Ju Rhyu Had A $630MM Exit. Is She Happy Now? transcript

[Music] J Ryu has had one of the biggest outcomes in the space of any of the brands that I am aware of in October of 2022 Jew's brand that she was the co-founder and CEO of and now maintains a advisory relationship too as she'll talk about in this episode Jew's brand sold for $630 million an incredible massive exit and she graciously has taken the time to come on the show today to talk about what made hero Cosmetics work what made hero Cosmetics reach that kind of outcome and then what is life like after the exit which is one of the most interesting uh topics to me in all of e-commerce right now and and in sort of entrepreneur land in which we live so hello and welcome to the Andrew Ferris podcast thanks for joining me for an interview episode with J Ryu let's not waste any time let's Dive Right In and get to my conversation with the co-founder and former CEO of hero Cosmetics J ru je thanks so much for joining me on the interferes podcast I appreciate it so much when the conversation started on Twitter and there was like any possible rumbling of the idea that you would come and talk to me about some of these things I was like yes please please jump in let's do it so thanks for scheduling time across the world with me you're in Paris I'm in La so thanks for making it happen well I'm glad we finally got to make this happen I know we're trying to schedule for a little bit but yeah happy happy to join and thanks for having me yeah all right here's the way I want to do this just so people know kind of where we're going I would like to start by talking about hero and the journey and the and the the sort of success that you guys had and and all those things and presumbly are still having I know you're still working with hero and and all those things but but really sort of think about sort of some of those elements of the story so maybe we can start and then after that after that I want to talk about life after the exit so let's start with the journey for hero where did you guys begin how did you start out what's the core product for hero for people who don't know and then and then when did you sort of start to see resonance and success after you are the founder I know you're the co-founder so you can maybe pepper that part the journey into who you found with all that stuff yes so for people who don't know hero Cosmetics we're an acne care brand and we're best known for our Mighty patch hydrocolloid acne patches we started in 2017 and that was a product that we started with the the mighty patches and that's what we're still best known for and I mean that product really came out because I am someone that always you know just even from when I was young to well to being a doll I always had the tendency to break out unfortunately and I was living in Soul South Korea they're very ahead in terms of beauty trends and adoption and back in 2012 they were already people in Korea they were already using this patch format on their on their skin so I asked them what what it was for I was told that it was for acne and I tried it for myself and just was amazed at how much better it worked than anything I had used before and then I started wondering okay why am I learning about this now why is it not more available in the US I was starting to see already some demand and some requests in the US and I could tell that people you know were wanting this type of product so then I was like someone needs to create it I'll create it I have two co-founders we launched in 2017 and we launched in Amazon which no one really did back then and now we have a whole Suite of products we have a whole acne regimen so we always say like any type of pimple problem you have we have a solution for it uh awesome is Amazon is an interesting place to launch in that story for me because you know what you just described as sort of like category creation at least in the US the idea that there wasn't really a patch solution for this and I think of Amazon as being an especially good place to launch if there's already existing demand and so maybe there was right maybe there was sort of Search terms around acne concerns yeah so I I'm interested for you to talk a little bit more about why you made that decision if that was strategic or if you just kind of you know the ear days of founding a business it might have not might might have been lucky like I don't you know what what was the logic of that yeah it was sort of all those things I mean back then you didn't really start businesses on Amazon like I remember being told by a PNG executive like don't sell on Amazon and I think this is sort of like one of the benefits of being an outsider like you don't know that there are rules or playbooks that you're supposed to follow but for us it was a really logical and practical decision because there were there was already I don't know maybe like one or two acne patch products that were from Korea being sold on Amazon and I knew the demand was already there we were bootstrapping so it was honestly was a channel that was fastest easiest and cheapest to launch because literally within minutes you know you put up your photos you have you write your copy and you're you're up and running rather than with DDC you have to hire maybe like an engineer to make your site look nice and a designer and all that stuff so so it was kind of a practice iCal decision but it it turned out to be a really smart one for us because we were really profitable on that channel for a while even still today and so it really helped us fund other activities of the business in the early years yeah awesome and so okay so you guys were bootstrapped and and then raise some money eventually right uh I think in terms of that so can you talk me through that what was the decision to raise because it sounds like you're profitable from from early on from what you just described and then eventually decided to raise so can you talk through the sort of thinking there because actually one of the Striking things about your story is just how big the exit is relative to a lot of the stories in the sort of D Toc you know online consumer good space e-commerce space and I'm wondering how much you know raising had to do with that that's to me the best argument for raising at some point is to in to increase the size of the potential outcome to get the big outcome right right so yeah so I'm curious to hear you talk about sort of how that decision came about and where the business is at when you made that decision yeah so yeah we were profitable from the very beginning from year one I mean it was really important to me because I didn't I was like this company needs to stand on its own two feet do not want I do not want this company to be a money pit where you know you use money to solve problems when you don't really have true product Market fit so so that was a core sort of approach or value from the very beginning and with the fund raise I mean we were in a position where we didn't need the money so we weren't raising money for the money we were actually raising because we wanted Partners who could help us scale and get to that next level myself and my two co-founders we were very clear that at some point we wanted to sell the company and so so we so it was always sort of like in the back of my mind like do we raise yes or no and if we do when is the right time and we ra we started the process in 2020 early 2020s right before covid actually and the first term sheets were due the week of lockdowns which was very crazy um crazy but but then but yeah I think at that time we knew this business was growing really quickly and so so more than the money we knew it was the time to bring on some people who you know had been through the process and knew how to scale companies and knew how to get to an exit yeah super interesting that so the people were as valuable to you as the money in some way maybe maybe that's a false equivalence but but that the people were a big part of it yeah did those did those folks end up being as helpful as you had hoped yeah I mean they helped recruit they helped a lot with strategy when we were selling the company like they were invaluable invaluable because I mean I'm not a finance person there's a lot of Finance stuff that happens when you sell a company and they knew how to you know best position the company and you know the key things to negotiate for and like we ended up sort of changing law firms for this deal and so they you know they just knew right that's that's the kind of detail if you've never done this you just have no yeah that's that's so helpful that's so helpful to have that kind of person to help you think about law firms or whatever because yeah that I mean that is a perfect example of where like experience in relationship just has so much value because yeah that's that's a big deal transaction deze that you guys had so yeah that's awesome that's super interesting what what about by the time you got to an exit tell me why you think hero is successful like what you know I mean we just we just covered a lot of years past you know and all this stuff but like at the core for somebody listening to this why was hero able to achieve the level of outcome that it was like I want to get into all the tactics and all those things but I there's only so much time to cover these things but like what is what is the core driver for you of what made are really good and you can really take that question wherever you want Financial answer marketing answer product answer you know whatever you think yeah I mean it's it's such a good question because yeah sometimes I ask myself like you know if I were to replicate this again like what did we do right and H you know how can I do it again if I wanted to so I think one you know in Beauty and skincare there's there's not often a lot of true Innovation a lot of times it's like another moisturizer or it's more like the story story but with a patch format I mean we yeah we are a category Creator we created this category it did not really exist in the US and it was in a really good category too uh because it was in acne which is you know very much a problem solution type of topic because when you have when you break out like you are desperate to do anything to get rid of your your pimple and so that category hadn't really seen any innovation in a really long time a lot of the brands were owned by big cpgs that just you know they're very underinvested and didn't have a lot of attention so I think right category true Innovation and then and the way that we built the company was really different and made us stand out because when we started in 2017 I mean that was really sort of the the DDC era right just like growth at all cost and doesn't matter if you're not profitable just keep raising and I think because we did things very differently and really focused on building a a a profitable business that helped a lot because obviously now the narrative has shifted and so we were in a good position to to be able to tell a really good Financial story too that and then I think we focused uh we I think we did really well by having a lot of focus because when uh we exited when we went through that process we were probably 40% Amazon 45% Target and then the remaining was D Toc and other channels so so I mean you know we did a lot with just focusing on two really big channels and and then the story was you know hey buyers you can take us to Walmart you can take us to CVS you can take us all over the world and that was very appealing yeah so there was still some some uh some untapped upside for somebody on top of the on top of the evida you already producing and and the growth you're already producing there's still still room in front of you that makes a lot of sense yeah when you when you say you focused on those uh two channels especially what do you what do you mean and what I mean is like what were the kinds of things that you're doing in those days to like maximize uh actually I think both those are really interesting channels uh Amazon on the one hand is its own beast and then you know big box retail like Target is its own Beast as well like what what are the core things that you're were doing to sort of really focus on and maximize those channels when you think about that idea of focus I always say we're sort of like DDC but we did ddcl all backwards so we started on Amazon and we focused all our marketing on that one channel because we didn't really have other channels to support so we didn't even have a DDC site we had a landing page that went to Amazon yeah like our social we pointed it to Amazon all their press we pointed it to Amazon um we're starting to build an email list we would Point them to Amazon and so uh I think all that effort really helped us in the beginning to to just drive all our resources to that one channel which you you know with Amazon if you know Amazon it's like the more you sell the higher your rank the higher rank the more you sell it's sort of like that Snowball Effect yeah so that was really critical and then with Target we had a two-year exclusivity with them so we were doing well we had an exclusivity with them and similarly like you know that exclusivity allowed us to just focus on that one retailer and that one partner that means they were investing in us we were investing in them and then we were able to really create this amazing business together and you know we said no to all sorts of retailers because we knew it was just take you know more time and resources away from Target and and you know that worked really well for us yeah and there's plenty of white space and Target there's a lot of targets with a lot of customers who probably need acne care like that's like it makes sense this is like always the back and forth between like increase your demand capture with more channels versus focus on doing an incredible job in a few places and I I think it's a very hard decision because there's there's probably times when it actually does make sense to keep expanding your demand capture into more places and and all that and there's probably times when it makes more sense to focus but I just am contining to see from a lot of folks how much wisdom there is in this ability to focus like your Amazon story is wild to me because when I think through what would have to happen to send your email list and your landing page and all those things to Amazon it's sort of it's it's such a black box that it would also be but I'm assuming like the major measurement you're getting of your success there it's just sales like you just have to sort of trust that as long as the sales are coming because Amazon I mean maybe maybe at your guys' scale Amazon is giving you more information than they give most people but it just strikes me that that would be hard and yet what you're saying also makes a lot of sense to me which is I mean as you were saying it I was I was thinking that thought along with you which is that the Amazon flywheel really spins itself a lot faster if you once you start selling like sales create more sales and and so it actually makes a ton of sense to me as a specific Amazon strategy to sort of over like to really drive your marketing towards that channel and just trust that what that will end up producing for you is a bunch of additional organic value and I'm sure in your case with your product a bunch of LTV as well people are going to buy on Amazon and then Rey on Amazon and all that kind of stuff as well so yeah it makes lot of sense it's It's Tricky too because you you consciously have to like prioritize one channel over another so there was this one founder she had a sizable DDC site she was launching she wanted to I think pivot to retail so she was launching at Target so she had this great quote was something like sometimes you have to kill your baby to save your spouse or something like that where she was basically consciously prioritizing the retail relationship over her DDC because I think she knew that launching at Target like you know National yes and so I mean that's that that's the decision that we made early on we decided to prioritize Amazon over our own DDC and you know there are a lot of like naysayers like oh you don't own the customer you don't have the data etc etc but but they're always trade-offs and so sometimes you just you just have to choose one over the other yeah and I mean that's probably true to some degree except that like I think one of the situations in which early D Toc theories are most shifted in today's D Toc world is the sort of own the customer thesis like that's something that that like there are some Brands and I don't know I mean hero is is hero pretty high LTV yeah we are yeah I would I would think people would be coming back uh repeatedly and some of those things um that would maybe make some sense for for D Toc specifically but it's only the only Brands where I really think that that logic really holds is when you have extreme High LTV where it's like like if you can do subscription or something like that where you can maintain the ability to kind of keep that customer for the longer term although even there I bet you LTV I I I don't have any great data to back this up I bet LTV is better on Amazon than than even d2c including in subscription just because Amazon's the best shopping experience in the world it's just so easy and so awesome for customers it's so easy yeah yeah and so like I mean I've got my subscribe and save cart and I've got the same stuff I've had for forever there and it's I probably have higher LTV on a lot of those products than I do on my D Toc products that I you know you know all those kinds of things so it makes a lot of sense okay I I could go down this the road with you for a very long time and maybe that's a future podcast but that's a good like overview of kind of where things are at you end up with this exit uh maybe maybe quickly who acquired you uh I've read it but maybe you could talk about that and and how that relationship worked out you could say a little bit about what you're up to now I know that you were the CEO of hero and you're still on uh with hero but maybe in a different capacity so who who acquired you and what are you up to now and all those kinds of things and then from there we'll shift over and talk about your your postexit experience yeah so the choir is church and DWI they are a us-based uh multi-brand conglomerate uh publicly traded company they have Brands like nare and batist uh they have the they acquired the breath a year before us um and they have like waterpick and trean condoms they have like a whole portfolio of Brands uh so yeah we sold in October 2022 and now I'm in more of like a I guess advisory role so I used to be be the founder CEO um but I'm kind of less operational they really run the business now I just help like really telling the the Brand Story the founder story I've been helping them with International because we've been launching in other markets helping with culture and making sure the integration is going really well yeah makes makes perfect sense and honestly sounds really fun it sounds like sounds like you get to still be involved with something that you created in love and and probably have a lot of does become your baby and at the same time yeah and at the same time you don't have to be the CEO which is a really hard job so yeah okay so let's talk about it so you exited in October which is just a little over a year ago now because we record this at the end of November in 2023 so talk to me about that so what were your because this is the thing that got the conversation started I'm really curious to hear you tell this story as sort of honestly as possible there's a lot of ways this narrative is like supposed to go in a lot of different directions there's the on the one hand there's the we had an exit it was amazing everything was awesome and look at how great we did narrative on the other hand there's the uh oh money doesn't make you happy and and you know there sort of that narrative you know and people tell both so I'm just curious to hear like what first of all what was your expectation of what it would feel like where where were you at like when I talked to Patrick kadu about this and I'll link his episode in the podcast you and I were chatting about that a little bit before you know Patrick talked a lot about about how much after he exited he realized just how burnt out he actually was and that like he had driven so hard to get to that moment that by the time he got to that he realized gosh I don't know how much moreal I could have made it until afterwards I he realized that so were you in that place or were you feeling good I mean you know give me give me some sense of where you're at and what your expectations were for the exit yeah I mean I wasn't burnt out I definitely know Founders who are I could have continued I could have you know probably I probably had another few years in me uh to keep going so for us we you know we were growing really fast and would hit this sort of Revenue threshold and the macro environment back then was also sort of like the clouds were darkening so we knew this was sort of the moment but what did I expect I expected us to you know kind of like I thought we were amazing like you know because every founder thinks their their business is like the best right so like we have this amazing brand and we're so profitable and we have an amazing team and look at the you know all the crazy things that we're doing and accomplishing so I was like this exit the sale process like you know like it's no problem like we're we're going to it's a slam dunk like it's definitely going to happen so so definitely I think I went in probably overly confident but yeah there were a lot of ups and downs to the process for sure with just macro environment and and and you know the way that the buyers think they really prob at your business in a very different way but I have to say like when we ended up selling and the the Press announcement went out I have like I will say it was probably one of the best days of my life oh I'm sure that's awesome yeah I felt like I won the Super Bowl um and it was just it was amazing because it it felt like it was a win obviously not just for us and the team but like almost for the any like cpg like founder or brand out there because there were a lot of people like cheering us on and maybe it sort of like a symbolic win for everybody um but that was pretty that was surprising and really awesome I think that's right I think that in the sort of dtoc Land Community you know like I like to be honest like I was sort of vaguely aware of you know hero being a good business and then the win happened and and you know kind of made the rounds and I was like Wow awesome way to go this person I don't even know you know there's some some sense in which I think with entrepreneurs like this especially people who are not like you know you think of sort of like your venture-backed software company that's just like a different Universe than most of the DDC you know kind of world lives in or the Ecom World lives in you know you guys raise your series a but like you said you were bootstrapped at first three years just such a different founding story than that and I think every the whole reason I love working with entrepreneurs actually is because like I want so much for that person who took the risk stepped out did a really hard thing from the ground up built this thing often starting in their living room shipping stuff out of their you know whatever all those things and I don't know exactly the Contours of your story but like but like all those things happen and it's just like you want to get to that win the Super Bowl moment together and clink glasses and just be like man you did it I mean that's a really hard thing to do and like you said about the sale process like I've been through a lot of sale process H not a lot but a few um none of them of the size and scope that you're talking about or anything like that but the thing I have come to learn about them with total Clarity is that they are never done until they're done until that until the Inc is signed and the money hits your bank account until the money is in your bank yes that's right it's not done there are all kinds of ways for it to go wrong and and so like deals that you're like certain are going to happen end up falling apart and so yeah so it's just anyway that there's so much steps so many steps to get there that's really awesome so um okay so you have the Super Bowl you win the Super Bowl moment you have all of that happen then what what happened after that for you what was your experience like after that uh how long did that feeling last for gosh how I mean it lasted for a while I mean I told I told everybody I'm going to celebrate for as long as like people will let me celebrate so so we announced I think the announced went out right after Labor Day like September then we closed and you know I had I hosted something for like a bunch of my friends and took my family on a vacation so that was fun then I went to Mexico great great and just live that was awesome yeah yeah I got house and of course like one of those like once in a lifetimes for to you know 100% great yeah um and then yeah I mean eventually it sort of like all that it does fade away and then you you have a different you're kind of you're living sort of a yeah you have it's a new chapter I guess you're living a different type of life it's funny because you know I've been sort of yeah observing kind of how life is now compared to like what it was like before and um what I realize is that when you become rich it's much easier to become richer like just because you get invited you get invited to a lot of opportunities that you would not have access to as a quote unquote normal person so like these are things I you know I never had access to before but now suddenly like people know you had a successful exit and you're be you know you're you're sort of like in a way part of this exclusive Club that's probably one of the biggest differences I've seen super interesting uh investment opportunities that kind of stuff like yeah like in investment opportunities um you know like people approach you about uh starting new businesses together like you get access to LP opportunities or you know private offerings to secondaries of like companies that you never really knew you could you know you could have access to and and so like the biggest thing for me is like you what I realized is you inevitably have to learn to be your own capital allocator and so I'm not a finance person um so that's like a skill that I'm trying to learn right now because you have your own money so you have to figure out like how what kind of Investments you want to make and how you going to allocate how how you going to allocate everything because you just a lot of times like you don't have there's just so many opportunities you can't say yes to everything so you have to kind of have your own thesis or Philosophy for how you do all that so it's been a big sort of learning for me how long did it take before those opportunities started coming through I mean was there was it a week was it three months was it yeah I mean I think because our deal was so public it was pretty pretty immediate yeah like they just all sorts of people start knocking on your door like the you know the wealth managers and like different bankers and all that stuff yeah yeah have you how have you tried how have you sorted through that cuz I imagine there's also some danger there right that's that's a lot of people coming to you especially if you're you know self- professed not primarily a finance person you know what's what have been The Helpful tools for you at least so far and and sort of beginning to think about that it's actually still relatively early but I'm curious where you're at so far with that thing so someone gave me really good advice they they said you should just do nothing for the first 6 to 12 months just say no just say no or just say you know you're you're not ready you're think you're going to think about it because yeah because right after the exit like you're in such a period of euphoria and and that INE inevitably calms down and goes away and so and I'm I took that advice and I'm glad I did because I've talked to other Founders who I think they were like oh I made so many mistakes I think they were too maybe optimistic and they like wrote texts into things that they now regret or whatnot and so I just I said no to everything you know there were like board opportunities you know advisor opportunities investment opportunities I said I just was like no not right now so just wanted to let the death settle see you know see the integration through and kind of see how I felt in six to 12 months and so now is sort of when I'm starting to pick my head back up and really trying to think through everything but but I think you know for anyone that goes through something similar like just give yourself time there's no need to like immediately do something you know right away like those opportunities will still be there even month later yeah if you're scaling an e-commerce business you know how important it is to get your supply chain dialed or you should know and if you don't know it might be because you do not realize how much efficiency there is in your business left to be built by having a great supply chain Logistics Inventory management inventory forecasting setup and system and that starts with getting good experienced help and there is a solution to get that help without paying an arm and a leg that solution is more fractional supply chain more fractional supply chain is a uh part of more Staffing the 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not doing that right go get access to the incredible knowledge that is available to you in more fractional supply chain they will do all kinds of great work for your company if you you need to staff up your supply chain Inventory management inventory forecasting sides of your business and again you probably do if your e-commerce business is growing go look into doing that in a cost-effective and Incredibly powerful way with my friends at more fractional supply chain use the code AJF 20 at more now.co that's aj20 more now.co and of course the link is in the show notes to get 20% off your first three months go check it out now let's talk about it at the level of sort of personal experience in terms of maybe start with work uh now your role changes you go from CEO which is a hard job but has its own kind of the difficulty of it is fulfilling in its own way as well like do you miss that at all yeah I mean things are different for sure and like I already went through this sort of like emotional separation process which I think is important because I heard that there's um yeah I heard a lot of Founders go through a kind of founder depression because because for you know you you work so hard at something and you're involved in a lot of the details and all the decision- making and then you sell to someone else and you know suddenly you're probably not in charge anymore you don't have the final say and you know I think PE some people they get really unhappy because they just they cling and they they want it to be like how it was but I I think internally I was just like you know what I know you know church and white they paid a lot of money for this company this is their company now I'm here just you know to support them to make sure this brand is continues to be successful under their ownership and so I think I realized I I have to play a different role and yeah so there's a little bit of like that internal kind of emotional breaking up that you have to do to be able to like feel comfortable playing that role yeah make that makes sense I think the idea of sort of like making an active step committing to the idea that you are going to change that role makes sense otherwise I'm sure it's very hard I'm sure it's very easy rather to slip into CEO mode this was your thing you know what to you know whatever and you probably have to you know give some intentionality to the idea of making a shift like that I think uh that makes sense what about personally sort of the the money hits and all those things um did you feel like the you said you know the Euphoria lasted for a little while what about after the Euphoria do you feel like it delivered at the sort of level of human fulfillment and joy and sort of anything you're willing to say about that side of things I'm curious about about your experience with with uh you know such a life-changing moment like that yes so who was it someone asked me if I was happy actually I founder um they were they were like you know you had an amazing outcome but are you happy because she knew other Founders who had gone through exits and they were not happy just because again I think clarify right so you think they were Le they were not only not happy but less happy is that the idea they were less happy than when they were yeah interesting yeah yeah yeah um and it's yeah it's sort of sometimes you find yourself a little bit purposeless because you like just gave everything you had to this one thing and all of a sudden you don't have that to work on anymore um but I told her I'm I'm happy I'm still happy so great that's great I I why do you think that is I mean it you know I think you have to have purpose like Beyond just work also um so having hobbies and because some people like all they do is like that one thing and then when you don't have it anymore you yeah you find yourself very like purpose purposeless um but I think if you have a well-rounded life and um you know you have your friends and your community and your family and other hobbies that you're really interested in like that helps fill that void uh so I think I think that's like one aspect of it and I I think that separation process that I went through um also helped because now you know that's sort of a process and then I'm I'm starting to think about like the next chapter what does that look like and how can I you know like what am I what am I going to do next um which for me is exciting I think for some people it can be kind of scary but um I'm excited I think it'll be fun yeah uh when you when you talk about you know Community Hobbies uh purpose besides work a more well-rounded life are there some things that you can share for you that hit that check those boxes for you what what are some of those things in your life that you think have led you to be able to sort of go through the moment and remain happy in that respect yeah I'm very close with my family I think also I built a really amazing community in the founder community so like they you know maybe they started out as colleagues but now they're friends and and it's fun just to sort of like kind of continue to ideate with them and you know they approach me about like certain ideas so so in that sense I'm still engaged I'm not you know I'm not working on anything like 100% yet but it's like as sort of like some of the hero work has reduced because now I'm playing a new role all these new opportunities come up and they sort of help fill that I guess void so that's been really fun and you know it's like allowed me to do things like work out like I heard this like online coach and I started working out three times a week which I never really had time for before and I started like thinking a lot more about my health and you know I'm reading these books on like longevity and then you you're reading petera yes yeah awesome finishing that yeah of course yeah and then we're moving so the the house project was sort of like another project that took a lot of time so so those are you know those are like things that um that were fun projects and and fun things for me to work on that that sort of yeah kind of helped fill that hero void I guess yeah yeah yeah it makes sense it sounds like uh there's there's uh things to work on still I you know sometimes I think people have a vision of the thing you get when you have an outcome like you had is um ease that's the that's sort of like what the money buys them right that and there's of course a truth to that right like you you don't have to worry about money now like you you'd have to make some really big mistakes to lose the amount of money you've made um and and while I'm sure those stories happen I bet they're pretty rare just uh just because it would have to you'd have to really make some big mistakes but so what people are looking for in general in that respect you know the money has I think sure provided you ease you don't have to you don't have to go like fight for your next meal or whatever it is and that's that's a real outcome right but I think what some people are imagining is like life on the beach you know the sort of idea that you do that and that's what'll make you happy vacation forever that kind of mentality but I I just really believe that it's and this is just this something I believes anyway but then from talking to a lot of folks across you know who have made a lot of money whether it's with an exit or or something else and then also just u a broad range of experiences it it just seems like work in some way way uh is it's is a very human thing and and produces a kind of fulfillment and pleasure that is really really hard to mimic elsewhere so vacations are great but they're vacations the idea is that you're getting away and resting um and that actually like ease or or you're getting away and celebrating maybe you know like like you talked about with your trip to Mexico there's a sort of specific purpose for that in relation to your broader life which is not that you like you want to live on vacation forever although I'm sure some people do that and have a great time or whatever but that there's actually purpose provided in the work itself and so what you're describing is interesting to me right that you okay you you you change your role of hero you actively disengage and intentionally disengage from your previous role of hero and you replace that with okay we're going to move we're going to work on what our house is going to be like there's a bunch of decisions to make there there's a bunch of ways in which I'm going to set that up for myself it's a it's a it's a purpose to to chase I'm gonna work out I'm gonna think about longevity I'm gonna go and take on new um purposes and those kinds of things I think maintaining some sense of that it's just I I you know when I've heard the uh founder has a big exit and gets less happy story it's almost always because because they have all of that stuff is gone and they can't figure out a way to replace it even if they even if they do workout or whatever that it's not meeting that need for them yeah I mean you know what it's it's it's not exactly like you know boom you have this exit that chapter is over and then you're me like some people do I guess like you know you immediately have something else like for me it's it's a process it's going to be a process I mean the number one question everyone ask me is like what are you going to do now what are you going to do next and honestly I'm just like I don't know and I think it's totally fine to not know I think it's fine to take your time I remember someone told me like oh but uh sometimes when you're a founder and you have a successful exit you have an expiration date and the expiration date's like a year so it kind of like you know it gives you gives you kind of undo pressure to be like oh my God like I have to do if I'm G to be relevant I have to like do something again but you know what I I'm going to take my time I think inspiration happens when it happens and it'll be fine yeah right the assumption behind that expiration dat idea is that you care about that that you care about being viewed as like founder who has something to offer or whatever because I'm I'm sure there's truth to the thing in one respect but if you don't care it doesn't you know if it's not what you're aiming at then it probably doesn't matter super interesting okay well I was gonna ask you what you're G to do next but you've just answered the question uh and it sounds a little bit like actually you know Patrick when I talked to Patrick about his exit again very different scale but when I talked to him about his you know he he brought up the notion of taking a sabatical and it sounds like maybe a different language for a similar thing which he was talking about adding working back in adding some some other kind of Pursuits and taking a little bit of time before he goes and dives into the next thing and he doesn't even know what that thing is necessarily going to be sort of an intentional time even even like you're saying about like I'm gonna wait six to 12 months before I go and uh write my big you know Angel checks or whatever so interesting all right you anything we missed anything that people should hear from you about any big Reflections on your journey that you you'd want people to hear oh gosh um broad open-ended question I know just feel like I'm incredibly lucky and it's kind of funny because also like when you have a successful exit I think like you kind of become a celebrity in a way or you you become like this person and it sort of makes me uncomfortable just because yeah I mean I just feel like I'm a you know normal average person who like got extremely lucky for sure but I will say that I can already tell I mean I don't know if or when I'm going to start something uh different or new but I can already tell that um the second time around it's going to be much easier because you already have like the contacts and the relationships you've made all the mistakes so you know what not to do funding is going to be so much easier because you're sort of a proven entrepreneur U also you could probably self fund so you probably don't have to worry about money as much so I'll be I'll be curious to see yeah like if I end up doing something like I'll be curious to see what that experience is like but yeah that makes sense I I think you know there's the the wins you've had which represent intellectual and experiential Capital but there's also the mistakes you made along the way I'm sure sure your your journey to an exit was not mistake free and so uh and so all of those things like are so valuable and I I actually think the best kind of mistakes you can make are the mistakes on the way to a win because you can actually contextualize them relative to the wins you've had as well and see the W the good and the bad of both and and understand what makes the mistake a mistake if you just make all mistakes you may not have learned from them you know anyway interesting okay awesome is there somewhere people should be following up with what you're doing if they want to stay up on your journey is there any any place you want to direct people to you you can follow me on in Instagram you can follow me on Twitter I've been or X now um I've been a little bit less active on on what is now X but I should get I don't know this the other debate too sometimes like I I kind of want to get back into it and I know like Patrick too he's sort of you know maybe this is part of his sabatical he's kind of taking a step back in terms of posting I always loved like his content and his tweets and stuff I know he told he told me he's not coming back he's like that that it's never going to happen I was like dang it dude you're so good on Twitter that stinks yeah that sucks but yeah it's kind of an internal debate for me too like do I want to just like be you know more in the down low and more be more behind the scenes or you know do I want to be more active and have more of a public uh Persona so but in the meantime you can follow me there yeah followed you on Instagram and on X and then that way if she comes roaring back with with content or talking about her next thing or or any other Reflections you can follow her there so hey thanks so much for taking the time I appreciate you doing this a lot and sharing with people what you've learned along the way and and some of the some of the wisdom from the journey I'm sort of just so fascinated I I told you before we started recording and I I've told a lot of people this right now that the sort of the most interesting topic to me right now in e-commerce is what is life like for the people who achieve the thing that most people are aiming at what is it actually like on the other side of that and I've had very small ex it's nothing like with the personal nothing like with the personal uh impact that you you were describing it's all been in the context of of large organizations and those kinds of things so I'm just I continue to be interested in sort of people's stories as they achieve really big impressive things and it is really big and impressive I hope you feel proud of it it's an awesome outcome and I think also what you said Is Right which is that a lot of people are cheering that on in part because people are just in a really cool way I think in the Ecom World sort of for each other and they taste a little bit of it themselves and it gives them a little hope for their exit as well and so it's really cool so thanks thanks again for taking the time yeah thanks for having me it's fun doing [Music] this all right there you have it my conversation with J Ryu I hope that was helpful to you I am so fascinated by people's different experiences along the Journey of e-commerce I've heard everything from the stories that Jew was referencing here of people who were much less happy after their exit to people like Jew who seem really happy and fulfilled and feeling great about where life is going and just kind of keep trucking on and have fulfillment and purpose outside of just their business and I've heard everything in between so I hope that again was helpful to you I told you after we hung up that I was really fascinated by her Amazon strategy as well I think the notion of really building around Amazon specifically for the sake of capturing the am on flywheel that bears more consideration if you have not heard my interview with Brian Porter I've actually done a couple of with him but I will link the one that is most relevant here Brian Porter is the chief e-commerce officer at simple modern another Amazon first Monster e-commerce brand just very very similar distribution strategy to what je described about hero if you want to hear more about how to think about Amazon and how they built a ninef figureure Amazon business at simple modern and still growing you should go listen to that interview with Brian Porter you'll like that a lot again also my interview that we referenced a couple times with Patrick about his life after the exit is also in the show notes so you can go check that out there and don't forget to use the code AJF 20 more now.co to get fractional supply chain help from more fractional supply chain staffing agency and fractional team for your supply chain in the Philippines I love this sponsor I work with them personally with the Staffing part of their business for my business I've been very helped by them they're high integrity great quality professional team members on my own team go check it out by going to more now.co again use the code hf20 to get 20% off your first three months as always I would love it if you would subscribe to this podcast we've got a couple of really awesome episodes coming up including I'm going to talk more about the state of my business if you're interested in that and sort of where AJF growth is at relative to what my expectations were and my relationship to the idea of goals which is something I've been thinking about a lot things are going well I want to tell you about it I want to tell you about why I think it's going well and and the sort of shape and Contour of my business relative to what I set out to create in the first place I've also got a great interview coming up with fan by SE like 50 e-commerce businesses a week on the m&a side because he's got an aggregator is constantly acquiring businesses that's going to be a great episode as well so that's it you know what to do rate review email me podcast jf.com Andre J Ferris on Twitter all the links as always are in the show notes and I will see you next [Music] time