The Right Way To Test Landing Pages On Meta Ads In 2026 (With Brad From Scalability School) transcript

I don't know anything about how to test landing pages. That's not exactly true, but I have been confused for a long time about how best mechanically at the media buying level to test landing pages in Meta. And I'm going to talk today to somebody who does know something about this and has a strong opinion about what to do, how to test landing pages in a way that makes sense, the way that gets you the information you need because there is real value in building and testing landing pages for your approach to your Meta ads account and probably really to all of your media spend.

And so, we're just going to siphon all the knowledge today from the brain of Brad Plock, long-time agency leader who's been working on all kinds of stuff in the agency space and in media buying and in Meta ads and e-commerce for a long time. Uh but and but you may know him right now most as as one of the hosts of Scalability School, excellent, very tactical media buying podcast and excuse me, D2C growth podcast, not just media buying.

Um Brad is here live and on tape from Wisconsin. Let's get into it and talk about what is the actual best way to test landing pages on your ad spend. >> [music] >> Hi, Brad. How are you? >> I'm fantastic. You know, I've watched enough of your episodes to know that like I shouldn't be surprised at how good that intro was going to be, but like >> [laughter] >> that that was impressive. I don't think I could I don't think I could do that.

So, we um that's why that's why Andrew on our side also does the intros cuz um we haven't released an episode, but like we we just did one with Zach and I only and the intro was probably the worst thing of all time. So, um no, that was that was fantastic. I appreciate the uh the warm [laughter] welcome. I'm excited to jam on landers. >> Normally, I try to like uh actually butter you up more, but so let's do that now instead.

Uh you you've been in the agency and media buying game for a long time. Give people your quick credentials, however you want to say it, so the people know why I called why I like raised the bat the the landing page bat signal to get you here. >> Yeah, so long story short, uh I was in college and I learned Facebook ads because I wanted to sell t-shirts to our local pub crawl. So, we made some drop ship design t-shirts, taught myself Facebook ads, and we sold a couple hundred dollars' worth, and I thought thought I was rich.

No idea if we actually made any money [laughter] and the shirts definitely got delivered the morning of. So we almost almost got screwed there, but that's how I learned Facebook ads. Over the course of the next like 10 years I did some freelancing which catapulted into starting an agency with my roommates from college. We've we've been doing that for a long time and recently and more excitingly we've been really thinking about this landing page service offering cuz it seems like people are kind of dropping the ball and they're not thinking about it.

And so we're just spending more time thinking about that. We kind of exclusively work with with e-commerce brands, but we've got a little bit of lead gen background as well. But yeah, just spending a lot of other people's money trying to figure out what works to sell people stuff on the internet. >> Okay, so that's awesome. I didn't know that that part of the origin story. I've just found you to be a extremely helpful trustworthy voice on a lot of this stuff.

I think you you think really clearly about a lot of things. I've I've been really helped by a lot of your content. So first I appreciate it. Um but secondly, you know, I I tweeted something the other day about what's the right way to test landing pages. And let me let me frame up why I think this is a hard problem. Okay, because it seems easy in one respect to say like what do you mean? You just drive the traffic to the landing page, you split it in IntelliGyms, whatever you're going to do.

And and I love IntelliGyms. They've been a sponsor of the show for a long time. Most of my clients use IntelliGyms in some way. So so it's not to take anything away from from what the usefulness of that tool is. Uh which I think is very useful for a lot of other things. But there's there's this challenge that I feel which is that on the one hand almost any um sort of split test you run off of paid traffic has a couple of problems.

One of them is that if you if you run the split test it's uh it's really it's really noisy data a lot of times. It's actually very hard to get statistical significance. It's just hard to do a good job of sort of controlling the spend in a way that the actual test setup has any rigor in a way that delivers any results that matter. So, it it like in the the way you know this is that everybody who has ever run a post-click split test of any kind based off of meta traffic knows that they will run that test, get what seems to be a clear result, implement the new result, and it does not hold at all.

Um and I think there's a lot of reasons that happens, but it's it's a very noisy and difficult thing. And just the reality is most of us are just not good enough data thinkers um to really control the variables and uh confounders basically in a way that that makes sense. My myself included, I sort of know enough about data and statistics to know what I don't know and to know that I'm pretty bad at that. So, there's a problem there.

Secondly, there's a problem of uh of trying to understand uh like oh so you could run the split test actually in meta itself, which I've done uh done before to where meta will actually hold out different amounts of traffic. Uh by the way, this is another problem if you run the split test outside of a true AB test in meta, um then you get like weird remarketing happening in the ad account, so you can't actually see the total impact of your ads.

If you run the split test in meta itself, meta will actually hold out two groups of of customers from from from the rest of your account, but then again the same thing happens where you try to implement the winner and suddenly you've got to move a winning ad from one ad set to another, and then that creates problems, etc. Uh which leads to what my ideal solution would be for a long time had been my ideal solution, um except that there creates a prob there's another problem here.

My ideal solution would have been for a very long time, anybody who knows me knows that this this is probably the instinct that I would have, um it would be to simply duplicate your ad, launch it with a new lander, and let meta sort out how to spend the money basically. So, there you don't actually do a test at all. You just launch the new lander on the existing ad, and you uh and you you run it that way. Um there there's a reason though, at least two reasons why I have found that to be a an insufficient as much as I want that to work, I really want that to work.

There's because it sort of takes a lot of the human bias out of things, allows you to run it through manual bids, all the things that I like to do. The problem that I see there is twofold. Um and one of them is that uh that Meta optimizes the delivery of spend so far as I can tell based on engagement signals higher up in the funnel than conversion. And so if if the only thing the landing page is really changing is the conversion behavior, then uh then two ads that are the exact same ad theoretically are going to have very similar kinds of engagement on them, right?

Like uh video view uh length and clicks and shares and all that kind of stuff. And therefore Meta is going to use that signal from those upper funnel actions to deliver your ads and deliver your ads differently without really much reference to the landing page itself, which is lower funnel and takes longer to inform Meta of of the data. And so so the way Meta works with sort of Bayesian forecasting based on upper funnel upper funnel signal, uh as far as I can tell, is actually is a is a problem for testing landers because it's not going to do that.

Secondly, if you duplicate an ad in Meta, then theoretically Meta is going to ID that ad as the same ad as itself and and possibly just suppress your new ad off a new lander. So all of that stuff gets into the weeds even if you didn't follow all of that. Hopefully, I think a lot of people will relate to the idea of like feeling sort of confused about what the best way to test landers are. But that's where I kind of threw my hands up and did what I do when I throw my hands up, which is I went to Twitter and asked what people would say.

I just said, "Tell me what you think." And whenever I send a tweet like that, I'm just looking for like what are the answers that seem smartest to me and the most defensible, okay? So there is that Sorry, that's a lot of me talking for an episode of the guest, but that is where I'm starting from. You had, I think, the most compelling answer um of this. I also like something David Herman said quite a bit uh as well. And he he had a compelling solution that I haven't tried yet.

Um but you had the most compelling answer. So Brad, give any context do on that. Tell me anything you believe about the best way to go test landing pages. Am I right about the problems? Am I wrong about the problems? Go. You tell me what to do. >> Yeah, I think it frames up really nicely. So, thanks for thanks for laying that out. Um I can talk about the solutions, but I think one thing that I've been thinking about since we went back and forth on on Twitter about this and then a little bit in the DMs and then I've had a few conversations since then.

I think the the kind of premise that people go into it with is I'm trying to find a winning page. I don't actually think that's what you're trying to do. >> It's not an either or. It should be an and or I'm trying to find the best page for this group of people or I'm trying to find the best offer. Like it this this can extend beyond ad creative, uh landers and down to offers and and different parts of your your marketing funnel.

I think Shreen I I every time I bring up marketing tornadoes I always try to give credit to Shreen cuz um she said that one time and I think she made a LinkedIn post and it was beautiful. I've never actually talked to her, but I like it was it was just like a very eloquent way of saying this and I'm sure that will will come up um more uh as we as we dig into this further. And so, I think the premise of you going >> smart and like the funniest person in e-commerce.

She's so funny. >> Perfect. [laughter] Perfect. Yeah, we need we need we need more we need more funny people on the internet. Everyone takes themselves too serious. Um so, I think the premise is off the is that you're trying to find an either or solution when the the the solution might actually be and and that's just rooted in how meta actually does delivery. And so, um to to go back to that for a second and and and kind of like talk about okay, so what do what do we actually do?

When we are let's say we're I'll try to give an example. We're sending traffic >> I maybe you're going to say this, but I would actually really like to make sure people don't miss this point cuz I fall into this trap all the time. Um and and if you're about to say this, I I'm sorry to interrupt you. If you're if you're about to say the answer to this question, then just keep going. But if not, tell people what you mean by and instead of either or and try to make that as clear as possible because this is this is I think critical [snorts] actually. >> Yeah.

So, I'll use an example uh a different example. So, I wasn't going to answer this, so I'm glad you mentioned it. Um the the different example is let's say you have an ad and you sell an article of clothing that is trying to uh be positioned in a certain way and you send all that traffic to a product page right now. When people go into do a landing page test of some kind, they're trying they're trying to say, "We are trying to make a landing page that converts better than the PDP, has a better revenue procession, does X, Y, and Z.

It does better because we're going to replace the traffic to the PDP with traffic to the landing page." And I don't actually think that that's the goal. And so, winning can can present itself in a couple of different ways and we had an example of this recently that I think kind of drives this home. So, when I say and I mean, we duplicated we duplicated the top-performing ad there and we sent it to a landing page. That landing page ended up taking about 20% of the total spend through this campaign.

And now, most people look at that and say, "Well, okay, that didn't actually it's not actually spending more. It's not scaling in excess of the PDP. That's probably a loser." But, I I led with 20% intentionally because what what what that context is missing is that well, overall in spend through that product campaign increased by like $1,000 a day. So, it went from spending five grand a day to six grand a day. It's like that's that's the point is like, "Okay, we didn't Some people just they the PDP isn't enough for them.

And sometimes it is. It depends on where people are at in the buying stage. And sometimes you just need you need to be positioned in a different way. And I can give a bunch of different examples like how this actually presents itself in the ad account. But, the point is you're just trying to give Meta the tools to find the the right person at the right time with the right funnel tornado, whatever you want. And sometimes that's ad to PDP, sometimes that's ad to collection page or lander or quiz funnel or anything in between.

And the point I think is really interesting about this in the example that we re-DM'd about bit was the ad was the same. We didn't actually change the ad on the front end, which gets to you probably some of these other things later in the conversation, but >> yeah. >> It just it it it yeah, to to kind of go back to the end point is like, "Well, if you can increase the total spend in your ad account by just making a better purchase flow, you're not trying to decide between the two pages.

You're just trying to have those pages available for people to to visit." >> Before we go any further, you should like this video or this podcast wherever you're watching or listening to it, you should subscribe wherever you're watching or listening so you don't miss out on future content of mine. All that stuff really helps me a lot. Send it to a friend, etc. Thanks so much. Let's keep going. Yeah, so it's a it's a marginal 20 It's an incremental 20% or a marginal 20% you're saying.

Like, the point is it was only 20% of the spend, but the spend went up by 20%. And so and so So, in that respect, if you had just tried to split test that and get an or kind of answer, very likely, maybe the landing page wins, maybe the PDP wins, who knows, but but I bet your spend wouldn't have increased. In that respect, launching a landing page is just the same effort or just the same idea as launching new creative.

Where the point isn't The point we all know when we launch ads, we're not trying to find the winning ad. What we're trying to do is get find more spend. That's what we're trying to do. And so, when you when you launch a new lander, you're just doing the same thing, right? You're just trying to find more spend. And they stop In this case, instead of changing the creative, we're changing the ad. And of course, most creative that you're launching, like, if you if you're sending to a collection page or a PDP or whatever it is, in most cases, that creative is is actually not changing the landing page at all.

You're just changing a different part of the of the tornado, so to speak. And and so, yeah, so that that idea of trying to find more spend, not better spend, I think is is critical. >> Yeah, and and I think the people that listen to your podcast, they they understand your philosophy and we we we align very closely on, you know, cost control, things like that. And spend is a signal. We're trying to increase spend. We're not just saying increase spend without an acknowledgement of efficiency or what that means.

But, the other way that this sometimes prevents presents itself is, okay, efficiency gets better in the ad account, right? Like, now, we wouldn't want that, right? We're trying to spend at at as much as we can at a certain level of efficiency, and that's what we're shooting for. But, sometimes you just find that, okay, now we've got this new landing page and overall we're more efficient. And if you want to hold and take that more efficiency and not scale into it, fine.

But, it it can present itself in different ways. >> Yeah. Okay. um, okay, so that's important. So, the first goal then, which actually makes a split test a really bad mechanism now, right? So, this like begins to get us towards an answer because because, uh, because you, if you're not trying to just grow efficiency, if you're actually trying to grow spend, a split test isn't a very good way to answer that question. A better way to answer the what you actually want to do is see, can we launch a new asset of some kind into the ad account that that increases the total amount spent, uh, the total amount spent.

And so, now, and there's a there's a respect in which efficiency is scale, right? Because if you get more efficiency, what it really means you can spend more money at the same target. But, but, uh, but a split test, like I said, is sort of a bad mechanism for trying to do this. You're trying to find new customers that you were not otherwise able to reach before at that same target. Presumably, the landing page that you're testing your your land your your new lander against already was hitting your target.

Just You just want more spend, more scale in the process, okay? So, okay, great. >> [clears throat] >> So, if that's the idea, then this makes, like I said, a split test sort of a poor mechanism for finding the answer. Um, so, uh, let me actually bring in here, well, I don't want to do that, actually. Let me let me let's go now towards what you think a better answer is and what you suggested, um, which is to to to test the lander, and I'll let you state this, see if I have this right, either in the same ad or in the same CBO or whatever.

Uh, test the lander by just duplicating the ad that you that you already had going and attaching that new lander to it. Is that right? >> Yes, that's literally it. So, we can even get into like, okay, what does the lander say if that's that's if that's helpful at some point, but the mechanism for testing is going into the existing campaign. Now, um, maybe there's some assumptions that I shouldn't be making about how everybody sets up their campaigns, but okay, we're we're talking about a CBO that's product specific, and we've got one ad set in there, and we're just jamming as many ads in there as possible trying to find as much scale, right?

So, like that's the that's the TLDR of how we're setting up campaigns. We look at the top performing ad, we figure out, hey, who's responding to this and why do we think they're responding to it based on a bunch of different things, and you duplicate it, swap out the the the link for the new page, and then you hit publish and leave them both live. Like that's a really important distinction. I'm not saying replace it, I'm not saying go and edit the existing one, duplicate it, swap it out, and let it go live. >> You need to extend your creative team, and you can do that with my friends at Behind the Scenes Studio, BTSstudio.co.

Behind the Scenes Studio is a Meta Ads creative agency >> [music] >> that is built in the Philippines with great creative talent. They work very closely with me and my team, and some ways sort of downstream from a lot of my ideas, and are very connected. [music] We've staffed our entire creative team at AJ Growth with people from Behind the Scenes Studio, and you can work with them directly if that's the fit for you.

If you just need creative services, you want to do that in a way that is high quality, affordable, thinks kind of the way I do, go to BTSstudio.co and check it out for yourself. They just do a really, really good job building really good quality creative for a bunch of e-commerce brands across a whole bunch of different categories. And if you are trying to extend your team with direct response, traditional Meta Ads creative, you should give them a call.

They are in the Philippines, like I said, they are reasonably affordable, reasonably priced, and um and I think the the right brand to really work with BTS Studio, at Behind the Scenes Studio, is the brand that is saying like we have a good feel for our messages, we have a good feel for what we want to say, we just want to extend the ways that we say that with a really talented team of designers and editors who will deliver really good quality work on time consistently at a reasonable price.

That's that's the kind of brand that I'd love to be working with with Behind the Scenes, seven-figure, early eight-figure kind of range would be really good. So, BTSstudio.co, get on a call with them, see what their service looks like, see some of their creative, go check it out for yourself today. >> Makes perfect sense. So, okay. Now, here's So, I told you what my problems with this idea earlier was cuz again, this takes the human out of it a little bit.

If it's going to work, it spends, if it doesn't, it doesn't. I love that. Speaking my language. Get my stupid lizard brain out of the decision-making process. Let the machine learning do the work for me. You're speaking my language. Like you said, you and I I think align pretty closely. I don't know the full your full sort of setup and approach, but you and I have talked about this like we we tend to think the same way about that.

All right. So, if that's the case, um I I mentioned two problems with that idea. The first is the idea that Meta would theoretically not be able to ID very well that the new lander is actually going to create a different outcome and actually reach different people because Meta seems to uh build its initial projection of spend and therefore amount spent off of sort of upper funnel signals, um so to speak. Um okay, but my interpretation of things you've told me is that there just simply doesn't seem to be this problem so far as you can tell.

Have you Have you seen this like it where Meta just sort of delivers it to the same same person? Like I I don't know. How How do you Does Meta actually do a good job of doing this? >> For the most part, we've seen yes. And um it's it's hard to say it's hard to say that they're doing a bad job if cuz the assumption we're making is if it doesn't get spent, it wasn't good enough, right? So, like that's where this gets a little bit tricky.

So, the case that I'm I'm not necessarily making the case that they're perfect for it. I'm just saying um I've seen enough instances of it spend It's just like a piece of creative. Uh you launch a new piece of creative, it's a banger, it works really well, and it starts to scale. I've seen enough instances of doing that within a CBO, no forcing spend to head, no crazy no min budgets, none of that. Um I've just seen enough instances of doing that, and the winner wins.

Or in the case that I gave earlier, it takes up 20% of the spend. So, it still took up spend. It went from zero to 20% and it held there consistently. Um we still I've seen enough of those cases. And I you know, I had a conversation Actually, the the client that I'm using that example for, they have a Meta rep who's great. And I reached out to him, and I was like, "Dude, I'm not like I'm so confused by this. Like, what what's going on with creative ideas?

Like, why is this why is this the way that it is? And he didn't really have a great answer for me. So, um hopefully post-layoffs I have somebody that can answer this for us because I'd love to know, like, does something actually change on the back end when you swap out the URL? Um are you like are you guys changing the creative ID? Is there something unique that's happening on the back end that allows this to be the case?

I mean, they can obviously use things like landing page views or, you know, some of those pre-purchase events to make some distinctions, but his answer was basically "Yeah, we're crawling the page." Um cuz, you know, they're crawling it for all the crazy health stuff that people claim uh cuz they'll reject ads and put it put the you know, they'll throw the health and wellness tag on you if you're saying crazy stuff. So, they're crawling the page.

And he said that that is enough to differentiate delivery in the ad account. >> And that is that is so helpful. So, because cuz you just said something tricky, which is this ad ID thing. And this is like something I think I published and unpublished a an episode about a long time ago because I wasn't sure if I was talking out of turn, but this idea that Meta IDs your ads is seems to be true in some way where it I mean, this is sort of obvious, right?

That like Meta has a way of saying this these two ads are the same ad. Okay, right? And that's like like if you literally duplicated an ad and change nothing about anything about any of it, Meta would see that as the exact same ad, right? And that's because it has an ID and that's why it can have existing posts that transfer and carries comments over even if you don't actually change it to existing post, blah blah blah.

Um so, they they ID the ad. Um but what if So, so this is like been my concern is that if you if Meta can ID the ad or if Meta does not re-ID the ad, then then it won't um then it won't actually sort of send any different traffic to the lander. You showed me really compelling evidence that that was not uh that was that was not a problem here. And you've got a Meta up saying, "Yes, we we crawl the new page and we look at it and we we can then therefore or signal back to the ad, so to speak, that like this is now new and different.

Um and and so um what when you see this like what what does this end up looking like in your accounts? Do you see delivery look different, conversion rates look different? Like is there any sort of metric-based signal that that you're you're seeing really some kind of difference in the way that these ads are performing? >> Yeah. So the that specific example that I showed you and I can kind of describe it. So we I will I won't leak the specific client, but I'll I'll say rough uh rough demographic stuff.

But they they sell, let's call it an appliance to women 45 and up uh and we'll we'll leave it at that. Um so the unique insight was, "Hey, the founder uh the the ad is from a founder that's talking about why she created the product for people basically her age and approaching her age." Um and so we duplicated the that um that ad and sent it to a new lander and the lander kind of told that story again about why this solves a problem for that demographic specifically.

Uh and what we noticed about the delivery of the ad, and this was actually, you know, I hadn't looked back on this um for a while cuz this was a while ago that this kicked off, but one of the most interesting insights was 45 and women 45 to 54 got something actually more efficient at first and then we spent into it and scale has increased. But 55 to 64 and 65 up actually didn't really change overall. And so the next insight is like "Shoot, should we just duplicate that and say women 55 and up and women 65 and up on the landing page and like what does that do?" Um because you know, like lumping lumping a bunch of human beings into there based on their age is like it's useful in some cases for you know, things like eyesight or skin or whatever, but they're so unique uh individually between that and that's something that I struggle with is like how how would you niche to these pages be?

Um you know, how specific do we want these to make? Well, I think ads you and I would probably agree like we want to make pretty specific ads um cuz that that helps with delivery. But that was one thing that stood out is the actual delivery to uh women that we were specifically speaking to on that page like clearly improved um from an efficiency and then a spend standpoint. The other thing that stood out um metric-wise, there's two other metrics that really stood out.

Everybody's obsessed with CPMR right now. I don't know that I am. >> Not me. >> [laughter] >> I I think you know Phil and everybody talks about like they're super smart and I just think I think it's more lagging than it is anything else. And so like it might tell you something that spending efficiency already told you is kind of where I stand on this and I haven't seen it it be predictive of anything. But it's still interesting.

So for everybody that cares about CPMR, CPMR improved and we we doubled the spend on this thing over the course of two months and CPMR either held or improved and that shouldn't like that shouldn't happen by default unless you really have it unlocked that you know tells meta like hey you should reward me because I'm creating a better user experience for the people on your platform. The only other thing off platform that stood out that was really interesting was bounce rate.

And now I typically like you know this bounce rate feels a little bit like cost per click CTR for me where it's like a little hand wavy like I don't know what if I can do anything with this but the PDP's bounce rate was like 90% the landing page was 70%. What to me that says is people are resonating with this page long like more than the product page where they're going to stay on this page longer and consume the content.

Now >> Yep. >> spending efficiency told me that answer so I didn't really need bounce rate to tell me but it's you know it's a nice little secondary metric. >> Yeah it's yeah right yeah it's it's sort of nice as a confirming thing of sort of what the mechanism is for doing this and that is the mechanism you would expect right which is that like that that that's what it accomplished so okay so then that's one example you guys do this whenever you're working on landing pages for clients this is something you're um this is something you is is this like your your SOP for testing landers you just take the ad duplicate it launch the new lander? >> Yeah that's the basic version is okay we've got I think it makes the most sense to build it around one specific ad as long as you know I think we're probably somewhat similar in that typically we're making ads that are a minute to two minutes long like there's enough of a story being told in there that you can build the landing page around that entire premise.

There's a defined persona pillar or core message you're kind of speaking to and so I think the easiest way to do it is build around one specific ad and if you need to bring in other pieces, you certainly can. But then, yeah, duplicate out that top-performing ad and a couple of other ones, and swap out the page. One thing that was really interesting, um that happened in the one of these tests that I'm alluding to, um with the women 45 and up, is we actually duplicated an ad that wasn't getting any spend at the PDP, and it became the second top-spending ad.

Like, it wasn't performing with the PDP, but all of a sudden it started to work with the lander. Now, that opens up a huge can of worms cuz it's like you got hundreds of ads live that you thought never worked. You go back and duplicate them. I don't I don't know. I don't have an answer for you. >> But yeah, the standard SOP is is is yes. Like, duplicate that out. You You mentioned like, okay, how do What do we How do we What do we do with tools like IntelliGyms and and split testing tools like with this context in mind?

I still think they're super useful for a bunch of onsite things generally speaking. But But even in the case of even in the case of landers, like you're If you're going from five to seven reasons why, or you're changing something about like the buy box on the page, or you're changing something about the page that doesn't fundamentally change who you're trying to reach, I think it makes a ton of sense. Now, if you're going from five reasons why women 45 and up to an advertorial, again, that's that's not an That's not an either or.

That's the That's the and situation. But if it's, okay, you're still reaching the same person, and you just want to see if the buy box converts better. Sure. You draw IntelliGyms tests. I think that makes a ton of sense. >> That's really That's a That's a smart use of that tool. Um is uh uh is So, actually, let me let me actually sort of think about this also at the media buying level a little bit more. Um Do Does it matter to you if you launch the new lander in the same ad set and a different ad set uh in the same CBO or in a different campaign?

Um Dave Herman suggested something interesting in that same thread. It's sort of my other favorite answer of anything. He said um He said what he'll do a lot is create a new He'll take sort of top ads where they're building new landers for them, create a second campaign that's sort of like the lander testing campaign or whatever. Um and and maybe put a cost control on it, maybe not. But basically, like have have that be the place that he goes and puts duplicate landers in as a way to see if you can sort of extend the spend by just sort of putting it into that one campaign.

Um there's some things I don't like about that for a couple of reasons. There's some things I do like about that that's a little compelling, but um, but but what you guys do, right, is like just straight up new ad in the same ad set. Does it Does it matter to you if it's in the same ad set or if it's a different ad set? Like, do you care? >> I lean towards same ad set just because we generally are just trying to max out ad sets anyways before moving on.

I do like the the organization of duplicating it into a new ad set within the same CBO and labeling that ad set for the landing page so you know that all of the ads in there are for that landing page. Like, there's there's something that that does for my brain that sounds nice. We just, you know, I don't think between those two options I don't think it really makes a huge difference as long as you're kind of thinking about, "Okay, do I have enough of volume to allow Meta to be efficient within this ad set?" But that same rep told me, you know, we had a long conversation about what is the what is the what is the function of an ad set if you're not changing the targeting, you know, the bid type or whatever.

And it's like, "It's a folder." Is is kind of the conclusion that he that we came to. And so I think that's fine. Dave's Dave's answer I thought >> that as well. I thought I think it's a great solution. Though, I think we'll probably dislike it for similar reasons, which is if your ad account is already at its spend limit and you're trying to force spend into something new Like, if it if the ad account I think Taylor already used an analogy of a pipeline one time before your ad account.

And you're trying to expand the pipeline. So, you don't know if the if if the ad if the lander worked, great. You were able to expand your your expand your expand your ad account and your spend. At the same time, do I want to force spend to find that out if I don't think I need to force spend? That's why that's why I don't love that solution, but for people that are more comfortable ribbon spend on testing campaigns and things like that, I think it's a totally viable solution. >> And Dave Dave may be doing that with cost control.

I'm not I'm not actually sure about that. So, I don't want to put words in his mouth, but yeah. Um, the uh yeah, I you're right. That that it is it is the thing I'm always trying to avoid, which is like spending dollars that may not create value. I'd I'd much rather have a machine predict that than me try to analyze it. Um, so uh so yeah, that's interesting. Do you um uh I don't want to speak for Zach here, but do you know what he does?

I feel like he does a lot of landing page testing, uh, stuff as well. And I don't know if if this is something you guys have talked about, but I'm curious if if, uh, because because Scalability School is you guys, and everybody should go be listening to that. Um, uh, really really great podcast. Actually, one of the only e-com podcasts I I like to tune into ever. Um, uh, but but, uh, yeah, do you can you can you speak Zach's voice into this conversation at all?

Or would you rather resist doing that? >> Yeah, I can I can I can do a little bit of it. Um, and the mostly because we have we literally recorded a podcast last week about this. Depending on when this is coming out, it may or may not be out. It probably won't be because we're we release way in advance or way after we record, rather. So, it's probably going to be a bit, so sorry you have to hang tight. But, there's a couple things that that he does, and so I think they generally have this kind of similar uh similar testing structure where they'll kind of like duplicate and allow ads to earn spend, but they're also more comfortable like forcing spend.

They're just at They both lands, they're just at an insane scale where like we're we're okay having a testing budget to see how these things go. But, they've they've recently just shifted more to like the if we have an ad that talks about a specific pillar, as he defines it, which is about cortisol, it needs to go to a landing page that talks about cortisol. It's just like that is just good marketing. Like it just makes sense to do that.

Um, the other thing that was really interesting that came up in that conversation that I didn't realize until I watched it back is that if you click on, let's say you click on a cortisol ad and you go to that cortisol landing page, the next time you click an ad, if you've been to the website before it, they actually forward you to the PDP by default. I don't know how I feel about that. That kind of that kind of flies in the face of my tornado analogy, or I guess Shreen's tornado analogy, a little bit, where you're allowing Meta to determine that.

But, I thought that that was something interesting that that that stood out. But, their basic premise is we need to launch all every single ad to a lander that matches it, and then they'll duplicate it over to additional landers from there. So, they generally start with a listical, maybe a quiz, and then they'll go advertorial, and they'll kind of expand the page type from there, but generally starting with, um, kind of listicals. >> A client recently was showing me some posts that creators and influencers had posted of their brand.

The client, I don't think they mind me saying, was Little Words Project. Little Words Project was showing me that some creators and influencers had posted their brand on their Instagram feeds like organically. And that was cool. I'm always glad to see people posting a great brand like Little Words Project. But what I sort of freaked out about was the interface they were showing me the posts through. They showed me this feed of posts that or this feed that was showing every time a creator and influencer on the internet had posted their product.

And the thing I really loved was as an Meta advertising guy, of course I was thinking I want to get all of these posts into the ad account. And there's this big button on this feed not only tracking the engagement of each post and the reach of each post and all that stuff which is amazing and helpful in and of itself, but there was a button on each one of them that said request usage rights. And with one click I could go and ask that influencer if we could get usage rights for that content.

And also there's a button that says request partnership access. And so again, with like one click I could get partner ads set up from the creator or the influencer if they were willing to do it. And that is a massive amount of friction reduction. The software they were showing me that did this that I again like sort of freaked out about was called Refunnel. As as Lauren who's been guest on the show was showing me Refunnel, I started going, "Oh my goodness, this is so helpful." Because if you know anything about creator and influencer marketing and and monitoring the content that's being posted on social feeds, you know it is a freaking operational mess.

It is loaded with friction at every part of the process. Tracking posts, getting access to posts, getting those posts in your ad account, getting partnership access, paying influencers if you create any part of that relationship. Refunnel exists to solve all of that and make it so that you could actually stay on top of those things, use the posts in the ways [music] that are going to be useful for your brand. To me it is a like non-negotiable product to have if you are serious about influencer and creator marketing in any way.

If you're just building that program or if you're already deep into it, you must check out Refunnel. One of the pieces of software that I absolutely love. I reached out to them. I wanted to get them as an advertiser on this show cuz I like the product so much. Now multiple of my clients are using it. You should too. refunnel.com Go check out the software. Just an incredibly helpful piece of software that is worth every penny. refunnel.com That's interesting.

People should go subscribe to Scalability School. I'll There is a link in the show notes for this episode to that so that you don't miss that episode where you can hear Zach. And Zach I think is just best in class at this exact kind of thinking and and stuff where it's like mass producing large amounts of assets to push an ad account forward. He's just He's just like my favorite person to listen to talk about that kind of stuff.

He's just really good at it. So >> Yeah. >> So you should definitely go listen to that. >> 30 paid 30 pages live or something he said during that episode. It's like that's an insane amount. And they sell one skew. Like that's I think that's that's the really interesting piece about this is Mars has one skew, but they have a bunch of different personas. And he talked about this on Operators episode not too long ago or about like you know just make sure you want to have a lot of personas that can respond to a lot of different things.

Um now maybe you got lucky and selected a a product category that allows you to do that. I don't think he got lucky. I think he's very smart. But >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So Yeah. It worked out. >> Um Okay. Then um Then let me let me ask you about sort of landing page development a little bit more here. Let's talk about um uh outside of the media buying tactics testing kind of things. Um let's start by thinking about uh so like sort of opportunity selection which I think is underrated for these sort of things.

Assuming resources are limited in some way even though they are um when you're looking at an ad account, how do you think about uh where where to be putting landing page test efforts first? Like do you just go to your highest spending ads and try to extend their spend by putting on a new lander? Like what how do you approach it? >> I think that's that's one of the easiest ways to do this um just cuz you have an individual ad that gives you a very clear signal that there's an opportunity here to to dig deeper into.

Um one thing that I've also liked recently is uh using Motions AI tagging tools um to like give more insights into this. So, they have the their AI tags can tell you things like um who the personas are uh in aggregate across the entire account, what the messaging angles are. And I think what that can do, and this is this is another underrated part of landing pages is like you might see something that is seasonally relevant.

Maybe it's only relevant for the summer. Does that mean you shouldn't make a landing page for it cuz it's only going to work for 3 months? My argument would be no. It's like if you can get more efficient for the next 3 months because you have a landing page that that speaks to that, then um then you can go down that route. So, generally I will start by hey, what are my top spending ads in the ad account? Are they all kind of saying the same thing?

Are they differentiated in any particular way? I think the issue that people sometimes run into is they've got three top spending ads, but they all say slightly different things. You're not trying to make a landing page that does those three things. You just be specific to one, and that's why I like picking one. But, if you look at, you know, your motion your motion tags or however you categorize your your pillars, your core messages, what's nice about that is I can see how things are trending over time.

I can see hey, is it is it the to use the Mars example, is it cortisol? Is it sleep? Is it something else in aggregate? So, I know where the biggest opportunity really is because some sometimes your top spending ad isn't the big biggest messaging angle, but those are just those are two ways that we think about developing those. >> Yeah. Um okay, that that makes sense. And then so, you go you go and build that off of those landers.

What about that second situation you talked about? And maybe you just mentioned it, but the second situation you talked about which is sort of uh an ad that that you develop a lander for that isn't the ad isn't work It's not like your top spender, uh but you think there's opportunity to get it to spend more with just like a better landing page experience. Like is that just gut feel? Are you looking at something and going like uh this is spending a little bit, we think we can extend it? >> Yeah, I think if it's if the messaging of that ad is different enough from your your top spender, it's maybe worth making a custom lander for. >> just saying. >> But, I mean even if you're like I mean if you've got I I a lot of people's ad accounts it's like we've got we've got 10 ads that are taking up the most of our spend and within those 10 ads there's two that are like 80% of the the big chunk of spend.

Um if they're if they're roughly the same messaging, I I think as long if your resources are limited and you can only make one page, like just duplicate all the ads that have some semblance of of scent between the ad and the lander that you just made and just send them all there and see what happens cuz like the downside in the way that we're talking about testing this is they don't spend, right? And if they do, you're pleasantly surprised.

Now, if you've got hundreds of ads live and you're after your page limit and you're worried about it, okay, no need to do that, but um you know, if you're if you're we're playing a low-risk game here, I don't think there's anything wrong with duplicating some of those some of those ads and uh sending a new lander to it. >> Okay, let's do some let's do some landing page design talk a little bit. Uh and some of the things that are important.

So, my first question for you is do you try to make a checkout experience on the lander so that it goes straight from there to checkout or you sending people from a lander to a PDP as a general rule? >> The first starting point that we always do is go lander to the PDP. Um Zach has >> a pre-sale pre-sale lander, right? Like that's the idea. >> Squeeze page, whatever they used to call it back in the day. Yeah, it's uh >> the whole >> Yeah, yeah. >> convincing them to go to the PDP. >> 1997 or whatever, yeah. >> [laughter] >> Yeah, I think that's a I think that's an Ezra Firestone classic, probably.

I feel like he he coined that term. >> Every everything goes back to Ezra at some point. >> does, yeah. So, yes, it it'll click over to the PDP directly. Um but Zach gave some compelling reasons why you should actually just extend out your pages um and just add the more shoppable experience to the bottom of the page and we've not we've not dug into that too much, but that's to me that's a when you go from when you go from the zero to one, which is like just making the landing pages, don't don't block yourself by not adding a shoppable section at the bottom um if that's like some technical limitation cuz you're going to get most of the bang for your buck by having a headline that matches your ad and the page mostly communicates to your customer.

One extra click to your product page is not going to destroy anything. Once you've got the page that's like dialed in and working really well, then I think it makes sense. This is where the Intellimize thing I think works really well. You can you can add that shoppable section to the bottom and I think you could see some some wins there, which I think Zach did recently. So. >> Um okay, that's interesting. So uh okay, so if you can if it's not too technically difficult, put the make a shoppable on the lander.

If if not, you're not going to kill yourself by having an extra click. Okay, that's great. Um the uh what about page structure? Is I mean is it like is it like listicles or everything? Nobody reads anything, so just go listicles. Like do you have any sort of thoughts on that sort of stuff? >> I think listicles are the easiest place to start. It's it's images and copy and the copy is probably what matters the most, which I know is like a scary thing to think about cuz everybody wants to throw stuff into Claude and let it rip.

I've seen the the amount of like very obviously Claude designed landing pages that and I'm not ripping on it. I I got I think it's great. Like Claude enables people to make pages, you should you should do that. But also like don't let the machine write all the copy for you cuz it's probably going to do a a pretty terrible job unless you've got a lot of really thoughtful instructions about how things should be communicated.

But focus on nailing the copy, grab some images that match the the seven, five, 10 reasons that you have and I think that's the easiest starting place to go with. And you know, I mean if you click on any popular D2C brands ads right now and it's going to send you probably to a listicle and there's going to be a comparison chart on there that just compares you to alternative products directly, alternative brands directly, or just like alternative solutions that you might not be considering or the bad alternatives that pops up pretty commonly.

All of those are kind of the core elements of that that we see. I will say I think advertorials are hard to hit and I think it probably requires a pretty defined audience, but I love taking like a founder a founder video and writing the advertorial in the founder's language. I think that can work extremely well. It's kind of the founder story expanded. >> Yeah. That's a really good idea and that's actually AI doable, right?

You take the transcript from the video and you you you feed it to Plotto or whatever, have it write it and then go go to an edit off of that and you probably have the bulk of it written. That's a smart idea, I think. >> Yeah. >> Uh exactly. >> Do you >> Good. I was just going to say like other other ways like get inspiration for designs. Like once you have these pages live you should you should make sure you have Clarity installed.

It's free. Like there's really no downside to it. Maybe there's some page loading stuff that I'm you know uh you could be concerned about. I'm not. Um but install Clarity. Microsoft Clarity is free and then you can you should actually like watch some of the recordings. Like set the page live and then watch the recordings. We tested um we tested a quiz funnel for a client and uh I watched like 15 recordings in in a row.

Literally not a single person started the quiz. Now we this page was winning. Like it worked. It was taking up spending in the ad account and nobody was taking the quiz and I you know I'm super confused as to why this is happening and I honestly still don't haven't gotten to the bottom of exactly why that's the case. But the solution is we Okay, well how do we make it easier for people to get to the product if they're not taking the quiz?

We added a button right below start the quiz that said shop the product and that increased revenue perception by 20% and that's where that's that's another case where we're using IntelliGyms on the back end to test that that variant. Um but just like watching You think you'd be surprised by what you can learn from watching recordings. Sometimes it's really frustrating cuz it's like just click the add to cart button. What are you doing?

Where are you going? >> [laughter] >> Uh but for the most part like there's there's a lot of really fun things you can learn from watching it. Um maybe that's maybe that's maybe I'm a sick person that enjoys that but uh yeah. >> I mean there's some elements to where like everybody wants everything to turn into an AI process that does it all for you but like there's a there's you have to have a human I think who is thinking, you know?

I think you do. I think you do anyway. Maybe not but I think you do. Um and yeah. I think the the marketer who's actually going to think about who that customer is is probably going to get further. Um Okay, I like that. Anything else on the sort of like rapid-fire end Brad that you you look at and you say uh you say like these are the other keys that we believe in for landing page uh efforts? >> I just think he's like he's really easy to forget that you're trying to match I think the word that my business partner uses like matching the scent.

It's like you you watch your ad and your hook is very different than what you land on on your landing page. Like if you're talking about uh aesthetics in your ad and you go to a landing page that's talking about comfort like you've you've lost. Like it's that like you need to you need to be and that goes all the way through the page. The images should be consistent with what your reasons are talking about which should be consistent with the persona that you're trying to build for.

Um, Zach gave some really good tips a while back that's like uh and now everybody seems to be doing this where your your PDP images should be you know um there should be things in those PDP images. What's like well, why not take it a step further and make those PDP images persona specific if that's what that's what shows up on your landing page. Um, but no otherwise I I don't I don't have a ton. I do I have a I do have a question for you.

Uh >> Okay, yeah. Yeah, yeah. >> So let me throw that back to you. When you you're you're you're thinking about landing pages and how you guys uh can provide it. I see you talk about that a little bit I'm sure. Um, Patrick uh thinking about how to build it into the AJFOS. Um >> Yeah, the worst the worst the worst named piece of software in the world. >> right. It's uh it's it's it's uh it's it's grown on me. >> As I joked before we're literally a bunch of marketers and nobody can come up with a name for it. >> Naming is the worst.

Like it's it's the worst. I hate it. We're trying to do it right now for a brand that is it's just miserable. >> It's the worst, yeah. Okay, so go ahead. >> If you guys are building this out like how do you think about your service expansion um and how how like what is the people brands are now expecting more with AI. >> More means a lot of different things and to a lot of different people. >> Um, but how are you guys thinking about your service and and how you are going to roll landing pages out and you know why does it make sense for you to do?

Is it because your your media buyers are dialed in on the ad account and the creative and it's just like we know what's working from a messaging standpoint it shouldn't be that hard to build a landing page. Um, a lot in there but I think you can all have a go at getting that. >> Well, the the first thing you need to know about me is that I'm kind of terrible at making money. Um, and so as far as like how I think about pricing the service and all that, like I think I'm pretty good at growing other people's brands.

Uh, as far as like actually thinking intelligently about how to drive money for myself and for Yeah, anyway, I I think there's like a there's a it's worth noting that I that what I'm about to say may not come from the best considered perspective on how an agency ought to price this service and think about it as part of the total services. I feel like I'm still learning a lot about that. So there's that. Uh, caveat disclaimer to start.

Secondly, though, um, I uh I I think for us a lot of the logic of this is that our entire creative process is rested on the foundation of the message. And so the idea is like if the message is the thing that moves the needle, then then we should be able to start by performing messages that we think work. All of our creative should be tied back to a message and that's sort of just naturally lends to the thing that you just said, which is like the goal here is to align the message across the entire experience for the customer.

Well, what are we missing there? We're missing a landing page. So we should be driving that. But then secondly, the other part of this I think is that I think the other gigantic potential needle mover in this process for clients to win really big is the offer. So, the message is the is the foundation of sort of like how you grab and get attention and interest. The offer's how you close the deal, basically. Um, and so I want more control over that if we are going to be judged on the performance of a client's ad account.

And so the way we have come up with our landing page service is like is is that we want to be able to implement both messaging that's consistent across the funnel while also being able to uh, being able to change offers at different parts of that process in a way that we think can drive additional value. And so, um, so what we are doing to do that right now is we have an agent built landing page set up that ties into all of our messaging focused architecture like A J F O S architecture and Prometheus architecture like talked about on this.

Um and that sort of can spit out the lander to do that. And I'll just shoot really straight with you and tell you that like we haven't seen huge wins with that yet. Um not not yet. Now, we also haven't done that much testing of it. It isn't hasn't been the main place that we've gone. And so, um I but I think a part of that is a my own I have felt too uncertain about how to do the implementation across a bunch of steps of that process to really push that product forward and that service forward as much as I wanted.

Right now, though, I think we are planning on not necessarily charging for it um as as a standalone service. I think it would sort of be bundled in and included uh with what we're doing. Now, in some sense, we are charging for it cuz somebody on the team has to make put the time in to go build it even though AI is doing the bulk of the work, there's still a human in the loop, right? Somebody has to read it, edit it, all that kind of stuff.

And so, in one sense, we are charging for it because that person then has to spend less time on other creative. Um and that means it is a cost. So, we'll see how we think about it. Um we may end up doing it as a standalone service that isn't isn't super expensive. Like, there's a few different ways to think about it, but yeah, that's kind of the overall picture. Did that answer your question at all? >> Yeah. Yeah, no, I'm just Yeah, I think that that answers it really well.

And I I guess I'm also just curious, like, do you think clients are starting to expect it from you guys? Like, is that something that they expect? >> They really like They really like the idea that we can do it. Um they they like they like the thought that they don't have to go to somebody else to build landing pages. And I'll tell you, here's another thought I have. As an agency media buying guy, I hate working with landing page agencies.

I [laughter] I hate it. Um and it actually has nothing to do with their skill level. First of all, well, it sometimes has something to do with their skill level, but not in the way it sounds like. Um first of all, there I I know that it's very hard to build an agency that actually operationalizes knowledge very well. And so, one thing that happens is that like there's just a really wide range of quality between not only agencies, but probably um you know, strategists within the agency or whatever.

So, we've So, we're trying to build our media spend with some some landing page agency that the the client has hired as well to try to grow their spend. The landing page agency has a way they like to do things. Maybe the landing page agency hates everything you and I just talked about testing wise, right? They're like, "No, you have to set up a separate testing campaign, split test it in Intel gems, whatever it is." Um and so they're going to be annoyed if we do that and then and then when it doesn't work, they're going to say it's because your cuz your media buyers suck and they don't know how to do it, you know.

So, there's just all this friction. And then also like we have to figure out how to say like the the landing page agency will be like, "Well, um like uh your you know, your ad creative isn't good enough or we're testing on the wrong creative or the wrong product or the wrong offer. And so, they'll sort of point the finger back at us. And and I don't really blame them. Like all of that is sort of understandable in some respects.

They're they're just they're probably good people trying to do their best and they're struggling with the same thing that we're struggling with, which is that they have a very different process than us. So, I really want it to work because not only would it be a great way, you know, the thing I'm trying to build all the time is for us to go um to to provide more services with fewer clients all the time. And and uh what I mean is not we're trying to reduce our clients.

Uh but but I'm trying to say like we're trying to keep a small client load per team and do deeper work with fewer clients as the as the sort of differentiator of AJF Growth. So, I've said this before, but our clients only work on our teams only work on three clients at a time. I want us to be able to deploy as much work as possible against those three clients as long as we can maintain a really high quality of the work.

And if we charge for it, then we're we'll add team, you know, like I'm not saying we're going to um just run up our margin for forever on that. Um but that's that's what we're kind of constantly trying to do is to build teams that really embed more deeply with less clients. That means landing pages will be part of it. It would solve a real pain point. It's one less meeting potentially for the client to take, you know, um it gives our growth strategist more weapons to play with.

So, I really I really like the idea of us having that skill really built. I think the client really likes that idea. Uh you know, building a service is hard. And so, um there's you know, what what you may or may not realize Brad is that I brought you onto this show so that I can export the transcript, build it into an SOP, uh and then uh just like just fully steal the knowledge from you and and then charge for it at AJF Growth or maybe not charge for it cuz like I said I suck at making money.

So, there you go. >> Perfect. No, that that's exactly what led us down this route as well. So, I figured we'd be on a similar page with that, but makes a ton of sense. I've I'm finding this a lot for you and me here, which is that you and I think we have some similar instincts on a lot of things. You're a baseball guy, that's the only thing that I think we differ on. >> [laughter] >> Not a baseball guy. >> What are you? >> I don't know.

Football mostly, which is ironic I played soccer for 18 years. So, World Cup is interesting right now, but otherwise you will not catch me watching a soccer match. >> Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Tell people where to follow up with you if they want more from you, if they want to buy something you're selling, if they want to work with you, which they like listen, there's there's plenty of fish in the sea like there's probably ways in which you and I are doing things that are competitive to each other, but go work with Brad.

He's great. Brad, what people what should people do with you or or just follow you or DM you or whatever? >> Yeah, if you want to check out Scale Ability School podcast, we release an episode every other week. That would be awesome. Would love for you to tune in and pull you can you can download those episodes and turn them into SOPs just like Andrew is here. That's great. [laughter] If you feel like this like landing page discussion is like really prohibitive and you're stuck on where to go, just shoot me a DM on Twitter, send me your brand and if you're if you know, the caveat here is you got to be spending a decent amount of money in order to like this has to work.

You can't be at zero, but just send me a DM and like I'm I'm I'll crank out a free design to show you what it looks like. If that's helpful to get you started on the landing page direction. So, just DM me on Twitter. But otherwise, no, thanks for thanks for having me. I was looking forward to this for a long time. I know I was a little bit uh tricky to get on the phone, but I appreciate you bearing with me. >> No, I same same thing.

I've I've really enjoyed interacting with you a bunch. You've become one of those people I just like look forward to talking to you about any of this kind of stuff or listening to. So, it's been it's been a pleasure and people don't know this, but this is our first ever actual conversation I think, right? Have we ever talked before this? >> No, this is I think this is it. >> Yeah, yeah. Just different stuff. >> Yeah, just Loom's back and forth and DM's and stuff, but >> Exactly. >> Um cool.

All right. Well, thanks so much Brad. I appreciate it. Everybody like I said go follow up the links for all of that including Brad's X profile for you to go for you to go DM him. All all that stuff is in the show notes. So just go click on that or the description on YouTube and that's it. Brad thanks very much. Thank you. >> [music] >> I loved that episode. I hope you did as well. Brad is great man. He's just great really helpful guy and thoughtful clear thinker on a lot of things.

Definitely go check out scalability school. Definitely go check out his X feed. DM him if you need some help with a bunch of different stuff all related to what we were talking about. You can also reach out to me at ajfgrowth.com or email me at podcast@ajfgrowth.com. If you go to the website ajfgrowth.com fill in the intake form if you want to work with us as we continue to develop our services. Fill out that intake form tell me a little bit about your business what you're struggling with what you need help with and see if we can be some help to you.

Even if I can't I might know somebody who can be and I'd love to talk to you about it. So >> [music] >> do all of that and then of course follow up with my excellent sponsors for this episode. That is behind the scenes studio of whom I'm a huge fan as I said btsstudio.co and Refunnel just a great piece of software. If you're serious at all about creator relationships influencer relationships product seeding that kind of thing Refunnel is just a necessary part of your stack at this point.

So go to refunnel.com check that out as well. I have a bunch of great episodes coming up. I mentioned it earlier but Alex Cooper's coming on the podcast. I think I mentioned it to talk about research and how to build messaging how to learn who your customers are what they're thinking about how to build messaging that that resonates with them. [music] So that's going to be a great episode of course great other stuff coming up.

I need to be done with this episode. That's it. You know what to do. Subscribe all the stuff. Thanks. Talk to you soon.