Like what what is the conversation like for them about what what it is like to be an influencer right now. Like Do you see what I'm asking? What What is What What do they express about it? I find it really depends on the type of influencers. So I'll use my dinner for example here that I just had.

Um cuz I had a very diverse group of influencers because basically what I did was I'm in Nashville for something else. Let me see who I can get in Nashville and just look for any influencer in Nashville. Uh didn't And this is important for anyone doing this. Did not require any posting up at dinner. Did not require >> Yeah. No, yeah. They weren't even Some of them were not even revenue producing influencers. Some of them had never even seen our product.

Just get everybody in a room and then like what I said at the beginning, which I cannot stress how important this is, I believe, to the relationship is. Feel free to post if you want or don't. Enjoy your dinner. And the whole point of this is just for me to have a conversation with you. And like literally, um doing that makes everything better. Getting It makes sense. Putting a camera in someone's face is not going to, you know, it's not a great vibe if you're not having a conversation about it.

So talking to them, I I found that speaking with uh the revenue producing influencers, the influencers who are who are This is their full-time job. They don't have a side hustle. Just like anything, there's like ups and downs and like there are certain times like right now for example like geopolitically it's not a great time. So I think that is actually even affecting influencer marketing for the influencer because if their followers, depending on, you know, um million different factors, but like gas prices for example, it's going to affect their own analytics.

So hearing that from their point of view is always interesting. And then the other thing is they will sometimes come to me as the brand for advice for how to lock down other brands, right? So um I think that having that kind of relationship with influencers, being like human, and and this also kind of goes into like negotiating with rates. Like explaining to them, "Listen, if we have a sell-through of this collection, we're only going to make I don't know, $30,000.

So I can't pay you $30,000." Like, you know, just >> Right. thing, the whole relationship, the whole business model, um hearing what hearing what they're complaining about and seeing how I can help and vice versa, explaining, you know, "If I don't break even on this, it's not going to look good for me. So like help me out, right?" Like the whole thing is kind of a It's It's It is what it is. I don't know. I'm I'm rambling. >> No, no, there's there's an actual relationship you're saying.

I So So you're saying right now uh from influencers they're seeing challenges related to geopolitical moments, stuff like that. Like like they're posting and not generating as much revenue, etc. >> Yes, 100%. And like Are they Go ahead. No, like in the last 10 years I've seen this go up and down, right? COVID. Like that was great for influencers. It was fantastic. It was like amazing thing. Um because what everyone's stuck on Everyone's working from home for 2 weeks and then like they're on their phone and they're, you know, um that COVID was the height of influencer marketing in my opinion.

It was Yeah. best collections I've ever done. Best days I'd ever done. Everything across the board. Um So And like I do think that it's it's the industry has changed so much because like at the beginning of me doing this, people didn't even know that they were watching an influencer. And now these people's jobs are influencers and people follow them because they're influencers. How many times can I say influencer in 1 minute?

But yeah. >> [laughter] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I um What What is Do you get any perspective from influencers about sort of platform, you know? Like let's say I built my following on Instagram. Are they like nervous about TikTok or are they trying to move over there? Like or or vice versa? Like Do Do they have preferences from your perspective on sort of like, you know, these kinds of things? And And I again, speaking specifically to your sort of like uh Southern mom teacher type type influencer.

Uh maybe maybe that that particular niche. Yeah, I would say that the most interesting insight I have for platform is actually through their affiliates. So like like they are on LTK. They a lot of them were on LTK and a lot of them had now moved to Shop My. And the their audience was trained about how to shop easily within the LTK app, which functions, if you've never used it, like like any other like shopping app, I guess.

But almost like a hybrid of like Pinterest and Instagram. Um so like the fact that a lot of people are migrating off of that is really challenging because you have to train your retrain your customer. Will your customer follow you? And then I would say that I've always found that you're either a TikTok influencer or an Instagram influencer. Or even weirder, which still still is a massive massive um category for me, a blogger.

Which you would think is dead because who is reading blogs? But like a lot of these more mature influencers who are like maybe 50, 60, who are blogging about whatever, their blog, they'll charge more for their blog than anything else and it converts better. So that's why they're charging more. Super interesting. That Yeah. So Yeah, that's really interesting. I had one influencer who had a newsletter that when I did a collection for with her, she blasted her newsletter and that was all the revenue.

So her email list was the whole thing. It was It's fascinating. Yeah, just any owned audience anywhere like that can work. An email list, I mean, that if you run a brand, that shouldn't be too shocking, right? You just You know that email lists convert really really well, right? So it's like Yeah, the kind that kind that kind of person too who like subscribes to your email list is almost by definition self-selected as really your content and and very influenced by you, you know, in the true sense of the word.

Uh another question I have for you is how do you think about you know, there's one way of thinking about this in a very MLM way, which is like you build the you you kind of build up these sort of affiliate type relationships and then you actually get collections with them and some of them have this outsized impact and and all that kind of stuff. But I'm curious how you think about this as for a brand like Brian Anthony's where there's also some work to be done um at sort of the brand level where where you're It seems to me one of your one of your tasks here is to sort of revitalize the brand a little bit um and to to bring some new life to it.

It had sort of been slow on product development for a little while now and and and some of those things. And so one of the things I see you doing in the brand is like breathing new life into it, making it feel a little more lived in, bringing out new products and and all that kind of stuff. Like what do you um what do you see as uh as the role of influencer in sort of that element of it? Do Sort of the almost like what I'm asking is like the the harder to track value in influencer.

Does that Does that something Is that something you're thinking much about or is it sort of secondary to you? So I would say that yeah, right now we're definitely in like a fa- a change for Brian Anthony's, right? Like it had all of this amazing marketing. There were so many images from like 2016. They They invested so much money in marketing. Um but everything looks very 2016. So as we are like, you know, revamping product, new product launches, new brand guidelines, all of that, and then also adding creators in.

I am getting feedback from creators about the brand and like although you know, some good, some bad. I've had a lot of positive It just It's interesting because as somebody is coming in to improve the branding, that whenever somebody has positive feedback, I'm like, "Okay, don't change that, right?" So, I would say getting someone to post because of the way our brand feels is probably It's important because the influencers who can afford to be choosy with who they're working with probably convert the best.

The way that I'm getting around that now as I think there's a lot with lots of room for improvement is um by putting very little guidelines on anything that they're doing. So, here's product. Make it you. You don't have to Here's a luxury because lots of brands give you scripts and specific things that you must do. Um Style it how you want and and that's it, really. Yeah, so you you Yeah, that's interesting. Do you think of the value of that in terms of in terms of like Do you I don't know if you think about it this way, but do you expect that to sort of um create any I don't know.

Do you think in terms of awareness? Do you think in terms of brand equity? Any of those kinds of categories when you think about this beyond just sales themselves? Yeah, I think that um I think the the biggest thing if if you're looking at, and this is already starting to happen. So, like I start day one at Brian Anthony, there's little to no influencers. Now that I've had a couple people who are a little bit larger names, that helps other influencers want to post. >> Yeah.

Oh, interesting. They influence each other. I have literally had influencers work out with me because they saw I did a collection with somebody that they look up to. Actually, not That's the That's incredibly common. Like cuz a lot of a lot of these influencers are born out of a place of Like there's one really, really large influencer who I've had like the luxury of working with for years. And one of like maybe my like third or fourth highest revenue producing influencers is a fan girl of the that influencer.

So, she came up following that pattern. You see it all the time in the industry. So, like if you can get people with like clout, I can't even believe I'm saying it out loud, to post for you, encourage influencers to post for the brand and also will in turn make your brand look cooler even if you're in the middle of a massive revamp. It It seems like there's just an element of all of this where you're talking about conferences and influencers following influencers and people having sort of, you know, influencing the influencers.

Like you've got uh you know, these these affiliate models, you've got all the software. It just like This is one of the reasons I like talking to you about this is that you've just It's You just have a feel for the way their whole world works, you know? And and I think I think it comes back to something you said in the beginning, which is that it feels like a sales role. Like where you are getting into their world. And the actual comparison I was thinking of in my mind was almost like when I hear people who are in med device sales talk about what it is like to be in med device sales.

And it's like what those people are doing, like they understand the way that doctors operate, they understand the way that hospitals operate, they understand where the conferences are, where the all that kind of stuff is, and and they do dinners, and they do, you know, all that stuff. So, um it's very similar to that kind of thing where you know, you're able to kind of become a friend to these people and there's a business relationship part of it, and you Yeah.

Yeah. The whole thing is powered on relationships, knowledge of space, knowledge of what their life is actually like, and then treating people in a certain way within that with the expectation that in the long term a lot of those things are not going to generate a whole bunch of value for Brian Anthony's, but that a few of them are going to generate outsized value, and you never know which ones are going to be there in advance, so you just keep building all the relationships across the board.

You text people during the day, you're meeting with people, you're sending them flowers, all that stuff. It's like this holistic picture where you're really deeply understanding these people's worlds and continuing to invest in deep, you know, in them. That feels to me like with a real specific expectation of how the how the benefit gets created. Um Do you think it's a fair summary of the of your approach? Yeah, 100%.

I think I think it's And again, like I think it the approach has changed over the years just based on what's working and what's not, but like the one thing that um kind of like like I know you mentioned this earlier, but like kind of like AI right now, like just trying to seem as human as possible with these kind of the brand deals and I know that not everybody can or wants to have like a personal relationship with their influencer community.

Sure. Sure. Sure. But even if you're not taking people for dinner, which I do recommend because I literally have gone to bed before being like, "Well, that was a waste of time and company money." And then been like, "Oh, just kidding." Like that led me to an intro to somebody else who led to like one of the highest Like and It's like what Anytime you do anything in the business world, you might It might not be how you think you're going to get there, but something might, you know, branch off of it.

But Yeah, I know that not everybody's going to be able to like dedicate time to be like being friends with all their influencers, but I think by looking at it in more of a uh sales model meets uh just flood the flood the ocean. I don't know. It's It's both, right? I think it's Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm so fascinated by this conversation right now, and I'm going to have a couple other episodes, like I said, kind of around this.

I've got Jordan West. I think by the time this comes out, he he's probably was already on. But I haven't talked to him yet. But Jordan Jordan West is, you know, social commerce. His his whole thing is sort of like this stuff on TikTok Shop and and all that. He's going to talk about the new Instagram affiliate world that just got announced. Um So, yeah, go back probably and listen to that if if you if you like this conversation.

I'm having Lauren Bonfiglio, like I said, from Little Words Project, and their whole approach, which is good. I'm going to talk to him with Richie Machiko from She's Birdie, and talk about some of the things that he's doing. The reason I I'm so fascinated by a lot of this right now is that when I just look at the world of D2C and I look at great brands, they great brands and really a lot of times, like our most successful clients are able to combine these sort of larger efforts on the brand side to create moments and meaning for their customers and for their brand uh and they're able to combine that with uh you know, our sort of approach to performance marketing and and intelligent financial management and some and some of that kind of stuff.

And when you get those two things together, where it's like really good tactical media buying and really good performance marketing alongside brands that are building real moments and real calendar and real product development and all that stuff. And a lot of times yeah, if when you get those two things together, that's the actual path to sustainable growing success over time. And if brands can't do that do one of those, they really, really struggle a lot of times.

There are exceptions to this. Some brands are so good tactically that they can sort of like they almost don't need to do some of that stuff. But that's so rare. And almost almost always the the the two really reinforce each other. And um and so I'm I'm very fascinated by hearing these different models of this because when I look down the pipe at Brian Anthony's, you've only been there for a couple months, you know, but I'm like I'm just extremely confident in its future because of the way that you're describing what you're doing and the sort of long tail of payoff, but it always comes back to this thing that you just said a second ago, which is like you take these people to dinner and you go to bed thinking like, "Gosh, that was a waste of time." or whatever.

But then it turns out that actually this relationship created this relationship, created this relationship, whatever, and over the long tail you end up winning. And when you take that view of these sorts of things and you build deep relationships and you build, you know, um uh larger programs, and you combine that with consistent execution over time, the kind of stuff that you and I are talking about week to week on our calls or or whatever it is that we're that we're doing as AJF Growth as your agency, like uh you know, those those I think combine to over the long tail create just like a huge, huge amount of value in in the whole thing whole thing grows.

So, that's I mean, it's part of why, like I said, I'm really fascinated by this right now cuz I'm I'm just watching this play out for a bunch of brands, and there's I just don't think there's a way around it. I just think like it's really you know, it's extremely rare that a brand could do a great job without having a real investment into both sides of this in D2C right now. Yeah, for sure. And also like I I know you had asked this question before, but I also think anyone starting influencers today, you need to really, really realize, because this was the case for me, it's going to be 3 to 6 months for the most part before you really have the machine on.

Like I've done this before Like the first 6 months I did this at my previous company, I didn't have the relationships I was bringing over to this company, and it just felt like it was a waste of time. Like I don't even know why we were doing it. But it worked. And like I was just at this conference where I was talking to somebody who was an expert in TikTok Shop who told me the exact same thing. 3 months, just don't expect to do anything but lose money, and then when you break even, that's when the fun starts because then the machine grows.

So, I think like it's really difficult for brands to risk that, especially small companies, but if you can get somebody in that's, you know, scrappy and insane enough to let you do it, or it's it's it's great. Um I'm really hopeful for the collections we have coming out later in the year because, like you said, like if you can make a moment, like I have had days that were like in the heat of August, which is like the worst e-commerce like month, that were comparable to like Black Friday.

And if you can do that, like that's why I believe in creators. I will pitch that to whoever because to have that I mean, that works because I mean, somebody is actually like going to their calendar August 13th when they're like on their boat or something and like, "I'm going to buy some jewelry." right? Which is insane. Right. Right. Yeah, I That's totally right. I um I had Jordan West who I just mentioned a second ago, but I had Jordan West I've had him on, I think, twice before this.

And And And one of the times I had him on, I was talking about TikTok Shop, and I I just kept trying to get him to tell me how you could do do Tik Tok shop without losing a bunch of money up front. He just wouldn't say it. He just He just wouldn't He just wouldn't. Yeah, and yeah, and and I I appreciated that there was integrity in the answer cuz it was like, "No, you you have to be ready for the fact that this is a there is upfront time and cost to make this all work." Um and and that's that's just like the reality of it.

And I think it's like, "Okay, well, if that's what the game is, then that's what the game is. That's what people need to hear." And I I just I sort of love that. I want people to have a sense that it's not easy. You have to effort it and it's going to take time um and and upfront cost, but then over the long term, that's where you get the payoff of something sustainable that really keeps growing and that really keeps succeeding.

So, All right, Taylor, you're a killer. Um if you want to uh to uh get more from Taylor, she's posting on LinkedIn more often, becoming business influencer herself. Um you'll be able to take her to dinner uh at some point here soon. Yeah, yeah. Uh Taylor uh uh is on LinkedIn. The show notes uh the link for that's in the show notes. Go give her a follow and and step with her content on this kind of stuff in the journey of Brian Anthony's.

I'm sure we'll we'll come back to it at some point down the line as well. Tay- Taylor, thanks so much for your time. Yeah, thanks for having me. >> [music] >> Big thanks to Taylor for taking the time in this episode to talk about what she's doing. I hope you heard what I heard when I first talked to her, which is somebody who has spent a lot of time working on this, thinking about this, and thinking about how influencer marketing bubbles up all the way through the brand to create all kinds of opportunities.

Uh she's just really talented and uh and I appreciate her time a lot. Like I said, I'm going to have a bunch of other episodes coming soon or have recently done them about influencer. I've seen a few different models recently of people doing really cool stuff in the space of influencer and creator. And the interesting thing to me is that there's people doing it different ways. There's stuff like Taylor where it's like go really really deep.

Have maybe not have a big list, but go really deep with people, make lots of relationship. There's other people who are building sort of just like price the CPM of your last 10 videos and see what happens if you pay that same price for future content and very transactional. There's all kinds of different ways to do it. Um >> [music] >> but there's there's some principles that are are carrying through all of them and that especially includes the idea that you should be investing in this kind of work to build a great brand.

And increasingly, I'm just seeing this all the time. I'm really hot on this right now. Such an obvious point, but brands that operate effectively with real financial intelligence, real thoughtfulness to their media buying and the tactics and the kind of things that [music] we talk about all the time that I talk about all the time, alongside building a brand that really resonates deeply with people, that's how you win.

Uh and so I'm going to keep bringing those examples on for it. So, hope you liked that episode as much as I enjoyed talking to Taylor and as much as I enjoyed talking to her all the time cuz she's a client of mine. Uh email me if you have thoughts about the podcast today at ajfgrowth.com. Go to ajfgrowth.com if you want to hear see [music] anything that I am doing, including uh if you want to work with us. So, you can go fill out the intake form there.

Uh and uh tell me a little bit about your business. I'll get back to you via email when you do [music] that. You can um you can also you should also go check out my sponsors for this episode. Big thanks to More Staffing and Intelligems, both of whom the links for links for them are in the show notes. Uh I love both of those those uh agency and and products. They're just great. Go check them both out. I think that's it for this episode.

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