Crypto Alt Season Is About to Explode! | Blockworks' Jason Yanowitz transcript

The Fed hiked. The 10-year went through 5%. The dollar had its best month since June. And Bitcoin is up 6% in September. Bitcoin should not be up right now. That's Jason Yenowitz, co-founder of Blockworks, one of crypto's biggest data and research firms. He runs a team of almost 100 people. And this year, they bought Mazzari. >> People said, "Look, you can own Bitcoin, maybe you can own some Ethereum, maybe Salana, the majors, but I'm never touching any of these altcoins.

I actually think this is the the best time in history to be buying tokens. For the first time in history, these tokens actually do something. They're actually companies that create real revenue and make real money. He walks me through the data behind why Bitcoin is up. A slide he's never shared publicly and the two tokens he's eyeing right now and altcoins he didn't hedge. >> Will we have an alt market? 100%. 100% we'll have an alt market because but first the four tokens he's been holding and the two that have absolutely crushed it.

Guys, this is a great interview. You're going to watch the entire thing. I promise you'll get tons of value from it. And again, remember, nothing in this video is financial advice. It's for educational purposes only. Without further ado, let's bring Jason up to the stage. Jason, welcome to the channel, man. It's great to have you here. Congratulations on the acquisition of Mazari. It's a huge deal, >> my friend. Good to be here.

Yeah, we are uh we are excited. So, we feel good. >> Cool. We'll get into all that because I think it's super interesting from a data perspective, from a crypto perspective, how also we are growing up as a as an industry. Um but I want to get into first something you talked about over the summer that you have you have four tokens and uh basically that's you know real revenue beats narrative and you know I think historically uh all altcoins have always been kind of narrative.

Not not all as of recently, maybe the past couple years, but like mostly before has all been narrative. So, uh so what were the four and um have you added any since then? >> Uh yeah, the tokens that I held probably back in the summer that you were referencing were Bitcoin, Salana, Hyperlquid, and Zcash. So, uh I think I mean they've they've done quite well. I think Hyperlquid and Zcash are two of the best performing assets.

The whole thesis that I have right now is that um tokens first off tokens are investable assets and we have to say that out loud because I think a lot of people at least in the last 18 months said is this even an investable asset class? Are tokens even something that will ever go up again? I think there was a lot of fear, uncertainty and doubt in these tokens and people said look you can own Bitcoin maybe you can own some Ethereum. maybe Salana, the majors, but I'm never touching any of these altcoins.

And I would um I actually think this is the the best time in history to be buying tokens. I think this is the if you look back at the last decade, right? So we that tokens kind of emerged with Ethereum in 2015, right? That's kind of like and then you get smart contracts which then let you build applications on top of the blockchain. So we get all these tokens and for the first time in history, these tokens actually do something.

They're actually companies that create real revenue and make real money. And um and so that's why I'm I'm very bullish. I've added a fifth token which is uh Morpho. Um so I own I own Morpho. Morpho is a fantastic business. And I'm looking at a six. I'm looking at buying Pump Fund, though I haven't bought Pump Fund yet, but I'm I'm I like their business. I'm also looking at a company called Backpack. And again, these are >> I don't think of these as tokens.

I think of these as amazing startups that are growing very quickly. Just like I would make an angel investment or I would buy Meta Stock or Nvidia or Apple or whatever. I I I buy a token. It's a token is um this idea of a token is as this foreign kind of cryptonative cipher punk thing I think is starting to go away and we're entering the new phase of crypto, >> right? But when you talk about things like uh Morpho and Pump Fund, uh they both have raised capital from VCs um quite a bit and those were on the equity side of the business.

They I don't Yeah, I guess Morpho has a token too, right? So they both have tokens. Um so how do you look at that? Right? Because I when you're saying adding tokens, you're I'm guessing you're not saying you're talking to the founders and getting an equity investment to that, right? So you're looking at acquiring tokens. So >> yeah, I think one of the biggest things that people who are maybe outside of the industry h haven't realized has happened is that you you used to have this um basically tokens were entirely worthless because they had no claim on the cash flow and they had no governance rights.

So what is what is a stock, right? A a stock is a claim on cash flow or the ability to participate in governance. Um that that's really all it is. And so why do people buy a stock? Oftentimes not actually for one of those two things. Right? When I buy Meta stock, I'm not trying to participate in Meta's governance or get a claim on Meta's cash flow. I think that the price of Meta will go up because the company will continue going up.

Uh there is only one thing that I can bet on though if I want to bet on Meta or Apple, which is their stock. So the problem that existed in crypto is that there were two forms, two ways to bet on a company. So what you're referencing is Morpho had equity and Morpho had a token. So as an as an investor it's very confusing to say uh should which one should I bet on. What's happened over the last year is that many of the best founders in crypto, right, this could be Athena, it could be pump, it could be Morpho, they they have said our equity, we are dis almost disbanding our equity and we are driving 100% of the value of this company or protocol or application into the token and unless you are extremely deep into this industry, you don't know that that has existed.

And so there's actually an amazing amount of alpha and um an edge right now to being in crypto. And that edge will eventually get there's a there's a total rerating. We're recording this on September 30th, so I don't know when it'll go live. There's an there's a massive rerating of crypto tokens right now into like many of these tokens. Unis swap's up 170% in the last 90 days, right? Near is up 175% in the last 90 days. there's a massive rerating because people don't people are just realizing that the hard work of these founders is actually now and these companies is actually now going into the tokens and um yeah I actually still think it's really early days for this >> so you've been doing the research you're you're making a consideration in Morpho and Punk for example um let's go into a little bit let's go into the audience like how does Jason think about this so you said that Morpho has like disbanded the equity side of the business.

Does that mean that almost all value acrruel is it 90%, is it 99%, is 100%. Um, you know, what are they doing? >> It's it's 100%. It's 100%. It's the the founder is no is saying our equity is not something that you need to invest in every you are buying if you want to bank make a bet on Morpho, you buy the Morpho token. And so I think uh many of the best companies in crypto are starting to do that. And so when I make when I'm looking at these things like I will go look at um like if I can share my screen quickly. >> Go for it. >> Um >> it's it's it's so it's interesting.

Sorry to interrupt but like I just want to throw something out there like what you're just what you just described is is kind of like I mean when you launch a token you're you're public you're publicly traded already, right? So, like cuz I think that naturally a question would come to someone's mind then like okay well then Morpho never goes public from a company perspective and like most likely not unless like they're they're holding the Treasury holds a ton of Morpho and then like that's what their balance sheet would ever represent, right?

Or is it >> you're spot on. Morpho will never go public. >> Yeah. >> Actually, sorry I changed my wording there. Morpho already is public. Already is public. So the trend in in in capital markets today is actually not going public. Um we are going like uh SpaceX went public at over a trillion dollars. Stripe in any time in history stripe should have been a public company but they're not today because the private to public market uh transition is fundamentally broken today.

And actually tokens are one of the things bringing value acrruel back to early stage investors and back to the early use. It's it's kind of opening up the series A and series B markets again. And it's it's actually really exciting for that reason. So if I'm looking at something like Pump like what I will do is I mean look look at these crazy numbers. So Pump is averaging right the last four quarters 127 million of revenue, 107 million of revenue, 122 million of revenue and 90 million of revenue.

Right? So if we if we if we look at that on an annual scale. So last year they did $660 million of revenue. If we jump over here we can see the the market cap of this thing is 2.7 billion, right? fully diluted. It's $4.8 billion. And so if you look at what is starting to happen, this is the rerating that I'm talking about, right? We really at at like when it was trading at like down here, this was um you know, this was this was massively underpriced.

I still think it's probably I mean I still think it's probably underpriced. Um and I wanted to share Pump with your audience because I'm not shilling my bag. I don't own Pump yet. This is me currently walking myself in. This is my investment thesis. I don't want to share something that I already own. Um, >> so, >> so, so, okay. So, uh, cool. Like, so in the stock market, we often talk, uh, you know, folks often talk about like PE ratios and they talk about what do tech stocks trade at from a, you know, earnings perspective.

Um, do you like apologize the I'm traveling my monitor is like 8 inches that I'm looking at this right now and I can't really see but like is there a PE ratio or like is there some data here that helps us like uh kind of see or to the kind of like person who just wants to take a glance and see something similar to that? >> Yeah, I mean I think the I think the way to think about this is basically the I mean it's I don't think we're I don't think there's anything new about capital markets here.

It's every we're crypto is speedrunning the history of finance and so like what is the what is the thing to look at? I think the thing to look at is to go back here and to look at the financials and compare the revenue or or the profit by the way or the right we can show you the net c the net cash flow down here. So you can look at the net cash flow of pump. You can say, you know, 600 uh 600 million in swap fees, right? 200 spent 225 million in buybacks.

And you can look at the you compare the market cap to the revenue just like I would look at, >> you know, the market like if if block works goes and raises money. Someone will say, "What's your ARR?" And I'll I'll put a number on it and they'll say, "Great. Data companies usually trade, you know, 15 times revenue. All right, your revenue is, you know, $50 million. then your valuation is 750 million. I think I think that these crypto markets are actually walking into a very similar place where they will trade on fundamentals for the first time ever which is which is amazing for the industry.

Like it is it's it's amaz it's an amazing trend for the industry. Yeah, I've been talking about this whole issue with equity versus tokens for a very very very long time. And uh and I yeah, I think there's there's I mean I don't even know if if there's a difference actually maybe you can help maybe we could do this like mental exercise together right now. Um something that I kind of propose as a thesis coming up now with the SEC and the CFTC giving the kind of clarity that it is uh like startups might launch a tokenized equity that also acts as like the same governance utility token in the ecosystem where like it is the same thing.

It is like it is a security in the fact that like maybe it's it's centralized control company that's that is issuing buyback or doing buybacks or whatever. um but also has like utility within the ecos system, staking, payment, whatever the case may be, plus governance potentially. Uh but just like getting rid of that divide of of just having like the utility token within it, but that's also represents the like equity in the company and both things are very closely correlated.

I don't know if something like hyperlquid would be that exact same ideology or if it's a little bit if it takes it one step in a different direction when we talk about it being a tokenized security or equity. Yeah, I mean um let me let me share something with you actually which is essentially the block works thesis um which I've never really shared this publicly if that's if that's okay. I've actually >> Yeah, I've actually never shared this uh this slide here but um look why is token investing hard?

There are what we are talking about is equity versus token. So there's four reasons right? We are talking about one of the four. There's this equity versus token. So revenue can flow to the company's equity instead of the token. There's three other reasons that uh token investing is really hard. One is there's no disclosures. Two is there's these huge supply unlocks because it was such a um because of zero interest rates.

We had an excess of capital flow into venture >> when the the you know really society was probably in stagflation kind of with not I mean like just building enterprise SAS for 15 years like wasn't really moving society forward. So there's too much money went into venture um which then too much money went into building the same thing in crypto in in crypto with a lot of these like L1s and L2s and stuff like that. So there's these huge supply unlock uh unlocks that are coming where it dumps on retail.

And then the fourth is value capture like a lot of the tokens had no claim on the revenue that they created. So what we are talking about here is the equity versus the token. But there's all these other issues and this is why like I actually don't want to talk too much about what Blockworks is building because it's probably less interesting for your audience. But that's one of the many issues that we're solving is that token buyers historically have not known what they own.

If you look at stocks like I don't know if you saw Aura Ring filed its S1. So like you're a stock and you go public you have to file an S1 uh quarterly like when you do reporting right you do you file a 10K or 10Q. If you are an insider and you sell you file a form four. If you want to compare and look at all this stuff you can just pull up Edgar online which is free. None of that exists in tokens. None of that. And so that's uh there's there's today 500 million 500 tokens over 100 million in market cap.

That is a huge issue that you can't do any of this. So I think I don't I I know we're talking about this problem right here of equity versus token. I would say there are three other big problems and actually supply unlocks. I know people don't like DATs. you remember like all these DATs last year like that were going >> the DATs actually did solve a problem of supply unlocks >> which is that they removed a lot of the supply unlocks from the market um which is which is not the worst thing and so I actually think some of these DATs I think the number one DAT for each of the hot tokens will actually do quite well um and I don't think DATs are dead and then I think disclosures is being fixed by the SEC and then I think value capture is similar to the equity verse token conversation.

So, >> right. Cool. Yeah. No, I I do think that it's interesting what Blog Works is doing and we'll get back into it just a little bit, but because I think that the like, you know, there's a lot of hunger out there for people to try to be able to understand like what is it that we should be looking at? How do I do my research? like what like what you know and and that that kind of gets into the next question I was going to ask you is like um let's get into uh let's get into for a second this kind of thing of narrative um versus kind of fundamentals right and uh like privacy seems to be one of the best performing assets uh or or asset classes recently at least Zcash did right but Zcash has no real business model no new re no real revenue I I guess one could say the business model is just like the privacy version of Bitcoin but like there's also Monero um which arguably maybe has better uh encryption.

I don't know. But um so I'm curious to get your thoughts on like moving forward narrative versus fundamentals and well let's just start there. I guess >> I think that all capital markets today move on narratives. So I think that like like why is SpaceX the company that it is? Not because of their revenue. Their revenue is amazing, but it's because Elon in their S1 put we are going to >> colonize Mars and we are going to like the TAM is the world basically as he put it.

So like even the biggest companies in the world today are moving on a narrative. Um Nvidia, Meta like I I think that actually as a company builder um kind of gone are the days of your stock moving because operationally you are excellent. I think that is very important. That is a prerequisite. You have to be operationally excellent. You also have to be an excellent storyteller today. And that is a new thing because of social media that exists.

Like if you look at how companies used to do investor relations, right? It used to be like here is here's our quarterly report market. Here's our quarterly report. Maybe I'll go on CNBC, but I will just do a a Zoom call with my institutional investors. I'll get on with Janice Henderson and and Fidelity and uh Tro Price and tell them why like last quarter was good and next quarter is going to be better. Now you've got Robin Hood streaming to all their retail investors about how their last quarter went.

And so you have a fundamental change in capital markets of storytelling. So the this is a roundabout way of answering your question, but uh I think that we are entering the period where fundamentals matter for crypto tokens for the first time in history. But uh storytelling and narrative will I think will always matter for not only crypto tokens but equities and all of capital markets as well. >> Yeah. >> So okay. So I'm curious to get like I guess when you when you took your position in Zcash uh what like had it ran a lot then?

Have people started talking about it then? And like cuz you have Zcash and Monero, right, which are like arguably two alternatives to Bitcoin with more privacy. um wondering like what what was it that that made you go into Zcash for example, not Monero? You want to know what really got me into Zcash was >> when Ro Connor was proposing a wealth tax on California on on uh founders in California >> and I don't know if you remember this but it was several months back it was um so okay so originally I got in but not in any sort of size and was by because like the kind of Salana crowd and Mert and those guys were tweeting about it a lot and I was like I'll get in cuz they're good guys and they're usually right about things.

And then um uh anyways, but that was like not in that was like not in real size. And then actually after Roana came out with this thing, I was like we are headed so I mean this is a funny thesis for a crypto token, but like I think that as a society we are headed for a place where a lot of the uh wealth in America just disagrees with what the government thinks and what better what are they going to want to do with their assets?

I think they're going to want to shield their assets and they're going to want to hide their assets. And uh Bitcoin no longer lets you do that. There's Bitcoin is not Bitcoin is a I mean the blockchain is amazing. It's why we have a data business, but it's fully transparent. It's fully legible to everybody. And I think that I thought that privacy would become private I actually so I have I have a thesis on privacy which is I don't think users everyone talks about privacy of um user data and like your your habits and your behaviors online.

It's like you know I I'm not going to let Instagram or Meta have my data. I don't think users care at all about that. I will I will happily feed Instinct and Meta and Claude and ChatgBT as much of my data as humanly possible. I will do that because I want those platforms to serve me better. But financially, I think that financial privacy is actually extremely underdised. So I I believe that so that so there there there in lies a trade, right?

If you think that private if you think that privacy is overdis privacy of user data is overd discussed privacy of financial data is underd discussed there in lies a trade and then the trade just becomes how do you execute that thesis and for me zcash was the best way to execute that kind of broader macro thesis. >> Okay. >> All right guys some quick housekeeping. I hope that you're enjoying this video so far. Some exciting news coming out of what we've been building.

So, first of all, we've got my website, kyleshassay.com, and we'll leave a link for all the stuff down in the description below. But there you can go find uh everything there, my portfolio, what I've been doing, who I am if you're not familiar. But most importantly for you guys, there's the deals page where all the affiliate links are there. And every single one of them has some sort of bonus. So, if you're thinking about using a new exchange or getting yourself a crypto debit card, like a cash card or VPN, whatever, it's all over there.

You're going to get deals and discounts on everything. If you go to kshasay.com/ccompass, you will also see what the compass is that I talk about on this show every single time. And lastly, guys, the data room. If you haven't seen the video on that that I made recently, I will leave a end screen at the end of this video as well for that and put the link in the description below. But the data room is where I put all of my institutional grade research.

Now, I must make a disclaimer. Past performance does not guarantee future performance. And again, the data room has three tiers in there. and that's where I go to put institutional grade research. More information at wop.com/thedatroom and the link in the description below. All right, guys, back to the video. Let's go. So, curious to get your thoughts uh where we are right now. I've talked to a lot of different people uh about kind of the market cycles.

Um you know, we you have people who think believe that a four-year cycle. It does seem like most people now believe that maybe that's not happening anymore because you know the bottom is already in. Uh I think I think quickly I'd like to get your take on that but then go into uh more about altcoins and I I do think you hinted earlier at the qu the answer to this question but like do you think that we're going to have a more robust and meaningful altcoin season than we did last bull run? >> Uh the answer is yes.

We can get into that in a second. I mean, let's just take let's take stock of where we're at, right? So, >> the Fed hiked the the Fed hiked, the 10-year went through 5%. The dollar had its best month since June, and Bitcoin is up 6% in September. Oh, and by the way, Clarity failed. >> Yep. And um a lot of the regulatory I mean clarity that we thought like Bitcoin should not be up today. Bitcoin should not be up right now.

It should like Bitcoin should we are where we are in the cycle. Everything says that Bitcoin should be down and Bitcoin is up and and why is Bitcoin up and I would actually go back to >> um let me sh I'm gonna share my screen one more time which is >> as much as much as you want >> uh money is so money is moving there are two huge trends money is moving on chain so uh st so stable coins outstanding are up 60x in the last 6 years monthly stable coin transfers are up 115x in In the last 6 years, monthly crypto card spend is up 60x in the last 2 years alone.

So money is moving onto public blockchains and markets are moving onto public blockchains. So prediction market volume is up, tokenized real world asset volume is up and tokenized stocks are up like madness, right? Sto tokenized stocks are the new stable coins in terms of the trend. Tokenized stocks are I mean just insane right now. There are >> you want you want to hear a crazy number? There are there were 130,000 wallets that held a tokenized stock in January.

So 130,000 wallets held a tokenized stock. Today it's 4.5 million. >> So we've gone from 130,000 in January to now 9 months later 4.5 million. So just explosive growth. So what's happening right now is just really simply the market has caught up with adoption. the market's completely caught up with adoption. And uh that gets into your next point which is like is this going to be an alt will we have an alt market? 100% 100% we'll have an alt market because but I wouldn't even call it an alt market.

We will have successful crypto companies whose value of their companies will go up and the value of their companies going up the the thing that will go up is called a token instead of being called shares in a company. Right? So I don't I actually don't even think about it as alt season anymore. I just think about it as there's going to be really really successful companies on the look at these numbers. These numbers are insane. the like these these are we're not talking about 3x growth.

We're talking about hundreds hundredsx growth. So some companies in here and in here are doing well. I say pick the companies in here and in here that are doing well. Some of them will be privately held and some of them will have tokens and that's a pretty good bet for the next two years. There's a the reason I laughed so hard was um like you just started showing me all this great data and a couple months ago you would a lot of like the in private groups and you know crypto Twitter sentiment people were thinking like would altcoins and ever come back are they dead forever blah blah blah.

Um one of my friends he's he's a brilliant guy his name's Emerson Spart he made this video anyone who is listening maybe I'll throw a link in the description below. It's just it's just fun to watch. It's called it's it's old. It's like I don't know 9 years old, but it's called the world's most overoptimistic TEDex talk by Emerson Sparts. And the whole the whole talk is just about like how how optim like how good the world is doing on all fronts.

And this is nine years ago when people were talking about a lot of different things, but this these graphs reminded me of that. I I think you just inspired me to make a new type of video. I'm going to use Blockwork data and I'm going to use Emerson style to make like the the most optimistic crypto digital asset video on something like that. >> 100%. Look, I mean, if you took out the word crypto >> or like onchain or blockchain like >> you could you could show these charts to someone be like this is AI growth >> and someone be like yeah yeah 100%.

Yeah, that's what >> like look at >> like what's the difference between this chart? So there's so there's these huge things happening right now too. There's a huge tokenization supply shock happening in in markets right now. And you also have this demand shock where agents are using far more tokens than people, which is crazy. Which is if you want to get, you know, if you want to put a little line into that video, like it's very possible that humans were never actually intended to be the end users for these blockchains.

Like >> 100%. It's it's a it's a it's a very under I think there's like you know payments moving on chain and agents but like I actually think it's a very it's become kind of a narrative that people are already sick of but like I mean an agent can open a bank account and but an agent can open a can open a wallet with a stable coin like that to me is kind of everything you need to know about what the future's going to look like.

Have you gone down the uh have you gone down the uh the rabbit hole into agentic defi? >> Yeah, a little bit. I mean, I've spent this month building AI agents on top of our own data at Blockworks and it's just extremely clear that like this machine native economy, I think as Black Rockck calls it, is where is where things are going. like yeah X42 processed six uh I think it was 165 million transactions in in uh I forget the month like let's call it August or May or something like that that's just that's just machines paying machines so why shouldn't machines lend capital from another like to another machine why shouldn't they borrow capital from machines so yeah like if you look at a something like an a morpho a chamino a spark like I think the I think borrowers and lenders on those platforms.

It'll just be machine to machine, agent to agent instead of today it's human to human >> is so this this uh chart is is token use it but I think one of the things that you've talked about too a lot is that uh agentic web traffic has just surpassed human traffic as well right >> exactly yeah which you know I think we at Blockworks thought it would be like a 2028 or 2020 this is one where we were wildly off we were not optimistic enough uh this is um you know agent request right here.

So, if you look at this, this is AI agent requests in the billions per day uh from Cloudflare. There's a 1,700% increase year-over-year in daily AI agent requests on Cloudflare's network. And the cool thing about um blockchains is that the internet the internet made it so that we could move information seamlessly around, right? like globally and free and all all that kind of and and instantly and all that kind of good stuff.

That was what the internet did. Blockchains make it so you can do all of that global, free, instant, but for value. And so why why would this stop at humans? Why would it? >> I mean it seems overwhelmingly obvious that yeah that's agents will be using crypto rails uh in in your five plus two potential was it five or four I don't know four plus two potential new tokens you're looking at you haven't really mentioned anything that seems to to capture the value of it of like a agent fintech.

Uh are are you looking at anything in that? Like it seems like it's pretty obvious that the winner would take most in this category if someone could could put it together, could build the rails, could build the the token like maybe the chain link of Agentic Finance. >> I think that's a great point. I think that's a really good point. I don't know the bet there yet. I don't know the bet. Like I think that um so there was those there's these two exogenous shocks happening right now.

Tokenization is this supply shock for assets coming onto blockchains and AI and agents are the demand shock for usage of these things. So the supply shock thesis is clearly you have to buy a token or two that is around tokenization and that's why actually the other token I'm looking uh token and company I'm looking at is Backpack. I think they are an yeah an incredible tokenized equity platform. And again I don't own any yet.

I don't want to come on here and shill tokens that I own. Um, but I think that they have done a phenomenal job of building tokenized equities the right way. So that Okay. So there's your supply shock thesis. What's your what's your demand shock thesis? I don't I don't know. I don't know. I actually don't know the token to own there yet. >> Yeah. >> So if you got if you've got one, you should let me know. >> I mean, you you you said before we started recording, you said that you had an entire team in the trenches looking at alpha.

I mean, you you must have heard by of Tibber by now. No. Yeah. Yeah. I I was uh I owned I owned a good amount of tipper. Yeah. Actually, that's funny that you bring up tipper. I no longer own any I no longer own any timber, but I I own I used I at one point I owned a good amount of tipper. >> Why? Why did you I mean that that would capture the >> that that is the like but is assumed to be the entire >> I I mean Mickey's a genius.

Rivet Capital is one of the best funds in the world. Um Mickey's on the board of Robin Hood. He's like, "Yeah, I consider him to be one of the best fintech investors in history." And so that's the thesis for that's the thesis for timber right there. >> Yeah. >> Right. >> So why did you why would why did you sell? >> It had just it had run up a crazy amount. I think I bought it like with a couple days after it launched and um Yeah. >> Okay.

Well, um it's not too late to get back in. Got a good dip right now. >> It's true. It's true. I did see that it was running. They did a migration over to Robin Hood or something. Did what? They did. >> So you're you're you're keeping in the loop. It's not like you're you're blind. You're now you're >> I'm in the loop. I mean, we've got almost a hundred people at Blockworks. We've got, you know, about a third of those people are analysts who are just deeply in the trenches.

We've got a platform called Blockworks Intel and Blockworks Monitoring where we're putting out reports every single day. I mean, like our guys were we were some of the first capital on Robin Hood chain. Like real like serious capital before anyone moved good money onto Robin Hood chain. like it was our analysts were on Robin Hood chain and um yeah I mean we're we we try to be early to things and we you know put that information out to our platform customers and that's why we we have that's one of the reasons we have a a good business.

So >> cool. >> Yeah. >> Um one thing I want to talk about is this kind of block works transparency score. It's something that it sounds a lot like what I was before this was like 2000 probably 2023 2024 I was I was working on something called like the token transparency act which was supposed to be like >> oh interesting >> yeah and uh I I wasn't able to get anyone that like to to work on it that like cared enough about it or get traction but I thought it was like really important.

Sounds like that's something that you're working on here with this transparency score. >> Yeah, exactly. So um I will I will show you this. So if you look at um basically the context and then I can walk you through some of these is basically there uh in traditional capital markets like we were talking about you've got S1's and 10Ks and 10 Q's and um uh filings when someone sells a form 4 like there's all these forced disclosures and the disclosures exist so that the public markets are free are fair transparent markets.

Imagine Zuck was able to sell a billion dollars of meta shares and you never find out. Like imagine >> someone imagine someone didn't even have to disclose >> like that they paid NASDAQ a billion dollars to list them on their exchange. That's how that's how crypto that's how crypto markets work today. It's crazy. And so we have something called the token transparency framework. We don't apply a score to it. We are we are not judging what someone says to us.

We just judge them on whether or not they disclose the information. So someone could tell us >> that they pay the shadiest market maker in the world >> that to keep their token above a certain price. Great. You disclosed it to the market. We will let the free market decide if that's a good or a bad thing. It's not on us to decide. So, if you go to you can just Google blockworks uh TTF or go to blockworks.com token-transparency um and you can see so we've got you know 189 of these um we have filed for people 80 of them so these are people who did not want to file and we proactively filed for them >> and then we have 109 people who came to us and said we want to be more transparent we didn't know how to do that >> um But look for for the people who don't want to file, we are we are going to scrape everything that we can find online and do it for you.

So here I've got something like right Gala Games where we like we filed this for them. Um, this is that we they have an incomplete disclosure for market maker agreements and deals, sex and decks agreements and deals, prior token sales and fundraising, and material risk factors around regulation, technology, and token economics. I would not be a buyer of tokens that are not disclosing things to the market. I'm so curious like on on this uh do you have anyone on here who has disclosed their exchange agreement with a Binance or an OKX or anything like that? >> Many many actually >> and the terms of those agreements as well. >> So with some of the exchanges they do that and some of the exchanges put into their contracts that if you publicly disclose we will delist you.

So, you know, one of those that you mentioned will not will delist you if you if you disclose it and others are are a little more casual. But if you um but actually we have you can kind of see who's involved here. So like Coinbase and Kraken, so we have a transparency alliance. These are all organizations who are backing this open verifiable standard for token disclosures, right? This is Coinbase, Kraken, Binance US, not Binance International, >> right?

Anchorage, Moon Pay, Falcon X, right? These are many, many Upbit, Copper, these are many of the best exchanges and uh, you know, custodians in the world. There are some big ones who are uh, notably missing here, I would say. So, >> yep, that's fantastic, man. I mean, I I hope that more people participate in this. Uh, I'll you know I'll I'll dig it up. I'll dig my old uh my old thesis up and send it over. >> And by the way, you can get all this from an API.

So like the cool thing about this is you can go into cloud code and be like I want to build a screener. You don't have to use our platform. like just pull our data into your own dashboard or whatever and be like I want to build a screener of all of the best token of all of the tokens who are fully disclosing things who maybe have a market cap o uh under 100 under 100 million something like that right and so you can actually start to yeah there's some good there's some very good trades that have been made here >> cool okay cool let's uh let's go on to uh just a little bit of speculation here.

I mean, Chris, hear your thoughts on where do you think Bitcoin is by the end of the year and then um and when do we see an alltime high? So, that's that's continuing that question of what does this cycle look like? >> Uh firmly I feel very confident we'll we'll hit an all-time high in the next 12 months. So, we will hit an all-time high in the next 12 months. So, what is that 125 126k? Um that's about a 50% move from here.

I feel very confident about that. I mean, look, Bitcoin is one of those assets, this isn't news to you, that you you just don't sell. You ju you just hold it, right? We will eventually see Bitcoin in the millions of dollars. Um, but in the next 12 months, um, yeah, I mean, I I'd say pretty firmly all-time high in the next 12 months. >> And then where do you think it like how high and at what time? Like at what time of the year, next year, 2028, 2029, do you see the top?

Um I would guess sometime in 2028 we will you know these so like before I fall into this trap I will say I think these four years I I actually am a believer in the four-year cycle still because everyone who has ever >> said there is no four-year cycle has been proven wrong. So until they until the until I am proven wrong I'm a believer in the four year cycle. Um, >> that's me every year, by the way, except for this year when I'm saying that, okay, I've been wrong every year.

I'm going to believe >> and this is probably, by the way, you and I are going to be wrong now because this is uh just how life works. But >> uh >> these cycles are more and more muted. So like what does a like this bare market was not that bad. >> This was a really light bare market. I remember. And then the last bare market before this, >> it's like bad, but like it was fine. I remember the bare market before that. I remember in 2019 getting beers with my co-founder saying if this whole industry goes away, where should we work?

I remember he said he said Netflix and I said Uber. We were talking about like >> where we would go work outside of the industry if there was no crypto industry. The the last cycle it was um I wonder how long this will last. Wow, this really sucks. This cycle it was I'm I'm not even phased. And so I'm I'm kind of thinking like when like when do we top, right? It's a fun question, but it's also like the next bare market just I don't know.

It might be like a little 30% pullback last for 6 months and onto the next, you know? >> Yeah, it's really true. I mean it just for for those who watching had the pleasure to be around in those days like pleasure and the pain they were so extreme you know for all of us who were able to participate being able to go from having to make money the really hard way to throwing like a thousand bucks in an ICO and seeing like 1500x or something like that you know it's just like >> totally >> what the hell >> yeah exactly I mean it was easy up easy down right so I think that's also the thing like people looking for the 100x right now.

I don't know if they're getting it. Like I'm not sure like that you used to be able to I'm not going to say easily, but like it wasn't that hard to make 100x with no leverage. I don't think there's 100x right now like in in a two to three year time period, right? Like obviously I think many of these tokens will go up 100x over the next several years, but like the way that people are going up 100x right now is leverage, which is why the per platforms and Hyperlid and things like that are ripping. um leverage.

We didn't used to be such a leverage dominated industry until 2020 and 2021, which then we which then blew us up with Genesis, BlockFi, and Celsius. >> Now, you know, a lot of the leverage exists in different ways. It exists more with trade like it it just exists in in a slightly healthier way, I'd say. So, there is leverage. It's harder to make 100x. Your question was when when do we top 2028, but I don't really know.

I do feel confident that we will hit an all-time high in the next year. >> Cool. Okay, Jason, now we're going to go to like a rapid fire part of the show where I just ask some really quick questions, quick answers. Uh Zcash run, was it coordinated or organic? >> Coordinated. >> Awesome. Yeah. Uh what one altcoin to hold for three years? >> What do you consider altcoin? I'd say hyper hyperlid I think is still an altcoin.

So I'd put Hyperlquid in there. >> Sure is. Yeah. uh privacy or tokenized equities bigger sector by the end of 2027. >> Tokenized equities 10 times out of 10. >> 100%. Yeah. What% of your portfolio is crypto and what's in the rest? >> Um about today it's probably 40 to 50% crypto and the rest is um Robin Hood. I mean things that are adjacent to crypto mostly like I own a lot of Eli Liy which is not crypto. Robin Hood, Coinbase stock.

Um I I think I'm I'm very long Robin Hood. I'm very long Coinbase. I'm very long Eli Liy. Um I bought a bunch of Meta a couple of weeks ago uh when I realized Zuck was going like full founder mode. Um >> you said rapid fire. That's the portfolio. >> And is there is there any any of any of it in cash or cash equivalents? >> Um yeah, I'm probably 10% in cash right now. >> Okay. Me too. Exactly 10%. Yeah, more or less. Uh, what's the most undervalued quality thing in crypto right now? >> Um, long-term mindset, long-term view. >> And what's the most overvalued thing in crypto right now? >> Um, for the first time in history of this industry, I think being cryptonative is overvalued.

Um, block works actually to give you a data point, blocks, one of our key hiring traits used to be cryptonativity. You used to have to really deeply understand the industry. >> Yeah, >> that is no longer one of our key hiring traits. Um, for the first time in ever nine years of doing this. >> Interesting. Really interesting. Yeah, it's very true. I didn't think about that. Jason, thank you so much for coming on, man.

It's been great. For those who want to follow what you're doing, uh, let us know how to do that. >> Yeah, I'm on Twitter, Jason Yanowitz. Um, Blockworks is the company I run. So, um, my co-founder, Mike, and I started this nine years ago. We are the leading data company for onchain analytics. So blockworks.com and you can go learn more about us. >> Awesome. Thanks, Jason. >> Thank you, man.