Lessons From Living Inside China’s Supply Chain For 5 Years transcript

Sean Agatep and his business partners moved to China for 5 years right out of college. They all moved together and lived in a manufacturing section of China, learned that world inside and out, and brought that knowledge into Vincero, an eight-figure men's accessories brand that continues to grow steadily and profitably over time. This is not the story of mega super fast hyper growth. It is the story instead of people living a really good quality life, spitting out cash for themselves and for their families, continuing to grow their businesses steadily, and then taking those learnings and instead of pushing one business really, really hard to try to get it to nine figures, thinking about how to reinvest that into additional opportunities, creating a hold co, and and creating what they think is the best way to build a large business.

On this episode, expect to learn about how 5 years living in China has affected the manufacturing approach and the knowledge of how manufacturing actually works for e-commerce products. Expect to learn about why you ought to be thinking about opportunity selection each and every day in your life, not just before you start a business, and what it is that is driving people to build a really good business without having to go scale it to the moon.

This is a great conversation with Sean Agatep from Vincero. Let's going to do it. Sean, thank you so much for taking the time to join us. I appreciate it a lot. I have so many questions for you. I have formally been a hold co CEO. You've got a hold co. You've got a men's accessories brand in a similar range of businesses that I'm working on, so there's a lot here. I I Thanks for your time, man. Yeah, I appreciate you having me.

I I don't think they let us ops guys out in public too often, so it's it's it's Let's see what happens. Yeah, I mean, I guess if you want to uh turn this off and give me your CEO, then, you know, we can get we can get rid of um Okay, so so uh So, tell people a little about Vincero to start. I think we'll probably spend some time there. Really cool brand, men's accessories brand selling watches, etc. Give people the overview of what the brand is so they have some context to this conversation.

For sure. Yeah, men uh Vincero is a men's accessories brand. Uh we make watches, eyewear, and jewelry with a focus on creating gifts for life's sentimental moments. So, with Vincero, we spent a lot of time on, you know, in a way perfecting the gifting experience for men our age. One of the problems that we ran into >> What's our age? Are we Are you younger than me and you're assuming that we're the same age? What's our age?

Our age is less than 50. Okay, great. I'm in there. Okay. Uh uh less than 50, older than 30. Okay. So, I'll I'll throw it in Let's throw it in there. Uh Yeah, great. Yeah. So, Okay, so, yeah. Give me your experience for millennial men. Yeah, I got it. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. And um when did you start it? We started in 2014. We actually started it off on Kickstarter. Um so, we were one of those brands that kind of read rode the the Facebook train early on and been carrying it ever since.

Cool. Um So, I mean, maybe let's start by just by just sort of breaking down what has led you to success. Like, when I hear it started in 2014, uh it you know, uh eight-figure brand in 2025, um you know, that that doesn't sound like mega super explosive growth, but then when I talk to you, it also sounds like that's partly on purpose that you're That's not really your goal. Your goal isn't to go And maybe it was at some point, but can you talk about like sort of your approach to growth at Vincero and what you um have thought about in that pathway so far uh before we get to So, what you think is next?

Uh sort of how have you guys approached growth in the business? For sure. I think when you first start and you're seeing product market fit and you're getting a lot of tailwinds and you're running and you're getting a lot of momentum, it's very exciting. You're doubling year over year over year. It's There's a lot There's a lot happening. There's a lot of movement. For us in our situation and the race that we were running, um we came out of COVID.

We opened up stores in New York and LA. Um found ourselves a little bit over our skis cuz a couple months later iOS 14 hit. And we kind of had a opportunity evaluation or a reassessment of what we actually wanted Vincero to be, whether we wanted to continue to massively scale it and double down on growth and everything else like that, or if we wanted to get it to a point where it was operationally stable, it was profitable year over year, it had consistent growth, and that's the that's the route that we decided to take it.

And And so, now, are you guys Well, actually, before we do that, have you Do you think I mean, you said you're early Facebook. Have there been any sort of key central things that you think have been critical to your guys's ability to get to eight figures, profitable, all those kinds of things at this point? What are the What have been the the the the core stakes in that? I mean, you mentioned the product experience, nailing a gifting experience for men, and maybe it's as simple as that, but um but what has What has been What has worked for you guys along that way?

Yeah, I I think credit to my partners who are not on the call now. They're uh they're great at marketing, they're great at branding, they're great at uh defining the opportunities that we should be pursuing from a channel and acquisition standpoint, and being disciplined on the numbers and everything that makes sense. Um so, we're 90% digital marketing. Like, we don't have a big wholesale presence. We don't have a big uh we don't have a uh brick-and-mortar retail presence.

Um we we focus on what we're good at and what we're consistent with. And then we just kind of continue to double down on what's working. It is a beautiful brand. You gave your You gave your your partners some credit there for marketing and things like that. It's like it's like extremely well Like, it's just it's very attractive. It feels premium. It's It's like it's really well done. Um Do you um Yeah, yeah. Um So, you you I know part of your story, and I don't know how this dovetails with the founding of Vincero, but part of your story was that you lived in China for 5 years.

And um And so, can you tell people a little bit about that and how that dovetails with with the beginning of it. And then I want to get into some of the nitty-gritty of how that experience led you guys to think about manufacturing, which I think is an interesting question. >> For sure. For sure. So, our origin story is a bit unique. Um I graduated in 2010. Um lived in a house with, you know, your best friends from college deciding what was next, what's next on the journey.

Where did you go to school? Gonzaga. Gonzaga University up in Spokane, Gonzaga's. Yeah. Yeah, Gonzaga's. We uh we were kind of debating what's next, you know, from a business major standpoint, the economy wasn't great. Uh so, we did the next logical thing and we moved out to Guangzhou, China. And uh we all moved out together, and we had a great experience of just We basically caught the entrepreneurial bug once we got out there.

We got jobs teaching English on the weekends and then just tried to figure out how a business worked and how to how to be adults during the week. You were able to uh figure out how to be an adult during the week during those days? We're still trying to figure it out. I mean, um yeah, it's it's it's an ongoing journey. It's It's like product development, it's never finished. Yeah, yeah. You're as I mean, you're an entrepreneur, so maybe not.

Um is um Okay, and so so, like when you went there, was it purposefully to like learn the world of manufacturing? Was it like what like what was the point of going to China for for that half? >> So, a couple of us had talked about like, "Listen, there's a lot going on in China. We got to keep our heads open. There our our eyes out. Like, there's got There's something out there. Maybe we can try to start something." Um and we were fortunate to where we moved uh was Guangzhou, which is like the third largest city in China.

At the time, it was only 15 million people, and no one moves there for the sightseeing or anything. You're there to for the manufacturing and the product development and everything else like that. That's where the Canton Fair is, obviously. So, um we got it We just jumped headfirst into product development and sourcing of manufacturing, learning how that worked, and being able to be on the ground there. You know, when you're trying to make something or you're making something for someone else and they say, "Hey, there's going to be a delay for 3 weeks." Instead of just getting that email or get that call, it's like, "Okay, I'll be there this afternoon and we can talk through what's actually happening.

What's wrong with the product?" So, you get to learn a whole lot more about the nuances of how the supply chain works and what's actually going on because the business culture in China Yes doesn't mean yes, no doesn't mean no. So, understanding those nuances and understanding like the relationships behind how that all works was instrumental to how we were able to to scale up Vincero. Let's Let's uh let's camp out there for a minute.

Um I I'm really interested to hear I think that's a unique experience to be in that, to be able to speak about cultural distinctions and and And really, I mean, like business culture specifically. Do you um How How did Tell Just give a little more detail on it on the interaction between you guys's being in China and the founding of Vincero. So, like, was it that you guys saw an opportunity to make watches or something and started making them?

Like, how did those two things come together? Yeah, essentially, that was it. We were we were in a position where we understood sourcing, we understood product development, and we knew how to make products. Um At the time, Kickstarter started blowing up with all these brands that were spinning everything up. And we were sitting in a position where we're like, "Okay, it's Kick Kickstarter's the best testing platform for your marketing messaging and trying to be able to like fund production, right?" Our unique advantage is we actually know how to make the product that people are saying that they can make.

So, let's use our product expertise and our experience to build a brand of products that we think are cool, that we're passionate about, that we care about. And that So, that started with watches with the idea of like, "Yeah, let's just make cool stuff that we what that we like, that we wish we had, that were at at the time reasonable and attainable prices. Yeah. Um And And so, what is it when you say you know how to make product and you you've been in that culture, what does that mean?

Uh like, what are the things What are the key insights that you got, or what are the key things that you have understood there that And maybe especially if you think there's stuff that from your experience there that you think most people who are manufacturing in China, but who haven't lived there, don't understand? Uh like, are Are there Are there like Yeah, just just talk a little bit more about what that is. What What is the substance of the observation you're making there?

For sure. So, for Vincero specifically, let's say our hero product with watches. I think the biggest thing the biggest learning and the biggest underlying thing is that there's not just one supplier. Even if you're only talking with one supplier who's making one part or one component, there's layers and levels to this, right? So, even if I'm talking with my factory that makes the watch dial, they actually only probably do the assembly.

They don't do the actual printing behind it. They don't do the other components. They don't provide all of the materials. So, like when you get down that wormhole and you're able to understand all of the different layers and you're under able to understand how all that interconnectedness works, you just get a better understanding of how the products that you're selling are actually built and how and and the ways that they are built to where you can not only improve on them, but iterate on their designs and it and just make them better.

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This is what e-commerce uh SaaS is meant to be, stuff like RichPanel. So, go to richpanel.com, check it out today, tell them I sent you. So, have you guys done that along the way? Have you like sort of you started with a watch that somebody put together and then you started picking apart different suppliers to your suppliers and stuff like that? Like what How has that actually played out in Vincero? So, now Vincero sits on a web of like 38 or 39 different suppliers that we have relationships with at one point in time, right?

Like that's and it's for us to start to do that again would be very challenging and very difficult, but being able to be out there and being able to like, okay, well, on Tuesday, I'm just going to crank out a visit to these three factories that are an hour away from me and I'll I'll be able to build the infrastructure in the almost like the backup plan for this current person we're working with. We can pre like preemptively support that.

So, how in in when it comes down to brass tacks in the way that the P&L looks as a result of this or even the cash flow in your business works as a result of this, um has that led to anything like um an advantage around something like unit cost or MOQs or, you know, uh uh cash movement in the business in terms of um lead times, uh you know, terms like as you with the under you just said you have 38 or 39 manufacturers.

The place my mind goes there is that's potentially a lot of places to go save money or whatever. It's complicated, but it also is the thing. I had Roman Khan on a long time ago. I don't know if you know Roman, but yeah, brilliant dude. And you know, he talks about having like 50 full-time people across his hold co right who in China just like basically working with manufacturers all the time. And his big thing in terms of in terms of how this all works out to creating a business that spits out a ton of cash, which, you know, he has more scale than everybody.

So, so so he's going to have some advantages in those relationships, but um but you know, he he has talked about how just like essentially getting a bill of materials from a manufacturer and then just interrogating it line by line endlessly has been the pathway to him generating an incredible cash flow in e-commerce machine. For sure. Um so, I'm curious if you have seen any specific like financial outcomes or advantages in your supply chain that have come out of that level of detail with 38 or 39 suppliers?

For sure. Um I think the first the first layer of it is you understand the the lead times for different compo- components and different parts. So, specifically with watch manufacturing, once you understand like how long these different parts take, you're able to order those components ahead of time, so which provides you more flexibility in how you're actually ordering and planning and managing that stuff out. Then the other thing that you're constantly doing is for all of our main products or all of our main things that we work on, we have an A, B, and C supplier that we're constantly negotiating, letting them negotiate against each other for the business for every single PO that we place with the idea that you're also going to need someone on the back end to where it's like, okay, if this B supplier drops off, I need also need someone that I can slot in here.

So, when I'm saying 38 38 suppliers, it's like realistically, we're probably only working with 20 to 23, but we've got a skew that we're we're cooking up in the background to where if something happens, you have that preventative maintenance and that infrastructure to move forward with it. Yeah, so you have a ton of flexibility and a basically a bunch of redundancy built into the supply chain. When I when I think about So, I I have a theory and I've said this a lot of times, but I my theory is that supply chain is the most under-optimized part of e-commerce that like basically most D2C founders uh just have massive low-hanging fruit gains to be had in that part of the business.

And I uh and part of the reason I think that's cuz I've cuz of conversations like the one we're having right now where I hear people who are good at this talk about it and I'm like, oh, I've I've talked to people who have built pretty good-sized businesses who have never heard say anything like what you just said ever. Like they've shopped five manufacturers ever, you know? Like it's like um and and so that's that's super interesting.

And yeah, what you're what you're describing sounds to me like your advantage is more in stability of your supply chain than in sort of like super low cost or something like that. Although also you're talking about people negotiating each other so that it drives the cost down. Right. So, I I think the well, there's two parts of it. I for a brand our size even now, I think we're a little overkill on our supply chain performance, right?

Because and it's because of our DNA of the product, being able to have that lineage, right? Of being out being back there. Um but I also think that from a from like a performance perspective, you don't really you don't necessarily need to be have that many suppliers, right? Uh but if you want to continue to create good, solid products and kind of even go up market, you need to be able to compare what some one supplier is saying versus what two or three others are saying.

And the the truth of what that's actually what that cost actually is is somewhere in the middle there, right? So, when you're making a new product and you try to iterate on a new design, let's say we thought we have this movement and we're getting a price from this watch movement, we compare that against three or four or five other people. All those prices, not one of them are going to be the same price, right? But like you're able to kind of like delineate the truth within there.

Um it is interesting what you're saying, too, about sort of being able to go up market. How much of your supply chain complexity is a necessity of watches? Like I like like in fact, you also sell necklaces. Like do you have anything like that level of Uh watches are hard, man. Watches are >> Yeah, right. That's That's That's what I'm wondering is like if part of it is that you But that actually creates an advantage, right?

Because it like if there's a higher barrier to entry, but you guys know what that barrier to entry is and can navigate the supply chain complexities, then it allows you to sort of have you know, it's just going to be harder for somebody else to make a $500 watch if you guys are selling, you know. You guys aren't You guys aren't in the insane premium luxury space in watches, but four or five hundred bucks is a lot of money out of it for a watch. >> Yes.

Yes. Yes. So, you think a lot of that is because specifically you've chosen a complex product. Yeah, watches itself is is inherently complex. I mean, even if you're looking at I'm looking at a photo of a watch right now. Like the glass is different than the the hands is coming from someone else, the movement is coming from someone else, the pieces on the dial are coming from someone else. And this is just for like a little tiny thing, right?

Um so, it yeah, it's it's it the product itself is complex, which demands expertise in the complexity. Um if you're selling t-shirts, it's easier to focus on maybe the materials and then just go wider in your supply chain just focus exclusively on cost. Yeah, how do you how do you guys uh how is the how does this look different for eyewear versus necklaces versus watches? Like are there any distinctions in the way you guys approach those products supply chain wise?

It's almost like it's a maturity in our understanding of what the business is at the time when we launched that product category, if that makes sense, right? So, we knew the intricacies and everything of watches. We started with watches. That's where our expertise is going to be. Eyewear is a secondary category for us. We're a little bit We're not as focused on fine-tuning all of the exact specifications or requirements and everything from eyewear because the demand isn't quite there yet.

From a jewelry perspective, we're focused more on the intricacies of the designs and the the detail in the the specific designs. That's where you're getting a lot of value and uniqueness of that product category. Um so it really kind of and that's happened that's laddered up as the business has grown and wider in product categories. Like we you can you can't be an expert in every single every every every single product category.

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Okay, so let's maybe let's start to move the conversation towards something you and I were talking about a little bit that I think is really interesting which is you got you've decided that um that and I'll let you articulate how you want to articulate this but you've you've expressed that you've decided that you guys are not trying to grow Vincero to be the biggest company in the world really fast, you know. It sounds like you have a sense that Vincero has sort of a natural size that it works really well at and that pushing it much past that is um is not the best use of your time.

So can you let's why don't you explain that thesis a little bit and how that's affecting what you guys what you and your partners are doing day to day and the decisions you're making and then and then I'm going to interrogate it a little and so I'll and then you you you tell me why it's uh yeah, I think you're on to something but I'm I'm curious to kick it around with you. Yeah, so I think it comes down to where the life cycle of the company is, right?

When we were scaling rapidly, of course you're going to pursue growth at all costs and you're going to keep going. The problem with that is that ultimately the winds are going to shift shift and you don't know the tailwinds were behind you until they're in front of you. And so we we decided that like we got Vincero to this point. To get to the point of like let's say we want let's say we wanted to double Vincero. That effort and that time and that energy spent doubling Vincero versus like what if we just focus on let's get 20 to 30% growth year over year for Vincero.

Like can we just be operationally excellent and just leverage and squeeze out and continued growth in the lineage of the company. It's still a fun brand. Like we like making the products. We stand behind the products. You know, we're passionate about like the what we're actually doing and instead of taking that energy of trying to force that boulder uphill for like doubling growth let's take that energy into what we're good at which is building which is starting things from the beginning and then and then just building them up and then being okay with them being smaller. 20 to 30% year over year growth is still meaningful.

So it's not like you're like abandoning growth for Vincero as you described that. Yeah. >> No, it's it's more of like our willingness to take big shots is not that that appetite isn't as big as it was in the past years, right? We don't feel an urgency to try to continue to grow for growth's sake. Mhm. Um okay. So I can see a few different approaches to that then. Um one of them is Well, actually I'm going to ask you about something you just said.

Uh why not? Why don't you feel that same urgency? Because that's the that's the benefit of running your own race, right? That's the benefit of like deciding what you actually care about, right? Like we I think for my uh for Tim, Aaron and I, we get more satisfaction out of the the building and identifying opportunities, figuring out solutions, building solutions for that and like that that part of the process than scaling and managing and like that that risk appetite of like going after that.

So if we like if we gravitate towards that stuff anyway, then why not just build a life around what you like doing and what you're good at as opposed to like jumping into the void and the unknown. I mean I that's I don't know which way is right or wrong. It's just that's the race that we feel like we want to be running. So interesting. So so many of these decisions come down to like not really a I mean it's it sounds like you're being strategic.

I don't want to undersell the being strategic from a business perspective but you're also expressing that very much in a life desires and goals. And it sounds like you're you and your partners are are pretty aligned on this. Like you guys have similar vision which is a really big deal when you're working with partners. And dude, we're very fortunate like I mean I've known them since freshman year of college. They're still we're still all best friends.

Like we all have young kids around the same age. So we're all in that same point in life anyway to where it's like listen, we're not really going anywhere anyway, right? Like there's there's no like we just want to be able to build. We we want the path of least resistance to the life that we want to be able to live and we already have this entity in Vincero. Let's keep it stable. Let's keep it profitable. Let's keep it growing at a reasonable level where that stability provides peace of mind that we can do other things as well.

Yeah, and and there is a thing there's a real thing here when you're you have young kids. Like I have a 5-year-old and a 3-year-old. When you have young kids um it's just not the time in life to be going pedal to the metal. Correct. Correct. Correct. Correct. >> Um Uh so um Okay, so one way I could imagine you guys doing this. When I look at Vincero, one way I could imagine you guys doing this and thinking about it sort of like taking a business to its more natural limits or its natural growth rate or whatever is is actually something I see in the business already which is launching new products within the same brand because like there is actually only a small relationship between sunglasses and watches, you know.

They're completely different supply chain wise, I'm sure. Like I bet you have almost no shared manufacturers between those two products if any. Maybe packaging or something. I just yep, exactly. Um so yeah, but but otherwise like so it's it's functionally another business unit. Like now obviously probably there's probably I'm guessing some customers who love their watch and so then they like you release sunglasses and they buy them but but I bet that's not a huge list uh is my guess is that.

Tell me if I'm wrong by the way. This is just my guess. >> it's 100% right and that that was that our thesis was like oh well, let's just spin up eyewear because our watch customer will buy eyewear. It's a completely different purchase decision. It's a completely different customer. Like you have to treat them differently. Yeah, gift versus buying for myself in some ways too, I'm sure. So okay. So in some ways sunglasses reflects to me like that's a big market.

Um you know, it's still mega dominated by Luxottica. Like it's like is is that a way to think about what you're saying which is like basically keep the one brand but instead of spinning up additional companies cuz you told me you also have a staffing agency and you have another something that you've sort of uh told me that you're about to buy product for, you know, but place POs for um which we haven't even talked about.

So um So why not sort of keep building it all into Vincero and sort of add products or whatever? Is there a sort of natural limit there or Yes, when it comes to the branding and the messaging of that product category specifically. So when we when we went wide with product and we went from watches to jewelry to eyewear, we also got into carry. We couldn't really justify making carry work and eyewear is sort of on that fringe as well of like to really give it juice and we really wanted to like push it hard, it should probably be its own brand, right?

It should probably have its own identity. The way that you're presenting watches and jewelry is a natural like there's a there's a complement there. Eyewear is a little bit different. Um so with that then it's like okay, well, we don't really want to spin it off into its own complete entity. We can just keep it from a natural perspective and like just grow it with what makes sense with our existing customer base and we're fine with that growth cuz it's just contributing to that profit.

Yeah. That makes sense. I I yeah. So it's almost like the brand name doesn't work against the category like but it's not necessarily helping it and so you might as well at that point maybe just give it its own brand etc. >> Right. Right. And there's seasonality to it too, right? Like with watches and jewelry, 40% of our sales happen over the holidays. Eyewear, everyone's buying in April, you know, April to July. Then if you don't sell any sunglasses by July, you're stuck with them.

And then if you think about from the op side, if you think about the ordering cycle on those, that doubles your cash constraints and what you can effectively like move, right? Because you're ordering all of that stuff, 40% or 50% of sales for eyewear is happening at the same time you're placing the orders for all of the the holiday stuff that makes it very challenging. Yeah. Do you think people sort of over fetishize the super big business, the the crazy growth story deal?

Like is that is that part of your perspective on this? Like Cuz I think part of the thing there's like a FOMO in in the space. >> Yes, I understand. I understand. >> podcast and the nine-figure brands and like, you know, and listen, like those guys are great and have done amazing things. They're all like I I have some level of relationship with basically all of them. Like they're they're all kind people building great things.

So it's not it's not at all to say anything negative about them. But like I that is the story that gets told. And even when you hear Shawn Frank talk about this, like he's like, you shouldn't try to build a nine-figure brand, you know. Uh Right. So like what's uh like like you're you're taking a different perspective, which is like steady growth, I don't need to build the huge thing. And I do think it's good for um public D2C content like this podcast >> Right. >> to uh to say Right. success.

Like you have you have great relationships with your business partners, you're still best friends with them, you have a wife and small children, uh and you are living a life that you want and you have profitable business. That's that's success, you know, it doesn't have to be So I don't know. Do What's your perspective on the way people think about the stories that get told here and and um I mean, you know, I don't know if you if you and your partners have wrestled with that at all or if it's just been sort of obvious to you this is what you want to do.

But but yeah. Well, I mean, let's see how many people are still listening to this at this point in time cuz we don't have like a hyper growth story. So it's like, ah, I just like it's it's a one-for-one, it's not as interesting, right? Like it it's almost like it's too practical cuz it's like, okay, yeah, but I don't like I don't really want to be entertained by that. That's Also, I think that when you're at a certain stage in life that ambitious, that growth, and all of that stuff, if that's not inherent to your personality, you start to it starts to kind of wane on you, right?

And it's like, I don't actually don't really like this volatility. I don't like this stuff with the unknown. I kind of know what I want in life. I kind of know what I like in life. Let me just like why am I driving this ship this direction if I don't necessarily have to? Yeah. Um yeah. Yeah. Well, I I mean, you say like maybe people will drop off because of that. It's still like possible. And I've had plenty of I've had plenty of people on who have crazy growth stories, you know.

But I um and I I I like talking to those people. I think there's things to learn from them. >> Oh, yes. They're inspiring. Yeah. inspiring, right? It's like, oh, cool, that's a good idea. How can how but how can I apply that to my situation is where I think people like drop off. I had a fascinating conversation once with an entrepreneur from I don't remember if it was Denmark or the Netherlands, but somewhere in that part of Europe.

And um and she was at a at an e-commerce conference in the US. And she was I was asking her about her brand and everything like you do and something like that. And she's like, I love coming to the US for stuff like this cuz you all work so hard. And and and she's like, you you you know, like I learn all this stuff about what to do in my business and then I go home and work way less hard than everybody else and I'm I'm really happy with it being at the size that it's at, you know.

And I remember I told her I was like I was like, well, yeah, but then but then uh her name was Sefra. I said, "Sefra, how are you ever going to have a private jet?" And I was joking, obviously, right? Yeah. >> And she was like, yeah, but I don't want a private jet because then I would be an amateur. That's funny. And I was like that's pretty funny. Like there's like a there's like a real sense of like life goals. Like she was plenty successful.

She lived a life that she wanted. And I think I just think there's I I actually like hearing that story a lot. And like I'm not to sneeze at what you guys have done. It's actually Every time I hear the story of an eight-figure e-commerce brand, I'm like, I am well aware that that is the result, the fruit of a lot of hard decisions and blood, sweat, and tears along the way. That did That was not easy at every step. At some point you over over inventory and you're out of cash and you're figuring out what to do.

At some point you under ordered it and you're all scrambling cuz you had a great Whatever, you know, like so um yeah, it's just it's just it's just uh to like increase that over time, that's great. But like the expectation is we're not going to hockey stick this year, right? If we can hockey stick, totally down. I'm not going to be like I'm not going to like dismiss it. But the our understanding of the business and and where we sit sit within the market to hockey stick that would take significant capital, resources, and time, which we're not devoting, so we shouldn't expect that to happen.

I like that a lot. So instead you're putting more of those kinds of resources into starting another business. Correct. Correct. Correct. Um can you say anything about it? Uh it's okay if you can't, but can you say anything about the business? Um so it's going to be called Captain Buck. I don't want to dive in too much into it because it's my partner's baby and it I don't want to Yeah. ruin how how we're saying it. Uh but it's it's we're everything we've learned from Vinsero, and I think this is where we're a little bit different from the holdings company perspective, is we are building businesses that like Vinsero isn't.

Right? So Vinsero is a cash heavy like it's it's almost like what we dislike about Vinsero. It's like, okay, let's make another business that's like not that, right? And let's have let's just use our ability to build like build and scale those things as opposed to be like, well, we sell watches, so let's just spin up another watch brand. It's like, well, no, I want something that's like a different profile. Yeah. CPG or something probably.

Uh yeah, right. When I hear the name Captain Buck, I assume like men's CPG is what it sounds like. Um which is which is great. Um so yeah, I think we're in a similar stage. I'm starting a men's CPG brand, so I get it. Um is um uh you know, there's there's the notion of opportunity selection that I think is is a really important idea. Just that like at any given point like applying the same amount of leverage to a better opportunity uh creates a better outcome.

And and what I hear you saying is that you could apply a whole bunch of leverage to Vinsero and try and grow it. Or you can apply that same amount of leverage to Captain Buck or to Title or whatever else you're doing, you know. And and actually that would create a larger outcome. And I think when people think about the notion of opportunity selection, they think about it before starting a business. What they sort of don't do is think about it every day, always, you know, like ongoing, you know, like uh they like just the idea that today there's an opportunity selection thing where it's like, okay, I I I um how can I apply that?

But it's it has such an outsized thing. Everybody who's ever started a supplement brand knows this, which is like they're I my supplement clients are working almost exactly as hard if not not as hard as some other brands of mine. And they are going to be a bigger and better brand, at least as things stand today, because it's a better opportunity. And you know, for a number of reasons I don't want to start a supplement brand, but like it makes sense that you would say like just opportunity selection is kind of the critical thing.

Um so so when I when I hear you work good decision, that's what I hear. It's like this consistent reassessment of what's the best opportunity. And for you, that means, okay, now we have a hold co. Now we don't just have Vinsero, we have a hold co because we think there's a couple of other opportunities here to do that. Is that Is that an accurate way to describe how you're thinking about it? Yeah, and to use a more like tangible example, I mentioned that we don't have the big wholesale footprint, right?

We we haven't been able to crack that door. I think it doesn't mean that I don't think we can, but I think it's probably a three-to-five-year play and it's going to take a significant amount of time. One of us is going to have to do that. We're going to have to hire someone who actually knows that. We're going to have to put a whole lot of money into that. And it's like, okay, well, how much energy and effort could I do for less money to get to then just get something up to seven figures, right?

Like wouldn't that be a better use of my time because I know and I have control over how to do that? And so wouldn't we just apply that expertise and those resources to that versus jump into the void of like something completely different, right? Within Vinsero still, but it's like it's not within our skill set. Yeah. Are you concerned at all about the energy suck? Like is there a possibility that's going to make your Vinsero growth go down to 5% or something like that because you're putting that much time and effort into something else?

No, because I I really like the the way we've structured in that we're each sort of like champion a project, right? And so from we almost got to the point where especially after like six, seven years, it was like, okay, the three of us know how Vinsero works, we know how to run it, we know what's going on with it. It's almost like all three of us are overqualified to still be working on just this, right? It's like, why don't we just take why don't we just move Shawn to Title and have him run and spin that up?

My partner uh my partner Tim, he's really championing like Captain Buck side of it in the branding cuz he's very good He's like he's a genius with the branding and everything like that. And it's like it's almost invigorating cuz then we're we're essentially our own board making the decision, but like we each have our own projects that's contributing to the pot. Uh how are you guys handling the equity splits on each of these?

Is it Is it uh is there any difference in equity relative to each project for you guys? No, cuz they're all in different they're all in different stages. So we split that the the equity is going to be split equally like proportionally I don't know. It's way easier to to do this with your best friends that you've known since forever cuz like you can have those transparent conversations about comp and what we what we want to live on and so we we engineered this of like okay, what what number do we want to live on?

What do we want to get there? What makes sense with what we want to do? How do we structure that to what like feels fair and equal across all this other thing? all across these things. But I mean even specifically, are you guys all equally do you have equal amounts of equity in each of the three organizations? Yeah, okay, got it. So you're not at this point. Yeah, that makes sense. I could imagine that creating a challenge at some point if you end up putting spending all your time on one thing or whatever but but you know, who knows?

Uh it's it's it's a sneaky it's a sneaky hard thing about hold codes in my view is that like the cap table it as things expand can change especially if like the thing I'm working on over here is just a worse opportunity and everybody knows let's say Captain Buck runs circles around Vincerò. Well, it's like okay. So you know, anyway, but and and anyway, I think I think the equal equity is probably the right way to do it.

But Well, and it's like Vincerò's mature. It's stable. It we know what it is but also like from an op ex perspective. We also know what's healthy for it to run out. Right? So it's like okay, we got to make that work. We got to make that fit if one of us is jumping to Captain Buck or one of us is jumping to Title. One we're freeing up space on the op ex on that perspective. Right? But that doesn't mean that they're not entitled to the the dividends and the profits from that entity anyway.

And if they're spinning if we're spinning all that up, um it's just a more for me it's like an invigorating and it's a fun position to be in because like we've got we've got our own projects. You know, you're back in that building phase. So you know, if you were feeling stagnant within Vincerò especially from the op side. Right? Like that's just a grind. Um plug people in that can do it and execute on it and then you know, just work on the other stuff. >> Yeah.

Uh do you um do you guys have goals for like an exit at some point or you or is that just not even on your radar? I think if you run a business with the idea of an exit, it's makes it very challenging to expect a result because you're expecting something that is already very rare and there's so many outside forces that are outside of your control. So our idea is that like let's just build these things profitably that we're spinning out of enough cash that we're content.

We're happy and then ultimately if you're running these things profitable and stable and you want to flip one of them. You've got the track record to be able to do it and let's say that like let's say we were over Vincerò. We have we have the stability for it and you're not going to have that hockey stick hyper growth exit. But also I mean no one's having that outside of CPG right now anyway. Right? So it's like you might as well just run it lean and profitable.

Take as much as you can year over year and then if you want to flip one of them, it's already it's a viable entity. But you're not sacrificing profit for top line revenue and then if nothing if an exit doesn't happen, what like what do you do? >> Yeah. I think you said something really wise right there which is just that like the percentage chances of an exit are actually very low. Uh I Taylor Holiday talked about this with the transaction they had with Com Thread Collective that like essentially that the the the chance to uh to grow or to to have an exit was something like the chances of becoming a major leaguer as a in terms of all baseball players as a kid which is to say extremely low.

Like it's it's really really hard to get there. And I think what you're saying is like an is a really grounded approach to the math involved here which is like yeah, so so don't so don't bet on that. Right? Like if why would you why would you place that as your bet? You know? Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's it's funny. It's very similar to the thing like like we're talking about with like the nine figure business or whatever where I actually love celebrating the exit stories because I think there's something about that that feels like a win for the whole community when somebody has an exit.

Like the D the D2C community I think is really like for each other as a general rule people are rooting for each other. And so when you know, build Alex Andrews sold Natural Dog Co. It's like yes, like it happened for like you know, like and and it's like way to go. You know, people know Bill's worked hard at it or whatever and or Taylor and CTC. You know, Taylor's contributed a ton to the D2C community and and all this and so uh so I think there's a there's a real sense of camaraderie around those kinds of things.

But it's almost like it's almost like because it is so rare. It's it's that it's it's really hard to do and and and so it's like a really cool thing for that person and and it's fun to celebrate when it happens. But it's not the thing that you should build for. You know, um I good. All right, I have one last hold co question for you which is do you are you doing anything tricky with shared services across P&Ls or any or you know, bringing P&Ls together anything like that?

Sometimes that is people's assessment of how you also run a hold co or you have a lot of shared services. Other times people look at it and say like no, we actually all I mean by hold co is that we all owned equal parts of basically totally separate entities. You know, um and so I'm curious which approach you guys are taking. Yeah, so definitely shared services again because there can be so much transparency with your best friends forever.

It's a whole lot easier to do it. But also that's why from the staffing agency agency perspective. That's why we started it first because we were going to need the people anyway. So we might as well build something up that can spin off cash already and then build the people into the infrastructure and have that capacity to be able to to do that. And then our head of product is awesome. She's done a good job of taking my job away from me which I'm stoked on because like if she wasn't if she she wasn't as good as she is, we wouldn't be able to do all this stuff.

She's also been able to lead the charge and helped Tim with Captain Buck and the product development and everything. So it's it's all going to be within the same family. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah, it'll be interesting to see you know, how as those grow if they demand more of each individual's time. The the the the shared service around title makes a lot of sense to me just that it's like they're just going to use that. Do are they like getting discounted costs on sourcing or anything like that or are you making them pay full price to title? >> No, I mean it's it's just Tim, Aaron and I that are writing the checks anyway.

So it's like well now if you need someone like that. There you go. Right? Like that's that's just all it is. Yeah, as long as you guys then it's then it probably makes sense. At some point if other people become compensated in it then it like I mean we experienced this with like you know, when I when I was running 4x400 a hold co connected to Com Thread Collective. We started by having 4x400 use CTC's services except that I was just like it was like oh, we'll have discounted cost of service for for digital advertising.

Except that like I was the worst client because I was like extremely demanding and had a whole bunch of knowledge in the area and also I was paying the least. So it was just like I just like the CTC teams hated working with me even though it was supposed to be but but that's because there were a lot more people involved. Um At a certain size and scale I think hold codes become challenging and I think our expectation is that like we're not going to be that big anyway cuz our number to get to from a from a cash perspective isn't really that high.

So it's like we can be flexible. We don't need to over complicate it. Um you know, it's a good problem to have if it does get that complicated and if that becomes the case then we'll just spin it off. Have you talked to Kelsey Merrick at 365 Holdings at all? No, I haven't. He'd he'd be a good good chat with you. He's been on my show a couple times. It was mark I'm going to try actually I'm going to try and have him on really soon.

He has a crazy story about something that happened to his business that hopefully never happens to anybody but like financial fraud and stuff. Anyway, but yeah, but but I think they've come out on the other side of it which is good. Anyway, um Uh yeah, they they they're a little further down the line in terms of size than you guys are. But they're doing hold co really well I think and and very similar thing. So all right Sean, any last stuff that like people need to this like something that you're burning on that you think is just like a critical insight along the way that you think would really help people or anything very top of mind for you in your observation of D2C right now?

No, I not really. I don't really have any wise words. Right? I'm the I'm the I'm the sarcastic guy that that cracks jokes in the meetings and you know, kind of keeps our head down and we stay out of the marketing's way. So nothing that nothing that I don't want to step on anyone's toes here. Okay, great. All right, well, thanks for your time. I appreciate it. It was a great conversation. For sure. Sounds good. Thanks so much for watching and listening to the show today.

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Go to the show notes, follow the links. You know what to do. I'll talk to you next time. >> Oh.