How To Scale YouTube Ads To $10,000/Day (With Brett Curry) transcript

If you've had success on meta ads and you're ready to take that success and scale it up more with YouTube ads, then this is the episode for you. This is a conversation with Brett Curry from OMG Commerce. Brett's been in the game for a long time. He's been in digital marketing for 15 years with the bulk of that over the last bunch of years focused on Google and YouTube. He's run YouTube spends for a whole bunch of brands and big ones, small ones, omni channel, DTOC, Pure Play.

He's done it all. And in Brett's experience, there's a whole bunch of stuff that you can learn about how to run YouTube ads successfully and profitably for your brand. And so I just went piece by piece with Brett and thought about how do we take what we know to work on meta and get it over to work on YouTube as well. We talked about media buying. We talked about measurement, which is really tricky on YouTube sometimes.

We talked about creative. We talked about shorts versus horizontal instream video for YouTube. Everything in between. This is a really step-by-step hands-on, easy to implement guide to how to win on YouTube with Brett getting really specific. I personally found this episode extremely helpful. I'm going to send it over to the rest of my team for sure to think about and look at think about how do we scale on YouTube. You're going to find it successful as well.

Let's get into it with Brett Curry, OMG Commerce, talking about how to win on YouTube once you've been successful on Meta. What's happening Brett? What is up, Andrew Ferrris? Man, I am excited to be here and pumped to talk about YouTube. It is YouTube is having a moment right now. People are talking about YouTube, thinking about YouTube, dreaming about YouTube. Uh or maybe it's just me, but I'm excited to be chatting about it.

Uh that's my sense is that YouTube is having a moment actually. Um for a long time, here's my context for this. For a long time, I've thought there is simply no baseline reason why Meta ought to be crushing YouTube so much for video ads that drive profitable purchases for TDC brands. The inventory is good quality inventory. The people it's reaching on YouTube is everybody. Everybody watches YouTube. There's endless inventory.

It might as well be limitless. I know people, you know, the average YouTube session is like whatever they say like 42 minutes. Yeah. 42 minutes, I think, is the most recent number that I've heard. Yeah. So just like there's just plenty of time spent on YouTube, plenty of eyeballs. Like Google should have plenty of targeting. They've been around for longer than Facebook has. They uh they so like any sort of algorithmic advantage, data advantage that you would expect meta to have.

I don't I It seems to me that Google should have plenty of data. Like I So I've never understood why YouTube has been so bad for e-commerce brands relative to Meta. like why is it that DTOC brands cannot spend dollar for dollar on YouTube what they spend on meta and and sort of secondarily to that maybe that's changing like I'm just seeing I have one client who's like getting closer to like their YouTube spend starting to come up with that and they're not a huge brand like um so let let me start here Brett like that's that's my context for you to have hoped for this for a long time it's one of the reasons I'm optimistic about e-commerce in general is it seems to me that that inventory is going to open up for D2C brands and be be more viable but is it now is you said, you said it's a hot topic.

Um, it's having a moment like is it actually more viable now than it used to be or are people measuring it better? Like what is happening? Yeah, it's it's a really interesting question. So, my perspective is is a little bit different in that I've been a YouTube fan since like 2016 or 2017. So, I did a little bit of TV in the past, like pre-OMG. I did TV, radio, and offline stuff. And so, I've always loved TV advertising.

I also did SEO. So, in the early days of OMG, we were an SEO company, believe it or not, back when that was a huge, huge thing. And so, YouTube was kind of this blend of everything in my world. It's sort of like TV in some placements. There's some targeting that's similar to searchbased ads, or at least you can build audiences that way. And so, I I've seen it work really well for years. Like, we we've taken brands from zero to a million dollars a month in spend since, you know, 2018, 2019.

Uh, but I do think there's a few things that are getting better. I I think the way you can target is improving in in some ways. Like as an example, demand genen now just has legit lookalike audiences. I think Google's really advanced in a lot of ways, but like lookalike audiences. Been around Meta for what, six, seven, eight years? I don't know. Like like they're just now coming around for demand genen. So I think that's a big piece.

But really just the the understanding of how you measure there's a lot of clarity around that and the understanding around how the creatives are different. There's understanding around that as well. And so and I think there's just a lot of people that are kind of reached a ceiling on meta and so now it's time for them to look elsewhere for the next level of scale. Yeah, the TV comparison is interesting. But see, even that the next level of scale, like why wouldn't it be why would you have to wait to get to the next level of scale with YouTube, you know?

Do you do you see what I'm saying? Why do people why do people sequence it like that? Yeah. So, I think I think there's a few things. I think one meta is just set up to be easier to get started, right? You can start with with static ads and some copy. You can start with 15 second ads, vertical videos just, you know, shot by influencers. Pretty simple. With YouTube, you need you can start with with influencer and UGC type ads, but you need some polish to it.

You need some editing uh done to that. Generally speaking, longer form videos work better. So, a minute to 90 seconds and and higher for for conversion focused campaigns. So, you need a little bit longer video. Um, and I think the the speed at which the algorithm works on Meta seems to be faster. And then I think there's also just a lack of comfort. If you're if you're staring at a YouTube campaign for the first one week, two weeks, three weeks, four weeks, the performance looks bad.

You you want to bail, right? You you want to you want to jump ship on that. Whereas with meta, I think you see performance a little bit sooner. And so it's it's easier to tinker and kind of kind of keep moving up. So I think you can introduce YouTube sooner, but I think it's less comfortable. There's a lot there that that will maybe help us unpack this a little bit more. So let's start with the thing you just said which is you maybe need three or four weeks staring at it to see it perform.

So you know what do you mean by that? So do you do you mean there's you could mean one of two things. You could mean that the the performance it takes more time for Google to sort of lock in on your customer and then replicate results. Uh whereas Facebook maybe could do that right away. You could also mean that in fact your YouTube ads are producing value right away. It's just harder to see. Um, which of those do you mean?

And so why or maybe just to put it more simply, why why do I need to wait three or four weeks or whatever it is for my YouTube performance to get there? Yeah. So I think uh there's there's a couple things at play here. If you're running a conversion focused campaign, so that used to be video action campaigns, now it's demand genen campaigns, but you can do, you know, video only in inside those campaigns. the the algorithm inside that does take a little bit longer than than meta.

And so sometimes you'll you'll you'll see direct conversions in those campaigns. Often you can hit your CPA target or get close, but generally speaking, not in the first one to two weeks. Like it it takes some it takes some time for that to dial in. Now I I do think though there's a component here and we run a lot of viewbased campaigns for omni channel retailers that are selling in Walmart or Target or other stores like we did.

We do this a lot for native. Um I think you can see results pretty quickly there. you're just not going to see it in platform, right? Someone someone sees the ad, they go to Walmart, they see the ad, they go to Amazon, things like that. I think it can work quickly. Uh, but if you're if you're tracking that direct conversion in platform, you want to see that that takes a little bit of time. Is there um uh is there is the the couple weeks of ramp up a function of time or is it a function of dollars?

Like what I mean is let's say I had $100,000 to spend. Would it still take two weeks whether I or could I spend that all in one day? And it's a it's a great it's a great great question. Yeah. So there there's a couple caveats to that. Uh I was working with this this brand. Um can't say the name of it. They were doing like a financial product like a loan based product and we we took it from like zero to 6,000 a day in spend in the first week.

Uh it just happened right like they were they were getting leads like crazy. So, if you've got a proven hook and offer, you've got a lander that you've tested that you know converts cold traffic, you can scale pretty quickly on on YouTube. But, but generally speaking, most of the brands we work with don't fully have that dialed in, right? They've got they've got kind of a metaphor uh content that we're tweaking and trying to modify for YouTube.

So, then then there's a little bit of of learning there uh that we have to do, but also the algorithm has to do. Let's um let's stay on the media buying side for a second then. Uh you just mentioned look alikes as a newer product feature for demand gen specifically. Let's say I am a DTOC only brand. I'm exploring uh early eight figures. I want to add YouTube on top of my already working meta on a pure media buying level.

What do I do? Yeah, it's a great question. So, uh, you know, and and you'll answer this better than me, Andrew, but but it sounds like most most meta brands are scaling with open targeting, right? If you're if you're scaling on on meta, it's open targeting. Lots of creatives. So, if they're listening to my podcast, I hope that's what they're doing. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, so on the YouTube side, what's interesting is we have had a number of brands.

I mentioned a hair care brand a little bit ago, or maybe I didn't, maybe that was on a previous podcast, but, uh, hair care brand, we took from zero to a million dollars in spend in the first 90 days. They were they were cranking. um they mostly scaled with with open targeting towards the end of that 90 days but for the most part we see success with focused targeting in the beginning and my favorite uh the lookike audiences that's newer for demand genen my favorite favorite audience to start with on YouTube is what we used to call custom intent now it's a custom segment but basically you're building an audience of people based on their Google search behavior so I think that's one unique piece that Google has that no other platform form has is they see all of your search behavior.

So you can build an audience of people that have searched for a group of keywords either on Google or on YouTube. You build an audience around that. Um eight times out of 10 that's our top audience to begin with and and sometimes we can iterate on that and expand that make that bigger and scale with that or that trains the algorithm enough to where Google's like aha I see I see the ICP I see the buyer here. Now we can go broad targeting and really scale from there.

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Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And a demand genen campaign, just so we're super clear for with everybody, is going to be a mix of um all placements on YouTube, but it's YouTube only, or is there going to be some display in there, some search in there? Yeah. Yeah. How's that work these days? So, the nice thing about demand genen is you can select. So, if you just kind of default demands demand genen is going to put you in a lot of different places including uh display.

We're seeing the most success with demand gen though by just selecting YouTube. And even more than that, you can subselect under YouTube. So, you can choose in stream only. So, those are kind of the pre-roll midroll video ads. You can choose in feed. So, those are kind of like the what to watch next or they show up in the search results or you can choose shorts. You can choose all of them. You can choose one of them.

Um, and you can really exclude everything else. And so, that that's what I recommend. Um, generally speaking, you don't want to throw display into the mix here. In addition to this, let's let's purely keep this YouTube. And and generally speaking, I want I want to select all of those YouTube formats. If I had to pick one, I would go just instream, but I like to add instream in feed and shorts as well. Um, okay. I have many questions.

Let's stay say stay really media buying though. Um, uh, okay. And then here's another thing. Somebody who's listening to my podcast in particular has um has is hopefully convinced that they should be running manual bids uh on meta ads. I believe there is a um challenge here with uh language and I I've actually only realized this I think recently when I say manual bid what I mean is a target rorowass or target CPA um as opposed to an automated bid or an automatic bid which would be you just give the met you just give meta a budget meta spends all of it.

I think those terms are flipped on Google. I think they absolutely are. It's so funny. I've heard you talk about manual bidding and I'm like but why? Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. It is reverse for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it has confused many conversations. Um Okay. So, um so with let's say I'm launching a demand genen campaign and uh okay, let's make my budget on launch. Let's make it 50 grand a month. Okay, that's what my budget is.

So, a little like almost two grand a day. Okay. And I'm just going to I'm just going to try and spend this. Get as best of as possible. I'm going to set it up the way you just said. Demand genen YouTube only. Uh, and uh, and then I'm going to select all three of the places that you just mentioned, instream, in feed, and shorts. Okay, they're all in there. So, everything is there, but no display. All right, so that's what my budget is.

That's what my spend is. Let's also say that is a $100 AOV. Um, so what would that be at a one to one row? That would be, I think, for the month. Yeah, $100. Right, right. Yeah, sure. Well, whatever. $100 CPA is the most important thing. So, you're getting 500 purchases per month basically at that point. Okay, we can do Let's make it all 600. So, then it's 20 per day. Okay. Um, that's easier. Um, all right. So, that's the setup.

So, uh, $60,000 budget, 600 uh purchases in the month, 20 purchases per day. That's what I'm aiming at. Um, in that setup, how ought I to bid from launch through like continuing? So, you said targeting. You just gave a couple examples of how to target, but how ought I to bid? Yeah. So, there's there's a few ways to look at this. Uh Google's really pushing um value based bidding. So like target rorowaz as more of their their goal.

They're really pushing that. I still prefer target CPA uh bidding for YouTube. It's it's the most stable. It's been around the longest. It's what we've scaled with the most in the past. So there's a comfort level there. Gives you some control, too. So you can move that lever up and down just a little bit. Um there's a couple ways to look at it at that budget. If I knew that this I was on to something with the hook, like the hook had been tested in in Facebook, if the lander has was proven, I may lead with target CPA because it it's the most stable.

It's not going to get out of whack. So, I wouldn't mind to start there, especially if you're spending, you know, what is that $1,500 a day type of thing. Yeah. So, I moved it up. I took us to two grand a day to make the math easier. So, two grand a day. So, two grand a day. Uh, then you're bidding a $100 target CPA. I would start there. Not bad. Not a bad idea at all from launch. So, I'm not I'm not gonna have a problem I'm not gonna have a problem where like Google's going to be like we're not going to spend at all at launch because it can happen.

It can happen. So, but you're you're giving it a lot of room. So, you're giving it $1,500 or $2,000 giving it a pretty big target CPA uh bid, you know, $100 or maybe you start at $120 or something just to give a little bit of room and then you come back down. So, with that, I think it's going to spend I think I think it's going to get some some traction. If you started with a smaller budget and you didn't really know about the ads, then sometimes it's better to start with maximize conversions.

I generally don't like to stay there, but maximize conversions that that kind of goes to what you said you didn't like on on meta, but that's where it's like I'm going to spend this budget if I'm if I'm YouTube, but I'm going to try to get you as many conversions as possible. What that does is that helps the cold start piece where like it just it keep it allows Google to start spending. Um, and and generally speaking, if everything is kind of lined up well, like you you'll get decent conversions, then you transition to target CPA to to scale from there is generally what I like to see.

Um, within that, uh, you can you can transition in a campaign that's already live from max conversions to Okay. Yeah, you can't do that in meta. Um, so I guess maybe you could in a campaign anyway. Um, so okay, that's that's great. Um, and then let's talk a little bit within that about Oh, yes. What about um excluding past customers? Is that uh anything I need to know about that? Yeah, I would definitely do that. There's a couple schools of thought here.

Some people say like, "Hey, leave your customers in there, train the algorithm, and then and then remove it." That's not a bad idea. I I still don't mind to just remove them from the beginning. Like, create some structured audiences based around your, you know, customer search behavior. let that guide the algorithm. Remove customers. I still I still prefer that. So, basically that's just adding a customer match list.

So, your email list, uploading that to to Google, excluding that at the the campaign level, and and now you're set and reaching net new customers. So, um okay, so let's talk about scaling it. So, let's say everything's going well. You're hitting those numbers. I want to come to measurement in a second, but um scaling it first. Let's just assume that your measurement is solid. The money is coming into your bank account at a number that is in line with the CPA you're getting uh on platform, whatever. um uh or you've determined the platform CPA the the way you need to for it all to work right so you're hitting your target and you want to start scaling okay so for for me as a metag guy uh what I would do is very comfortably double the budget and just maintain my manual bid maintain my you know my bid cap or my target rows or whatever where it is so I've got my my CAC target my row target right where it needs to be and I I would have no fear about sort of letting letting it rip.

Um I have found Google buyers to be much more nervous about that. um in general. It's very true. It's very true. Uh tell me tell me how I ought to think about scaling a campaign if if it is hitting my target. Yeah, you know that that's really interesting. So almost all of my seasoned media buyers that work for OMG have the same like conservative mindset. We can scale, but usually we're looking at like, hey, let's let's lift the the budget 15% a day, right?

Or 20% a day. Uh, I generally speaking, if it's a client that's that's willing to test, I like to press down the gas a little bit a little bit harder. The one that I mentioned before, we went from like zero to $6,000 in a day and spend in the first week. That was me. And I knew I knew the client like we were friends and he's like, "Just go. Just go." And so I and so I did. But um, usually what Google's going to do is they're going to quickly it's going to say, "You're out of like you're running out of daily budget.

Here's the recommended budget." And sometimes it's double triple what you're spending right now. I do think it makes sense to spend a little bit below that, right? So may maybe you're at 2,000. It's saying we can spend $5,000 a day. Okay. May maybe bump it to to three or maybe bump it to 2500. See if that holds. But generally speaking, like if if you bump the the budget and you're not messing with the bids, I think you're relatively safe.

Um however, however, uh a as you get to like as an example, I mentioned this hair care brand. For quite a while, we were stuck at like 2500 or four grand a day in spend. We had to to kind of we had to go broad targeting. We had to to narrow down to just a couple of videos. Like there's a few things we had to do to really scale. Um so sometimes if you if you go beyond that 2,000 a day, performance will drop off. But but generally speaking, if you keep the bids the same and you increase the budget, I don't worry about it too much.

I watch it closely uh so that we can move uh back if we need to. But where things really get wonky is if you change the bids and budgets together, that's when things get can get messy, right? So, I go from a $100 target CPA bid to 120 and I raise the budget. I think you're kind of asking for trouble at that point. What if I go from 100 to 90 and I raise the budget? So, uh it does seem that that YouTube is more sensitive to bid changes than to budget changes.

So, uh that could work. Um, you know, but but what I would look at is if you're bidding 100 and you're consistently hitting 120, dropping that down to 90 could work, but it could also just completely kill it and just could shut it down completely. So then you got to go back to the bid. Occasionally we've we've looked at campaigns where we're like, "Okay, we've tinkered with this one a little too much and so let's pause it.

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Then what about loading in creative um for this again? So for for for a meta perspective, the way I would do this, and this is just like always the touch point that I'm thinking about. From a meta perspective, what I would do is is launch as much creative as I wanted in the ad in that uh in the adsets. Um, yeah. Uh, I wouldn't worry too much about it. I'm not I'm I would I would regularly advocate to people that they do not turn off ads manually.

Um, that in unless they're just not spending really at all, then go ahead and turn them off. But I'm not going to I've given Meta a target and said hit this target spend. So, if it's spending it, it like quote unquote believes. I mean, what it really does is it probabilistically forecasts that you're going to hit the target. It doesn't believe anything, so to speak. Um, but I hope not. Maybe maybe soul and it's a soul.

Exactly. Yeah. Right. Um but uh but yeah, if I'm doing the same thing on Google, is there an incentive to just like hammer a ton of creative there, let it all rip and let let Google pick the winners and just let it go, or do we need to be a little more uh methodical about this? Definitely need to be more focused and more methodical. So there then there's there's a few real benefits here. Uh, one benefit is we've seen some ads like for for Moon by Cindy Joseph or kind of in the early days of native where one ad would be the winning ad for like 12 months like it would just keep cranking and keep working.

So, uh, one thing one interesting thing that that Google does here is they pick they pick favorites very quickly. And I don't I can't always tell why they pick that favorite. I think it's based on views and based on engagement. It's not always based on CPA. Um, and so we found better results if we just start with like three to five different creatives. And really inside of an ad group, you don't want more than about five different variations.

Um, you can test a little more than that. So it could be could be five unique ads with like there's a version for uh desktop, so it's the 16 by9. There's a version for shorts, which is a little bit shorter. you know, if if your other video is 90 seconds, the shorts video has to be under a minute and then maybe it's it's more vertical. So, like you can have different versions like that, but generally speaking, like five separate concepts is about all you want inside of an ad group.

Um, and then kind of the same thing with ad groups inside of a campaign. Google will pick favorites pretty quickly and most of your spend is going to go to one or two of those those ad groups. We like to limit the number of ad groups per campaign as well to to usually just, you know, two two to five. somewhere in that in that range. If I'm not hitting my target, I want to start uh or I can't seem to scale anymore and I want to keep scaling.

What do I do? Do I add more creative to those existing ad groups? Do I launch new campaigns? Do I add new creative but in a new ad group? What's what's the sort of how do I stack spend on top of each other? Yeah, it's a really great question. So, there's a few things you're looking at, right? Almost always when you run a campaign, even if it's not hitting goals uh globally or or at the campaign level, you can drill into some specifics that are working.

So maybe there's a combination of this audience and this creative in this placement is working. So let's lean into that more or what can we learn about that? Ah, okay. It's actually this this cut of this creative is working really well on connected TVs. So let's do more of that. So let's let's shift that. So, so generally speaking, you know, if we're looking to grow a campaign, um, if we if we find, okay, there's more, we got more ideas for how to expand like a an audience based on someone's Google search behavior, I may load that in the same campaign.

So, maybe spin up a new ad group or just load that audience to to that existing ad group. But if it's like, okay, I'm I'm learning something here based on the audience and the creative, but I I want to start a I think I should start a whole new campaign. um it's generally easier to start a new campaign if you're if you're going to really change up the the targeting than it is to to layer onto an existing campaign. So um it seems like this is the what I'm hearing in meta.

It's like just a few campaigns, right? But just like thousands of creatives with with YouTube, I would have I would have campaigns that are that are more focused on a specific audience type. So if I'm doing based on search behavior, that's going to all be in kind of one campaign. If I do like a lookalike audience, that's going to be in a campaign. A broad uh targeting, that's going to be in one campaign. So, generally speaking, that's where we've seen the the best results with YouTube.

And those campaigns aren't going to fight with each other. There could be some overlap. Yeah. So, there's there's this interesting phenomenon where it's like sometimes you need to separate out a campaign because something is getting buried inside of a campaign. It's just not seeing the light of day. Maybe that's a budget issue. So, all you need to do is lift the budget and then and then everything does kind of see the light of day.

But maybe it's just that Google's picked a favorite in this campaign, you need to you need to split split it out into its own campaign. Um, but then I think you you've got to watch it if if you've got dozens of campaigns. If they're if they're hyperargeted, there can be some overlap and then and then maybe they they do fight with each other a little bit, but Google's pretty good about about, you know, their their ad rank score.

And so like, hey, what's the most relevant ad based on bid, based on targeting to show this unique user? So, generally speaking, I'm not I'm not concerned if we've got, you know, three to six to to 10 campaigns going. Um, uh, if if we've got some serious budget there. Um, that's really helpful, Brett. a lot of like uh detailed media buying questions to start this off, but I I hope what happens is that people who are listening to are watching this, which which I assume is a more meta um focused uh audience if they if they're listening to my podcast, maybe we'll have some places to start if they want to start trying to work on YouTube ads themselves.

Um probably also, by the way, and and we'll talk more. Go follow Brett um in a couple of different places, including E-commerce Evolution podcast. You're talking about this kind of stuff all the time. So, um, things like that, um, would be a good place to follow up. So, um, anyway, so or, uh, maybe now's a good time to also plug to go to omgcommerce.com and talk to, uh, Brett and his team about doing the work for you.

Absolutely. There's that. Always happy to do a jam session. I post on LinkedIn quite a bit. I did a course with Ezra Firestone on YouTube. So, yeah, we got some content out there. A bunch of stuff there. Yeah. Great. Um, and we'll we'll link a bunch of that in the show notes, of course. Just make sure uh, send me that stuff, Brett, and I'll I'll get it in there. Okay, let's move over to measurement a little bit. Um, so, uh, so I did this podcast with Olivia Corey that made made some rounds.

Great podcast. Great podcast. Yeah. Yeah. I was and and Olivia gets all the credit here and her team, right? Like I basically just asked questions about it, but like but she had this data set showing their their incrementality focused meta analysis of like hundreds of meta of of incrementality tests from YouTube ads to really get a sense of sort of a baseline of how YouTube is performing in incrementality tests relative to what YouTube tells you your performance is on clickbased conversions.

Okay. and her that the highlight right the the headline result here is that your YouTube uh campaigns are probably performing 70% better than what your click-based conversion numbers are showing you in your Google ads dashboard according to incrementality testing. She's got a bunch of reasons for that including that like a lot of YouTube for example is viewed on TV. Like a huge amount of YouTube is viewed on TV. There's literally no way to click that ad.

So you can't do run a clickbased um campaign, you know. So um so there's a bunch of stuff there. Um I you know I won't ask you to comment on sort of those incrementality tests but I'm just curious like today how are you guys thinking about measuring this sort of thing with your clients whether that's a TTOC peer play client or like an omni channel client you know how are you guys thinking about this? Yeah man and that you know as as a longtime YouTube fan that podcast uh was was like it was just the best you know because there there's never been a study of that magnitude about YouTube and actually just to just to reframe that a little bit so it was actually like 3.4x 4x better.

Right. So if you're seeing a one row as in platform, it's more like a 3.42. That's right. 70% less, you know, is kind of a way to kind of way to look at it. Um but but yeah, so there there's a number of things at play here, right? So so this I think this is the biggest hurdle. Creative is a huge hurdle. Measurement is a big hurdle. Uh it's just it takes work to measure YouTube, right? So, uh, one one thing I'll mention there was, so this hair care brand I was talking about before got them to about a million a month in spend.

Uh, we had to pause, uh, for for a couple reasons for a little while. We were also running their Amazon. So, we're full full channel Amazon doing their organic, doing their their paid everything on Amazon. We noticed when we paused YouTube, branded search volume cut in half. So, we stopped YouTube. We're spending a lot. Stopped that. Branded search on YouTube, I mean on Amazon cut in half. We're like, oh, shoot. like you got to, you know, got to pay attention to this.

And so what they came to believe later, and they had a data scientist on their team, they they said for every one DTOC sale we were tracking with YouTube, they felt like they were getting two on Amazon. Now, that's pretty aggressive. That's a lot. Um, but that's what they believed and they they had data to back it up and like, you know, I think based on what Olivia said, that's not that's not far-fetched, right? It's not it's not too hard to believe.

And so there's a few things we're looking at. We're still for the most part running conversion focused campaigns. So we're running demand genen with a target CPA. We're trying to get DTOC conversions. So we're looking at that. But this does work best if it's a multi- channelannel brand. So someone that's on you selling on on Shopify and Amazon and ideally retail stores if you're doing all of those things. So I'll give you an example.

Uh we we did like a a big eightweek push for Arctic coolers. Are you familiar with Arctic, Andrew? Yeah. So Yeti Yeti competitor, wheeled coolers, tumblers, awesome awesome products. So, they they heard me speak at an event in uh at the YouTube LA offices. We connected, did an eight-week push on YouTube. They wanted to see if they could drive sales to Walmart. Like, can can we run YouTube around targeted stores and create Walmart sales lift?

And so, they they did and we did similar to kind of what what uh House does with their incrementality test. We did match market geographic tests. We did 19 test markets, 19 control markets or basically the same size, same sales volume, same demographics, things like that. We ran YouTube in 19 of them. We held out 19 of them. Did a comparison uh with the help of Arctics data scientist team. And so uh but what we also set up there was we we wanted to measure search lift.

So this is a a tool that Google offers. I know Meta does brand lifts. Google does brand lifts. I'm not a huge fan of brand lift. It's like all survey based. I don't know. It's it could be helpful, but I generally don't like it. But search lift, that's scientific and that's specific. So basically what they're doing is they're saying, "Hey, here's a group of people that saw your ad. Here's a group of people that did not see your YouTube ad.

How did that change search behavior? Did they search?" Yeah. And and with with Arctic, we saw like a 231% brand and search lift uh with the YouTube campaign. So that was significant. If you're driving traffic to Walmart, Target, CVS, like one of the big national chains, Google will track instore visits. So, they'll be able to tell you like, "Hey, you ran these campaigns and 7,000 people visited a Walmart store." Now, I love this.

It's It's maybe a little bit creepy. It's also a little bit harder probably to track now. It's just people that opt in or whatever. But, it's not fully telling because if you're tracking like Walmart, what if I was going to Walmart anyway? Like, what if I was just going there to get my groceries? I wasn't maybe going to buy an Arctic cooler. But it at least layers in another another thing. U we do other micro conversions like clicking to get directions to a store, get the number to a store.

So I see this Arctic ad now. I can click here to call a Walmart store nearby. Google can track that. So th those are are really valuable. And then we're looking we're looking at baseline sales. We're trying to understand what are my baseline sales here? What's my growth rate? And am I accelerating beyond that? Because I think that I think that's really what what matters the most, right? is is am I seeing a measurable lift?

And so with with the Arctic study, just to kind of break that down a little bit, we had like three test cells. So 19 markets, but three different kind of groups of markets. One group 12% measurable lift. Uh another group was 15% lift and then the final group was 25% lift, give or take. Maybe it was 23, I don't know. Uh but it was it was a big lift. And what was really interesting, Andrew, is they did a similar test with connected TVs.

Connected TVs. So, it was like I don't remember what platforms it maybe Hulu, Netflix, not really sure. Uh they didn't they did they saw no detectable lift. No detectable lift at all. Uh but with YouTube just crushed it. We got a an agency excellence award uh for that effort. And and so really it's it's like you've you've got to stack some measurement tools together or you've got to work with somebody like House, right?

Uh uh to to really see the impact. But I think for most people it's a matter of okay, I'm tracking D TOC. I know that's not the full story. So let me track Amazon, let me track search lift, uh let me track any kind of uh you know micro conversion intore visits if that's relevant and let me kind of pull that together to get to get a better picture. But then it's also looking at like your tried and true and I know Taylor Holidayiday talks about this a lot.

Calculate my right calculate am is that is that improving over time at scale? It should be and if so you know you're on the right track. Yeah, there's a lot there. That's a great answer. Thank you for that. And first first thank you for correcting me. You're right. I said 70% increase in in when I was talking about that Olivia episode. That's totally wrong. It's definitely not 3.4. Yeah, it's right. It's a 340% increase.

Whatever. Um, so so uh this Yeah, I I had flipped it in my mind that what the decrease was. So yeah, that's that's right. Your your YouTube ads are performing maybe three and a halfx roughly as as well as what you see in the account. That's like a really big number and and I think part of the deal here is this omni channel thing that you're pointing to which which definitely is is part of the question and you you said in the beginning of this that you know um you maybe it was with Arctic or a different brand you were referencing but that that you saw um two sales in omni channel um sort of additional channels relative to one on on DTOC from from YouTube that um is not hard to believe in part because um most retail still happens not on e-commerce right so e-commerce represents 17 17 or 18% of total retail in the US right now secondly um if these other channels were if it was like a one one or or even no sort of additional lift like then you would not go into these other channels because they would be by definition cannibalizing DC which is you know whatever it would just reduce focus so so theoretically this is the whole point of going into omni channel retail which is that It expands your ability to reach more customers where they are and generates incremental sales for your business.

And that's why that's the promise of it, right? With massive amounts of scale and and margin and all those kinds of things. So, um, so yeah, but so I I think I think both those points are really right. And what it frames up for me is this idea that um I think is so important which is that your marketing ultimately matters at the level of the bank account whether that's happening through your TTOC business or through your Amazon business or through um your retail channels.

And what I think a lot of people still get wrong is they get so narrowly focused on measurements that they try to track every sale back to every individual channel when in fact the moment that you create an omni channel business especially especially this is actually even true if you're DDC pure play but uh to to a certain degree you will never track every sale but the moment that you go across other um across other channels is the moment you have to say how do we measure the lift against the whole business and how do we think about this not at the level of some individual um ad that gets clicked on or whatever it is.

Um, and that's that is doubly true in my experience if the offer is basically the same across multiple channels, right? So, if you're running a product where it is basically the same offer two different channels or close um first of all, if you have Amazon alone, people are going to buy on Amazon because it's actually probably cheaper there because you don't have to pay for shipping and it gets there faster. So, right, so just expect that to happen, right?

But in the end, the way you measure this is is is there more money coming into your bank account? And if it is, you're probably moving the basic right way. Right? That's the way that I would think about it. And I actually think people are starting to see that more partly because the incrementality awareness and some of that and they're starting to go like, "Oh, YouTube actually can and does work in ways that I didn't see." And it can happen.

I mean, those Arctic numbers that you just shared are like bananas. Like those are just like huge huge compelling numbers across a lot of things, you know? Yeah. And what's interesting is, and we saw this with with Boom. So, Boom Beauty, Ezra Firestone, longtime friend, longtime client for the longest time, and they they're they were spending way more on Meta than they were on YouTube, but we helped them launch on YouTube, got to the number two source of new customers for a long time, but they were not on Amazon.

And and so they were like doing 20 million a year, something like that. We helped them launch on Amazon. So, we built out their storefront, built out their PDPs, got, you know, product into, you know, uh, fulfillment centers, all that. So, we helped them launch on Amazon. first year they did almost $6 million in sales on Amazon and D TOC did not go backwards. It was crazy. It was crazy. Now, uh since then like some of their growth has been it's we can see a little bit of cannibalization with with Amazon versus DTOC, but it really just showed to your point there are a lot of people that would see those boom ads and think I'll go to Amazon, see if it's there.

It's not there. All right, I'll buy something else, you know, and they and they didn't buy. And so, uh, yeah, it makes it makes every advertising thing you invest in, whether that's Meta or YouTube, works better when you're on those platforms. Um, and and yeah, it's it's one of those things I think people are coming around to it. They're coming around to the idea of incrementality being more important than in platform rorowaz more than MTA.

MTA is flawed, right? Like I've got some friends at MTA tools. Like they can be useful, but they're flawed. like it's just like a third version of of being flawed, right? So, you gota I think you've got to look at at total sales. Um yeah. Yeah, for sure. It's helpful. Let's jump over with the last uh 15 minutes here over to um to creative a little bit. Um so, actually, let me ask one highly specific question about shorts first.

Okay, this will kind of get us into the creative stuff. Um, I've seen some stuff around shorts growing as more viable for DTOC clickable, especially because there's ability to port over your vertical you vertical ads from meta to YouTube shorts. That's been one of the big challenges with going from meta to YouTube in the past is that YouTube is horizontal aspect ratio often on a TV. Um, meta is vertical on a phone. Uh, so shorts maybe solves that a little bit. shorts you can actually it's vertical aspect ratio and so maybe you could take your ads from one to the other.

Is there anything we should know right now about shorts? What do you see there? Yeah, you know what's really interesting is um yeah, you talked about like TV placements and and yeah, it's north of 50% of all YouTube views are on smart TVs. I think Olivia said 65%. That that's higher than what I've seen, but I but I've definitely seen north of 50. Uh my kids, believe it or not, when I let my kids have TV time, several of them choose to watch YouTube on TV.

And a few of them even watch shorts on TV, which is just kind of kind of weird uh to me, but they do. So uh yeah, that is the that is the part of YouTube, the platform inside of YouTube that is most directly uh translates w with your uh social creatives. So Instagram reels, Tik Tok ads, those can translate directly to shop uh to shorts. I have not seen, however, though, Andrew, like something that scales just with shorts.

So, hey, we're we're just gonna run shorts ads. We're gonna go to the moon on YouTube. I've never seen that happen. Um, we've seen like with with native, we did we pulled from their Tik Tok Tik Tok creator content, some of the Instagram reel stuff. It was crushing it for remarketing with YouTube and we used it to to grow with with YouTube spend, but I've never seen it as a standalone work super well. What generally works great is if you can take like the same basic type of content, create a version that is shortsreated, that's more landscape that can go on connected TVs or or tablets or or your phone if you're watching, you know, in landscape mode.

Um, and then something that's that's uh good for instream mobile. So, it's it's kind of two to three versions of essentially the same ad. You put those all in the same ad group together, that works really really well. Okay, that's really helpful. So let's let's then kind of carry on that thought over to the level of creative. You you mentioned this right at the beginning of this um conversation which is the idea that maybe you would need a little more polish.

I've sort of seen mixed things about the relationship between polish maybe people actually think think they need too much polish on YouTube so they shoot too expensive of ads or whatever and they think that's what's going to win. Like give us some guideposts to like how to think about this and maybe maybe let's let's think about that person who's winning on meta and trying to expand to YouTube still. Okay. So that person has an idea of what angles are winning on meta.

They have an idea like conceptually how to frame their brand, what message to say, but they need to think about the next stage. So the first part of the question would be do they do they take that message and then and then basically port it over to YouTube but redress it or do they need to think about maybe a totally different message? Um and then the second question would be whichever the answer is, what about the dressing?

Like how does it need to look more beautiful? Does it can it be a little bit lowfi, high-fi? Like what do we think about that? Yeah, it's it's a really great question. So, I generally like to test with what we believe and what we have data to to back it. What we know works, right? So, this this hook or these five hooks really work. This product demonstration, it works, right? This landing page converts cold traffic. I want to start there with YouTube.

Um, and and I'll give you a couple of examples. So, worked with this automotive brand. and we got them to maybe 3 to 600,000 a month in in YouTube spend for for years, right? Just just cranked along their they're winning ads basically for the whole time was a mashup of UGC couple of influencers as well. Not like well-known influencers, but it was a mashup, but it had edits and text, little bit of music. I don't think that's super important, but it had a little bit of music.

So, uh, I think you run you run into trouble if you take your ad directly from meta and, you know, kind of shoehorn it into to YouTube, that probably won't work, except for on shorts. But if you take those concepts and those winning ads, and you mash them together, maybe you need a little bit of an intro, like a a narration intro, maybe you need an outro with an offer. You probably need to pull in some text, and maybe you need to cut to some B-roll or or that type of thing.

But I would start with those things. I think there's a few things to keep in mind here on meta. You've got the ad, but then you've got that big block of text that you can use however you want above it. And so maybe sometimes the video is the hook, but then the the copy above does more of the closing, right? Um, and then you got a call to action button, all those things. You got to remember on YouTube the video does the whole thing.

It does all of it. So like you you've got to you got to hook them. You got to frame it right. You got to overcome objections. You got to demonstrate the product. You have to create some social proof. You have to then have probably a couple of of offers mentioned there, a couple of times mentioning to go to go check check it out, like visit Walmart or go to the.com or click here or whatever. Um, and then and then a really strong CTA to to to finish it.

And so that's where we've seen the best results is where we pull from the hooks and from the angles and from the product demos that we know works, but we're pulling that together into a narrative. Um, another thing we've seen work really well and this worked really well for a food brand that I that I can't mention but everyone would know it. Um, where we did we call it split screen UGC where basically we took like that vertical UGC content.

So, think about that like as a third of the the landscape. The other twoirds was either product shots with close-ups with a little bit of text or it was like product in action or people surfing or like doing stuff that kind of fit the brand. So now like and it looked pretty good. So this this this worked on tablet, worked on desktop, but worked on TV, right? And so what's interesting is we we took who was their their best influencer and this content was crushing it on Facebook.

We ran it mostly as is with a little bit of tweaks on YouTube, never really worked. We we made it a little bit longer and then we did the split screen UGC and that that shot up to their their number one YouTube video quickly. And so I think that's kind of a clever way to use it. In fact, I just saw I know you know Sean from The Ridge, he's been on my pot a couple times, was just watching TV uh at night and saw it pop up where it's like it was, you know, a third of, you know, action shots and then just the other two/irds was a close-up of Ridge with some text and reviews and stuff like that.

So, that type of setup works really well. Um, I think where people can get into trouble potentially, although this can work as well, is they want to swing for the fences, right? Right? So, it's like, okay, I'm going to pay $40,000, $50,000, $100,000 for my first YouTube ad. I think that's nuts, right? Like, now I will say some of the ads that have scaled the most, so we we partnered with Raindrop. So, shout out to Jacques Spitzer and the the team there.

Legend. Uh, we collaborated on on native for like two or three years together. Some of the best performing native ads ever were their ads. Um, but those are expensive, right? And it's like they they'll do a better job if you come to them saying these are all the creatives that have worked for me, right? So now let's ide ideulate and iterate from this. So I think if you if you want to find something that's like just a viral smash where you can, you know, get hundreds of millions of paid views profitably, you probably need something like that.

You probably need something that's like a native ad from Raindrop or like Squatty Potty, you know, from from the years gone by or PooPourri or something like that. Those are the ones that really really scale. But I wouldn't start there, right? Start there with with your proven hooks, angles, concepts, demos, put that into a format that fits for YouTube and really learn and grow and you you can achieve some nice scale there and then and then go big on production.

I think that idea of combining vertical video with multiple other vertical frames as a way to sort of game the horizontal thing is really clever. I think it's a really clever idea. People should try that and then email me at podcast.com. Yeah. And tell me if as long as like it's it's relatively simple if you have just a good editor. Like you don't want the the two3 side to be just static like you want a little bit of movement there.

But it does not have to be complex. But that's a way to add polish, right? So like that graphically speaking can look good. Then you've got the raw UGC or influencer like that that combo is what we've seen work the best on YouTube especially to start. Yeah. Yeah. Um, okay. One more highly specific question, then I'll give you a little spaces to add anything else you want to add. But this is um sometimes people talk about um the amount of essentially free viewership you get on YouTube videos uh versus meta and also the fact that YouTube is generally watched with sound on which meta may not be.

Um is there anything about that that highly specific element of how YouTube ads are played? I I forget what the number is, right? You don't get charged if it's less than x number of seconds or something like that. So sometimes people will say like your your creative on YouTube can take a little longer to get to the point than it can on meta or something like that. People will say that and I don't know if you think that's true.

I'm not going to put those words in your mouth at all. But I'm just curious like how that um how that works out for advertisers at the creative side. If if they can do something a little bit different whereas meta it's like hook really hard, product really hard right away, do not do a big reveal at the end, people will not watch to get there, you know, that kind of deal. So yeah, any anything about that specific? How much do you get for free and what should you do about that?

Yeah, man. That's a great question. So, let let me talk about the sound on part first. It'll be quick, but I think it's important. So, that's another big deal is is sometimes the ads that work best, the video ads that work best on meta are just like demo with no voice over, just music, like just in case someone turns the sound on, but it's just like it's just you're seeing the action and you're reading the text. Those ads generally don't work well on YouTube.

So, you need a sound. You need a voice over. You need to actually hear what the influencer or the customer is saying. So, it's like 90% of the time people watch YouTube with the sound on, right? So, uh, as they're scrolling the feed, maybe sometimes you see some stuff that's not not sound on, you got to click on it and whatnot, but for the most part, sound is on. So, just adding a voice over, like say you did a mashup of different product demos that work well on meta.

Just adding a voice over to that explaining why the product is great and what's happening, that's going to increase the effectiveness, going to increase watch time, click-through rate, it's going to improve the CPA, all of that. So, that's super important in terms of how much they see for free. If the ad is over 30 seconds, then they have to watch this 30 second mark uh or you don't pay. Uh or if it's like a 15-second, they got to watch the whole 15 seconds or you don't pay.

The the difference there though or the exception there though is if someone clicks on it uh then that counts as well. uh or if they're purchasing, if if they watch like 10 seconds and then Google can track that they purchased, they'll count that as an engage view. That shows up in certain parts of the u of the measurement as well. So, you got to kind of keep that in mind. But, um I still like to hook people pretty hard in in the beginning.

Now, you've got five seconds. So, five seconds that they're kind of forced to watch or they got to, you know, close the whole window if they if they're really mad at you and don't want to watch it. Um, but generally speaking, so that there's like this um this kind of news uh story arc that we talk a lot about and and YouTube has got some some content on this, but it's kind of like if you think about a movie trailer, good movie trailers often start with like explosion, action, guns firing, backs up, tells a little bit of the story, another high point, more action, backs up a little bit more, tells the story, and then it's like, you know, leaves you hanging or whatever to make you want to go watch the movie.

Um, what does not work, I believe, in in any context right now is like this slow buildup to the story arc. So, start slow. We're telling a story. Someone's in their kitchen and they're having a nice cup of coffee and then and then and then it builds up to a climax and it comes back down. That generally doesn't work. So, I like to hook high. Now, we have seen some things like like my buddy uh Ryan Mackenzie at True Earth uh laundry detergent strips.

They had this ad and we we were in their YouTube help them launch on YouTube and stuff. They had this ad that uh uh guy name Joseph Wilkinson uh created, but at the beginning it was like what what do you not mix with water? And it was like electronics and people were dumping water on a computer and witches and like the witches melting or whatever. So and then it was like and laundry detergent. And so it was like what what do you mean by that?

And then then went into the the pitch of why the why would you use this little laundry detergent strip instead of a big jug of of laundry detergent? And so it still created a little bit of mystery like why are we seeing someone dump water on electronics? why is there a witch melting? Things like that, but we're still starting pretty high and then we're backing up and telling the story. And so I still prefer that. Um, you know, different people have different philosophies like, hey, show the brand in the first 5 seconds.

That way if they skip, they still get the brand impression. I think that's okay, but I don't really get hung up on that. I I'm much more concerned about I want to hook the right people with something that that's related to the product in those five seconds and then I want to get them to to keep, you know, to keep watching. But um yeah, you know, one thing we're seeing with with some creatives, like we saw this with some Arctic creatives where on um on connected TVs, we were seeing view rates of like 80%. 85%.

So 85% of people and we had millions of views. Like 85% of people choosing not to skip. Kind of crazy. Uh generally speaking, you know, 20 to 50% like that's pretty good. Uh but these were like 80 uh which is nuts. So you you get the right creative, people people will consume it. And then you're talking about low CPMs. Like I think for Arctic we were getting like under $4 CPMs, you know, like it's just it's just it's just nuts.

Uh when you do it the right way. Yeah, that's that's quite an outcome. Brett, where should people follow up with you if they want to work with you or learn more from you or what's the best best place to go next? Absolutely. So omgcommerce.com uh get connected to the podcast there. Got some free resources. have kind of like this 11 uh checklist of how to get started on on YouTube which is a valuable resource and I can give you the direct link to that too Andrew to check that out.

I do post on LinkedIn so so check me out there and then feel free to email me brettomcommerce.com and would love to connect and talk shop. Cool. All right, man. Thanks so much for your time. This was really helpful. Awesome. Thanks, Andrew. Fantastic conversation with Brett as far as I'm concerned. I tried as much as possible to make my questions really tactical so that you could take this, learn from it, implement the things that he is talking about doing, especially as I as I uh said in the intro, if you have had meta ad success, how do you take that and port it over into YouTube?

Brett really knows his stuff as you can tell from that. So, go check out more of his content. We mentioned it there at the end where you can go do that. There's also links in the show notes for all those things. I'd also love to hear from you. Podcastjfgrowth.com is the place you can email me, reach out to me on xandrewjer. I would love to also have you sign up for my newsletter at ajfgrowth.com uh where you can put your email address in the popup or the footer there.

Both of those will get you my newsletter as well as my four free essential e-commerce resources which will be a help to you. Uh thanks so much for watching and listening. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you're doing those things and to follow up with my sponsors. Workspace 6. Workspace 6.io is the place to do that. And my friends at Morstaffing, more staffing.co. Both uh folks that I'm really happy to recommend to you.

Really happy to have as sponsors on the show. So, uh, thanks so much for watching, for listening. All kinds of great episodes coming up. You do not want to miss them. So, make sure you subscribe and I'll talk to you next time. [Music]