Would You Keep Working If You Had Enough Money To Quit? (With Olivia Kory From Haus) transcript

This podcast episode might be unlike any other I have ever done in that it gets into very personal life questions with some of the most detail ever for a guest I've had on this show. Olivia Corey, the chief strategy officer at House, who's been on this podcast before, bringing incredible incrementality data, reached out to me a while back in the DMs about some episodes I've done with Mike Beckham and Alex Scarfeld about life and where do we find joy in our work and how does money create joy in our lives and those kinds of things.

For a bunch of people in the e-commerce space who are in this world, I think there's a lot of people who are having some measures of success, maybe a lot, maybe a little, and who are trying to answer what to do with their time, with their money, work life balance, all these questions. Olivia came with those thoughts and questions about her own life, about her own relationship to money, the time she spends with her kids and her husband and her sense of purpose in the world.

And we just kicked around for a long time how we are answering questions about what we are doing all of this for. So this is not going to get asked tactical though. Stick around for the very end where I did make Olivia give us one incrementality study result that's actually super spicy and fascinating. So stick around for that at the very end of the conversation as well. I'm not going to delay it anymore. Let's get into it with Olivia Corey, chief strategy officer at House and just human being trying to sort out how to live a good and meaningful life while working with the work she loves.

Let's do it. >> Olivia, um, do you have enough money? >> Yes. >> Okay. End of episode. Good talk. >> Um, yeah. Well, I mean that's that sets up Yeah. I mean, that's how I feel, too. That sets up I think a lot of stuff in this conversation. So you're the chief strategy officer at House like that you can say and I don't know what you can say about your sort of equity position in that but if house has an incredible outcome and you made I don't know a bajillion more dollars however many you want to put on that like what would happen in your life if that happened what do you think you'd spend it on what do you think you'd do with it?

I've been thinking about this a lot lately and >> I'm assuming you have equity, you know, like Yeah. So, >> I I do have equity. Uh but the the crazy thing is when you when you think about what it affords you is it sort of affords you the opportunity to stop working. >> Yeah. >> Right. Like that's what I think about is then you you really don't need to work anymore if you have an outcome >> like that and then it's like well but I want to keep working and so I really don't know what I would do differently.

It it's I had a a moment a few years ago, maybe five years ago, where we were able to to start living comfortably and, you know, you don't have to stress about the day-to-day or just living paycheck to paycheck anymore. You've paid off your student loans and you're through it. We live in Michigan now also and we got used to living in LA and paying LA rents and LA costs. We're back in Michigan, which makes things much easier.

And so, >> houses are free there, aren't they? >> Oh my gosh, you don't want to know what I paid for my house. Uh we have a four fourbedroom house and I I won't tell you and that's that's >> because I do live in LA for people who don't know. So yeah. >> Where are you in LA? >> In the South Bay. I live in the South Bay of LA. So like uh Rondo Beach, Torrance uh Hermosa Beach area. Yeah. Well, that was that was the impetus is we were we were in a one-bedroom uh in West Hollywood with no in-unit laundry and COVID was raging and we wanted a house with a yard and we were starting our family and so that's how we ended up back here.

It just made all the sense in the world uh when when the pandemic was was going on. But yeah, I mean back to your question dayto day I can't imagine what would change. Nothing. >> I mean that's interesting. You think literally you think nothing would change at all? you would just keep working. >> Well, I love working. >> Yes, me too. >> It brings me a lot of joy >> and so I can't imagine feeling fulfilled without something.

Maybe it's not full time >> but without without something. >> Do you think you love working at house specifically? Cuz some people's answer to this kind of question is like they keep working but they work on a totally different project you know >> you know like once you get good at something you enjoy it. >> Yeah. Like so I remember in the beginning of my career you you kind of hate it because you don't know what you're doing.

I was in the I was in agency world and then once you become an expert in something like I remember at Netflix like the the expertise that I had was very much valued then it's it's a lot of fun I would say and I've always like poured myself into my work like that has been a pretty consistent trend for many years now. So, okay. So, the the appeal to staying at somewhere like house is that you're good at it and that I think your work is inherently interesting.

It just is like you're testing and learning and seeing how the whole ecosystem of companies are interacting with advertis. It's like it's really interesting. It's big problems and you're never going to get every answer that there will always be more questions to keep chasing down. So, let's say let's just play this out. If you made millions of dollars, let's just call it something like that, right? Would you go buy a 7,000 foot house or whatever?

Like, wouldn't that be something you could use your even if you kept working? like just go live in more comfort and luxury. >> Our house is pretty big here. You can get a lot you can get a lot of real estate uh in in Michigan. So yeah, like I I love my car. I drive a Tesla Model 3. I got it in 2018, >> like one of the first cars off the lot and like I never want to get rid of it. I just love I love it. So like no, like in terms of >> material possessions there and you know what, my husband is from Iowa.

Like I feel like this might be relevant to the conversation. >> He grew up like in a farm town in Iowa and so I I do think your partner has a lot to do with it where like he is a very simple person. And so even the way we're living in Michigan in suburban Michigan >> feels like pretty luxurious. And so maybe that's what's influencing my answers here a little bit bit more than than you might think. >> It's such an interesting thing, right?

Because like you said like this is theoretically the thing that's supposed to keep you connected to the the job. Like that's the point of equity in part, right? Is like you've got this potential giant outcome. But what you're telling me is like you don't see a real way in which that adds something that you really value to your life. Like I I hear you saying my house is already big enough. I love my car. I don't it's fine as it is right now.

I don't really need anything more. And so so whatever that could be. I mean you could take crazier trips, right? Like I I don't know. I've heard you talk about the Lions. Like couldn't you go sit front row at those games a lot? Like >> tickets are getting very expensive for the Lions. I think it's like one of the most expensive NFL tickets out there right now. But >> yeah, >> you know what's with what what what I often say and I I genuinely believe this is that like house is as missiondriven of a company as you will find in the space and >> uh I think that's why I love it so much is like I was on the brand side very happy like in growth marketing at Sonos and >> I started working on the incrementality stuff with my founder Zach and like pretty quickly realized like oh this is the most important work that I'm doing right now across all my priorities at this and then you like realize the transformation it can have on an organization and and you're you're working with smaller businesses like >> this is this is it's more of kind of like an enterprise problem. >> Yeah.

But when you realize like the way they're making very big investment decisions and how kind of tangled up you have like incentive problems with the ad platforms just like tangled up in this also this like CMOS need to prove out some quick wins because CMO tenures are so short. you have like this whole web of incentive issues and house is kind of like one giant experiment in how much marketers like want the truth like it it really is like that I'm I'm doing I find myself doing like a lot of anti-elling >> right now as brands are coming in of like what if our test results showed you this this and this would you still want to keep going because it's like so much more about the organizational change management >> and that's why I do think I I think it it is it does feel like bigger than than just marketing measurement.

It really feels like we're kind of like changing the way decisions are made in these organizations and we're not exposing it's not like malicious, but like we're sort of peeling back the curtain on a lot of of of really troublesome kind of trends. And so, you know, if I'm to like dig a step deeper, I do feel like that is why I get out of bed every morning and that's why I love it so much. >> All right. So you told me before we started recording like okay you have the freedom to like go there with your questions.

So asked so I'm gonna ask a specific one. You just described house as a missiondriven company and again I think everything you just described sounds interesting like to me those are those are interesting problems. In fact you've even made them more interesting with the anti-elling comment where it's like yeah I'm very fascinated by that. The idea that you could sort of prove somebody wrong and they would actually not want that information where organizations are sort of built to work against the truth. so to speak.

So if that's the case, all that being said, all that being interesting and mission driven, is that a mission worth caring about that much, like let's say you could convince all the organizations to optimize their marketing spend, does that give you a purpose in life? Do you know what I mean? >> Because it's very different than the mission of a nonprofit or something, right? Like where it's like, oh, you could cure cancer or something, you know? >> Yeah.

But I almost don't want to be in that business because you can't be creative >> like like there there is just no room for risktaking in the field of curing cancer or are saving lives, you know, and and so I think once you realize you're the type of person who likes to be creative and likes problem solving, then it kind of puts you on that path. And I I don't know that, you know, short of like making a different decision out of college, I just like don't know if I'm willing to give up that part of the job that enables you to take risks and and and get creative.

But yeah, no, in terms of of mission, like my husband is also in this industry and we joke that like we are doing nothing to to help civilization and to advance society and you hear a lot of people talk about this like the goal is to make enough money that you can give back in other ways and add to the community in that way. >> But you can already do that. You just told me about your house and your car. You already can give back in other ways, you know? >> So like even even that like if you made if again if you had an exit, you know, and and that was where you decided that was what was going to provide value.

And this is like the interesting this is the very interesting question to me is like how any it's the reason I come back to this on this podcast a lot is like and and for me personally it's the thing I'm wrestling with all the time and my wife as well like is like what is actually the highest return on my money and time in terms of the value it occurs to me and my life relative to like value is a weird word like the way I would put it in fact most simply I would say like how do I optimize my life for joy so like how does money create the most joy as a return of my life because I know there's some things that give me some amounts of joy but is there a way to exchange money or time or some combination of those two things for joy for me personally that is the question I am after and that gets very much towards like questions around meaning and purpose and mission and all those kind of things you know because one of the things I hear hear you saying is like maybe a boat would give you a little more joy but it doesn't sound like it really motivates you you know to like you don't think it would give you that much more joy you know so I don't know maybe you hadn't considered a boat though >> so my brother lives like 10 minutes away and has a boat on a lake.

That's all new. I think the takeaway here is going to be everybody's going to want to move to suburban Michigan. But I I'm actually curious what your answer because I think you and Mike talked about this. Mike Beckham uh some of the inspiration for this podcast is uh money is a tool like and once you start thinking of money is is the thing is like the destination >> that's where things go go south. But do you have any answers to that question of like where could you trade money for joy?

Yeah, I have two things that I think are have become the strongest ideas about this. So, one of them is is actually directly from Mike. It's a point that I heard him make. Mike went on Sam Par's podcast a while back. And this is actually that spurred my conversation with Mike and a lot of other conversations with Mike I've had. He sort of makes the case for giving away money extremely generously in the podcast. And it's interesting because Sam Parr in the episode basically does his sort of like the interviews over narrator notes at the end of it and he says, "This was the most impactful conversation I've had.

Like I immediately hung up the phone and went and talked to my wife and talked about giving away more money because Mike sort of convinced him that it was a really good idea." Have you listened to that? >> No, I haven't listened to that episode. >> It's really really good. Uh I think Mike quotes in that episode that that he had generated $20 million in one year and gave away 19. >> So it's like a like a really radical amount of giving.

The case Mike made was basically that the actual greatest source of joy in everybody's life is relationships. And therefore, you ought to figure out how to use money to generate relationships. And actually getting extremely wealthy often cuts against relationship in some really direct ways. It puts social distance between you and like quote unquote normal people. And then it also makes you suspicious of why people want to be friends with you.

I heard a great story about this a long time ago where a guy I knew, he was a college professor and he was getting lunch weekly with a guy who had played in the NFL. And you know, they go to get lunch the first time and the guy who um who played uh in the NFL goes to cover the check and my friend said or this professor said like, "No, we're going to split it 50/50." And the guy was like, he said, "I know you're good for it, but the problem is if I let you pay for this every week, you're going to wonder just a little bit in the back of your mind if I'm not actually interested in being friends with you.

If like what I actually want is like some association with your money and status, basically." I think that's really wise because I think that is what happens for people who get extremely wealthy is that suddenly people are interested in them for those reasons and it's much harder to maintain those relationships. So that's one of the things for me is like if I actually assess my life and look at where my greatest joy is, it's in my wife, my kids, my friends and things like that.

And then the second thing that I would say is that there is a broader truth here that I've come to believe more strongly which is that in almost every area of life and I think you actually just described it with your work. All of us recognize that uh that discomfort is the path to joy in some ways. And what I mean by that is like working out is really hard, but you feel great afterwards. You know, in fact, it requires you to feel uncomfortable and to feel discomfort to generate the good feeling and the health afterwards, right?

The reason you would want to keep working and the reason why many people who quit working are actually kind of miserable if they just try to like twiddle their thumbs all the time which which Patrick Kadoo my COO and and business partner would tell you that happened for him at supply that he went into a period that was really hard after he sold supply and didn't need to work anymore and coming back to work with me now is because like actually it's because the challenge is actually the interesting thing generating too much comfort in your life has actually a way of working against your joy not towards it that's what I think and therefore one of the sort of like medications you can give yourself in advance is to not let yourself get overly comfortable.

And this is where it's it's again to good to be careful to say like I'm not saying it's good to be poor. I think it's also very clearly the case that poverty relief generates more joy for people like being poor is not joyful necessarily. Although I'll say I do think there's a kind of joy that is big enough even for people who are poor and people have all heard those stories a million times, right? But sort of once you get to that baseline level, sort of what you're describing, like exactly your situation is right, which is like more comfort and more possessions, I'm not sure is actually going to add any more joy.

And in fact, possibly maintaining some challenges or difficulties or whatever. And I think difficulties might be the wrong word, is important. So I think Mike's case for generosity is really interesting in this case, which is that more radical levels of generosity produce joy in your life because they keep you relationally in a better spot with other people. So that works for sort of standard number one there. And number two, it actually works against your ability to get too comfortable.

And I think that's really counterintuitive. But the thing that's so interesting to me about this is that everybody knows this discomfort thing is true in every other life. Like there is no other explanation for the rise of the ice bath than this, you know, which is that like everybody recognizes that you need that, but then at the same time they will we will sort of give our lives to the pursuit of more comfort and more possessions, you know, um and without recognizing there's sort of this inherent attention there.

So that's uh a more principled level answer to your question. I'm happy to be more specific, but that's the way I think about it. And I'll pause there and see what you think. >> I've kind of oscillated in between startups and big companies over my career, probably 50/50, but I bounced in and out and and I I joined a bigger company right around when we were having kids. And I thought to myself like, well, this is the time I need to settle down and I need to go for work life balance and this is not the time to pursue a startup.

And and at that time I knew Zach was doing house and I knew that was kind of an opportunity on the table. But I was like this is not the right time in my life. I need to focus on my family. And then I I joined and I was bored. I was like it's this is exactly what you're what you're getting at which is that I like I like I love the pace of startups and I love problem solving and and I like working on really interesting problems.

And so I remember having a conversation with CFO from one of my last companies and and she was a mentor of mine and I was telling her about the position I was in where I have this startup opportunity but it doesn't feel like the right time in my life and she said to me she's like you should never have to choose between a job that you want and your family. It was almost like the permission I felt that I needed to take this job.

And you shouldn't need permission, but I was like, you know, I was feeling guilt about like where I should be in my life, but that guilt is like still there somewhere deep inside. And it's probably why I like we're having this conversation right now. And >> yeah, >> we didn't say this up top, but we should we should say that like we are insanely lucky people. And the intent of this episode >> is not to feel sorry for for myself in any way, but I I hope like maybe the the part that's relatable is like you just don't want to live a life with regret.

And I am I'm in it right now. We're so in it with house and I love it. And I think about house like >> way too many hours every single day. >> Yeah. >> Uh and it it does bring me a lot of joy and fulfillment. But I I am wondering like is this the right time in my life? Like am I going to look back on this with two little kids? >> Yeah. and think like, "Oh, I just wasted the best years of my life." Really? Like just so deep in in this company and and for what?

If you're not doing it for the financial outcome, then then what is it for? And I've come to realize like I just love it. And so that there's like a line there of like >> what is it's it's hard not to let it consume you when you're when you're really in it in the trenches. >> Make this the year that you cut OPEX. make OPEX lower, drive more profit in your business, and do that in part by working with Rich Panel. Rich Panel is customer service help desk software that is built from the ground up with AI that is 30% cheaper guaranteed, 30% more affordable, guaranteed, than uh Zenesk or Gorgeous.

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It comes across very clearly how how interested you are personally in it. like you it never feels like you're talking to me about house stuff because it's your job and you have to and like oh I guess it's good for me to go on a podcast and you know do brand awareness or whatever. It's like I'm sure that's all true and that's fine but also like it's just clear that you're personally interested in the problems and and they're interesting to you know but I actually think there's another trap here which is like the things that we are interested in are unreliable guides to what will bring us joy personally.

This is this is again I'm just gonna speak for myself here, but um I and I think I hear you wrestling with one of these things which is like I I think that like my own desires are not a reliable pointer towards towards joy. And so there becomes ways and I think you know when you describe like house eating up lots and lots of your hours or something like that. >> The the very problem with that because I relate I mean I own my business like I want to work on it all the time too, you know?

Like it is so much easier for me to do work than to play with my six-year-old. It's so much easier. Like a six-year-old and my four-year-old like, you know, it's just it's just not close. So, and the problems of work are like at the in the very moment are much more interesting than like uh whatever he wants to build with me, you know? >> Okay, you can admit that. >> I I am awesome. I am awesome at magnetiles at this point, but like it's still there's a limitation to what kind of structures I want to build, you know? >> I feel bad admitting that. >> Yeah. >> But it's true.

I uh I feel like a bad mom. Like when >> Do you think there's Do you think that's a mom level thing too? Like it is different for moms and dads. >> I don't know. But but >> I feel like I shouldn't I'm wrong to think that way. Like I should be like everybody tells you that the a you know my my kids are four in one that like oh my gosh you're all you're gonna wish for these days then you're gonna wish for them back like you know >> and >> but then you know you're you're like in the playroom in the basement and you're like it's like very hard to not let my mind wander back to work and I I don't have any answers for that.

I was wondering if you had any tips for for how to stay present because even >> I mean I put my phone away and like even when I put my phone away I'm still thinking about the day and >> in some of the meetings and kind of synthesizing. >> I this is so relatable to me. I think especially at this stage of life like it's just really I don't I think if my wife is not in the house right now uh but I think she would >> listen. >> No, there's nothing she could be less interested in than my podcast.

Um, uh, no. Uh, I think I think she would say that I'm not also that great at this. I do work like a 40-hour work week in general, unless I'm like traveling, but that's only like once a month for a couple days probably. Like it's not it's just not. So, I work a pretty normal work week. I have really noticed how much like I always need something to be consuming and I think that's not good. Like a podcast when I'm doing the dishes, a podcast or yeah, just like when the kids go to bed, I put something on TV.

It's like that's not good. I don't think it's good. and I I want more brain space to open up for other thinking. It's it's hard for me to sit and read a book and that that feels just like the normal phone addiction stuff. So, yeah, there's that plus like the sort of constant thing going on in the background with work. And then, yeah, again, like the downshift from work level thinking to four-year-old level thinking is really hard.

But one of the things I would point out about this is that this is where I would also say like I'm not sure my my desires in that moment are super reliable as a pointer to to joy. Like I think it's possible that maybe like that I need to figure out how to deal with that and sort of fight through it so that my to build relationship with my kid because that's how kids do that at this age. I don't Yeah, I don't think I have a great answer to this question, but I that's that's like that's my kind of question about it is like if I want to work all the time, I'm not sure that's actually good.

Even though I want to do it. I always used to think the problem that people would describe with like the workaholism or whatever was like, oh, cuz the boss is keeping you there or because you just want the money or something like that. But the real problem I face is that I like it too much. It's not that it's imposed on me, you know? >> A thousand%. That is the one of the biggest realizations you have. Like some sometimes people around here will ask me like, "Well, can you talk to your boss?" And I'm like, this isn't coming from my boss.

You know, like if I told Zach that I wanted to be part-time and I wanted to be a more present parent, he would he could not be more supportive of that. >> I don't feel any of that pressure. It's all from within. It's almost scary, right? Because there's what is the solution then. >> All right. Sounds like you're dealing with the same the same thing. I thought you were going to impart some wisdom on me, Andrew. >> Well, I'll give you the one comment that has been helpful to me with this that has actually freed me to work.

Number one, Bill Alessandro a long time ago, I heard him say, you know, people use the burners analogy, like your work, like a stove top. There's your work burner and your play burner and your marriage burner and your and your parenting burner, whatever. And the idea is like keep all of them at the right amount of hotness, otherwise something burns or something, you know, or some or one of them goes down. Do you get the idea? >> Yep. >> Okay.

I was at an e-commerce fuel event and somebody raised their hand and said, "Can your work burner be too high?" And Bill, before the panelist could answer from the crowd, stood up and was like, "Absolutely it can." Like people talk about like the goal being in life to just like be with your kids 100% of the time. And and he said like his wife said to him like was your dad at home 100% of the time and Bill was like no.

He's like and his wife said like do you have a good relationship with your dad? Did you experience him as absent? And he was like great relationship with my dad. He wasn't absent. I'm glad he worked. And she was like so why do you think it's different for you and your kids? But that's like fetishized almost in in the entrepreneur community. It's like work so you have freedom to spend all your time with your kids. But actually the work burner but then the kids burner can be too high.

Uh, did I say work burner earlier? I meant kids burner. The kids the parenting burner can be too high. Um, and that was like that was freeing to me. It's like, oh yeah, that's right. My kids actually need to see me working and caring about it and have some vision for that, you know? So, that's that's one thing. The second thing I would say is like uh I work out at four o'clock when I work out and that's been nice because then I have like uh like three or four days.

Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. I'm not up at 4 in the morning. uh uh unless my child wanders into my room to wake me up. But that like having an hour where it's like there's something physical that sort of separates me from work mode to dad mode has been really useful. So just because there's like a physical reality to that. So that's a smaller one. >> One of my mentors who has enough money now to retire, he's he's young. He has three kids and you know they're they're probably like your kids age, maybe a little bit older.

I was catching up with him and he's like he's always talked about his plan and then executing on his plan and he sold the shares in his company and bought a house in Spain and they were going to retire to Spain and I asked him about it and he's like yeah if he stopped working and he's like I don't want my kids to see me not working. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Like so you you got all the details of the plan in place and you're ready to hit execute and you're not executing.

These are the conversations I have where when you asked me at the top like do I have enough money? said yes because it's just like you're not going to stop working anyway because we love it. >> Yeah. And >> we want our kids working. >> The kids thing with money is another thing. Morgan Hel makes this point. He basically says I think in psychology of money he says like has anybody figured out the right way to give money to your kids.

Like it's actually a super hard problem. Like you give them too much. They're spoiled. You give them not enough. They're resentful. You give it to them when you die. You give it to them before you die. Like like it's just like and I I think that's I think that's a real thing. Like I it's another really hard thing to figure out and the world's going to have to figure it out because the truth is the world's getting a lot richer in general.

So yeah, there's a lot of people are going to have to sort that out. >> Yeah, the work burner went too high. And the a lot of the reason I've been thinking about this stuff more is over the summer I remember I went like straight from can to New York to Toronto to some event in South Carolina and then came back and then I went like straight into the meta report. And so even when I was home, I was still kind of we're we're working pretty late on that. >> And my husband was like, "All right, this something's got to give >> too much." Yeah. >> So when you hit that limit, you you know, you know, you've hit that limit.

Like even when people around you who have been very supportive partners through it all are like, "Hey, this is this is not it." Then and and so then, you know, you pull back and and now I'm wondering like, "Do I want to eventually be part-time?" Uh >> yeah, >> but I I don't know. Like I I don't know. I that that's where it's >> I I think I And I bet I bet a bunch of your listeners struggle with this is like >> Oh, sure. >> You don't want to uh like that sounds great in theory, but then you have to accept giving up some some control >> over Yeah. >> over these situations.

Like you pull back and you go part-time, you have less influence out over the outcome. >> Yeah. >> And that also doesn't sound good. So, I'm in it in terms of of trying to figure out, you know, if I if I could design my perfect life, what would it be and what changes? And I don't have any answers. >> Yeah. You have heard me talk about more staffing for a long time on this podcast. Very trusted friend company in the Philippines that helps connect you to incredible Filipino talent.

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What I mean is like one of the things that orients my answers to those specific questions is that I have like a pretty strong sense of broader purpose. like, you know, I've talked about I'm pretty religious. Um, and and so like that's like a that's like a part of the way I try to answer some of those questions is they they sort of u they're branches off that tree for me. Um, and so and I I also think it's always honest in a conversation like this to tell people where I'm coming from here.

Um, as and Mike Mike Beckham is too who we referenced earlier. So whether it's that or something else, do you have anything that sort of helps you helps you think through like the purpose of work, marriage, kids, all of those things in a broader sense than any of the specifics? >> No. And in and that I think that's part of the reason I'm struggling is have you read the five types of wealth? >> Uh heard I've only heard it summarized, but um I I have not read it and I would love for you to to lay it out. the the quick hit is is like he's he's like an investment banker in his mid20s and and he's working in the west coast and his family's on the east coast and he realizes like he did the math and realized like if he kept working like this he would only see his family like 10 or 15 more times before they die like his parents >> and so it totally changed his his outlook in terms of there's more than just financial wealth that's one type in terms of the five it's like also time and like would you trade places with Warren Buffett like no because he's in his 90s.

And so there's like also this like be like having a wealth of time in terms of the your whole life ahead of you. So there's like time wealth >> that's insightful >> social wealth. We talked about this in terms of relationships and and I feel like pretty healthy pretty wealthy there. And then mental wealth which is this is the the bigger purpose. And then what's the last oh physical and and physical I'm fine there too.

So it's >> it's that the mental wealth is this idea of like feeling connected to something bigger than yourself, having a broader purpose >> in the community and and at large. And like >> I just don't have that. Like I did the test because they gave you a test to answer like how you're doing in each of those dimensions. >> And like the mental wealth piece was was very low. like I'm not very religious and like when you and Mike were talking about this it's like >> oh yeah like >> the I think the fulfillment you feel there is like a very noticeable void in my life and >> it's it's we we were we were joking a bit but like yeah I I don't know if we want to go there. >> Go for it.

Go for it. I think I think you're not alone. There's no way you're limitless. I think this is the thing. The reason I express my position on this is because I know other people are like me and other people are not like me and they're going to want to come to some conclusions here. I think your voice, your experience counts. So, yeah, you could there's no way you're going to be only speaking for Olivia here. There's gonna be other people who relate to your your perspective. >> Yeah.

I I I feel like um sometimes I I feel like it's it's akin to like presidential candidates like we should have a better option when it comes to religion. And and I what I mean by that is I do see like all of the ways in which it is great on a micro level. Like I see the ways in which people around me are are are just doing so much good in the community and have lived like very good, very fulfilling, pure lives. But when you like zoom out on the macro level, >> that's where I start to struggle more with the idea of religion and it's like >> yeah, >> you you do start to wonder like if you think about it too much like has religion done more harm than good uh over the years and like I'm and I know like >> if my parents heard me say that they would kill me like you know but I just I feel like they that there there should there should be a better option. uh something that that feels like that I could buy into it and and separate it from all of the scandal. >> Yeah.

The first thing I'd say is that feels like a really reasonable question to me. It's like if the net effect this this is very much incre incrementality way of looking at the problem, which I appreciate. Um if the net effect is uh is marginal negative, you know, uh marginal marginally bad, right? Uh uh yeah, I guess I'm trying to avoid the word incremental, but I should just say if it's if the incremental contribution of religion is bad um taken at the largest level, then something is wrong.

I think I think you're right. Um so uh so I think it's a pretty reasonable question. Um the I think my question back to you would be what when you say there should be a better option, what are you looking for? What describe that option? >> I want a community that it's it's funny. And I was talking to somebody who was thinking about starting a company around this like a community placed uh that's not a country club and that's not a church you know and like something where you have shared beliefs, shared ideals, but I can disassociate that from like it all of the conflict if you will that religion has caused you know and and and like >> and something that I can more easily buy into is reality, you know, like I can believe that that that that there's a there there versus kind of having to suspend disbelief in a lot of ways.

What is what I feel like I'm doing sometimes. >> Yeah. So your objections are both moral and ontological like in the sense that like you you look at it and say like I I'm not sure the total outcome the total contribution of religion has been good first of all and secondly you're not sure it's true even if it was good. Uh, right. Like which which like you could sort of I mean imagine a theoretical religion where you were like oh they're doing all this good in the world but they believe in a flying spaghetti monster and it's not true you know that would also be problematic at the same time you know. >> Yeah.

Yeah. But but one one is more of an issue than the other. I feel like the >> I could buy into it if I felt like it was doing good. >> Yeah. >> Net positive net positive contribution to society. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think Yeah. Okay. That I like that. I mean I think yeah I think there's a lot here but the um you yeah they're great questions is uh have you like tried to explore this? Have you gone across and like are you like a philosophy reader?

Are you a uh are do you go read Buddhists? Do you you know anything like that? >> Yes. Way back when I you know when I was in college? >> Sure. >> You know it hasn't it hasn't come up as much lately. This to your point I don't I don't read a lot of books these days. >> Yeah. But yes, like majored in English in uh English lit in college and read a lot of stuff. I didn't know that. That's awesome. >> Studied. So it is funny that the friend I mentioned like he was the the insight was like the the the world is becoming more secular than ever and there a lot of people similar to me don't feel connected to the community.

And what if there was a community that you could be a part of both online and in person? And we shared all these like, you know, these these beliefs and and and morals and and what that would have manifested in was basically like a cult. Like he like there there is no business there, right? Like what is the business idea? like you end up having to kind of like write the manifesto of like what does what what are the beliefs and what are the shared ideals and and shared principles and then it kind of becomes its own new thing and >> and like maybe there is one like out like maybe maybe that is like a modern >> religion >> uh that I just don't know about but >> you're sort you're sort of describing unitarians I think a little bit where >> that's what I was thinking is like maybe that's yeah that that that is like it's the closest I think that uh I've seen to to what he was kind of describing in principle >> the challenges that I see for most unarians I have a friend down the street who's unarian he was descri he he was saying like he knows that I go to church and he was sort of asking me like how come our what do you think about like are people come new coming to your church or not you know and I I was like I was the challenge that I see is um is that like people don't stay motivated around it for for very long because they the the things they're united on are not strong enough to keep a community together typically This is my experience.

So I I don't know. I haven't known a lot of Unitarians and somebody's unarian. I'd love for you to reach out and tell me um your experience about that because it's it's probably different than what I exactly understand. But that that's been is that like there's sort of not enough shared belief to like sort of sort of meld a community together even though much more is rooted around some shared moral foundations versus not.

But there I think that one of the challenges is that like there end up being all kinds of moral situations that end up dividing people along those things that people don't have a real clear way to uh to adjudicate uh without some sort of more central committed ontology. So we're getting real nerdy real fast here. But um that that ends up creating a creating a sort of a different problem. Now just I mean churches divide over things all the time too, Christian churches.

So there's it's not like if that problem is completely solved either. But I think uh that's why there's such a thing as a doctrinal statement in a church is like is like and and I'm sure that's true outside of Christian churches too like just having some things that we say we definitely agree on these things and to be part of this community. You have to be committed to these things. Um, and you can be a wonderful human who people like, but you can't be like a true member of this community if you aren't ready to sign on to these because that's we have to have something to keep us together, you know?

And that's hard to do if if you're expressing what you're expressing to me, which is like there's some moral things I believe, but I'm not sure on the central ontological things, you know? Okay. Can I feed back to you a couple things that I hear in this conversation from you and then you can respond to them? >> Yes. >> Okay. Number one, I one thing I hear is you saying there's some things that you are fairly clear about.

Like you you have a very strong sense that more money won't make you any happier in a clear way. That's interesting. I mean, you're so clear about that. And I think some people sort of would say that's true for themselves, but actually it's kind of the right answer. Like everybody knows you're supposed to say like, "Oh, I have enough." But I I don't hear that with you. I hear like real conviction that like you're like, "No, I have enough.

Like my husband and I, we don't really need more." So that I think that's really interesting. I hear you saying you're quite certain you don't have like central purpose. That's a real problem. Like you you you were able to um express that with a lot of clarity, which is like I scored very low on the mental wealth uh test. >> Um so yeah. And then and then I hear you saying you also have a vague sense of guilt and uncertainty as well around like not being a present enough mom, feeling like you're supposed to be more present with your kids, but also like you like work and there's something really good about that and you like house a lot and you and all those things.

And so there's like this weird jumble of uncertainties alongside these couple of certainties which is like not enough purpose, don't need more money, uncertain about sort of how some of this middle part works out but some level of guilt in there. Um, does that describe your situation reasonably? >> Nailed it. Is this Can we make this like a quiz funnel now? >> Like, drop drop me into the But yeah. No, you nailed it. >> Yeah.

Okay. Yeah. No, I do need something to sell you now to solve this for sure. Yeah. >> Um, no. Okay. Okay. Then here's my answer. Here's here's what I think. My answer is that you you have to solve the purpose thing. And that's probably not going to be done quickly. Like I think that's like uh I think if you can do that, you'll answer a lot of other questions. But it feels like Oh, and another thing, by the way, you've said in here is that there's some moral things that you believe feel strongly about.

And um I think that's I think a lot of people feel that way. They have a sense of some right and wrong in the world. That's good. That's my take. I think you're you're not going to be able to resolve the specific questions. I think you could probably listen to other people's wisdom and get somewhere on them like, okay, maybe I can give some money away like, you know, that's what Mike said was good or like and maybe do that in a way that's a little more stretching than I would have if I hadn't heard that Mike gave away $19 million, you know.

U but you know, there's something like that. or like, "Oh, I my husband says like I'm I wasn't present enough." That's great. That's why great partners are is they give you honest feedback and don't let resentments build up. And so that's awesome that you had that conversation with him. And so you can do that and try and be more present. But while you do those things in the day-to-day, I feel like I feel like that's the answer.

I feel like you have to chase down the purpose thing, you know? >> Do I feel like you and I are probably more similar than me and Mike? Like also like the this wealth we're speaking of is like totally hyp like theoretical equity, but >> Yeah. Like I think you and I probably make enough. Like do you do you give back in a in a big way? >> Uh okay. >> I always feel like well I I've just always felt like I'm not there yet in terms of like I'm like well what if something happened, you know, like what if what if what if we I have a health issue and like we need like you know some >> uh Yeah.

So I'm I'm curious. >> Yeah. My just I think by any reasonable standard uh my wife and I give away a lot a lot of money. Yeah. I I think I I won't say super explicitly how much, but we give Yeah, we give we give pretty aggressively, I would say. Um, we save as well. And also, I think most people are either by nature savers or spenders as like they have an instinct to go one way or the other when they get money. And both my wife and I are much more savers than spenders.

My wife is also like uh from a a strongly evangelical Christian town in the Midwest and she's half half Norwegian and half Swedish. So, like that makes her like riskaverse and ready for winter all the time, you know? Um so um so yeah so yeah we give a lot of money away um and yeah why you ask >> no it's it's just it's you if you don't have a lot if I'm not very liquid >> and so that's where I'm like uh I don't know what what what is appropriate versus what is kind of like irresponsible in terms of of savings. >> Uh so >> yeah that's it's interesting. >> Well I think I think you should try I think you should find something give a little more than you.

I I think generosity in my experience is very much like almost everything else I've ever done, which is that I'm not that good at it at first. And so like you just take a I bet there's five grand you could give somewhere and not really feel it and it would be more than you normally give is my guess. I don't know to something you felt good about and you could sort of feel out like >> well what that what was that like before you try and give away 500 grand, you know? >> Yep. >> Before you get to Mike's 19 million.

So, >> uh, do you do you mind you we can we can cut this, but like where do you I don't mind at all. >> Where do you give? >> I'm so happy to talk about it. Um, so we give to our church as a baseline thing. Um, we give to a couple of other organizations that are specifically around religious belief stuff. So that would be more like um what you might consider like uh missions type work. Um I I think there's downstream benefits to that on a humanitarian level as well.

But our actual main giving partner that we have like supported for a long time is called uh Heartline Haiti. They're an organization that has both of my wife's uh births were really rough. Um so uh in a whole bunch of ways that we don't totally need to get into but they were just really rough on her body even beyond the normalies of birth birth. And we had amazing medical care and uh and so there's this really cool organization in Haiti that has sort of built up a bunch of stuff for women in Haiti giving birth.

It's like a maternity center so that they can have access to like better health care. Uh and Haiti is is just a it's intractably difficult country. Like you look around the world and everybody's GDP is up and to the right in some way or another and un unless they have oppressive governments. And Haiti is just flat for forever. It's just it's just awful. And so this organization we really like. They give they do a bunch of different stuff uh where they they have that maternity center but then they also have like educational stuff.

They have a bakery for job provision. They do go visit people in prison. and like they do all kinds of really cool stuff and we've come to really appreciate and trust them and so it's it's sort of the main place we give outside of as church and some of that stuff. >> Yeah, I like that you're you're you give on like the micro level and the macro level almost. It's like sometimes I'm like you know like the >> and and we give back in the the local community and I struggled.

I I I love what you found. It's like at the macro level like how do you know your your money is going to good use? I I found a site like um >> maybe like 10 years ago, maybe less, but uh the life you can save, which like tells you like where your money can go the furthest >> if you and and it's some some really interesting >> places. And so I've used that before, but you you always like I'm sure you you agree it's like >> it's hard to know whether when you give it that macro level if it's if it's if it's if it's in the right hands.

Yeah, it's and I I've this is one of those things I think is like a skill with generosity that we that I don't um I don't know how to do this yet, which is like I don't really know how to figure out how to optimize it. Like there's a question honestly what I what I always do with this is I ask Mike because he's just given away so much money. Uh like well like so should I give more to less places? Should I give less to more places so they aren't dependent on me?

Uh like and I we've kind of come to a mix of different things there. Um, but one of the big challenges for me and my wife has been sort of selecting like Heartland is by far the place that we're the most committed to because so far as we can tell they're doing great work. We're an important giver with them as far as they told us. Um, like and it just feels like I don't know how those people are going to survive without somebody giving to them.

So, it's something like that. And that has I I would say over time it has been a more joyful thing cuz the other thing is I expected when I first cut them the biggest check I ever gave to somebody like when I first did that I was I was expecting to be like shot through with the joy of giving the money away, you know? That was like what people that was like what with generosity is supposed to feel so good, you know? And it just wasn't the case.

Like I just was like I don't know. I just gave that money away. It's from people I've never met. I I can't go meet them. It's like not a good idea to go to Haiti right now. like I would like to go at some point but I can't right now. So yeah, it's just tricky. We uh I don't know. I've thought about a bunch of other things here. We we have I have a bunch of employees in the Philippines. I've thought about trying to find some really good Philippines charities just because I'm tied to the Philippines in other ways. >> Yeah.

Hey, I listen to your ad reads more staffing. >> Yeah, shout out. >> Check out more staffing. >> That was a free one. That's great. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Interesting. Yeah. I mean, I I've been fortunate enough to get set up with an exec coach, and it's funny like the the place we often land is like it's much deeper and like I think this is where you're you're going with it, too, is like you do need to work on the purpose piece.

Like this isn't just this is not a surface level kind of like exploration. It's it's really does require some some deeper meaning conversations. And I'm like, not I haven't been been open and willing to go there >> recently. But it's it's like, yeah, well, if you it's like everything in life, like if you want things to change, you have to put in the work. >> Hey, quick note. If you're looking to do some end of the year giving for tax purposes, make your tax burn a little bit lower.

A lot of people are giving in December specifically. And this episode is coming out in December. So, go check out Heartline Haiti. Um, Heartline is a really cool organization that my wife and I have been giving to for a long time. So, go to heartlinehy.org. They have stuck with people in a really dark, really difficult time. If you don't know, Hades basically under gang control right now, but Heartline is still operating with women and children in school and like I said, giving birth, all those kinds of things, sticking with people through a really difficult time.

So, if you want to support an organization that, as far as I can tell, is doing really awesome work, go to heartlinehy.org and check it out. Just thought I'd drop it in there since Olivia brought it up and people would be giving this time of year. Thanks, Olivia. This has been awesome. So, do you have one more minute to to just give people who made it through this conversation one little bonus incrementality thing? >> We should have started with that.

I feel like it maybe >> so so people would listen. >> Yeah. Nobody's going to hear this. We I was I recorded on the operators podcast over the summer and it two hours talking about data and I listened to it. >> We're joking that there were like 14 people listening by the end. So that's probably we're probably less than 14 at this point. >> No chance. I listen to that whole thing and I'll tell you I don't listen to business podcasts but I listen to you Olivia on the podcast talking for two hours about incrementality and meta ads I was like I'm tuned in.

So yeah >> well we had Mike there so we we were lucky but uh what is the question like what what have we been seeing? >> Yeah. Yeah. What what's a just give give people a spicy something. We just pass past Black Friday. Like what's the most interesting little incrementality nugget you can give us for people who made it this far? >> Yep. Taylor's gonna love this. We'll have to clip it and send it to him. But we, you know, I I I have to be careful these days because I don't want to speak too much in anecdotes, like unless we've really dug in and and I have like very clear evidence uh of a trend.

Like I don't really talk about this stuff, but I've seen enough tests, I think, over the past week or two to be able to confidently say that I came into to house really with the hypothesis that spend over a moment like Black Friday, Cyber Monday is probably less incremental than you think because this is when everybody's coming in to buy. And we're seeing a couple of interesting trends that disprove that that theory, which is that the tests that are actually live and running right now uh like through Black Friday, Cyber Monday are looking pretty good.

And then even more interesting and in there's there's like just so much to unpack here. tests that ended before Black Friday, Cyber Monday, but that have a post treatment window on right now uh that that runs through post uh Black Friday, Cyber Monday are showing like a huge g a huge lift. So, like let's say you ran a test from October 1st to November 15th, six week test. You turn off the test. You see your results, you're not impressed.

We've just been following those cohorts for, you know, the the subsequent three weeks, and we're seeing huge delta between treatment and control, which means that media that you were investing in October that looked horrible >> is actually doing something, and it paid off for you, you know, through the the sale period. And so it's it's really tricky in terms of what to do with that because we're seeing some tests that didn't look so hot in the leadup and now we're looking at the post treatment window and we're like, "Oh, this is this is good." Like maybe we should have been pouring more money here.

You guys should do a you should do a study release on this aggregating that kind of data in like the middle end of summer next year because this has been actually like the first thing I ever really published media wise that was good or that was like real was like a write up I did when I was a CTC as a strategist like a bunch of years ago and it was basically it was back in the old days when Facebook ads would show you one day click versus 28 day click um and it was and the and the purchase was recorded on the day of the click not on the day of the purchase unlike now and so it was like it wasn't an increment mality study, but it was it would show you your delayed attribution and you could actually then measure different periods by just looking at the one day versus 7-day versus 20-day click windows, which which days created the largest sort of delayed purchase behavior relative to others.

And the thing we found over and over was that like people who clicked in like the early November period had a much higher delayed purchase rate than what you got the entire rest of the year for the very obvious reason that people wait till Black Friday to buy. And it's like this is one of those tests that actually confirms something that I think everybody knows intuitively, which is that like your your like people are going to wait to buy until Black Friday and people make their lists, all that kind of stuff.

But seeing it actually in the data is really good. And I I would love to know like how big those lifts are and some of that because it's just like it's very clearly the case that it's happened. But I have also actually worked with a brand that overspent anticipating more of it and that actually got themselves into trouble on Black Friday doing. So yeah, it's a tricky line to walk, but I'm very interested in that test because I think it confirms things that I've seen in the past. but done much less scientifically. >> Yeah.

Well, it's it'll be nice to attach some data like everybody kind of it's kind of like YouTube, right? We like know that it's happening, but it's really it's it's hard to have the confidence to continue spending when you're not sure. And so, we're going to report on like how much lift happened at the midpoint, the final, and post treatment window. And we're going to show like share of lift across this period for tests that have been running in Q4. >> And we're working on that data.

So, maybe by the time this comes out, we'll actually have it. I'm more surprised though by the lift through Black Friday, Cyber Monday with the ad spend that's happen. Taylor Taylor was like, why would you be surprised by this? And I'm like, well, at least I'm thinking of myself as a consumer. I already know what I'm going to buy and I'm just going and I'm getting these things on sale. Like for me, there like not a lot of moments where I'm being influenced like on that Friday or on that Monday to buy something that I wasn't already going to buy.

So I that's been surprising to me just from a consumer standpoint that that you can deliver ads through that weekend and still influence behavior that that was not anyway. >> I I would have had that same hypothesis that people are overspending on the weekend and and under spending in the leadup. That's that would have been my hypothesis, too. So I'm interested to hear that you're saying like nope, it's actually >> both.

We're spending in the leadup and they're under spending. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> The weekend. So >> yeah. All right. Um Olivia, thanks for diving into these things with me. I appreciate this. It takes some courage to come and have the conversation, say some things out loud you're saying. Um, and uh, and yeah, I just really appreciate it. I think I think a lot of people are actually trying to sort through a lot of these questions and so that's why I was like when you DM' me, I was like, "Okay, you got to come on the podcast and talk about it with me because uh, so yeah, I I appreciate it.

I think it's a great conversation." >> Thanks, Andrew. Yeah, thanks for the uh, the the 60 minute therapy session. I free free therapy. I'll I'll take it any day of the week. Yeah, this is this is >> I'd like to repeat that I am not a therapist and you you ought not to have received this that way. So, yeah. All right. Thanks. >> All right. Thanks. >> Gigantic huge thanks to Olivia for doing that episode getting personal and thoughtful in all these ways.

I hope you liked it as much as I did. If you want to work with House, you know, you heard those incrementality results at the end there and get that kind of thinking applied to your business, go to house.io, hus.io. You can also follow Olivia on X, Olivia A Corey, Corey with a K. The link for that is in the show notes. Um, so you can go check that out there. And I would love your feedback on this episode. Podcast at ajfgrowth.com is the place to email me to tell me any of your thoughts or the comments would be great as well.

I check all of them. Read all of them. I'd love to know if you like this episode, if you like this kind of content, if you have more interest in me doing more of this kind of stuff. It's my favorite kind of conversation to have to be honest with you. So, I'm very glad to do it and I would love to hear what you think as well if you made it through it. And then uh also go to ajfgrowth.com to see everything that I'm doing.

Take an intake, fill out an intake form and tell us if maybe it would be a good fit. Get on a call, see if I can help your business uh as we start to expand a little bit more into next year. Fill out the form on the website. Let me know. Big thanks to Rich Panel. Big thanks to More Staffing for sponsoring this episode. Great sponsors who I love working with. Definitely go check them out. Again, link for both those are in the notes as well.

I will talk to you next time with a bunch of good guests. I have so many good guests coming up. Who do I have? Oh, Jess Bachmann coming back very soon to talk creative. That's going to be awesome. Got an episode with Patrick Kadoo as always every month to talk about what we are doing. Curtis Matskco from Portland Leatherg Goods uh is coming back, CEO there to talk coming for the first time to talk about how they are planning out things.

So, bunch of stuff. Subscribe wherever you're watching or listening. You're going to like it. You're not going to want to miss it. Talk to you soon.