Real Meta Ad Account Breakdown: Fixing Zollie's Declining Spend transcript

This is an episode of the Intered Ferris podcast unlike anything I've done for a long time. Sarah Resnick from the brand Zali, which she will explain more in a minute, reached out to me and asked if I could look at her ad account. She said, "Uh, hey, we've gone way backwards in spend. I'm trying to understand what happened. Can you audit it in some way? And if you do, you can show all of it to your audience on the Interference podcast." So, you can watch this episode and you see the actual ad account that Sarah and her brand have.

And I went through it live, audited the account and tried to figure out why her spend had gone backwards so far, what she could do to move it back forwards. Did she have a structural problem, a media buying problem? Did she have a creative problem? Is there something broken in her meta account? What is going on in her ad account? And in that, I show her actual ad account. I show exactly how I audit an ad account to look for problems like this.

I went through the whole problem solution setup. Sarah's on the call with me so she can answer some of my questions along the way and fill me in on some of the gaps in the brand and uh even show her Shopify account to show how her revenue is phased with her ad account. Just a really close look at a real ad account to look at where does she need to go. And by the end, I was convinced that Sarah has a real opportunity on her hands to push her business forward. and [music] it's in some surprising ways relative to what she came to me with.

Uh, I think this episode is going to be very helpful for you. You probably want to watch this on video. I'm going to publish it on audio. I tried to talk through everything I was doing as I was doing it. But, uh, this is one of those ones where video is probably best. Let's get into it with Sarah Resnik from Zali actually auditing her ad account live. Me showing you the entire process I look at to figure out if something is broken or what she needs to do.

Let's do it. >> Hello, Sarah. >> Hi. >> Hi, Andrew. I'm good. Thanks for having me on. >> Good. Yes. Uh, thanks for doing this. Thanks for being willing to show your ad account to the people. People love content like this where you actually break down what's actually happening. And like I said in the intro, which you heard me record, I am I'm nervous about this. I I I like it's funny. I have a process that I use for this sort of thing all the time, and I'm going to show people how I would approach this problem in general.

But u but uh still like try hopefully we'll be some help. We'll see. >> I think it will. I appreciate um getting to come on and I love listening to your content and it has helped a lot as I have worked on the businesses. >> Thank you. Okay, let's do a couple things uh in advance and my my hope is that basically we can give people a little context for both what the business is and what the problem is. People who might have heard you before a long time ago on my opening the books episode with you um uh might know your business but uh but it's been a little while.

So, let's give tell people about what Zulli is and then um and then my basic plan here is I'm going to work live, show you what I'm doing, talk out loud, and ask you context questions along the way, the kind of things that I would want to know. Um so, so we'll see how this goes. Um but tell people about Zali, Sarah, and what the business is, uh and what Pallet Scout is and all that. >> Sure. So, uh Zali makes playful color tools to inspire makers and help people choose colors confidently.

So, this is Pallet Scout. This is our hero product. We launched it about a year and a half ago, and it's a deck of 180 colors, and it teaches people to mix and match them into pleasing color palettes, using color theory, but you don't have to know color theory to be able to use it. So, I also own a yarn company and in that line of work really find that people struggle with confidence in choosing colors. And so, that is what inspired us to create this product.

We also have um like a companion companion deck, the toolkit that we launched in the fall of last year and that has um challenge cards and teaches people more deeply about color theory. We have the companion sticker pack and we have a lot of digital products that go along to enhance people's learning and that is relevant because a lot of what we're selling um is bundles of digital and physical products together. So that's a lot about how we think about uh driving revenue in our company.

So that's what we do at Zali. >> Amazing. Um and uh Okay. And so now give me a little bit more context about uh the ad account problems that you have had. This is just to give people a sense of how I'm thinking about this. Almost anytime anybody comes to me and says like, "Hey Andrew, I'm interested in having you work on the business. consult with me, be an AJF growth client, whatever it is. The first question I ask is I basically ask them, give me a sense of the revenue of the business.

And Sarah, you can be as clear or as vague as possible. I the point of the question is to get some context for how the business is overall doing, where it spend is at, and that will also trigger for me a sense of what kind of resources you have available towards things like creative when we get to that point. So uh so understanding kind of where your revenue is at tends to tell me a little bit about kind of the state of the business more than more than anything else.

And then give me also the uh TTM like trail 12-month ad spend uh generally and maybe more specifically the challenges you are trying to solve and the reason you sort of contacted me about this. So so that kind of context will be really helpful. And anytime I'm ever looking at an ad account, I always know this stuff going in before I ever look because you just can't really help somebody if you don't know where they've been and where they're trying to get to.

So, um, so give me some of that stuff. >> Totally. Uh, so last year we did 730,000 of gross revenue. >> We spent 327,000 on advertising. That's all on Meta. Um, our net margins before our gross part profit before advertising is 73%. So we have pretty strong margin structure with digital and physical. >> Is that landed to the customer or is that before you ship it? >> Yeah, landed to the customer. So in awesome. That's fantastic.

Yeah. Um because we sell a mix of digital and physical products. Um so I think I'm really happy with the gross profit numbers and I would say that >> the the contribution profit of 28% after advertising is something that we need to work on. >> Um we had uh you asked for tw trailing 12 months. I don't have that, but I have we spent 327 in 2025 and then in 202 >> for Q1 2026 we spent on advertising um 61,000. So like our ad spend has gone way down.

So that is why I reached out to you. >> Say those numbers again. >> Uh so last year we spent on advertising for Zali 327,000. >> Yeah. So in four quarters almost all of that was in Q4. So we spent 184 in Q4 and we spent 40 to 60 the other >> uh sorry uh yes 40 to 60 the other quarters and then in Q1 of this year we spent >> 60,000 again. Okay. Um, so we are, you know, like it's Q4, so obviously we're going to spend more, but we were spending5 $6,000 a day for like a good part of December and the end of November, and we have now been back to spending like one to two $1 to $300 a day. >> Um, okay. >> Yeah.

So like way way down. Um, and we like I know that there's some seasonality to this, but I don't believe that it should be that much. Like I think that we can be having a higher spend on Meta. We are seeing like really high sell through for this product in Blick art supply stores and wholesale stores. We have great reviews. Like I think that this product I know that this product resonates with people and um I'm curious if there are changes that we should make to how we're thinking about creative and how we're thinking about ad account structure to do better. >> Yeah.

Okay. So so let me just tell you what goes through my mind when I hear all that. First is you're at a very hard stage of business because you have well first of all it's elite gross margins. So that's the very first thing I think which is great. The digital component of it is so beautiful. It makes inventory management fantastic. Um I think that's great. Secondly um yeah so the the margin thing is is a is a really really awesome win.

But secondly you're still at a really hard stage of business because whatever the answer to this is there's just no way you are just sitting on boatloads of cash resources to go solve all these problems. is like like I think the sort of like 500k to 3 million or something like that is a really tough stage of business because uh you're growing and getting more ability to grow with ads and things like that, you know, and it's starting to open up.

The problem is you still have to kind of do everything yourself. Like it's just really hard to find great resourcing to do this. I'll be curious how that keeps developing. So that's just the first thing that goes in my mind. The second thing is when I hear the the ad spend numbers you're talking about, my initial immediate reaction is that you have like insane seasonality, which I think is is actually very possible in this business that you you function like >> like a borderline Christmas tree business, you know what I mean?

Um where it's like super super holiday oriented. I think that's probably a little unlikely. And I'm actually surprised because we're recording this on May 11th. Uh I'm actually surprised to hear that it didn't pick up just from Mother's Day a little bit. It's not like a perfect Mother's Day gift, you know, but there's sometimes a moment like that that if you're seeing those low spend levels over those even those weeks, I I don't know.

I could imagine it being something that for the maker type mom that this could be a really cool thing. It Yeah, it's not quite I like I don't hear this the wrong way. It's not quite like sweet enough to be like a true true Mother's Day gift, I think. But um but that's that's like another thing that occurs to me. Either way, your spend now and in holiday needs to go up. And so whether or not even even if we come out of this audit and say uh yeah there's actually nothing wrong >> uh structure wise or whatever you just are super seasonal.

I would still say but you can't be so seasonal that you can only spend $100 or $300 a day. >> Yeah. >> Like there's there's still improve even if there's nothing like quote unquote wrong even if I open your ad account and it's perfect uh structurally I will say well we still have to solve the problem which is how do you grow this business with ads you know. So, let me just say two things to that. First of all, we did spend $1,000 yesterday on Mother's Day.

We were not running any particular creative related to Mother's Day. So, like I think we we have seen it go up a bit. >> Um I I don't know if it's related to that. We just keep putting in new creative. So, um and then the other thing related to the resources. So, I think it's definitely true related to the size of the company, but what we have going for us is that we are a sister brand. So, I have another company that I started nine years ago.

It's the same team that's running both. And so I have more resources I think than most people would at that sort of contribution revenue and really really smart creative people that work in that. >> I was just going to say also because you're selling art type things. I bet you are swimming in creative and clever people for making cool stuff on the internet. >> Absolutely. Yeah. >> Yeah. That's awesome. Okay. All right.

Let's pull up the ad account and see what we can get to. I I don't know. I may build some reports live. I don't know. Like I said, I actually fully feel nervous about this. This is funny, but I promise I have not looked at this at all. Um, and so >> I literally shared it an hour and a half ago. So, >> yeah. Yeah. Well, you first gave me we talked about the ad account before, you know, and I was like, I won't look at it until because I want people to see kind of how I'm thinking about this this problem.

All right, let's look at this ad account. All right, I have here the Zeliat account. I'm going to zoom in a little bit on it. Uh the very first thing I'm actually going to do is I'm going to uh I'm going to uh get my columns right. And this is so obvious when you think about it, but uh the drop basic drop down columns are not the columns that I would actually use. I have a string. I'm actually share my screen for this as well.

I have a pre-saved Oh, can you see this? Oh, great. You can. Great. Um, I have a a pre-saved column set here. And anybody who's looking at this can also see that I have in this uh some media, some some tactics just kind of pre-built into my own audit template. This is uh this is AJFoss, by the way. This is like our custom operating system for our agency that Patrick, my co-founder or my my business partner, not co-founder, but but business partner built, which is pretty cool.

So, a little look in there. And then I'm going to take copy that string and I'm going to paste it right here in the URL string. So, I'm just going to if you if you look there, you can see like I found the part where it says and columns right here. I'm just going to grab that whole thing. Paste over it. And now we've got my column setup. Uh the and that is really convenient. Uh I put that col those my columns if you want them that URL string that I have there.

I'm putting it in the show notes for this episode. So, if nothing else, great. >> You can have my columns. Uh it'll be at the very bottom. You can copy and paste that same thing. It's exactly what I'm looking at. The one thing that's not in there that I need to add to it is I'm going to actually add uh the oneday engagement uh attribution to this as well. And uh and the reason for that is that very recently mid-March, Meta updated, as people know uh updated their um click attribution settings to where now engage conversions is uh is is a separate column.

Whereas it used to be the case that if you did click attribution, if somebody clicked on your ad and uh and they were clicking over to your like Instagram profile or something, so they weren't actually clicking through the ad, they were clicking to your to a different place. Um or if they shared the ad or commented on it or something like that, those things would all count as a click on the ad and so therefore they would count as click attributed purchases.

Uh they uh they changed that. No, those are now called engagements. And so engaged through um conversions are a separate thing and it does change though. We got to think about attribution just a little bit. So Sarah, were you familiar with that before we before I just mentioned all that? It got mostly around I think. But yeah. >> Yes, I was. And you'll see as you get into our adsets that like the most recent adsets that I've been working on, I changed our settings to include engage through or like the the the one day um even though before I didn't.

So that is I haven't like reset and rebuilt everything cuz I'm a little nervous to turn off things that have uh what's called you know that are working but yeah uh the I yes I we since April have been using >> uh okay uh yes thank you Sarah okay I'm glad to hear that that news had gotten to you um the I I figure as much you were nodding along as I was saying that but just just in case people didn't know it is a big deal actually it changed the way your reporting works bunch.

It's going to actually screw up our historical reporting a little bit. It's annoying to me. I understand why I did it, but it's annoying. Okay, the other thing I'm going to do really fast, by the way, is I'm going to save this. Okay, I'm going to just call this save this as Zali right here. I'm going to save this view of things so that we have it kind of at any given time. All right. Um, so now we've got our column set and all that.

So, let's look. We starting off last 30 days. And uh as far as what my column set is, by the way, I'm going to look last 30 and just see before I even look at any campaigns, just to show you how I'm thinking about this, I just move from left to right to on uh the hierarchy of metrics. So spend, revenue, um conversion data by click. I just want to eliminate any sort of view conversion that's mixed in there. Um and then uh and then you've got all your purchases, the different types of purchases there.

One of the things I'm going to notice here, I've got average uh CPA at average purchases uh conversion value. That's AOV basically. One thing I'm just going to make a little mental note of right now is you're looking at roughly an $80 AOV. Sarah, while we're talking that what is included in that $80 80 72 to $80 here like >> like what products you mean? >> Yeah. Yeah. What what what is made up in in there? Yeah. >> Yeah.

So the core deck that we sell is a $30 price point. We use most customers buy both of these together and then they'll buy some bundle of other digital products to go with it and they'll pay $10 for shipper. Interesting. Okay. Um Okay, great. Uh that is good to know. So that's a lot of customers are buying more than just the core deck. This AOV, the reason I asked is that given what Pallet Scout is, it was higher than I expected the AOV to be, which I think is an interesting thing. >> Yeah.

So it might be helpful for you to take a look at our landing pages and see how we're structuring bundles. But this is entirely a bundle driven business. >> For sure. Will um Okay. So let's look at a couple other things here. The the other thing that's going to jump off page to me right away is the frequency is pretty high on for the last 30 days given how low your spend is. >> And this actually gets into something I've put out some recent episodes about which is the notion of CPMR.

The idea of like um uh cost to reach a thousand people uh not just cost per thousand impressions but actually reaching people. Uh at at your uh price or at your uh spend level you're you're you're paying a lot to reach these people. And my guess is that that's for two reasons. One of them is that you are kind of a nichy product to begin with. And I think one of the questions in to inherently in this business and and this is something I know from talking to you before is that like you are I mean you're selling yarn in another business.

I remember you describing that business to me at the time as a business that was really for like a kind of like I said a nichy creator like like yarn people they have to be weavers, right? Uh you're selling to weavers. Yeah. So weavers are going to be like a you're pretty deep if you're a weaver, right? Like it's a it's more of a niche kind of craftiness and in creatorness. I craft might even not be the right word and I apologize if it's not, but yeah. >> Yeah.

Okay. Um, and so what I'm wondering is if Pallet Scout is immediately hitting the same thing where like it's really appealing not to a super broad audience of creators, which I think is probably what you want it to appeal to is like almost anybody being creative, but uh but is actually appealing to uh to a sort of nichy super creator, like really really enthusiast kind of person. Do you have any thoughts about that? Yeah.

So, it's definitely true that weaving, which is my other business, is a small industry, but the with Pallet Scout, we're, you know, we see quilters buying this, which is a huge industry of hobbyist, quilters, we see knitts, uh, interior designers. There's like a much wider range of people that we see in our post-purchase surveys are buying them. So like for context, I was at an industry trade show last week of yarn and um fabric wholesale businesses and there were 700 businesses exhibiting wholesale.

So like I think it's a big industry. There's a lot of makers. Yeah. >> Yeah. So So yeah, makers. I kept trying to find that word a second ago. I keep saying creators. Um makers is the word I was looking for. Makers. Um >> I'm I'm aware that makers is a huge industry. I what I was what I'm wondering is if is if is if at least is currently constituted if Z is really appealing to a a narrow group within that larger group, you know.

Um and uh that in some ways I like I see the vision for this product. It feels to me like a product that should reach pretty far and wide, really help people. But um yeah. >> No, I think that's a really good point. Yeah. And like clearly so far I think we're getting people that are more except for potentially in Q4 where it's more like oh that seems like a good gift for a maker. I think the people that we're getting the rest of the year are probably much more deep into their craft than like a general crafter.

So I think it's possible and something that we could work on. Yeah. >> Yeah. So the So my take on CPMR is I put it in recent episodes and people can go back and listen to those. There's a few of them that I've done. Uh this would be episodes from early May. You'll see me talk about a couple of these things. But my take on it is that uh is that it's mo almost over almost almost entirely I don't know. It's overwhelmingly a creative issue at this stage, which is to say creative is targeting in meta.

And so if you're reaching the same people over and over again, my immediate instinct here is that you're not speaking to enough people clearly enough for meta to extend the reach of your ads, which is both a which which means reach is a symptom of a core creative problem. And therefore, reach is actually just another way of referring to a problem of performance. It's it's it's like saying it's like saying exactly what you uh >> uh said to me to start this thing, which is we're not spending enough money and we can't seem to spend more money.

That's one way of approaching that problem is that it's a ghost in the machine problem with meta. That meta is sort of like doing something wrong at the level of signal. But I think that's rare and that it mostly only happens for very large brands who are working across very different categories, things like that. I think that actually most times this is solved by speaking to more people more specifically and directly.

Um actually you just said a few of them which is like Quilter might approach this uh product. Now I have I have not looked at any of the ads yet so I have no idea what your ads actually look like. Literally I have no idea. So, uh, so, so you might be like, "Ah, we've done that." But, um, but when I hear qu when I hear that, it's a quilter might be really thinking about this different than Weaver than, um, than interior designer.

And thinking about how that person how those different people are going to interact with this product differently, I think could could be that's just like just a little thing I want to flag as as like a thing here. Okay. >> Um, all right. So, let's let's use my my little uh my template here and look at a few things. So, um, so, so manual bids, does it leverage manual bids? Um, uh, actually I'm jumping ahead of myself.

The next thing I want to do is understand a little bit more of the actual spend for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for this account. So, what I'm going to do next is I'm going to quickly throw together some ads reporting here to see if I can get my head around really the true element of this. Um, all right. So, I'm building this report. I'm going to just call this Zulli monthly ad spend. Uh, and I'm going to pull up the Zulli account here.

We're going to create this report, and I'm going to do something that is crazy annoying uh to do live, but I'm going to get rid of literally every column for a minute here. Uh, and I there's probably somebody please comment on this episode and tell me if I'm doing this a dumb way because I have to do this all the time and it is crazy annoying. So, okay, we're going to do that. Amount spent. We're going to go grab a monthly breakdown of the amount spent.

I'm gonna get purchase conversion value as well. Um, take this. And then I also want an attribution setting that I want, which is going to be 28 day click. There's going to be some annoyances with that with recent attribution changes, but it'll work. And then I'm going to go through, let's do a two-year look back. uh for now. I don't even know if you guys were advertising then because I don't remember when we first talked about I remember we tal first talked when you were about to release this product Sarah but >> you know I think it would be most helpful we we were advertising products that were not Pallet Scout before.

So do you want to just start with looking at Pallet Scout? >> Okay. Well uh yes. When did Pallet Scout start? >> That would be like August not last summer but the summer before. So August 2024. >> Okay. So great. Okay, we'll go to August 24. We So, we didn't we didn't overshoot it by too much, but here we go. All right. So, so the thing that jumps off this page when you look at it right away is exactly what you said, which is that in uh December, you guys spent $141,000, whereas the rest of these months, you just really have nowhere anywhere close to that.

I think it's actually fascinating that you even think of this as sort of like a quote unquote recent problem at in any way. Um it looks to me like in fact this has kind of gone on for a little while. Although you were better back Oh, that's December. What about like January 2025? This is an interesting time period to look at. October of last year. You definitely were spending more over these time periods. And the return is pretty similar.

You're looking at like a one and a half rowass something like that. And actually, yeah, it's actually been worse recently, huh? March. >> Yeah, that's March and April. It's worse. Yes, I see that. >> Um I'm going to do this really fast as well. While I'm doing a little export here and some of that, can you talk more about um on those older time periods like let's say uh October 2025 and let's say January February 2025 was that pretty much all Pallet Scout? >> Yeah.

So, this business is entirely driven by Pallet Scout and the related products. Um >> Okay. And we launched this this we brought our AOV up $10 when we launched the toolkit in October of 2025. So I and then we launched another sticker pack like another physical product in March. So we should be like our AOV should be up higher, but we should be doing better. And so a lot of last year we were like we're brand new. We're focusing on building out new products so that we can grow this.

And I think we now have a wide enough like line of things to put into bundles that we should be able to be spending more and performing more. >> Okay. Uh oh, that's too far back. >> But I'm I'm interested in your insights. I mean, my other business is is not seasonal like this at all and is also not at all driven by meta. So I I don't really have like a frame of reference of whether this is common. >> Yeah. Um, yeah.

I think I mean my immediate thought here right away is like you need to start planning for holidays sooner than later. Like what I mean is like assume that you're going to hit when that happened. In fact, did you run out of inventory? Like cuz it's such a stark thing. It jumps off the page so much that you did so much money then >> like how did that hit you relative to your expectations? >> I mean that was way higher than I expected we would do.

And we did we didn't run out of inventory in December, but we ran out in January. So that's the other thing. Like the last couple months we restocked in March of our companion deck. Um but we I think we lost a lot of the momentum that we had from December. Um when we stocked up of that product because then our AOV went down by $10. >> Okay. Um that's interesting. >> Yeah. >> So wait, say that last part again. So you had Sorry, I was trying to do two things at once, talk to you at the same time.

So, so you uh you ran out of inventory, you said uh >> in December. We were fine in December, but we ran out of our companion deck, which is what we co-arket it with, which raises our AOV. Um, and also people were just kind of hanging around waiting for that to be back in stock, and that did not come back in stock until the end of March. >> So, I thought we would start to do better in April once we had this in stock.

Um, >> okay. >> Yeah, but we have >> That's a helpful note. I'm actually gonna do something really fast here, which is I'm going to reexport this data one more time with purchases so I can see if I see that AOV thing. This is one of those things that is helpful. Like if I was doing all my audits while talking to somebody, those are the little context things that show up. Uh I probably would have intuited that you were going to run out of inventory either way because you just can't go as big as you went relative to where you were with no history of it and not run out of inventory.

You know, like that this 141 is just so massive relative to anything else that there's no way you were predicting it. But again, I will flag right away um like if you're doing 6x your October November spend in December, that tells you something about your customers, at least as it currently >> is sort of constituted, right? Like it it's a it definitely means something about the business. >> Um so yeah. >> Yeah. And we're right now I mean we need to make our inventory plans by the end of May for Q4.

So we are trying to figure out right now how much to buy with this year. >> You is that it's because you're that's how much time you have to give your manufacturer. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> That's a long time. >> It is a long time. But I also don't think we would necessarily have more given the history here. I don't think we're going to have more information by August or September because so far we've been so seasonal. But anyway, it it's it's where we're at.

So >> Okay. Um Okay. I'm going to just make sure. I'm going to pull May so far as well just so I have it. Mhm. >> Looks like it's maybe a little better in May. >> It is. Yeah, we've been doing better in May. >> That's great. And let's see. Let's see how many purchases. 109 there. Okay. Yeah. So, there's the there's the AOV thing right here, right? Which is that you're out of it January, February, March. So, okay. So, that's one of the problems.

My creative team at AJF Growth is staffed basically entirely, not basically, entirely through the good people at Behind the Scenes Studio, BTS Studio. Behind the Scenes Studio is a Philippines-based creative meta ads focused agency that the whole thing they do is they make ads, designers, artists, creative strategists who make ads so that you can extend your team with great quality designers and editors who are who are really first and foremost thinking about how to make a high volume of high quality, highly diverse creative, the kind of stuff that I preach all the time.

The reason they are doing the kinds of things that I preach all the time is because there's they're really kind of almost a sister company of AF Growth in a lot of ways. They they are hearing the things that I'm doing. They're seeing what we're doing with our clients. They're putting those things into practice and they actually supply my creative team. So, I I'm really tight with these people. I'm a really big fan of what they're doing.

You should consider using them for your creative team as well. If you need to extend your team, you have a good sense of where you're trying to go as a brand and you need more creative firepower to add to your account, you should go to btsstudio.co, co get on the phone with them, see if their solutions are right for you. btsstudio.co to get more and better meta ads creative in your ad account at a reasonable price. All right, so one of the things that for sure happened here is that your your AOV going down really hurts you.

It just it hurt volume a lot. Now, I will say at the same time that it still doesn't really explain everything because if I look actually let's not do Yeah, no, let's do that. Um, if I look at what's happening here, I'm going to notice that like in October, for example, your AOV Oh, no, it was way up. Um, >> that's when we launched the product. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, but still back here, your AOV was fine. It was lower. 60 or $56. >> It was lower.

Yeah. >> And yet you weren't there. So, this definitely has helped you. You can see the recovery in the rorowass like right here, and you start to spend a little bit more. Um, but uh Okay, that's that's uh good to know. All right. Okay, that gives me some sense of the business. I could pull up a bunch of other data about your business right now, but um what I end up doing is just for anybody watching this is that I end up using this sheet for a whole lot of different uh different stuff.

I I'll just use a simple way to get my head around core metrics like total revenue, new customer, return customer. One thing I might be looking for at some point is the question around like is my uh ad spend actually producing more or less revenue than meta says. So that's why I like like to have new customer revenue in here, return customer revenue in here just to see kind of what's really going on in the business. Uh I don't know why these >> Yeah.

And I can share that with you if that would be helpful because it's you know I'm not we're not running at a point 74. >> Yeah. Well, that that's my question. >> But we're we are and which which sort of is also why I wonder if we're having like a a technical issue. I mean, I'm very glad you're auditing our account, but we I have ROAZ set between 1.8 and two and it is consistently like saying that this is where it's delivered at, but um >> okay, >> the revenue is higher. >> Let's do it.

Let's let me show you exactly how I would answer this question because so we might as well just do it right now. So, u this is a report that I put into nearly every um nearly every uh brand that I work on. Uh let's say new customer uh new versus returning customers. So, I'm going to do new customer sales over time. I'm going to take this from the same time period that I had last year. Grab it starting in January. We'll go through yesterday.

By the way, recording this on May 11th, like I said, so at um if we assume that that Yeah. So, you're on pace for about 20 grand in May in spend right now. Uh which is a real recovery from where you were. So, that's a lot because of the stock issue, huh? Because because of being out of stock on an issue, >> I think so. Although, if we were back in stock all of April, like would it make sense that it would take us that long to recover? >> I don't know.

That's tricky. Uh, I'll have to look at it. >> We restocked at the end of March. Yeah. >> All right. So, what I'm going to do is go is not none on this. Get rid of the comparison. And the first thing I'm going to actually do here to make my life easier is I'm going to hit uh actually I'm going to show you exactly how I do this. Okay, we're going to get rid of customers from this report. We're going to do gross sales.

Uh the problem with using total sales is that it is uh a metric that doesn't actually tell you the um the the the true oh whoops the true revenue that you're getting. Um total sales includes taxes. Uh and taxes is not are not revenue. Uh you don't ever see that uh money that money goes to the government. So, um, so what we actually want to do is get to find out the true amount of money that has made it into your actual bank account.

And so I like to build this report like this. So now what I've done is I've got no new or returning customer or no nuns. Uh, nobody who's marked as none, new or returning customer in the business. I've got this by month over a longer period of time. I have new and returning customers separate. By the way, one of the things I'll sort of flag right here is that your returning customer level is very revenue is very low, which is not super surprising.

I think there's some questions about the total business there. I I expected that, but this is pretty low. >> So, you have to really make all your money on first purchase in this business. >> Um, okay. Um, and then what I'm going to do is save this as, and we'll just call it Ferris, new versus returning customer sales. I believe that's saved for you. You can use it however you want. There's my name in your in your Shopify analytics.

You know, >> just a little reminder that we had this call sometime. Okay. And I'm going to do the same thing here. So, I'm going to export this. Somebody is mad at me again right now because there's probably some fancy way to do this with Claude or something like that. Um, but uh I'm uh not that fancy. So, here we go. All right. So, uh so here's the export that I have. I've gone and just sorted this all like this. Um what I'm actually going to do is I don't actually need this order count right now really.

So, I'm just going to use this as a way to sum up these three columns because uh what I actually need is the is gross sales plus shipping minus discounts. That's going to tell me um the actual amount of revenue that we received month over month every single month separated by new and returning customers. Um Sarah, one question I have right away is there's very very little in the way of discounts here. Do you discount at all?

Um, we do bundles that have like a value based discount, but I think the way that the app that we I'm not I'm not sure if they're all pushing in as a discount through Shopify. >> Okay. Yeah, >> got it. >> But no, we don't do sale like we don't email our list and say we have a sale basically except in Q4. So >> why not? >> Um, well, I mean, as you noticed, we're like almost all new customers, so it's almost all through meta.

And I mean, one of the things I would love to talk about as you're auditing our creative is should we do like more of a cadence of that, but I have struggled with figuring out how to do like a timelimited creative like just as it will start to ramp up then the sale is over or whatever. So, we will advertise that like our bundles are a certain percent off, but not like a particular day based sale, but I would love your feedback on that and suggestions.

I don't think your retention is ever going to be monstrous with the with the product mix you have now. I think the path in your business to generating more retention revenue is going to be uh via generating uh uh uh like new product revenue, right? So, you're going to have to send new products to customers and or excuse me, develop new products and customers are going to have to buy those new products. That's the way you're going to generate a bunch of return customer revenue over time.

There's just not going to be a great way to do that with, you know, by selling people five pallet scouts, you know, they're just not going to do it. Yeah. So, and sending more email is not going to solve that problem. Yeah. I think the idea of of clearing your funnel at times is not a terrible idea by finding different offers you can have so you'd sort of have like a >> every so often just see what happens. Do you drive a bunch of new customer revenue via a limited time sale on on this sort of stuff?

Maybe it's just more freebies or or whatever. I would probably play with it unless you have a really really strong brand reason why you think you should never be on sale. I think most brands ought to be doing it. The marketing calendar can just make a really really big difference. So yeah, I' I'd definitely be considering it. >> Yeah, I think that's a good point. And we we are working on like building out more digital products that people will come back to purchase and physical products.

And I also remembered we do do like occasional sales. So we'll do a sale on like Memorial Day and on Labor Day. But >> I I I the the fact that that's to the email list and not always to the ad account. I'm curious when you're if you have like basically a weekl long sale, are you making creative special for that and then just turning all that creative off after the week? >> Uh I am increasingly Yes. I mean, and what we do is we we build a scheduled uh we build a scheduled like report here because or a scheduled ad set where it's like it's turns on a certain day, turns off on a certain date for you.

So, you don't have to go and like >> at midnight when your sale ends or whatever, go turn it off. >> Um, yes. And especially now in in a world of potential mass-built static ads, what we're working on at AF Growth right now is like just for particularly for sale campaigns, having all of that basically automate for us with AI. Uh there's just not a lot of artistry to like putting a big 20% off next to your product and putting that on the internet.

And that's really what sale ads are. Really, really direct, really simple. So yes, I do do that. They have various levels of impact. Sometimes they don't really do anything compared to your evergreen creative and people just convert more in your evergreen creative, but >> Okay. >> Yeah. Um so yeah. All right. That was uh that was a lot to um to just get a report built, but um but it now tells us something about the business.

And when you look at it, like what I would say here is there's nothing obvious to me that jumps out again as like a big problem in this business where you know you've got like some massive amount of revenue that Meta is not capturing or or something like that. Like you look it's pretty clear you you know 74 yeah your rowass probably is underelling your true value creation to some degree but like you definitely got slaughtered uh in in March.

It's not like there's a bunch of revenue in your bank account that you can't attribute to something. >> Yeah. >> Um and that sucks. So, you know, you you have new customer revenue like this. I also always separate out new and returning customer revenue in all these businesses because you um want to think of them as different things except in your business because the returning customer revenue is so low. I would I would be a little less concerned about this because basically if I drive any additional purchases with my ad spend, it's probably pretty incremental because you're just not driving that much return customer revenue to begin with.

So, I'm I'm going to sort of check one thing off the box in my template here, uh, which is like, uh, separating out, uh, existing customer exclusions. Like, I don't even I haven't even checked to see if you have these or not, but I don't really care. It's just not something that's that's that's concerning to me really at all. Um, okay. So, now I have my head a little bit around the business, which is like growing spend back with the AOV going back up because you're fully in stock.

Um, and then let's try to think a little bit more. Is anything actually broken? And so the thing I'm going actually look first at is January and February of last year. Before I even look at anything more recently, I want to see what was happening in the business here to where you had this lower AOV. So you were not you did not have the product mix you have now. And yet you were performing really really well in these in these audiences.

So like what do I what was happening back at that point in the ad account that that made things work? Um and so let me go back to the ad account there and see if I can figure out what was happening there. And I'll show you exactly how I think about this problem. All right. So, if I go back to January and February here, um, you know, the performance here looks pretty good on this campaign. And you've got, let's see, ads set budgets, it looks like.

Um, interesting. You've got a mix here of rowass goals and bid caps. So, you're running manual bids for these ad accounts. Somebody's listened to the Andrew Ferris podcast at some point. Uh, so there we go. Um, which is interesting to see. Not super surprised that you're getting more spend on these campaigns. immediately. One of the things I'll say is that that $32 bid cap even way back here, which doesn't even is not even as relevant anymore, is probably too low relative to the AOV you were at.

Like, yeah, you're producing like a two to one rorowass and your ROS maybe doesn't need to be quite that good, Sarah. Like, I think there's a broader question to me in the business. You have such good margins, but so low LTV that you probably do want a pretty high rorowass approach to your ad account in general because you have to make all your money on first purchase, right? So, so you do need that. So, you don't need that that high rorowass to break even, but if you're going to make money in the business, which is the point, you can't expect any LTV, basically.

So, um, so you have to have something like that. So, so like I said, this is probably too conservative of a of a bid back in here. And I'm not super surprised that your rorowass ads are doing a little bit better. The other thing I'll note here is that let's let's look back in here and see what the new C. Yeah, you were still getting like a 2 to1 AM. So you probably are under reportporting your revenue contribution to some degree in these in in this world because you're getting yeah like I said pretty close to 2 to1 am um on those spends in a way that that uh is um is interesting.

So yeah rorowass bidding back here and it does look like actually in January this year you did pretty well there too. Yeah. >> Um yeah I mean I think we were still riding on the coattails of December to an extent. So like for part of January our spend was still pretty high. I started raising my rorowaz targets because I knew we were gonna stock out. Um, yeah. So, you're also seeing that. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. It looks like that is missing some uh value creation in there.

And yeah, now you've got a CBOT rorowass. Okay. And this looks like it's it's been the thing that's taken over most of the account. >> Yes. Yeah. >> Over that time. Okay. So, the next thing I need to start figuring out is um so you had you've had really no giant structural changes to the ad account. This CBO is different than it was before, but it's still rorowass bidding, etc. So, I'm going to check another thing off my list here in this case, which is manual bids and value optimization.

You've got that. You're pretty much click only. I'm not so worried about incremental ads at this point. You've got some CBO, no creative testing. Um, now let's check, do you have any high spending ads turned off? This is one of the first things that I would be checking at any given time for any ad account. If I look in January and I see what your top spending ads are, a lot of times if I see a decline in spend, then part of the reason why is because somebody took an ad that was on back then and is turned off now.

And the answer is no. All of these ads, there's something here, which is fine. There's one ad turned off. We don't even need to get it a Y, but all these ads are still on in the ad account. So, if I look at this and I go just like last seven days. Great. Uh, yeah, all the ads are still on. That's great. Okay. Okay. You see, you're doing a lot of things the way that I would do them here. >> Well, I do listen to your podcast. >> Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. No interest or look alikes. Uh I'm not going to bother checking this. I'm assuming these are all broad targeted. >> Yeah. >> Okay, great. Um, okay. Camp separated by economic unit is not really an issue in this business because you basically have one core offer that you're making, right? Well, so I want this is what I want us to dive into, which is we have uh landing pages by audience type and the bundles are a little bit different.

It's the same. >> So, here's a quilt out right here. You you were out in front of me already. All right. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. No, we we've been going big on quilting and you can take a look at the quilting landing page and the other landing page. Those are the two main pages that we're driving traffic. And um these are not in separate campaigns. They are on separate adsets. And we are wondering if um we might be having an issue with like people bouncing between first getting a quilting ad then getting on a different landing page kind of like customer confusion if there's anything related to that or just generally you know curious what you think about having things divided by adset. >> Yeah.

Okay. Um I don't think you need to divide by adset for angles or for audiences or anything like that. I think Meta is really good at figuring this kind of thing out and particularly this kind of thing where there's there's actually real overlap here. There's this question of like do you need to have is Meta's signal a problem to be solved or is it working for you? Is it like a value ad? My answer to that in this case is that like it's very unlikely to me that you have to like signal engineer your way out of this uh problem.

Like like what I mean is like you probably can put quilting ads and weaving ads and whatever other makers you want to have all in the same campaigns even in the same adsets as long as the AOV and the economic user units are about the same. One advantage you have is that your adsets or is that your product like is your your skew your skew mix is so simple, right? It's like a couple of products and that's it. So you don't have like like I have a I have an account right now that has you know product A has a $400 AOV, product B has 200, product C is 90 and so like sorting all those things out and they all have variations and all these different things.

So sort of getting all those things into different adsets is a really really big deal especially with manual bids because you have to be able to give Meta more room to spend on the $400 product versus the $200 product, right? Because the CAC is so different on those. So in your case, you don't have any of that complexity. So there's a question of like do you have a targeting problem? And here's my prior on this. My prior is until it's very very clear that you do, you probably don't. >> Um and and so what I mean is like to the baseline position is that creative is targeting.

And since creative is targeting, >> you are you are probably targeting the right people just by having creative that works. Okay. So So now uh let's look at another ad here. >> Yeah, you can do that one. [music] That's me. Yeah. >> [music] >> Did you make this ad, Sarah? >> Yeah, >> it's great. All right. Um, I got the idea of that out as well. This is interesting. Okay, let's look at one more here. Is this the same person? >> Yeah.

Are you looking in >> I'm looking older cuz Well, I can, but I want to understand what ads have spent historically. >> All right, just do this one. This one's okay. This is, I think, a helpful one to see because it's about her teaching in a in a quilt in shop. Yeah. >> Okay. I'll be honest, I am not a quilter. So, when our Pallet Scout color deck started to really gain traction with quilters and quilt shops, I decided I needed to challenge myself to teach a class at my local quilt store.

After the class was listed, it filled up very fast. And in just [music] a few short weeks, I found myself teaching 11 complete strangers about how to make palettes and translate those palettes into prints and patterns that pair together into beautiful quilts. Some people were there for a love of color. Some were nervous [music] about color. And some were just getting back into quilting and looking for a place to get started. >> I know that this is why quilters are so excited about [music] Pallet Scout.

It checks all of those boxes. >> All right. Um, that one is much more quilting. Here's what I'll say about these first three ads you've shown me. the the as top spenders. The first one says it is a quilt focused ad, but I didn't see almost anything about the ad that actually made me think very much about quilting. Now, maybe if I was a quilter, I would notice the context of it more, but for me, it was so so much less about that.

In fact, I couldn't even really see very well the product. Like, I couldn't see what Pallet Scout was doing in the ad. Um, the color the second one you showed me which had the which was like the text on screen animation is very clever, but again I had a hard time understanding like what it was that was sort of it was really getting at. I like the idea a lot of almost like a pop quiz kind of ad for this which is like why do these colors go together and are you able to replicate this in your as a maker?

I think it's a really good way to sort of help you put people's finger into the into the idea that they need help with this. Um, >> yeah, >> like the idea of like almost it's like yeah, giving them a problem to solve, you know, in fact, it makes me even think about if there's a quiz funnel to be had here, which is like how many of these color things can you get right, so to speak. Like uh I don't know. Like people can have fun with that and you can say like you know you got three out of six right but guess what you can get all of them right and it will help you be a maker and here's how you do it as pallet scout and it's like and then it walks them through kind of what it is because this is sort of a classic product where an explainer ad to me is like the the ideal ad for this just to show makers and I would say in a really really direct way like what they are doing so like let me actually step one step back what I'll say is I almost certain that the core issue that you are facing right now in this ad account is just selling the like it's just selling the product.

Like you just have like the most basic meta ads problem. I look at your ad account setup and I think it's all good. There's no you're not being held back by meta in any way. Your account setup is solid. Um I would like to see you have some bidcaps spending that is you're probably missing some audience there. I think that's probably the biggest thing in the ad account level that is like a challenge here. It looks like we're not getting any bidcap ads out.

Um, and I bet you could do that a little bit more. So, I would probably duplicate these this whole campaign. This is probably the biggest structural change I would make. Duplicate your TROS campaign exactly as it is. Run it with a manual bid. And I would put your I just make sure you be careful about what that bid is. Um, what what is your rorowass target right now in your mind? >> One uh 1.8 is where it's set. >> Okay.

So, um so if you want a 1.8 8 and you're getting like a let's call it a $75 AO ob. Let's just say 75 divided by 1.8. $42. You'll probably get a little bit of Yeah, I'd set a bid cap at like $45 here and see where it comes in at and see if you need to adjust up or down a little bit. It's a little tricky in Meta's new attribution because you might get some click and gauge through things and then there's delayed attribution.

People click today and buy in three weeks and like there's all of these little like confusing things like that. But I would set a bid cap at something like $45. I don't see that anywhere um more >> recently. not running big cats right now. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. And if the key to that idea is that, and I've made this point before, right, with my beautiful modern fuel pan here, if uh if you think about every customer in the world as being on on two sides of a spectrum, this customer over here is the customer that's least likely to um to spend a lot of money with you.

This customer uh spends spends a lot of money. And a lot of money, I mean AOV, right? So like lower AOV, higher AOV. Okay. um your target rowass ads are highest value optimization. So they're going to target people on the high AOV side, but that means there's all these people over here as well on the low AOV side. Now, it actually may end up being a similar AOV across these ads. Like, who knows? Because you have a simple enough product mix where you might not, but I find that these two are really actually distinct groups of people.

There's overlap in the middle somewhere in here. You're going to hit both people and that's okay. Meta, you can have some overlap between the two. But in general, when you run value ads and volume ads, highest volume ads with a manual bid would be a bid cap or a cost cap. Highest value ads would be a target row ad with a manual bid. Okay? That that actually they do reach different people, which the brass tax on that is that one way for you to increase your spend is just by making sure you've got both going all the time.

Because if you have both going all the time, you are maximizing Meta's ability to reach the most people on this. And what should happen as you add those volume ads is that you should end up getting a lower CPM and a wider reach uh by by doing that. And so that's the the thing that I would do right away here is just go literally just straight up duplicate this target ROS campaign. You might have to do a couple things to get all of it right.

Like take all the stuff here that's spending in the last 30 days at all. Duplicate all of these into a bid cap campaign. >> Set your attribution at 7-day click one day engaged view. That will give you sort of the maximum ratio. And like I said, set that target somewhere around 45 bucks to start. See where you start if you get any spend. If you're getting no spend here, what I would if when you do that, I would take the bid cap up to $55 and keep your budget down at like 300 or something like that.

Like 200, something low, something you're pretty comfortable where like if you have a couple bad days, it's not going to kill your business or anything. >> Um, and then and then even those out over time. It's it's really tricky to set bids right now because again that the the definition of a click attributed purchase changed. So now factoring in how those engage throughs work into work into your target is tricky because the default in meta is going to include those engage views if you set the attribution setting I just said.

Um and so just kind of understand that is is tricky but uh but but basically something like that number and see kind of where your actual CAC comes in at. Set that somewhere where you trust it and I bet you you will get more reach on those ads. You may even get a lot more reach on those ads. Um does that make sense to you? >> Yeah. So, would I duplicate the campaign or the adset? >> Uh, well, I was going to say duplicate the adsets because it will be easier because you've got a lot of adsets in here >> and you don't care about all these old ones that are not on anymore. >> So, the simple thing to do is just take all of these >> um like this.

Duplicate it. And when you duplicate, put it into a new campaign. And it should take all those adsets and put them in new. You may have to like >> like it'll just be annoying like you may have to do like four of them at once like this and then you know what I mean? Like little by little. But uh but get all of those into a new campaign that's at a big cap level. But but does that but does the total approach make sense? >> Yeah, I think the reason I was hesitant to do that was I thought that the same people would be getting the same ads but like different like copies of ads that sounds like you don't think really as matter. >> Some people will like I said if you come back to this analogy there there's some overlap here in the middle but but but they actually do target it's different optimizations like right.

So, so the telltale sign that it's working correctly is that you'll end up with those with those two having um the the bidcap campaign will because it's again it's volume optimized. It's getting it's going for the lowest cost uh conversion. It should have a lower CPM, probably a lower conversion rate, though that's a little bit more secondary and and a lower AOV. Like my guess is that more of those people will not take your upsell, you know, that kind of thing.

Um, and uh, and maybe that's only like a 10% difference in AOVs, but sometimes I'll see that with like a 30 or 40% difference in in uh, CPM. So, you'll reach a wider range of people that you were just otherwise not reaching. And it should extend your reach to some to some degree. >> Okay. But you would send it to the same landing pages. I'm remembering now that that's >> I would I would literally change nothing other than >> Great.

That sounds easy. >> Y, it is. Yeah, it is easy. That's one of the things I love about this strategy actually is that's incredibly fast and easy. >> Yeah. Okay. Um, I will try that. And I'm curious. So, if you are saying that you think a lot of this is creative, if you have more suggestions on our creative or our landing page or things related to that, >> let's do it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, that's the thing I was going to say was >> structurally I think everything else is good to go.

I don't think you have any other issues. What I say is it doesn't seem like you're having a hard time getting new ads to spend there. It's just like it seems like new ads are spending. It's just that not that the total package is not spending as much as you want them to. >> Exactly. >> Okay. Um, okay. One other thing that I'm seeing right now is that you do have a mix in here of click and click plus view. And that's another thing I would factor in is that these ones all you're basically including for all these because of the new um the new way that Meta uh measures this sort of thing.

These are all these all basically get more purchases uh assigned to them than these ones. And so set at the same row row target. I mean these ones are a little more conservative. I see you're at a 1.8 eight, you're at a 1.8 target here versus like a 1.9 to2 here. Um, so that's that's maybe part of why, but what I would do is, in fact, yeah, I don't know if I would totally overhaul everything if it's spending, but my ideal setup would actually just to be have all of these have the same attribution setting.

And I some people will will think this is crazy, but I actually wouldn't have any problem like literally relaunching everything here and I bet you'll still get the best ad spending to just see 7-day click, one day engaged view. >> So, and you would lose all the comments and all the history and you just wouldn't worry about that. >> I don't think you necessarily would lose all the comments and all the history uh because you should be able to carry them over.

There used to be a thing that you selected, but the truth is I wouldn't actually care about that. This is another This is like one of my more contrarian opinions >> is that I don't think it'll be a problem. There's actually a simple way to test this though. Don't do the whole thing at once. >> Um take like maybe your number three spending adset here. So not literally not your top spending one. Duplicate that one with 70 click one day engage view and see if it still spends >> proportionally like it was before.

Does that make sense? >> Yeah. Yeah. No, it makes sense. I mean and I I did move the April ones over but I could move the November. So basically you're just duplicating and then turning off the old one. Is that right? >> But yeah, but get rid of the view. You don't want view through. You want only sevenday click and one day engagement >> because viewth through is still going to be messy for you. That's still going to include a bunch of like kind of garbage purchases. >> Um you're you're getting some view conversions.

It's not too crazy in here, but um but yeah, like this is why I have that distinction between click and and uh >> I see >> uh and not. So let's see. I'm just put these ones in here. So you would >> it's pretty small for you but um but yeah I would get rid of the view conversions okay >> on on these ones and add engage view and then I would duplicate the whole thing to the bidcap that way it's all the exact same attribution. >> If nothing else you're comparing apples to apples that way.

Okay. So yeah. >> Okay. >> That's what I would do. Like I said you could do a couple of them at a time and just make sure that like nothing goes crazy. But >> Mhm. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Uh worst case scenario flip on your old ones. Uh yeah, >> if you are building an e-commerce business and you are trying to be profitminded, you care a lot about how much each click on your website drives value in your business, you should be using Intelligjs.

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Go to intelligj.io. Use that code ferris 20 to go do it today. Okay. If you have made it this far in this episode, I just need a super shout out. Mike, leave us in here. Editor Mike has done an incredible job because we have had more tech problems on this episode than I've had in a very long time on this show. Sarah has been so gracious, patient with me. Uh, but leave a comment on this episode and say, "Thank you, Mike, because Mike has worked hard for your viewing enjoyment on this episode." All right.

Um, assuming those are the only structural issues, and I think the bidcap one could be a bigger one. I don't remember if I already said that or not because of all the tech issues, but uh, but that one could be a bigger thing. having volume optimization alongside your value optimization could really open up more spend. That said, um uh that said, and and I think you should align your your attribution settings. Um I yeah, there's I don't know.

Is there a reason why this is separated out too, Sarah? This >> it's just old and legacy. And so when I heard about, you know, new better ways to optimize, I started moving forward, but didn't change anything moving backward. Do you >> Yeah, I dump them into the new one into the CBO. It's not going to hurt anything. it'll just be easier. Again, probably with manual bids, probably not a huge deal, but just something I would do. >> Okay. >> Um, okay.

So, I think the big issue here though is creative. And there is this question about sort of what is going to work. And so, I would look at your creative for this in a few different ways. The and and and we will get to Landers in a little bit by the way. Um, the first thing I would look at here is like what can you do at the general level to explain this product to people in a way that's clear because I think this has sort of mass market appeal. um in general and Sarah you might have done this already.

I'm not looking through all of your creative here, but do you feel like you've made just like very straightforward here is what it is and why it's good ads? >> Well, so it's interesting because I think of that uh the color harmony explainer one which you already looked at as our explainer video. >> So the fact that you still couldn't tell what the product does, I think it's telling >> um that should be updated more. And um we also have a founder video that I think explains it well and I'm curious what you think of that. >> Um I lost you for a second.

Say say that last part again. >> Sorry. You said that you you said that you were you found it um this is your explainer ad. >> Uh the coloring explainer. Yeah. >> Yeah. So, I found it interesting like if if that still wasn't really clear to you what the product does and I've also explained the product to you, then I think um we could definitely be clearer. And there's also a founder explainer ad which gets a lot of spend maybe not as much the past month. >> Um >> does it call is it this one? >> No.

If you look like are you in both are you looking at both campaigns right now? >> No. Look at both of them. And there founder. >> Oh yeah. Oh yes. Okay. Here we go. This is actually a top spinning ad. There we go. >> Okay. This is great. Here's why I created a Yes. Wait. Actually, I'm going to open it. And Instagram in a separate window. >> Here's why I created our bestselling color tool, Pallet Scout. I own a yarn company, and color is at the heart of so much of our work.

One day, while squinting and spinning a color wheel, I had my light bulb moment. a deck of cards, each with a full flood of color and a fun and intuitive way to mix and match into pleasing harmonies. Two years and four prototypes later, we launched Pallet Scout to an audience of mostly weavers and were blown away by the response. We sold out of our first batch right away and almost [music] immediately started hearing from many other speakers. >> I think this is a great ad.

I'm not surprised at all that it's a top spending ad. Um, and I sort of missed that because of the campaign structure a second ago, but this is definitely your top spender. Um, I think this ad is is really good. I would do a couple things here. The first is I would um I would actually go even more direct. And what I mean by that is you've got kind of a hookie intro on that ad. I'd make another ad. We call this the we we literally call this the super direct explainer at AJF Growth.

And I'm actually in the process now of making like this structure of this ad into something that we do for every new account we get right when they first start working with us. Um, it's like basically like in our sort of intro package of ads without our strategist even thinking about it. it just becomes SOP for us because it works so well so often. And the ad goes like this. This is the product from brand and here's why it's good.

Um, okay. So, it's that it's literally that script. Okay. And I mean, I have seen these ads spend hundreds of thousands of dollars and it's it's actually annoying. It's like it's like, man, I want to be a creative person and do cool work, but it's just really hard. Like, >> this is um this is one of those things where it just works really, really well. This is pallet scout for from Zali and it's the perfect way to help you uh make it so that the colors on your on the things you make again you're going to frame this you're going to get the language right right the colors on the things that you on on on the cra the crafts you're making on the projects you're making look like they're made by a professional or whatever okay something like that um and you say here's why it works so well it's a deck of cards it has a series of colors show the card like show the card really clearly and see the reason I think the one that you the founder video works better than the the color harmony video than the animation is because I think it's way clearer. >> Um it's it's and I I just don't think I think almost everybody underestimates clarity in the creative process. >> So what I would do is I would make that and then I would challenge yourself to make five to 10 more versions of that ad.

I would have you be the one to do it and you reference yourself as the founder >> and I would do five to 10 versions of that ad for different people. Um, and so what I mean is like uh this is this is uh hold up a quilt and the and the color palette or the the card the the um yeah the pallet scout card and it would be uh this is pallet scout from uh ZI and it's the best way to make your quilts look whatever you know how whatever they care about. uh interior design.

If you're designing a room, this is the best way to do it, right? Then you branch out from there to where you start with start with that formula. This is the product from brand. You do five to seven of those or whatever. Um those kinds of things. And then and you try to target those different audiences. One of them is really broad, just about exactly what the product is. The other ones sort of have that sort of specific angle to the specific audience you're trying to reach.

And then I would go out from there and my next my next round of ads out would be sort of that direct style, but it would be uh it would actually start with the start with the person that you're talking to. So it would be something like um uh the biggest problem with uh design, redesigning, renovating your room with or your living room in your house is making it so that the colors look right or show a good version of it and a bad version of it.

Be like, can you tell the difference between these two? One of these has colors that m work together well. one of them that doesn't. And if you would like to have this kind of level of professionalism in your house, you actually don't need to be an interior designer. You we've made this really easy for you to tell how colors work together. Uh and you could say something like about your credentials here, like uh did you go to art school? >> I did not.

I studied forestry, but I have worked in a creative field with a yarn company for 10 years. >> Yeah, sure. Right. I I started a yarn company. I understand color theory deeply. It's confusing to a lot of people. So, I made it easy for you like this, but or you could even say something like uh the reason why some colors work well together and others don't is because of color theory. Color theory is a lot to get your head around.

I made it really easy for you like this. Here's how it works. So, for example, you know, and just show people because I think what people need to do is they need to see here's the problem that I'm having. I can now locate that problem in my mind, in my heart, my experience, my emotions. And then into the next stage, it's like uh uh here's how this solves it. show. They need to see the cards. They need to see what they actually need to look at the cards in it and um and you lay them out like this and here's exactly how it works.

How's here's how's they work together. Here's how easy it is for you to use it. Anybody can use it even if they think it colors, you know, and then you and whatever and and you say, "And we've now sold this to thousands of people." So that that thing you've said there, like we're in these big art supply stores, we've sold this many of them. That's all the validation and stuff and here's the guarantee and and all that stuff, right?

So, um, I would do that with these different personas in mind where the bigger audiences are and try to start reaching those people. Out from there, there's all kinds of other stuff you can do and ads you can make. But actually, I'll tell you, when I saw the top spending ad you had in January of this year, that was the woman showing people in a quilting class, but like I said, you couldn't even really see what the cards are that she's looking at.

I'm like, "Oh, we can beat that ad." Like, you should feel good because I know you can beat that ad, Sarah. Like, I know you can't because it's it's actually not very clear what it is. I don't think u as somebody who's a little has a little more distance from the cars and stuff and so you can definitely make that next step there. So I think that's like that's like the kind of stuff I would be doing as much as I possibly could.

Um I actually would make some static ads here where it's literally just the card because I think the card is sort of self-explanatory. Uh you sent me a deck a while ago, right? They're cool. Like they they um you know the card shows you here's how these colors go together and like just have it there. Like u use this to to pair colors, you know, whatever. in in your house. Like it's just simple stuff like that. But people just need to see it and feel it.

Um and I would be doing as much of that as possible. Now the other thing I would do in your space at the creative level is as much as possible also I would be trying to get creators involved with this and connecting this Pallet Scout to their project in a way that shows people how Pallet Scout fits into their end goal of making cool projects. Um and so it like you are in a creative field with a bunch of creative people and I bet some of them would be really happy to support you in this sort of thing.

They probably love it and and all that. And I would just say like, "Hey, we want to see your projects and what we really want to know is how Pallet Scout helped you make it and get people to sort of unwind that for people." Um, you know, I couldn't decide how the this part of the hat was going to go with this part of the shirt. I don't know, you know, whatever. Like, uh, and and and help people make the connection between Pallet Scout and the actual project they're working on.

And I would be thinking about those target personas in those specific ways. The the magic of meta ads in so many ways is that it's this incredible creative matching machine, right? It's like for the quilter, they're going to get a bunch of quilting comment content. And people have watched the show recently or listened to my podcast recently, they've heard me use this example a bunch of times, but um but but it it well it just it can get so specific and so you're able to speak to people in really really specific ways and I would encourage you to keep making creative that does a whole bunch of stuff like that.

Okay, let me pause there and see what your feedback is on that thought. >> Yeah, no, this is all super helpful. I put myself on mute so I could write lots of comments down. Um, I think this makes a lot of sense. I'm looking through my notes here. Um, in your uh I don't remember how you put it, the super basic ad, are you also sharing like that it's sold out and where it's stocked or is it just like this is what the product does? >> Hey, if you like this episode, you should subscribe right now wherever you're watching or listening to it because uh if you like this, it's the kind of stuff I'm talking about all the time. how to grow your e-commerce business with profit driven meta ads using things like manual bids, creative, all that kind of stuff.

Also, leave a comment while you're here. I'd love to hear your thoughts on Sarah's ad account. What is she doing that she should not be doing? What should she not be doing that she is doing? Uh, and all the rest. I read and respond to every one of those comments. Leave a comment, subscribe. Thanks. >> Are you also sharing like your own credibility and where you stopped and selling out? It's it's all of that. It's just being even more direct without a hook essentially. >> Yep.

It's the way I think about it is hook, body, validation and guarantee, offer. So, I'd put that all in there. Hook, body, body is the education component of it. Validation, guarantee, >> offer. Uh, validation, guarantee is really just validation. I mean, it's all one thing, but the guarantee is part of validation a lot of times. And then offer. So, hook, body, validation, offer. Um, the hook in this case, it just people don't think of this as a hook, but it is, right?

It's that that line. This is the product and brand. This is why it's good. Uh, the validation could be all that stuff. Yeah. I've yarn company for 10 years. Uh you know all the all the things that you said in there. How many you've sold all that stuff and on top of that if you have any kind of guarantee do that and then say we'll also give you a second to complete the set. We'll give you this also for this much money.

You know what I mean? All those things. >> So put that in the offer. >> Um yeah that that simple. Um so let me actually take this another step out though. What is your current ability to generate uh creative? Like are you able to do this? Do you have a do you have when I tell you go make more ads, are you like, uh, I'm gonna die if I have to make more ads. I have too much to do already in this business. >> No. Okay. >> Uh, because I have great people that work with me and that are working really hard on making new creative and so I think some more direction and ideas to try is is great. >> Yeah. >> How much creative are you outputting right now? >> Uh, we're trying to do 30 a month. >> Okay, great.

I think the fastest pathway to you uh generating much more sales is to start with the message of your ad. So, when you're forming creative, start with who am I talking to and what am I trying to say to them. Get as specific as you possibly can with those messages. Uh do not be afraid to make your ads long. Okay, that's another thing. Um if there's stuff to explain, if it takes a while to explain it, explain it. Give give people all the information they need to confidently purchase Pallet Scout in this.

And then uh and then yeah and then think about what creative ideas you can make and then uh uh and then try to get that number from 30 to 100. >> Uh yes or whatever. I just pulled a hundred out of a hat. But do you see what I'm saying? Try to see what happens if you can make it a lot bigger. >> Um seed to more people, get creators going, those kinds of things. >> I think you do have a product that can reach a lot wider of an audience than you're reaching right now. you just have to speak to those people really specifically and people talk so much about like creative in the age of Andromeda and like oh how did Andromeda change things and all this >> and the answer to that question is like it just made it possible to talk to people more specifically.

Um and so find as many people as you can think of who have a reasonable case for using pallet scout to match colors in their life better and or you know I'm saying match but you know what I mean to to be better with color in their life. think about what they are making and then uh and then figure out ways to tell them that that that the pain they're feeling in their making process is something that you can solve. Um I'm I'm framing that in very problem solution ways.

It might not actually be pain. It might be like you might not be solving a problem so much as providing inspiration. I think that's another thing. Making people just feel a little more confident. Um I think it's another thing sometimes people want to be doing stuff like this but they they don't feel like they can do it. So maybe sort of encouraging people almost could be some of the tone of your ads. you can do it. That kind of thing.

Um, yeah. I was I was I was I was watching I was watching that video of those women doing quilting and I was thinking like what are they thinking about their quilting experience while they're while they're in that store talking with a member of your team about Pallet Scout? What is their what do they want to have happen when they make a quilt? You know, they're trying to they're trying to create beauty in the world in some way. you know, they're doing something that matters and uh and so how can you help them along the way of doing that?

I I don't need to tell you those people, but there's something great about that and for you to kind of find a way to come alongside them and say and say like we can help you. I can help you do that and then find where are those little places where they're getting messed up, you know, like I think is is really important. Um so, and you can speak to those extremely specific little places. That's that's the that's the beauty of sort of Andromeda advertising is like exa exactly where the problem is for the quilter.

You can speak to it exactly where the problem is for the weaver. You can speak to it. I don't I don't know in the process where that is but you probably do. >> So so speak to those things. >> Yeah. So another question for you and maybe this is where we get into landing page looking at landing pages and bundles but we do a lot of talking in our ads about pilot scout and most of our ads don't necessarily talk about the whole bundle the different sort of products that go along with it and they are explained that on the landing page >> and I am just curious if you think we should do like explainer ads about our bundles or just in general to get your feedback on how we're merchandising bundles here.

And there's this is a I'll I'll just tell you this is like a the our >> our landing page for general art and design folks and we also have another landing page that's for quilters so you could take a look. >> Okay, I'll find that one too. >> Um so yes, I think you should make a super direct explainer for the whole bundle. the whole >> So, the same thing that I just said before, but for the whole bundle. Just just do the take the exact same thing where you say like, okay, this is the Pallet Scout bundle from Zulli or whatever it's called, right?

And say like it has these two things and here's why it's good, you know? Um, it's not just the cards, it's also this. I mean, just walk through the whole thing. The way I sort of frame this for people sometimes, and I don't know if that'll work, right? Like Palace got scout alone might be good. You might have to tack this on to the pallet scout ad on top, you know, in the offer section. We're also going to include this and this and here's here's why that's also good, you know.

Um, think of almost like a if you think about that, it's like a uh infomercial style almost, right? Like those that's the kind of thing I've been thinking like. Um, but wait, there's more that kind of idea. Um, but I uh I do think you could try it with the whole bundle and that you you should try it with the whole bundle and see show people all the value they're providing uh that you're providing along the way. So, um, yeah.

Uh, I don't know if that'll work, but, uh, but it I could see it. Um, all right. So, we're going to look at a landing page here. Uh, and like like anytime we're looking at a landing page, if you're looking at on desktop, shame on you. [laughter] So, I switched us down to to uh to this. Um, let's see. like I'd try and make this pop out. I'd probably use my pallet scout to find a uh contrasting color uh to uh to this. >> Um and and like I missed this at first. >> Um >> I'd probably actually put it up here too, >> like uh something like that. >> Um >> offers offer pages like this.

It's often the case that like the bun the offer is the main thing they're good at actually. Um yeah. Um so uh so yeah. So like making that clear uh meet your new secret weapon is um is interesting. Do you think quilters know what problem they have? >> Um I think quilters who decide they want to use Pallet Scout already feel that they don't feel confident using color. most of them that people >> tell me where that shows up in the quilting process.

At what point of making their quilt do they feel their lack of confidence in color? >> So many quilters have tons of fabric in their stash and they'll set out to make a new quilt and they'll look around their stash and try to figure out what to pull and there's um you know a moment where you're pulling lots of different fabrics and putting them together and trying to figure out what's going to look good together. And when you quilt you cut.

So once you cut your fabric like there's no going back. Um, so people like in that moment as they're planning out their quilt before they start coming, they're really wanting to choose colors that they're gonna know are going to pop and look great together. >> So speaking really, really specifically to really different people uh specifically with quilters. So, have you made ads that have spoken to the specific problems of, like I said, somebody literally in the moment of tr of standing in front of a whole bunch of of uh fabric and deciding which ones to use or somebody cutting fabric and realizing they made the wrong decision?

Have you sp made ads that speak to those? >> Yeah, actually, one of the ads that just started picking up recently was an ad that Anna on on our team put together. Um, I think it's called Stash Avoider. I'm curious if you want to look at it and you think that speaks to it well. >> Oh, I did see I did see that there was a newer ad that was spending call spash and it's smashing. Look at this. >> Yes. >> Yes. That's great.

It is by It's like It's really doing great. That's interesting. I want >> So, this is her walking through a product. >> Look at that. It's a top spending ad. It's by far your top spending ad right now in the last couple days. >> It's actually This is great. It's like taking over your account and it's crushing. Okay, this is awesome. Let's see. Let's see what we can make with this fabric I've been avoiding. >> This floral has been sitting in my stash. >> A fabric I've been avoiding.

That is so good. I love it, but I could never figure out what to pair it with. Today, I'm using this red as my anchor color, and I'm determined to commit to a palette that works with it. I found the closest match in my pallet scout deck, Garnet 2. >> Okay, who made this ad? >> Anna on our team. Yeah, >> she did great. This is so good. >> Wonderful. >> So, this is exactly this is exactly what I Like think about that hook to so that super direct explainer ad is one approach to this.

It speaks to a broad range of people within a certain category. This though is like talks to the particular moment and that is such a specific problem that a quilter has and like the whole magic of meta ads is the ability to that without doing any targeting meta finds people who respond to that hook, right? They're responding to the content. It's like a Tik Tok uh piece of content in this respect where it's just organic content basically that sort of works in this.

Do you know what I mean? Like and and you just get more like content like that all the time. I So I would go find that angle if you know what I mean for as many of your personas as you possibly can. Where is the place that people are getting stuck on something and how and and this is I can already see the just with the shot that I paused on can already see that you're going to solve that problem by look. Okay, here it is.

I've got my anchor color. match it to to the color right here in Pallet Scout. I might even try to make sure it's clear that it's easy to match the color, you know, like, you know, like find it. Look, we well, it's really easy to find which card is. And then, okay, hold on. I'm going to press play again >> and pulled the palette ideas card for it. Monochrome is my safe zone, but I don't have a lot of red in my stash.

So, today I'm going >> Oh, this is so good. >> After playing with my dad, >> you need to make a hundred of this ad. You need to make as many of them as you can. This This is This speaks so specifically. I love this. This speaks so specifically to what your customer is dealing with and struggling with. And it's not surprising to me when you said we spent $1,000 yesterday uh for for Mother's Day. It is not because of Mother's Day. >> Yeah. >> It's bec because that ad is ripping.

Uh yeah, it's it's really really really good. I love this. Um okay, that's that's your next task is to go make as many of those as possible and keep finding what is the problem somebody's experiencing. How does pallet scout it step into that highly specific point? Um, I love this. Uh, and then for your lander, which you were bringing up earlier. Let me see. Uh, I would almost say this like I would connect this almost more.

In fact, I would I would even make a version of this that's specifically tied to that one ad. You know, something to the effect of like uh never or like uh uh what would the headline be? Like uh never wonder which fabrics to pair again. That sucks. Uh I I you know what I'm saying? like try to try to speak more specifically to that particular experience um in your in your cuz like this is still kind of vague to me. Meet your new secret weapon. >> I think you're saying speak to the pain in the headline.

Is that right? Yes. The >> pain point. Yeah. Yeah. And and how this solves it, right? Is as a big part of it. So yeah. >> Um yeah, I think this could be a lot clearer. Um, I might have like multiple buttons that are like like three levels like it's just like pallet scout only, scout plus whatever this one comes with. Uh, sticker pack, you know what I mean? >> Instead of a drop down, is that what you mean? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Like pills or I just want to make sure I understand what you're supposed to. >> Uh, it'd be like uh like think about like a soft like uh Well, probably what it would be is like three boxes on top of each other with like a good, better, best. >> Yeah. >> Kind of thing.

Do you see what I'm saying? just like >> yes. >> Yeah. >> Um something like that and it and each escalating discount on them, you know, try to think about what that offer could be full price if you only buy Pallet Scout. >> And this is another thing where like do one version of it that's like that and another version of it that doesn't even have the bottom tier option >> and just see if one of them converts better than the other. >> Um this is also where value bidding and volume bidding can actually really matter.

It might be that on the volume campaign, more people take the bottom option. On the value campaign, more people take the top option. So having both can really matter. You know, those are the kind of things that I might think about here is is some of that. Um, at some point I'm going to do a landing page episode because we're building a landing page builder that's sort of in beta right now with our clients. Uh, but uh, yeah.

Uh, but anyway, that's something I would do. I think your problem is solved, Sarah. Um, I think you you need to spend as much organizational energy as possible on this next. That's what you need to do on finding these kinds of creative angles and on finding uh, this kind of creative for at like double, triple, quadruple the volume you're doing it at right now. um for all of these specific subgroups of makers and then you need to speak to you need to find exactly that angle you just did make the super direct explainer and then find the exact angle that you just did and uh and find that same pain point for each of these different kind of subgroups of your customers and I think I think that's the way forward from here more than your lander more than anything else and there's offer testing you can do for sure but I think I think that the the performance that we're seeing over the last couple days it's great timing that we're doing this podcast when we're doing it because it's such a validation of of how much like creative is just the issue.

There's no ghost in the machine. There's no big meta problem. Like like I said, do that. Add the volume bidding. I think you're going to be in good shape. >> So would you also work on like more versions of that for the same niche or you would just like and also would you make statics like that or is that more of a video? >> Sure. Yeah. I think we we tend to think about creative as like explore and expand. >> Like one of the things I don't want you to miss here is that the the thing that's moving the needle in this ad is first and foremost the message.

I do think it's a good first shot in that like that piece of fabric is sort of eye-catching, you know, uh in that in that video. Uh I just think also I just think also that like the main thing though that's working is like this idea of I've been trying to find some I've had this piece of fabric for eight years. I haven't found anything. I I want to use it and I haven't been able to. Like this is what everybody underrates about creative is that it's so much about saying something compelling to people.

It's about ideas and ideas that hit people emotionally because this is an emotional problem in the sense of like it's frustrating to sit on fabric that you feel like is just wasting away you know um you feel wasteful and all those things but totally but the message is first and foremost and that's that's the thing that I would take away from that and so yes I would I would expand on that message I would >> I mean fabric is so visual that like yeah absolutely go make the same ad but with five other pieces of fabric you know like change it up a little you know but um but like roughly that same idea and see if it helps It might be that the crazier the fabric the better.

Like what happens if you use >> I don't know do quilters buy like weird fabric. >> Oh yeah. >> Okay. >> Like I mean you know some people and and you know it's fun to work with unusual things. So we're bringing beauty into the world. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. So find so find weird fabric something that's like >> and start there. This is the craziest fabric I bought in a long time. It's got these patterns on it. I I loved it.

I just didn't know what to do with it. And so here's how I solved that, you know. But yes, definitely go do a bunch of that. And like I said, go find that same angle for five other personas, if you know what I mean. >> Um, well, thank you for sticking with the tech issues and giving me feedback. Is there anything else you want to share or? >> Uh, well, I was going to say explore and expand. We break these things up in explore and expand.

So we say explore is finding new angles. Expand is find is repeating angles that work. >> Um, so explore would be this in this case would be the same angle for different personas. That would probably call that explore. uh tech technically not the same angle but the same the same idea right find the pain point in in the process speak to that uh expand would be uh would be yeah take the same painpoint for quilters and then find new ways to say it that are creative in terms of ad formats right find statics that say it um find find different videos that say it find creators that can do it whatever you know so yeah yeah and then uh listen if it works you got to come back on and uh and uh and tell people you don't have to show the gobs of money that you're swimming in when you've implemented these things.

You know, it's okay. But, uh, but we can speaking it somewhat vaguely, but I would love I would love to have an update as you get more of this going. >> Yeah, I really appreciate your help, Andrew. Um, I love listening to your podcasts and I learn a lot. Um, and it's fun to get to put it in place in our business. >> Yes. Awesome. Okay. I'm excited to see how this goes. Thanks, Sarah. >> Thank you. >> Bye. All right. Kind of a monster episode.

Hope you followed all that. Please do subscribe wherever you're watching or listening to that. I think you will like my other content if you like that. Big shout out to my sponsors in this episode, Intel Gems Behind the Scenes Studio. The links for both of those are in the show notes. Go follow up with both of them. And of course, if you're interested in uh having me work with your brand [music] or um or do anything like that or even do this kind of episode with you and you're willing to share like Sarah did, podcast at afgrowth.com is the place to email me and tell me about what you're thinking.

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