The Influencer Playbook From $6M to $100M – Josh Durham Breaks It Down transcript

Josh Durham, should brands pay influencers to post on their social feeds? Is that a waste of money at this point? I've heard pay-per-st influencers to pay them for the post and that should be the extent of my deal with them. >> No, it should go much much further. And I also say if you're at 5 million a year, you probably should only be paying influencers for paid social usage and potentially just doing gifting. >> Okay.

So, tell me more about what you mean by those two things. >> Yeah. So, I mean, I get a lot of uh inbound deal flow just through referrals and Twitter and stuff like that. And we've been around for five years now, which is really crazy. And so basically we kind of have benchmarks of like what influencer levers you should pull based on your annual revenue of your brand. So we have clients who are billion dollar CPG brands and we also have clients who are $6 million a year e-commerce brands and how we approach those two things are very different.

So zero to six million a year as like a DTOC brand. I think that you should only be focused on product gifting. And and then also if you're going to pay creators, I would just focus on that being for uh paid social usage and like whitelisting their accounts. But typically that you know those budgets for whitelisting can vary from a couple hundred bucks to $5,000. And so I think, you know, product gifting from zero to six million makes a lot of sense.

You get a lot of content volume. You get you get less control. So that's the only downside over that content, but you get volume and actual diversity, creative diversity that everyone says they want. Um it's because it's, you know, you let the creator create. You're not telling them what to say and giving them a script. So that's 0 to six million. And then above that like I would say you know 10 million like 6 million to maybe 30 million a year that's when we kind of start recommending actually having a paid budget but a lot of that paid budget is primarily going to whitelisting usage.

So kind of on average like you know gifting 100 influencers a quarter 200 influencers a quarter we usually get like a 75% posting rate on that product gifting. So you get, you know, you get the benefit of the organic awareness, cheap CPMs on that content that you can plug into Meta. Usually get one year paid usage on product gifting content. But then on the flip side for whitelisting, it's a lot more DR style, getting three ad variations, you're usually getting like a 90 days to whitelist and then at least having like one year usage rights to that content to run from the brand handle.

So yeah, those are my kind of general benchmarks and then over 30 million plus like Oh, go ahead. Sorry. So, so five, let me just repeat that and then let's talk about over 30 million a little bit. So, >> so five million or less really sounds like you're saying 10 million or less basically, right? >> Yeah. >> Uh, you should be just gifting, getting posts and then and then reaching out to people. Gifting meaning you literally just send your product to people, tell them sort of you, we're not asking for anything.

You're just gifting it to you. >> A lot of times they'll post anyway. You said 75% of the time they'll post anyway. That's what we our average is like it's really high but like you know >> because you guys have some magic sauce for how to get that. >> We're saucy. That's [laughter] all I can say. >> That's what I brought you on. >> Yeah. >> Okay. No, we just we just have expectations of getting that deliverable upfront.

Okay. >> And that's gifting versus seating. You know, seating is send out a bunch of product, hope they post. >> Yeah. >> Gifting is, hey, we want you to post in exchange for our product and then we can hold them to that and keep them accountable. So, there's two different like variations. >> Okay. I see what you're saying. All right. Um, so you guys are actually asking for the post when you when you gift it. >> Yeah, for most for most brands.

But if you're, you know, if you're a $10 moisturizer, you should probably just seed product because you're one of a million, you know? It's like it's hard. Just it all depends on the brand of like how how much brand equity do you have? Are you well known? Do you have an influence a big influencer behind you? >> So yeah. >> So you're getting those posts is and I like the idea of using this to move through the conversation this way sort So, for the sub10 million brand, let's sort of walk through the whole way this works.

So, you're reaching out to influencers, you're gifting to them, you're asking for the post when you gift. 75% of them actually follow through with the post. Uh, and you you then uh are most uh well, are most of them posting on stories at that point? >> So, we're usually getting one in feed post like an IG reels, Tik Tok posts, and then usually like one to two stories. So, usually when the product shows up, you know, they do a quick unboxing on stories and then within that next week they make a post on like IG reels.

And then when you do that, are you thinking about sort of influencer size or following or something like that? That is the right kind of range for when you're at that stage of things. >> Yeah. On the gifting seating front, it's usually like 10k to 100k followers. Is that range kind of microcreator? And for whitelisting, you know, that can definitely vary, but like there's influential people that you can do on on whitelisting for 50,000 followers, but generally when you use a paid budget, it's like over 100,000 followers.

Okay, interesting. So, subund,000, you're getting the gifting and you're not worrying as much about whitelisting or you are worrying about whitelisting. Maybe I'm confused. >> The over 10 million a year. >> Under 10 million a year. >> Yeah, I would say gifting. And that's why I said originally like six million because I do think that you if you're a $6 million brand that that means you're doing like 500k a month in revenue and so you are probably still trying to scale up paid social and you should just >> if you are going to work with influencers it's going to be for the sake of just paid social content.

Yeah, you know, it's like feed the beast. Let's work with someone influential. Let's see what happens when you run from a third party versus your ad account. Like, is it going to equal lower CPMs, higher click-through rates, higher return on ad spend? Um, so I these are kind of just general benchmarks, but it's just what I I think what a lot of agencies will do kind of in the brand marketing world is like, oh, you're a $3 million agency.

Why don't you pay this influencer 15K with no set of deliverables? And that's when a lot of people I think get burned is like I think I think everyone and their mother has been burned by an influencer >> because they thought it was going to be the end all beall and then nothing happened. So just these benchmarks are just like super kind of general like what I recommend to my clients and I don't I always try to make the best uh what's best at their stage of their business because I wouldn't tell a brand doing 500k a month >> to go spend 30 to 60k a month on influencer paper posts although we do that for specific clients who are doing mid eight figures a year doing nine figures a billion dollars a year so it's just very different in terms of like the ratios of the influencer budgets >> uh versus revenue. >> So in that earlier stage then you're you're looking at it and saying >> you're gifting you're doing gifting but also are you taking the people who perform well in gifting or whose content you like the most and then also reaching out and doing whitelisting deals with them. >> Yeah.

So honestly one cool thing that we've been doing has been getting whitelisting codes from gifted creators. And so we had a we actually have had a client just in the last two months where we had gifted a creator and we're like hey can we run this in as like a whitelisted co you know whitelisting in in in meta and they're like yes >> got like a one-click approval >> and it has six figures of ad spend behind it now at like a 2x row.

So it's like gift you can still do gifting into whitelisting >> that can still actually work. Yeah, >> it's just trickier because I think that at one point all the influencers went to a conference around like [laughter] whitelisting and they're like don't whitelist like don't you know don't give it up. So I think a lot of them like in different spaces are a lot more kind of like close to the chest with that and really use that as like a negotiation leverage for like the set of deliverables.

So you just have to play the game. Did you skip gifting then and just go straight for wireless? Because you're saying, you know, in that early stage of business, like you said, 500,000 a month in revenue, you're still probably really building on meta as your primary thing. At that point, are you saying would you sort of skip gifting and just use the budget for for whitelisting or would you would you not? Yeah, I guess I guess how would you think at that stage of business?

What's the what's the divide between >> whitist? >> Go try to get whitelisting deals and Yeah. versus gifting or or is it some combination of both or like Yeah. >> Yeah. I think I mean I think the reason just to back up is like I think influencers come down to trust >> right so I think that like I think trust is the thing that matters here that's why influencer still works is because in a land of AI uh you know AI record like videos and just static images like I think that having an influencer that you actually trust is still kind of the holy grail and that's why you know that's why we see partnership ads have been working so well for the past year.

So to answer that question, should I do gifting or whitelisting? I think it depends on your budget, right? Like I think realistically if you want to go sponsor five whitelisted creators, I'd be prepared to spend around $10,000 in a given month. If you're wanting to work with actual influencers who have 100,000 followers, if you just want UGC creators, go for it. Spend $100 an asset and like whitelist the UGC creators, but I don't know that there's trust and I don't know that there's like an audience there.

So I think that with gifting I think the advantage is it's just cheap cost of goods sold like you're going to build some awareness on social and then also you're getting like an army of influencers to follow your social handle so that when you are whitelisting or you are running ads and instead of you know them clicking to the site but they click your profile on IG they see that oh my favorite influencers are all following this brand and then you know just that little bit of thirdparty trust and you're getting like creative volume on um from the gifting side.

So it just depends on the brand, but you know, I just think that it's all about trust. >> I like that point a lot. So So yeah, I maybe maybe that's the question for brands at that stage of business in particular with with some limitation to resource and often the limitation of resource is really the limitation of time to go find people to go do that kind of stuff, you know, which maybe is where you guys time and definitely I think whitelisting will be a lot easier. >> Yeah, >> because you know gifting is kind of like hurting cats.

Yes. And that's why we do it [laughter] because our clients want to do it and they're like, "We've tried this. It's so hard. It takes so much time. Why aren't they posting?" So, it's just we just have it dialed in at this point. It's just rinse and repeat for us. So, I think Yeah, you're right. I think time is a big constraint on that point. >> Yeah. Especially in that such a business, you don't have enough money to go hire a lot of people or whatever.

So, yeah, the idea Yeah, it makes sense that that you guys would just sort of step into that and say we have it's not too far off. What I say for people with with us as a meta agency is like people will tell me all the time, "Oh, we're going to bring this in house and we're going to dedicate full-time resources and that's going to make it so that we can get way more done to work with you." It's like, "No, you don't understand.

All I do is think about how to build a better process to create good quality ads at scale." And so, I'm going to beat your in-house team like I even even with less time dedicated to it, you know? I'm just going >> You don't realize how long I've been in this game. >> Yeah. Yeah. And just like how much the skill is in building the operations and the strategies and all that kind of stuff. It's a It's a real thing. >> I actually was seeing someone else was tweeting yesterday.

I was like, I've been getting So, I'm like trying to launch a brand in like three months. I actually just got like my purchase order yesterday. >> All right. >> And basically like I've been getting really back to my direct response roots. You know, I think that it's interesting having this conversation right now because I feel like I went on this journey of brand marketing with influencer marketing, but now it's all come back full circle where, you know, direct response like partnership ads and influencer being kind of brand are kind of like colliding once again. >> Yep. >> But I saw someone that was like tweeting about how they started doing, you know, Shopify drop shipping in like 2021 or 2022.

I was like, I've been in this game since 2015. >> [laughter] >> I know that you've been around for a long time, too. It's just so funny. It's like, it's so crazy just the cycles that >> that you start to notice just now being in in ecom for like 10 plus years of like how how much even influencer marketing has changed and even just like meta >> Zach's Zach I mean the reason I brought you on is because I I I as I told you before we started recording like I don't really know what influencer marketing is right now.

I feel like I still see some whiff whispers of it and I mean it's it's very helpful to get some of the the details here. Yeah, Zack Stuck tweeted the other day something about like just embracing being ecom [laughter] just >> Yes. >> Yeah, it's so true. It's like there's these things you can learn from people who are new to it who have fresh eyes and who are younger and then there's things that you kind of have to give because you've just sort of watched a lot of things happen. >> I know.

I was just like even I've been like building out our Shopify store and like like the things that you can do of like copy paste a URL into Replo. I'm it like blows my mind. I was like, I used to watch courses with Ryan Dice from digitalmarketer.com and also Ezra Firestone. Like those were my >> Oh, yeah. >> the holy grail. But I would have to like sit through a whole 5 hour, six hour course to learn all these tactics.

And now you just like copy and paste stuff and like having chat GPT is like >> it's never been easier. >> Yeah. >> You know, and also it's never been harder. But like I just think it's just so crazy to see how it's evolved. >> Always happy to shout out Ezra too on this show. He was I always say he was the first marketing influencer type person that I that I saw where I was like this guy I trust. >> Yeah. >> And that was and that was like in 2015.

Like it was >> I'm such a big Ezra fan. I think he followed me back on Twitter like two year two or three years ago. I was like, "Oh my gosh, this guy's awesome." >> Yeah. If you are building out your team to do the kind of work that I'm talking about in this episode, influencer management and things like that, if you're not working with an agency like Josh, you might want to staff that team with incredible talent from the Philippines with my friends at More Staffing.

More staffing is my staffing partner that I have now been working with for multiple years. Use them across every business that I touch to staff my team with amazing talent from the Philippines. [music] And I just couldn't be a bigger fan of what they are doing. As I have said a lot of times, if you're thinking about Philippines team extension offshoring in the Philippines, if you're thinking about that as $5 an hour virtual assistance, you're missing out on what the total opportunity is there.

I am looking for [music] really high quality team members. And I'm repeatedly finding really high quality team members across every part of the business. That's manager, director, and even higher level team members for basically, like I said, everything I touch. That's the brand that I'm starting on one side. That's also AJF Growth itself. I've got two job applications or two job postings going out with them later today because we're going to hire them more because it's worked out so well for us in the past.

The simple value here is that your dollars just go really far in the Philippines to attract great quality talent. So you can sort of hire up market, hire people with better, deeper resumes in the Philippines, a country of 90 million people, people, a lot of people with with great resumes there. You can hire up market. Your dollars go a lot farther to attract great talent than they do in the US in particular. And so you can go and look through that.

And the very simple thing I would tell you to do is go and just get on a call with more and collect some resumes. If you have an open position, you should look with more and see if there's Filipino talent that can help you do that. If you didn't know, almost everybody in the Philippines grows up speaking English as like a second or really even almost first language. It's it's basically uh everybody there speaking really, really good English.

So, if that's a concern for you, it really shouldn't be. All kinds of great ability to work cross-culturally across teams. We found that to be repeatedly the case. And I actually really couldn't be more thankful for my interactions with my Filipino teammates. I love them. They're awesome and creates great opportunity for us and for them. It's just really great. So go to more staffing, get connected with them. More staffing will actually backfill any positions that you hire that don't work out uh with no additional headhunting fee if they don't work out for at least a year.

So you got a year guarantee on anybody you hire with them. Go to more staffing.co.staffing.co. Just follow the link in the show notes to go do that. Go check it out today. I really like the point you're making about trust and I I've sort of made the distinction in some places of of uh actor versus influencer versus creator as like three separate ways to work with talent, you know, in actor versus what? Say it again. Actor. >> Influencer versus creator. >> Nice.

Okay. >> And and the lines on some of these get get blurry, but like >> uh uh and then and then I would maybe put another another category which is celebrity. Um >> Oh, yeah. where celebrities celebrity is sort of like a like the influencer but on a different level typically. >> You're like you're validated through like being a professional athlete or you're on Dancing with the Stars. That's the like level like you have to be on TV. >> Yeah. >> Kind of or a commercial and people know who you are. >> That's right.

Yeah. So the actors, anybody you're using uh in an ad to read a script. >> So it could be me. I could be the actor in it. You know, it's not like actually a professional actor necessarily. Uh, it's just that like it's just that if you're reading a script on screen, you are not really a creator. You're not creating anything. You're just reading a script and you're not really a uh I mean I guess you could create with a script, but again, some of these lines get blurry at points.

Um, and you're not an influencer. The point's not that some, you know, that >> that you know, you're conveying some authority. You're just delivering a message via a script. Um, the creator, the value of creators so much of the time is the idea that they like the distinctive thing that I see with a creator is they understand how to create. Um, and this is sort of the critical word, algorithmic content, right? Like the thing is they know how to work the alg they know how to generate engagement on. >> They're an algo whisperer. >> That's right.

Yeah. And so so you want to let them create. You want to let them do whatever they want to do. The influencer though is I think to me comes to what you just referenced which is which is and and by the way a lot of people become influencers via via being creators and then influencers become celebrities. Um, but >> you have to move up the ladder. But it all starts as a UGC actor. >> Mi Mr. Beast is the extreme version of this, right?

Like he starts as like a simple creator and then he and then he becomes an influencer over time and then and then eventually becomes a full celebrity, you know. So um >> but the thing about the influencer is that they is your point I think is right which is that the notion of trust >> and there are a lot of brands >> where you really don't realize how important that is to the buying decision until until you run up against your limits of what you can do in your ads. you know, it's just this notion and I do think it's built over time slowly the way you said which is like gifting over a bunch of time getting some of them in your ads and maybe they have 30,000 followers to start and they have really niche micro trust but for those 30,000 they people you know there's people my wife follows on the internet who are probably in that range but she trusts them a lot and she cares a lot about what they say you know >> I have one influencer that's like a like a fitness dad and he just hit a 100,000 followers and I was like whoa our guy he blew up like I was like so stoked for him.

You know what I mean? >> Yeah. But you might have trust a ton, right? At 25,000, you might have trusted him a ton. And for those 25,000 people, it matters a lot. So the idea of like sort of steadily and and I want you to correct me anywhere you think I'm I'm laying this out wrong, Josh. >> No, this is great. The way I run right now, >> the way I think about it is like by slowly compiling these people over time relative to the revenue and basically budget stage you're at >> for the ability to get more of these people that the the influencer game is this long-term game, particularly if you're in a more niche community or you're in, you know, whatever, not necessarily niche, but if you're just in a in a some kind of community or whatever, like the more people see you show up with the feeds or in the feeds of people they care about, little by little trust is built and a lot of frequency.

Yeah. Yes, a lot of times that's not a it's not like meta where you can just like blast it out to millions of people at XCPM, you know, and do that. It's actually a slower build over time with and that that to me feels like the place of gifting and that kind of thing is it's actually not necessarily the make it happen fast and and maybe also this is where sort of brand and DR end up coming together a little bit is eventually that becomes that has a DR impact and there's people getting into your ad account and all that kind of stuff.

But >> yeah, that's my feel. Tell tell me if you think that is is right. >> Yeah. No, 100%. It's like frequency over a long period of time. >> And I think that like I actually I I tweeted about this. I think only like five people liked it, but I thought it was like such a good >> tweet. I was I bought like some fitness equipment for my garage like last uh like around Christmas time. >> And as I was kind of like doing the whole comparison game, I was like, you know, I went to garage gym reviews.

Um I I Who is that guy on on Twitter, too? He's he's like the founder of Garage Gym Reviews. Oh, Cooper. His C his name is Cooper. But anyways, uh he's kind of like my influencer because he was like benchmarking, you know, the So then I click into uh I click into one of these websites called majorfitness.com and I start researching and then the remarketing within uh major fitness is insane. Like there was a guy who who basically showed me, you know, here's what it looks like to actually unbox this and like how long it's going to take you to set up.

He's like, "This took me, you know, 16 hours to set up by myself." He shows it like he basically shows you like the whole thing. Like you get four different boxes. You have to unbox it all. There's a lot of wrapping. But then the next ad within retargeting was like a gal who just shows you like what her fitness routine is while she's working out on it. And then the third, you know, the third ad that I got was like, here's I bought this because I am in the gym with my daughter right now and instead of having to drive 20 minutes each way and spend 40 minutes in the car to go to Planet Fitness or a normal gym and have to wait to use a machine, I can do it right now, right here, and I get to spend quality time with my family.

So, there's just like these three creative angles that was just hit from each influencer. And honestly, I doubt that the brand told them to say all those things. I think that all those things were just natural things that they were experiencing with the product. And I think that to your point around frequency, it's like frequency and then also creative diversity of like different angles that speak to you because you know all frankly all those angles spoke to me.

I was the one that set it up. I have kids. I don't want to drive to the gym. Also maybe I need to have you know whatever workout that girl was doing in her garage. But just, you know, there's like three creative angles and it was like, you know, but there's like probably 10 more influencers after that that all had a different angle. So, I don't know. There's something to that. And I, you know, I spent the the the $4,000 on the gym equipment for, you know, for that purchase.

Yeah, I love that. I love that way of doing it because yeah, there just are these repeated touch points that matter in people's purchase decision over time. All built on trust. What you just referenced is different messages and different people all who you trust in. Yeah, it's I think that's a really it's a really good indication of how these purchase decisions work. And and >> it's also a question too. Do you feel like it's better within retargeting or do you feel like whitelisted ads on on your end?

Have you seen them perform better top of funnel or do you feel like it's more middle of funnel? >> Okay. Everything. >> Well, yeah. I mean, I I almost reject the distinction I think >> that there's a funnel. >> Well, yeah. That's a whole that's a whole other thing. Um, [laughter] >> I don't reject the I don't reject the distinction. Um, but I I >> Yeah, I think they were they tend to be both. But the >> I can see exactly why they fit the way they did for you in that particular moment.

I could also see how different things would go the other way. But one thing I think is the situation you're describing is it sounds like those influencers really believe the things they were saying. Like they actually >> liked it. >> Yeah, totally. It wasn't. Is that something you guys value that that like you find ways or is there a way you sort of pull on that? Because again, I've watched influencer marketing go badly. >> Yeah. >> I was once at a shoot.

I was once at a shoot with an influencer for a client where they had put money into the shoot. the influencer was getting the product for the first time that day and it was a performance related product, a sports performance product in the and you know was had signed on to use that sports performance product in their sport uh the whole time and the influencer was standing there going I don't like this like I this what like why am I you know like >> and so but then but then the influencer was like was like on the on the hook and so then like I'm sitting there trying to get them to say this is who I am and this is why I use this product And it was like it was so awkward and it came through so much in the content versus >> having building a deal with somebody who was like, "Hey, I'm actually excited about this.

Like I think it's really good and I like what you're doing a lot." >> That's part of the reason gifting works, too. You know, it's like if they're willing to do it for free and then, you know, I always say, you know, it's like the frequency of how often they use it and then how many times they post afterwards shows you how how much they actually love the product. >> Yeah. And we saw this with um with Hexcloud of just like working with influencers who actually enjoyed the product and like you know with Hexcloud the frequency of how many times they would post >> was so high because a it was a really great product but um but also you always are cooking like if you're a recipe creator you're not just you know you're not it's not not one and done like you're like you're putting on a it's kind of harder to make a a skincare routine video.

You can't do that more than once. But if you're making new recipes, you're using the same pan over and over again. So again, there was like we gifted them, but instead of posting once because it was a bad product and maybe they didn't like it, they posted like three to five times on average because they loved the product and actually used it. >> Yeah. Yeah. I I really like that. Um I I sort of always like it. This is a bias of mine, but I almost always like it when the answer in an interview like this is like, yeah, there's really no substitute for doing the work over a long period of time, [laughter] you know, like >> Yes.

That's exactly how I live my life, too. >> Yeah. >> I just like you just stay in this long enough. You have to endure the pain long enough and then great things happen. >> Yeah. And and I like that it's sort of a more realistic it's the the title of this episode is not going to be how to use influencer marketing to get to mid eight figures in three in, you know, one year or whatever. like it's not going to be like that.

It's like it's a it's like it's going to be about like a realistic pathway to leveraging influencers for profitable growth or something, you know. I don't know. >> Totally. >> So, um Okay. So, let me ask you one more question about this. Let's say I have a uh 50,000 follower influencer >> and let's you can put them in whatever generic category you want, right? So, I can imagine some of these are going to be different for beauty or fitness or moms or whatever, but yeah, put them whatever category you want. >> 50,000 followers.

Uh, let's say I gift them. It's uh they love the product. It's awesome. I love their content. Their content performs well. And I'm like, "Hey, I want to keep working with this person." Okay. Um, what should I do next if I if that happens? What What >> So, you gifted them and then you're you're like, >> "I've already gifted them. They've produced content that I think is great. They really sincerely like it. You know, what should I do next with them?" And let's say let's say I'm a $6 million brand. >> $6 million brand.

Okay. Cool. >> $6 million brand, 50,000 follower influencer. Yeah. Yeah. So, if you're working with us, when we do gifting, our average um paid usage rights is about one year. So, we I would immediately plug that into Meta and see how that's performing and then if it's perform. >> So, separately go and work out a deal after after I've gifted and say, "Hey, I want to run that content." >> No, no, I've already worked out the deal before I gifted them. >> Okay.

So, that's part of the gifting. Part of the gifting is that when you post the content, I get to use it in my ad account. >> Yes. Make sure you set that expectation up front, >> but maybe not with whitelisting. >> Yeah, but not with whitelisting with paid usage that I can run it as is the asset. Plug it in from the brand account. So then if it works well from the brand account, then the next step is hey, can we get the whitelisting code for the ad account as well?

And >> okay. Okay, awesome. So, so >> that's like those are the first two things. >> I can get access to the content in the ad account for just the price of me sending the product. Maybe this is why I was getting confused earlier. So, >> yeah. Yeah. >> So, so you're saying I can get access to the to the content for the ad account. >> Uh just not whitelisting necessarily. I can get that >> as part just for the price of me gifting a product. >> Yes. >> Okay.

I should be doing Okay. Brands should do that. >> Yes, they should. They should definitely do that. It can the the warning there is just like like I mentioned before, are you a $10 skinare product or are you a $200, >> you know, piece of fitness equipment? And so that that's going to affect your opt-in rates of like when you ask for those. So, but I always like to start each of our brands on like let's get maximum deliverables out of this.

We want an IG post, we want two stories, and we want one year paid usage. Like set that set those deliverables up front when you're uh reaching out to them. And then it's a volume game of like reaching out to 800 influencers in a month for that same thing >> and then ideally getting you know a 10% optin rate, 75% posting rate. All these are kind of like the KPIs that we shoot for. >> Okay. Awesome. But >> after that, >> so yeah, so I've got the piece in the ad account.

Now I've got one year usage rights. Now what? >> Now we should ask for the whitelisting code. See if we can actually run it from the influencers account. And then uh second to that is like maybe we should send them either a if it's like something a product that's like replenishable, should we send that send it to them every single month? Like we have beverage brands that we work with, we'll send them uh a package every single month to replenish their supply.

Um but next to that is like I think is starting to use that creator for any new product launches. So, I think that like one like one mistake is, you know, instead of just think about influencer on evergreen, >> well, it's actually kind of a two-way street. It's like people either think about it and it's either evergreen or it's a or it's a campaign, you know, it's like always on or it's just like, hey, we just want help with this one product launch.

So, like number one, I always think product gifting should always be evergreen and then paid partnerships, you know, can be evergreen, but it's better when it's tied into a campaign. So like with that influencer, if you have a new product launch, you should have her, him, her as as well as like you know five to 10 other influencers all posting on the same date and pay them based on a CPM basis of their last 10 reels and get that content whitelisted in addition to that.

So this is a big product launch that you have coming up on your camp on your you know content calendar like instead of influencer being out on an island let the influencer speak to the audience and have that as just another piece of creative in your ad account but also on organic social. >> So set a C how do you set a CPM? >> So generally what we do is we are shooting for like a 20 to $30 CPM on paper post campaigns.

So, we we'll usually look at their last 10 videos. >> Usually start at $20 CPMs. Usually, we'll land on 30 >> and yeah, just negotiate from there on deliverables. >> Okay, I like that a lot. That's really clear, which I really appreciate. There's so much there's so much uh haziness on these sorts of things. And let's take that same influencer and say, yeah, 50,000 followers, like I said, let's say I do want to whitelist with them. >> How much [clears throat] should I pay for that? >> Yeah, that's a good question.

That's that's going to be kind of dependent on the industry and um how competitive it is like in that industry. So like for example supplements is is a very competitive industry. >> Outdoor outdoor products very competitive industry. Male male focused apparel brands very competitive industry. Like let's take the male brand for example. It's like, you know, let's you can think about like Cuts Clothing, Built, >> all these brands. >> Legend.

My friends are Legends. I'm wearing a Legends shirt right now. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Legends is a former client. Love those guys. I I have so many of their shorts. They're the best. >> Oh, they're fantastic. Yeah. >> Yeah. I also love 10,000, but they're they also are a [laughter] client. >> Then they came after. >> That's fine. I'm wearing Born Primitive shorts and a legend shirt and I love both [laughter] those brands and I'm wearing Born Primitive Shoes for that matter. >> Well, that's what you are.

You're not exclusive, you know, >> that's what everybody is, I think. Yeah. >> Yeah. But so that's the thing with with male brands is for every one solid male creator there's about a hundred solid female creators. So the rates are insane. [laughter] >> So it's really hard to carve out a really a high volume play. I think that norm so you know back to your question how much should I pay for whitelisting? It depends on the industry.

So in this like if I was a male apparel brand I would really focus on my paid partnerships. I would start I would continue to do gifting and I'd probably go gift female creators buying for their spouse and then I would do paid partnerships like doing really great paid partnerships. Um but that can be $500 to $5,000 for like something like 90 days, you know, whitelisting usage. I think that Zach Suck also did they did a podcast with um on Andrew I think Andrew Foxwell those guys. >> Yeah.

Yeah. Scalability is cool. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. I listened to that one on whitelisting. It was really good. I think the one of the things that that Zach said just just because he's unk apparently, you know, is uh the what the success ratio is like 5% of the influencer fee to revenue created. >> Yeah, that that was an that was an interesting ratio. I don't know if it's I don't know how realistic that is, but we've seen I mean I've definitely seen that like we whitelisted an influencer that has a million followers and they drove, you know, for like literally 15K and they literally drove 150k in attributable revenue in meta.

So >> yeah. >> Yeah. It's just it's all negotiation play and I think that like the best thing you can do is start with your rate of like what's a win for you. >> Yeah. >> You know based on your brand, your budgets, you start the negotiation. Don't ask for the rate card. Like on average, my team is able to get 50% off rate cards. And the reason is we don't ask for a rate card. >> Yeah. >> We we start we set the budget first.

Hey, would you be willing to do for this? It's like ah our normal thing is this. Okay, great. No problem. We have other people >> actually. I would like I'd like to come back with negotiation. Yeah, that's really good. I think it's really good advice. >> It's all negotiation. Like it's it's all negotiation and and it's volume. You have to have tons of pipeline up with other influencers because that's your leverage. >> You're building an e-commerce business and you need customer service software to do it.

So, you should be using Rich Panel for that. There's a very simple value proposition with Rich Panel from day one, which is that Rich Panel guarantees that they will save you 30% on your customer service software bill if you switch [music] from Gorgeous or Zenesk over to Rich Panel. So, from from the beginning, that's just something you ought to be considering and you should know. at the same time that Rich Panel is not just more affordable.

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Again, very large brands are using. So, there's also potential savings there on using AI to handle that kind of customer service work instead of having to employ a team of people all over and trying to stay up on top of things. And it's [music] just really awesome. So, customers also love it. Customers give really positive reviews on their interactions with Rich Panel, including AI interactions. They also guarantee a twoe transition [music] so that when you are switching from one software to another, it's not going to be a huge headache.

They're going to get your team trained and ready to go. Go check it out today. Richpanel.com. Get started with Rich Panel today. Okay. really good. Let's move up scale a little bit. So, so now we're going 10 to 30 million. How does my influencer strategy change as I enter that stage of things? I have a little more money to play with. I'm Meta's probably starting to decline in efficiency a little bit or I can't just pound the meta machine forever thinking about how to grow my brand besides that.

Like, yeah. >> Yeah. So, we're still gifting. You're probably going to be spending just more money on whitelisting. Like usually what we recommend is like 15k a month on you know influencer paid partnerships. So that could be whitelisting that could be some brand awareness plays for some campaigns. But it just is it all depends on like the ratio of that spend to your revenue, right? So like maybe 5 to 10% of your uh of your influencer budget uh is like 5 to 10% of of revenue.

And so, you know, it's around $15,000 of spend just because, you know, if you want to go if you want to sponsor five influencers, well, those in in the mid-tier section, like 100k plus followers, then that is going to that's going to look like $3,000 an influencer typically. So, it's going to be you're going to get five influencers per month to to test in meta. And >> and what am I what am I getting for so for that three grand per influencer?

What am I getting in that deal? usually 90 days usage, whitelisting usage, you know, depending on if they're posting >> and they're they're posting, right? Okay. Yeah. >> Yeah. It depends if you want them to. So, that all that all is a part of this. So, they're doing an IG reel that's posted, you're getting white listing access to that. Two stories, you're getting paid usage to that. Um, and then but if you want you but basically you can make that budget, you can get more bang for your buck out of that budget if you don't have them post.

So, if you only are caring about paid social, then don't have them post. Then let's just use that budget for a dark post, upload it into Meta, and just play that. But I would argue >> that you're money on the table. >> When you say dark post, what do you mean? >> Just like creating a piece of content that's uploaded into Google Drive and you're >> okay. >> You're using it and you can whitelist it. That kind of thing. >> Got it.

So, it's it's just ad content. You're saying >> it's just ad content. But I would say you're missing >> the point because maybe that like I think it should live on their on their page like they yeah if they are if you're running a whitelisted ad and they click their profile and they scroll what if they're promoting another product >> you know like you want to be the product that they use. So, I think that there's um some tact to that, but generally IG post, two stories, whitelisting assets for for 90 days uh and go from there.

But yeah, usually five creators a month at 3K a pop. >> And what you're saying, so the reason that it costs so much more because now you're going from a year usage to to three months and now you're going from gifting to $3,000. You're saying the reason for that is because you're getting better bigger influencers, right? >> Yeah. And that's the thing is like on the other side is it producing more revenue and from what I've seen it is.

You know I think that my hot take for this is that I think mid-tier influencers are actually really undervalued >> because what do you mean by mid tier? Could you just define that? >> Yeah like 100k like sub a million followers like kind of 100k to 500k follower range. Yeah. >> And the reason is because I think that they have everything that a brand wants. They're not the celeb level 1 million plus influencer that's just like pure brand awareness land that's like you know Dwayne the Rock Johnson posting shampoo uh making a shampoo when he doesn't have hair.

It's like I think that that 100k the 500k followers you get a bit of DR you get a lot of trust and you get awareness from that content because they know how to speak to their audience on like IG reels primarily. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Okay. That's that's really good. So, >> but people are always trying to push micro creators because they're so much cheaper and they're, you know, smaller, but you just don't get the reach that you get.

But you can like with a ton and ton with a ton of volume, >> but like I would argue that there's a reason that the mid-tier influencer has a has a large following. It's because they've been getting they know how to work the algorithm. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's the question to me a lot of times is like there are mid-tier influencers that I see that are really more like celebrities and I think it's especially true for athletes where they got their following because they're an athlete in a in in some community but their their content dies really fast, right?

Like they they aren't actually good at posting content on the internet. They're just >> see them on TV or whatever. >> They played in the NFL. >> Exactly. >> They played in the NBA. People kind of know them from there. >> Tell me that feels like the stayaway to me. uh that feels like the kind of person where you're not going to get any reach from them. They maybe don't lend that much credibility to your product uh because they're probably not like a huge athlete or anything like that.

Uh and and and they also they have no like algorithmic skill, right? >> And they're not an actor, >> you know? You know, you give them script and it's bad. It's like it's pretty bad. You're like, whoa, this is a huge mistake. >> Do you disagree with that? Is there a place for that kind? >> No, I don't disagree with that. I think that I think the only time that that can be helpful though is you know not to bring up a sore subject but wait did you work at Kao ever? >> I did.

Yeah. Yeah. >> Okay. You know what? So I was the head of growth at Groove. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So when I was at Groove, one of the things that we it's just kind of funny. We're like we were competitors back in the day. >> But um >> but I think one of the things that was interesting when how we use influencers there was just getting into new categories. So, like one of the our most successful partnerships with JB Mooney.

He was like he's like the Michael Jordan of bull writing. And so I think that >> Oh yeah, I've seen that guy. He's he's unbelievable. >> He's unbelievable. But his you know, if you looked at his social following, you'd probably be like, "Whoa, this is like trash." Like he's not he's not he's not like a social guy, you know? He's not a very like interactive, but >> and his like following is fairly small. But like we did a like we did the video shoot with him for a full production ad and he crushed like he was like he was doing like a 3x return and spending you know tens of thousands of dollars a day like like it it was just I've never seen anything like it.

And so I just think that having that trust is like is so so important. And so yes maybe he's not great on camera. maybe, you know, he only has 300,000 followers, but when we put it him in front of the right audience, he's like their, >> you know, he is like their guy, you know, and I just think that I think I think it comes back to trust. >> I really agree with this approach and I think it's something that brands just undervalue is how much like targeting some kind of community.

I mean, I tell the Kayla story all the time, but like the the big thing that was crucial for Kayla was getting into CrossFit and uh and it was exactly this playbook. It was like just go find influencers that people trusted in that space and get rings on their fingers and that was that was you know before Groov probably existed you know eventually I think Groove got rich froning right so it was like you got the actual goat uh of crossfit at the time >> and it was like sort of a a different deal and I think Cao did not work with Rich because he was too expensive at the time but they should have taken that swing >> um >> and uh because he just lends so much credibility in that space to the product people love Rich Froing who are in CrossFit I mean for all these dudes.

So >> he's he's in CrossFit. >> Yeah. Big time. Yeah. So um and still still has a ton of influence in that space, you know, a whole bunch of years later and that space has died out a lot, you know, but it's like it's it's still a thing. And so JB Mooney Mooney, however you say his name, like is a great example of this where it's it's a closed community, but he's got a million followers now. He's the goat there. He's amazing. >> Yeah.

And and if you want to go reach people who are into bull riding and into outdoor like outdoor kind of I don't know how to frame it. >> Rodeos. >> By the way, I went to a rodeo this past Friday night. It was my first rodeo. >> I Yeah. Amazing, right? >> It was amazing. I I had like the best time >> and that's I think that's why I I brought it up because I had It was amazing. But like I was like thinking like he is speaking to this demographic.

Yes. And that demographic is actually all well it's also all of middle America. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> It's like it's like country music central. You know what I mean? Like this is these are the people who are buying your products online. >> So don't discount the JB Mooneyies. You probably need to find 10 more of them instead of the blond blondhaired stay at home >> moms. That's right. And what I also think is like the mistake we made at Kao after that was that we we were looking, okay, what's the next CrossFit for us?

And what we ended up doing was spreading budget out into like four different spaces >> and we're not very targeted about it. >> Yeah. It was like it was like we did some surf because we saw some use case there. We did some >> uh like sort of I would call it Pacific Northwest outdoors like rock climbers, you know, that kind of thing. We did some southern outdoors hunting and fishing more, you know. >> Um >> and did the southern one work better? like cuz I think >> well I don't think any of them works that great and it was at the time you know and it was because it was because it was sort of half-hearted efforts in a lot of places instead of saying we're going to really push in to to the place that we that we really could go and say okay we're going to do crossfit again in the community but I bring this point up all the time I think it's really helpful and the way you just said it is right which is find that community that you really want to resonate in and use influencer for trust building in that it signals that we are we are really a part of your community you can do micro You can do medium, you could do JB Mooney, you know, the the Michael Jordan of the space.

You can do everybody in there and at varying price levels and all that. And I I think it's I think it's really good. And then go show up to the events and go, you know, support the charities that they care about like all do all the things. I that's and influencers a critical part of that. I think, you know, you're not really in the space if the people who are the best at it in your space >> or or who are the biggest names in it don't use your product.

You're not really there. >> Yeah. >> True. >> Yeah. >> So, okay. So >> good stuff. >> So keep going. So the >> I love some bull riding references. >> Yeah. Yeah. So go up. I mean that that dude's unbelievable. He there's a little documentary about him on YouTube. It's like it's it's like I've ever seen. >> Yeah. >> Oh, I'm glad that you know about him. I didn't know if anyone knew. I guess they do. I I just haven't really revisited >> uh his profile in a while. >> I've I saw the documentary once and it was like Yeah.

I think it's just interesting to watch anybody who's amazing at anything do their thing, you know, >> and they're just locked in. >> Yeah. to see kind of what his deal was. It was really cool. Um anyway, the uh Yeah. Um >> Oh, upscale to 30 million. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, so okay. So, you're getting bigger names, you're paying them more, you're getting shorter usage rights, but you're getting the organic posts as well. You think there's real value in the organic posts.

It's not going to be probably a >> you make a bunch of revenue on that post necessarily. It's going to be like a broader brand longevity thing, something like that. you're thinking at it as 15K per month at that stage which is like you're basically just allocating some amount of budget to get those deals going and you're just kind of building steadily over time in that space. >> Yep. Exactly. >> Any anything else about those deals that you think is different when you get to that stage? >> I just think 10 to 30 million a year you have figured out what works on paid and like let's put gas on the fire there.

But also, let's make sure that people don't feel like we're a scam when they come to our Instagram account. >> Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. >> I mean, it's amazing how many brands get to eight figures on just Meta and like just through UGC creators and static image ads and whatever. Like, it's 100% possible to do that and like to go to your Instagram profile and it's like you haven't posted in like two years. Like literally, I have clients who they come to us and they're like, "Yeah, we did $30 million last year and I go to I like can't find their Instagram." I'm like, "What?

What's your Instagram account?" Because I just like want to see what kind of content you had there. I click in there and it's like they haven't posted in like a year and a half. And it's it's like an old logo in the profile of IG. Like those things are kind of like to me are just like an immediate like, "Hey, can we please just like let's work with some influencers? You don't have to even post every day, but just like update the profile because there's so many people who are clicking who, you know, you look at your like outbound click-through rate all the time, right?

Like on meta, like you're looking at who are they clicking to the website? Like the the 3% clickthrough rate, like the 1% that's actually going to the website, the other 2%, you know, 66% of them are clicking to your IG and they're looking to see what kind of content you're posting there. just having trustworthy figures >> and like maybe you're in the supplement space and maybe you have, you know, some kind of doctor or physician that's like recommending your product.

It's just like another great placement for trust. You don't have to I'm not trying to be the brand awareness guy. >> I'm trying to be the trust guy to where let's at least update them. So that's just one thing I would say is like >> that that's just a common occurrence I think in DTOC land is neglect all brand marketing go 100% DR and I completely respect it but just I think that that at that stage make sure you're like let's do some more brand plays so that people know that you're not a scam.

Yeah, I think that's right. I think that's right. And the problem with that approach too is that like is that it it assumes to do that you have to be a 95th percentile DR marketer to do it on DR forever >> like and and by definition most people are not right. So >> yeah. So, so if you're gonna go just endless DR into oblivion, then great as long as you are incredible at offers and testing and creative volume and just like all of but you have to be incredible at it.

Um, and so if you are great, double double down on your skills that you're incredible at, but most people are actually not. And I just don't think it's what most most brands ought to actually be doing. >> Um, yeah, let's do really fast above 30 million and just sort of how these deals change above that. We're we're just about out of time, but I do want to I I think this is a smaller segment of of of the my listeners again sort of by definition of the market, but I think it's still helpful for the people to think about how does this change again when you get into the sort of that stage of things, how should be should be thinking about influencers then. >> Yeah, 100%.

I would say they're 30 million plus like you know I think I still think that at 30 million like you know this is kind of a broad range but like at 30 million it's different than if you're a billion dollar brand but generally speaking you can afford to spend 30k a month on influencer like you can afford to spend $1,000 a day like every month on influencer marketing like to me I've been the head of growth at a mid eight figure brand and like to me a testing budget is $1,000 a Okay.

Yeah, when I was testing into Snap or if I was testing into Pinterest or whatever, maybe now nowadays it's applo. I've never been in the inside of App Leven because I'm just, >> you know, brand marketing Josh, but I'm going back to Dr. >> I'm going back to Dr. Durham is is really what I'm trying to get back to [laughter] my roots. And so, you know, that's like a testing budget. 30K a month is just testing budget. So, >> I [clears throat] think a minimum is spending 30k a month.

Let's let's do that for paper post. Let's do that for, you know, whitelisting. But I think that the most important thing is that influencer is a part of your overall strategy. It's not living on an island and you're not treating it like 2015 influencer marketing where I spend $1,000 and I hope to get $5,000 back from that same post. We're treating it as brand building, organic awareness, cheap uh cheap CPMs, content usage, and ultimately, you know, is becoming a content flywheel for paid social, for for Meta, for Tik Tok, for any channel that you're on.

We even have clients that we're working with on specifically on like YouTube reviews, like even like Reddit reviews. Like you can like work with influencers on like all sorts of different channels that are part of like, you know, the buying matrix to where you know they discover you on Instagram, they search you on Google, but they right there there's a there's a YouTube review from an influencer. So, I think it's just about being more strategic with that budget and also just let's increase the volume. like you need you need a lot of volume to see any kind of incremental lift.

So I think that u spending that kind of money is you know is fairly simple like one of our I'll say we kind of have been DTOC focused but you know a bit a growing part of our you know client portfolio is CPG brands and so we've had some really great case studies this past year. One of them is uh Owen which is like a vegan protein shake. Yeah. And so we helped support them in a Costco launch for a three-month period. And we're sending influencers into Costco and we generated like 15 million organic impressions, $8 CPMs for that trial.

And then they got that Costco trial extended. And now they're probably going to be in every single Costco. And same thing with PopSmith. >> They, you know, they had inventory that they need to sell on Costco.com. We work with them literally on just like a one-mon campaign, which we like never do. I just really like Dave. He's been he's been a longtime consulting client. >> I had I had lunch with Tal last week. Great people. >> Oh, nice.

That's awesome. And so, we like whitelisted, you know, five or 10 uh influencers to run ads to costco.com and and help sell out of all that inventory. So, there's just like I think it's kind of endless how you can use influencers. I just think that you have to be strategic in how you're using them. Are you using them to push retail sales? Are you using them to push DTOC sales? Are you using them for your next product launch?

I think that just incorporating them into your content calendar is super important. >> Yeah, influencers have influence. That's the whole point, right? So, like finding finding a way to leverage the influence uh is uh >> and they're probably not getting they're probably they are severely underattributed. I still believe that they're super underattributed. Like that's interesting. >> I saw uh one of my favorite influencers actually uh Taylor Holidayiday was tweeting about this is I love uh Devon Leesque on Instagram. >> Okay.

I've I've purchased like several different products because of Devon >> and like one of them one time he stayed at uh I I went down to like a conference in Miami and he I saw that he had stayed at the one hotel in Miami. I literally bought an $800 a night hotel room from Devon and there was no UTM tracking or discount code that was there like but I did like that's how I I bought it. I've also bought, you know, a lot of his supplement products that I've literally, you know, swiped up on an IG story, that kind of thing.

So, there might be some link tracking there, but often, you know, but if I reorder, you know, I'm buying on Amazon. And so, just I don't know. I just think that I think influence still severely underattributed. >> You're never going to be able to figure that out with an incrementality study either. It's just it's just not going to work that way. It's it's where like the bank account is the ultimate attribution software, you know, ultimately those deals are >> and post-purchase surveys I still think are great.

Although >> Yeah. Yeah. >> You know, I don't know where I heard from you, but I think that they're helpful directionally. >> Yeah, I agree. Um Josh, uh you if people want to work with you to have you handle some of these processes and things like that and walk them through that, they should go to alignedgrowthmanagement.com. The link for that is in the show notes >> to uh to go just take an intake call, see if see if uh Josh and Steve are a fit for you. >> Um they are Josh I've known for a long time uh now in this space. like he said, we've both been here been been around it for a little while and uh I'm big fan.

So, um I actually can't believe it's the first podcast. I don't I made a mistake by >> I asked you. You like wouldn't let me for years, but now you let me in. >> Did I not let you? Sorry. I don't know why I didn't do that. >> It's fine. I only I only cried about it for 30 minutes. >> Okay, good. Good. [laughter] Um x.comj Josh Jurham is the actual URL for Josh's ex account, Josh. Durham. Um, and uh, and then there's a couple free guides that you have uh, you've given me to send out for access.

The ultimate influencer marketing guide, the complete influencer whitelisting guide, both free from Josh and from his team. Exactly. Uh, the information they can pass along to you about how they do it and how you should do it, too. All the links for all of those things are in the show notes. You should go to all of them. Go follow them. >> Go to the guides. >> The guides especially, they are so good. >> They are like I've had like people tell me all the time that they love our guides.

Like that they're really well written. We didn't use like AI to write the whole thing. Like it's literally like one is one of them is like 33 pages of just like you could run your influencer program inhouse just going through that one PDF. So definitely check it out. >> Awesome. While you're at it, uh if you have questions or comments uh for Josh in this, put them in this in this link, particularly if you're on YouTube.

Um I will make sure that they get to Josh if they get there. I can't promise you that Josh will respond, but I can promise that I will send send them to him. So, um, so that, so I'll make sure that he can he can see that and he can interact with you there. So, go ahead and leave a comment, leave a question, um, and see if we can get Josh's input there. And of course, subscribe while you're watching or listening, wherever you're doing that, uh, to make sure not miss out on any content I've got in the future.

Josh, thanks so much, man. >> Thank you, Andrew. Good to see you and thanks for having me always. Yep. [music] >> Big thanks to Josh. I loved that episode. I learned a lot. validated some things I already thought but reminded me and gave me clarity on some things that I um kind of hadn't come back to for a little while immediately uh when we hung up started talking to Josh about how my clients could be working with aligned or could be um thinking about how to handle some of these things internally whether whether they're working with aligned or not but go check out aligned if you if you're trying to scale up your influencer program you can hear Josh's thoughtfulness he's been down this game for a long time aligned management.com like I said the link for that's in the show notes get on a call see if they are right for you whatever stage of business you're at you see they do all kinds of stuff for all kinds of business sizes big thanks to for those things.

The links for everything are in the show notes. Go to ajfgrowth.com, sign up for my email list there on the popup or in the footer. I'm going to send you my four free essential e-commerce resources. I could I'd also love to hear a little bit about your business if you're interested in working with me and my team for growth. There's a intake form on the website. Fill it out. Tell me a bit about your business. I'll get back to you there.

You can also email me at podcastfgrowth.com with any questions, thoughts, anything like that that you have. Big thanks to more staffing. Go to morstaffing.co / aaf to get started talking to them about extending your team in the Philippines and also rich panel richpanel.com to go get incredible AI AI built customer service software AI first customer service software uh that very large brands are using very small brands are using and everybody in between can scale with you wherever your team is at.

Go to richpanel.com check that out. Thanks so much for watching or listening. A bunch of great episodes are coming. Don't forget to subscribe. Taylor Holidayiday is coming over to my house in a couple days to record at the time of recording this to record uh an episode. Probably will be recorded by the time this comes out. I've got Patrick coming back soon of course to talk about what's going on with our business and maybe a co-in with Patrick with somebody building some really cool creative strategy uh with AI.

That will be a really fun one. And then Sharina Bear's coming back. Connor McDonald from Ridge. Rob Fraser from Outway Socks. A bunch of really good episodes coming. Don't miss any of them by subscribing. So subscribe so you don't miss any of them. That's what I'm trying to say. You get it. You know what to do. You've seen internet content before.