2 Opposing Perspectives On How To Maximize Ad Success In Meta transcript

Barry hot has analyzed billions of dollars of ad spend. He's run hundreds of millions of dollars of ad spend himself and on this episode we are arguing. We're arguing about all kinds of elements including how creative actually gets delivered in meta to new customers, cold audiences, warm audiences and everything in between and how do you know what's actually working when you're launching ads beyond just the numbers in your dashboard.

This episode has me and Barry saying to each other you're wrong a lot. So if you're just used to me having episodes where guests of mine are talking about how great each other is. This one's going to have some arguments. It gets spicy. You're going to like it. Do you think click-based reporting in meta ads is occasionally wrong? Like some ads get over attributed or do you think it's like or do you think it's like a core problem with the platform?

Like I like do you think do you think that meta meta click-based reporting Mhm. And so we're limiting view conversions here. The meta click-based reporting is basically right. I mean maybe that's a simple way of framing it. Do you think it's basically right or basically wrong? Cuz I I'll just I'll get out in front of it. I think it's I think it's pretty much right that people should trust click-based reporting and that lots of third-party software is like a tremendous waste of money on this for the vast majority of brands and if anything is actually not only not only overtly worthless and a cost center but actually points people the wrong direction.

It actually is counterproductive I think. So yeah, but it all comes down to this question first. Do you think do you think meta click-based reporting is right basically? Okay. So I think we agree. I actually think we agree. Yes, I I do think it's often right. But there's a tremendous amount of nuance as to when, why, and how I think it's not right and how it it's kind of like a frog boiling in water. Like I think it gets worse for certain situations.

So like overall yes and I also think even if it is inflated, I think generally brands should be spending more than they're a little comfortable with performance-wise because there's there's this longer-term brand value that brands experience from spending more money. So, like I have to say like yeah, just mostly trust it. But when it's when you get granular and you really try and like make sense of like which ads are doing what technically or like Yeah. finding incrementality, there's a lot of nuance that I wanted talk to you more about about that and how there are situations in which even though I am agreeing with you generally that click data is often good and right.

I think there are a lot of situations where it's really misleading Mhm. and often completely non-incremental. So, when it's So, when it's when it's wrong, you think it's generally wrong by over-attributing revenue to ads? Like over-attributing value? Yeah. Yeah, over-attributing or mis-attributing um to ads. I think it all comes down to you know, I think the thing to pitch my course for a second. One of the things that I get to talk about in my course and I'm I like want you to explore is talking about like the nuances of what you're targeting, what you're allowing to be targeted, and what the system actually targets when you allow it to target certain things.

And I dig into that in the course and talk about like how if you're targeting broad, right? You know, if you are are a marketer from you know, a traditional more traditional marketer or been in the space for a while, you think it's kind of like going after a lot of people. But in reality, if you don't control the definition of broad, it's going to go after the warmest users. It's going to And that's where you're going to get most of your conversions from.

Yeah. And what's the problem with that? I I don't you don't you precisely want Meta to go get the people who are most likely to convert? Great question. And yes, overall, in a lot of ways, I do. But, I don't want it if they're already bound to be taking that action due to some other force. And and that force is greater for the brands that have more and more existing intent. Yeah. Right? So, there's actually a world and the the way I kind of frame this is like imagine you could cheat.

Imagine you could cheat the system not to get more actual sales, but to get credit for more sales. I want you to think about what you would do. Mhm. And get evil about it. And think, "Okay, well, if my product is already something that a lot of people are shopping for, right? Like a lot of people are in market for, then and if I can if I can just get credit for conversions by just getting people to click before they buy, right?

Then I can just make and I can just push out as much budget as I can, or not as much budget as I can, the smallest amount of money I can on the cheapest placements I can to get the most clicks of any type. Because uh important framework here, uh in order to be get getting a click-attributed sale, you don't need someone to get a link click, it is any click on an ad, which uh shout out to John Loomer. I'm sure you I don't know if you've met him.

I I I have met him. met him, but he was like the first Meta guy I ever followed like 10 years ago. Of course. He only just realized that recently. Not to like crap on John Loomer. don't think I do that. No, I don't think I do that. Yeah. he he you know that it's just any that's based on any click. Any click, yeah. Yeah, it's based on any click. And you can test it and he did. I I should just interview you. Go Yeah, but it like, the experiment he did I thought I It's so funny cuz I'm like, that's an unnecessary experiment because you can I've seen the example of it, but he did an experiment by which um he literally wrote in the ad like, don't click on this ad, but instead click um like, click comments.

Click on the comments or something like that, and then go Google this. Yeah. And then he was able to track uh that he got a lot of uh conversions, but none of them were from like, he had more conversion than he did link clicks. Yeah. Right? Interesting. Right. And that is possible. And it's hard to know that because you know, you're an expert in this space, an expert I admire, uh and I've said a lot of nice things about you the last time we spoke uh on record.

So, if anyone's listening to that and hasn't listened to that, go check that out. Thank you. Cuz I'm a I'm a big fan. And you know, even you didn't know that, right? Like, I'm not on you, right? No, it's fine, yeah. There's lots of things I don't know. Right. Yeah, I love you, man. Cuz that's the right attitude, right? Like, Yeah. Yeah. Um Yeah. So, the fact that it's not uh link clicks What does that matter? It does.

It does. That's a great Because because I I it's got I mean, John Loomer created a clever experiment to do that. I think that's smart. But like, isn't that going to be an edge case? Well, is it going to be such an edge case that like it for the vast majority of ads that the vast majority of brands are are are running? And I I think this is like the thing I think about with this is like, I'll I'll just say basically, I think that Meta underreports revenue as a general rule.

As long as you're on a click base. So, like, that Meta is actually creating more value than most people think. Everybody's so worried about the evil Zuck and how he's taking your money and evil evil ad platforms are are overreporting their revenue. And look, that's all a Google mindset. It's because of it's essentially because of branded search that people think that. And also because of old display networks where it was like huge view conversions.

But Okay, just have never seen the test shows like and and again also like I think if you're a nine-figure business then you probably have to think about this a little bit more carefully because you've got all these all whatever. But if you're like sub 40 million and like meta is the vast majority of your spend essentially essentially and your tracking is basically set up right essentially meta click based advertising is about right and especially if you're measuring 28 day if if you if you're measuring only one or seven day click you're for sure under reporting for sure the true value.

Right. And so you just report on 28 day click basis and then watch your AMV or watch your total customer revenue bank account never lies and the end and and the reason the reason that I say it like this is that I think what's possible here is that you're right about everything you're saying and that it's a waste of a lot of people's time to go down that road. Do you see do you know what I'm saying? And I bet you think I actually bet you agree with that like essentially that like there in the majority of cases people don't need that kind of nuance uh No.

Well, now this is the spicy part. Okay. What you just said like by the way we're going to if we talk about this for an hour this is going to be fantastic. Now we're going to do your creative stuff. You're very hot. We should talk about this really fast. You're very hot. You're my friend. You've been on the show before and there's a lot of stuff that we we you're meta ads nerd. You've spent hundreds of millions of dollars on ads do you think?

Personally yes and I've seen and studied literally billions of dollars worth of ad performance. Made a lot of made a lot of creative and I I think there's a lot of stuff you have to offer but when you told me you were launching a course and said hey can you talk about this some more I said yes on my show full episode because I because I want to talk about like I and I do want to get to some of your creative frameworks.

I I even actually thinking about them a ton since we last talked and and probably the last three to five months the number one thing I've worked on at my little boutique agency has been creative process. You should be tracking your meta ads with Billy. Go to billy.ai to get access to the best Meta ads tracking tool that exists. And what I mean by that is the best event match quality matching for your Meta ads account so that your store can be sending the best data back to your Meta ads account.

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So, I I have some questions for you about sort of a few things but um but anyway, keep going on media buying in the meantime cuz it's fun. Even if we only talk about media buying, I'm fine with it because it it deeply relates. Like it's a core principle that that Is your course going to cover media buying? Yeah, it's going to cover this it's going to cover a lot of what we're talking about right now but in further depth.

So, it's I'm I'm probably going to wind up I haven't finished it, right? Like the pre-recorded stuff but I've put in tons of hours already and it's Dude, it launches in like 11 days. I know. Yeah, you should finish it. Yeah, yeah, it's it's so good. Like the stuff I recorded is I'm like so excited about. Building ads at the very dot com. The link is in the show in the description. Go sign up. No, seriously, of course.

Yeah, please. Thank you. But yeah, like we it's not just pre-recorded stuff, right? It's That's right. We're going to do weekly uh, session. So, there's tons of pre-recorded stuff, um, tons of like additional stuff that you can actually like documents and things like that you can actually like use in addition to the course and then live sessions where we'll be going through stuff together with everyone. Uh, it's going to be like it's going to be fun.

It is going to be extremely educational and it's also going to be a huge return on investment. Like we're already talking about how next cohort we do, we're going to jack up the price because I'm pissed at how little we charge for this, uh, which sounds like a sales tactic. Genuinely, uh, it's not. It's It's genuinely not. Like I really want I do not enjoy giving away as much value. I don't like giving away all of my everything, which this course has everything about my perspective.

And we're going to touch on that like now. I want to talk more about this click thing because I think you'll want someone who's going to hear this, I think will even you, I think will be like, "Oh, yeah, shoot. I want to hear Barry talk about that more." Unless all of this call, you know, on this chat, which I doubt I will. There's too much. But so going back to the click thing if it's all right. Um, I both I I agree deeply agree with you that overall actually meta under attributes overall, right?

Like I'll see a business with like a 1.25 ROAS in meta, but I know it's driving like a three in reality or something like that, right? that's a Yeah, that that person needs to fix the tracking, but yeah. Well, it's I don't know if it's a tracking thing or it's it's just like we're advertising on a social platform. There's down further downstream effects of the advertising that can't be tracked. Like there's dark social like, you know, you advertise a good ad and it's not that relevant to this right person, but it's relevant to their friend or five friends and they send it to a group chat.

Like that stuff happens. It's a social platform or they text it to someone. Like, this stuff happens. Yeah. It's not I mean, yeah, maybe they're edge cases, but it's chunks of business. yeah, maybe you see that more than I do. Yeah, that I mean, that would be a huge gap, I think. Yeah. can't track it. Like, but there's so much so many sales that I see come in through direct, that come in through, you know, organic search.

Yeah. So, I I do agree overall, like, the click attribute Sorry, click attributed sales in Meta is lower than what it's actually driving. 100% with you, especially if you're looking at one-day click or seven-day click. Yeah. However, again, when you allow the system to cheat, if you just think about try and be evil. Really think about if you're Meta, and you your job is to get as many sales attributed to your clicks as possible to get the client to spend more money.

Mhm. Right? And you know there's a ton of existing demand. You know that the site is already getting purchases without your involvement. You know that. You can You're You have the data. Then you can quickly start to understand the demographics, the anything that that whatever signals that show that someone's likely to buy. Now, there's two ways to look at that. One is like you're like, "Great. I want I want it to advertise to the people that are already likely to buy, right?

I want it I want to shepherd them through." you just told me is that's the that's the person I have to spend the least money to acquire. Right? Like, yeah. Yes. But, I I see your point. I'm I'm being a little bit annoying about this because because I think I think people overplay this hand mostly. I don't think people underplay it. I think most people are too worried about this. And and they still do all these retargeting things and stuff like that.

And I think it is a fundamental advantage of the platform that Meta goes after people who are who are most likely to buy first because all that is say another way of framing that is you spend the least money to acquire a customer first. Now, it's very easy to see why that goes wrong. Like I said, I I like again, I I don't disagree with that, but you know, I remember seeing something that Taylor Holiday put out where they were like running incremental on retargeting ads and it was like retargeting ads were highly incremental because people make this people make this assumption that that essentially less likely to buy equals more incremental, but that's not true.

It is not necessarily true. It it is it is possibly the case that that a click-based or that an ad is the thing that converts somebody and is highly incremental even if they were already down your funnel a little bit. This is why you send them emails by the way. If you're wondering why you send people emails, it's because you think it still doesn't. If it was just like I mean, imagine like the other person is already really likely to buy, I'm not going to email.

That's not what anybody does because you know that people get distracted and they think all kinds of other things and all that kind of stuff. So so I I think people are too worried about this and generally ought to keep eliminating all the targeting and let Meta spend your money there and then just follow the revenue. Okay, we agree and we disagree cuz I I think that there are too many brands that don't think about this enough, especially bigger ones.

This is a problem that gets worse as you get bigger and this is a problem that is more challenging the more intent there is for your product, right? And for your brand. Yeah. Cuz if you're able, let's say, you're in a category that's already got a lot of demand. You launch a new brand and you're able to scoop up a lot of that like immediately via search ads, okay? The search ads because let's say there's a a of search traffic for that problem that your your product solves, or for that product specifically.

Yeah. Search ads are going to scoop that up. They're actually It's actually going to be incremental. It's going to drive a lot of value. Facebook ads are likely going to figure out quickly to just sprinkle ads in front of those people that are already getting targeted anyway, and it's literally not going to be incremental. Because it's not just people that are Hold on. Run back the search comment you just made. Where do you think search ads are more incremental?

If it's your going after category or product that there's already demand for, Yeah. and you're a new brand in that category, and you can like it's hard to do this. rank for the term. Yeah. Right. Right? Or or or if you start to suddenly SEO rank, right? Yeah. That's same kind of same kind of thing where now you have lots of traffic, high-intent traffic. If you're optimizing your Shopify store to maximize your profit, you should be doing that with IntelliGem's as one of the core tools in your tech stack. intelli-gems.io is where you should go to get the most robust CRO on-site AB testing software of which I am aware.

It's It's the most robust and best software for this for a few reasons. First of all, it's incredibly easy to install. I know nothing about anything that touches developers. I'm terrible at it. It doesn't matter. I can still install IntelliGem's and get started with easy testing right away. Second, you can test every element of your store. Like all the basic stuff, right? PDPs, collection pages, all that, but it goes so far beyond that.

It You can actually test pricing, which is amazing because price is a really crucial decision in the performance of your products in your store. You can test free shipping thresholds, all kinds of elements. You can even do full Shopify theme split test, which is amazing. And on top of that, the thing I really love about IntelliGem's is that it's really a profit optimization tool, not just a conversion rate tool. Because as you make some of those larger changes on your site, you're going to have all kinds of conflicting metrics.

But what IntelliGem's will do is plug into the actual product data at your store level and tell you what tests are yielding not just like conversion rate increases, but actual profit increases for your store. So, if you're optimizing your store for maximum profits, you should be testing all kinds of elements of it with IntelliGems. I guarantee you there are lots of the little decisions you made really thought thoughtlessly about how all kinds of things work on your store that you should be testing all the time to figure out how to convert more customers at higher profitability, and you should do it with IntelliGems at intelligems.io.

Yeah, organically. Right. Yeah, okay. All right. Yeah, I I agree with this. This is actually another mistake people make all the time, which is like they treat their categorical search ads with a very different ROAS target than their than their meta ads, right? Even though they don't rank it off They're on page 47 on Google for for like the category. It's like, "No, if if the person is searching your category." And so, let's do an example of this, right?

If they searched moisturizer, right? Okay, that would be like an impossible term to win on cuz it would be it's so all over the place. Also, I wonder how much people are how much people are actually buying from that term, right? Yeah. But let's just Okay, just simple example, right? Moisturizer. Okay? You rank number 760 for moisturizer organically, right? So, they're just not finding you that way. And then And then you get a you have a Google ad that that that somebody clicks on for that term.

You should hold that ad to the exact same ROAS target as your meta ads, whatever that is, right? Because that is fundamentally a completely that customer has no idea you exist. They're searching a categorical term for a category that they know exists, but not for you. Right. But they already have the exact same Yeah. This is where This is where it gets tricky, cuz like your in premise I I uh largely agree with what you're saying.

But like the problem there is there's known intent, whereas with Facebook, it's harder to know or generate You have to often generate that intent. It's it's it's hard to get that known existing intent, which is a very different conversion rate, which is why by the way I tell them don't look at conversion rate of a site. No. There is no such thing. rate. It means nothing. Yeah, it means nothing. Two different things rolled into one thing.

But but even to your example, this is another funny thing that actually may play into this conversation about media buying a little, which is that like the moment somebody searches media buy moisturizer and clicks on a moisturizer um uh s- uh skin care uh site, okay? Sure. store. Um what's going to happen to their meta feed, right? Um they're going to get 700 different skin care ads sent to them. And and it's like the old second-party data sharing platform kind of idea, right?

And that's how meta works, right? Is that it's like it it basically takes once you're in market it starts feeding you all of the all of the brands that are in there. And Andrew, this is my point. My point is that if you're using 7-day click attribution and the system doesn't need to get you to click to the site. They can just feed you the ads that are most likely to get you to just click on it, tap on it, that doesn't even count as a link click.

And if you then buy within 7 days of that, it's counting that. But if because you like you just said, it knows that people are shopping for competitors. So like yes, fundamentally it's good. You want you want the system doing that. You want the system going after those people that are in market, right? But there's a lot of times where that person might already be destined to buy your product from any number of other signals.

And like I'm not saying this is that Not that many. There's not that many times. That's the thing. I mean there are some. It's just it's just it's just Yeah, again, like I think somebody tweeted this, maybe it was Cody or some Cody Block or something somebody tweeted something like like uh you know seeing my ad next to all these other brands' ads is like such a fundamental problem with Meta. I hate it. and I said what I think you mean is it's the fundamental reason Meta works so well.

Like Like it has like it's like complete I mean it's probably annoying once you're one of the big guys in this space, but like it is it is so much of the power of the machine is that like it identifies in-market customers. Think about the Reframe that in the opposite direction. What you are in some ways saying this actually going to a creative point in a second cuz I've been thinking about this a bunch for one of my clients.

Like The The alternative to that is to say, "Hey Meta, don't target any of the people who are actively interested in my product product category. It's annoying to me. I only want the people who are not at all interested in buying this product category right now cuz that would be incremental to my business." Like that is so Like no, no, no. You want the people who are looking for your category. That's exactly who you want. don't think I'm I'm I'm disagreeing with that.

Yeah. I think what I'm saying is and then there's nothing you can do to control it anyway. And I think that's net positive. Like going after the people that are in market for other things. Like that's fine. But I guess what I'm saying is if people have already shopped on your site And then left without buying anything? Yeah. I think that that it's still doing this a lot where it's going to And if you're not control again, if you're not controlling for this if someone went to your site dropped in their email right?

So now they're getting emails from you. And now in 3 days when the email flow finally gives them a good offer or something, they buy. Right? Or maybe they do it in a week. Depending on it is, Facebook's going to keep feeding them things that'll get them to click so that they can still get attributed for that sale even if Yeah. they never had anything to do with that person coming into the market. So there's My point is just that there's so many ways that it can do that.

Now, it's weird, right? That I'm saying like both? I'm saying both like Facebook's over attributing and Facebook's under attributing. I'm literally saying both, which is probably really annoying. But, what I'm saying is it is in fact both. And that the problem I'm actually trying to solve help people solve for when I say that it's under attributing or mis-attributing is that I genuinely have seen this where it will deliver more on ads or it will credit more conversions on ads or ad sets, right?

That work better specifically for those that were more audiences that aren't incrementally buying. And here's the problem. You or whoever is the marketer reviewing the performance is then learning about these ads and and considering these ads winners when in reality they're just the they're not ads that are very incremental. They're just ads that are the best at getting the last make a bunch more like them is what you're saying.

That's my problem with the situation. And it creates a very unscalable situation. So, what should you do about this? Let's say I disagree with you wholesale, and I probably don't, but let's just say I did. I'm cuz I I I bet I will Yeah, I have a I have I'm thinking of a brand of mine right now where I think like maybe that analysis is exactly what's going on here and I need to consider that for my next round of creative.

So, what should you do? can I guess what's going on there is you have an image ad that is getting a lot of conversions and you don't understand why? No, I think it's a it's actually a mix of image and video. Yeah. But, it's I but the angle's the same on all of them. The message is the same. I'll tell you what it is, it's a comparison ad. It's actually exactly an illustration of this. It's It's an ad saying here's why our product is better than other ones in the category.

And so, maybe all that's doing I mean and I actively thought about for this. We are not the biggest player in the space. Right. The biggest player in the space is doing the blocking and tackling for us basically. They are creating They are creating demand in the category and I am so happy to siphon off that demand by saying, "Here's why our product is better than theirs." Yeah. And Side note, by the way, if you're in a space like that, don't worry about your competitors, cheer them on.

Like, grow If you're growing a new category, they're growing it and you're growing it, grow the category together and be okay with it. That's exactly right. For this this is it is a precisely a category where the adoption curve is up into the right. You just have to check the Google Trends search volume for it. And in that category, I think we are we are we have a symbiotic relationship with the with the competitor. I've actually thought about this.

I'm I'm working on starting a brand right now. It's in a very small category and I've thought like, "Oh man, am I worried about like margin and people ripping me off or whatever?" It's like, "No, I actually need other people to get in there and and grow the category with it. Especially when it's when it's a subcategory within a larger category, right? The The classic example that I use is back when I was working at Qalo, silicone wedding rings.

Mhm. Right? Like, we were an existing category. The category was wedding ring, but we were a subcategory within that, which is silicone wedding ring. And so, growing the category is really helpful. Now, at some point, that became detrimental because there was too much of a race to the bottom on price, but and especially in a sort of commoditizable product like that, it became very hard to differentiate in any way. But, for a little while, like growing the category was a really helpful thing.

So, anyway. But, so So, to to this point, right? So, So, what should someone do if they are analyzing ads, they're making more ads, and they're finding they're getting nowhere, and maybe it's for the exact reason that you said, right? That like they're sort of iterating off the wrong ads in their ad account. What should they do? Uh well, it's it's it's that's hard. Like, just alone that is being in that situation is hard beca- it's especially hard because whether you're manually retargeting or or automatically retargeting via like in an ASC or just any ad set that isn't excluding visitors or engagers.

Any ad set that isn't excluding those is effectively targeting those and retargeting. So, it's really hard to prove this with data because you also can't you're not if you have two ad sets testing one versus another, it's not in a vacuum. So, like one will pull users away from the other. Like it will get prioritized cuz users can only see one ad at a time, right? Um So, like what would it what would someone have to do in that situation if if that's what I think?

First, I think it's very important to be testing new concepts or go and test your old concepts if you want to like backtest this, right? To colder audiences. How? How to colder audiences? Exclude visitor exclude your recent visitors. Define recent by however you want. I would say not as much as 180-day visitors, that's too much. And I would say not less than 7 days. Because if if you're using 7-day click attribution, then you might as well exclude people that have been to site within 7 days, right?

Cuz it you don't need them to come back to site if they're already able to be converted and attributed by something else. So, somewhere between 7 and 180 days, 14, 30, whatever. Do that. Visitors, engagers, um I wouldn't bother with video viewers or anything like that. Uh and probably also exclude anyone who's already subscribed to your email list. And then go advertise to those people and see what ads work best. And see if that ad that you you're seeing as a winner is still a winner because it they're not.

And the problem is the scalability. The stuff that you see that can scale and you see that gets a good CPA or good ROAS when it's allowed to go after your warm audiences is just not the most scalable thing. That's the problem. It's more expensive to bring more people into that funnel. So even in the K K right K even in the K example like I'm thinking like Yeah, it's it's more it's more expensive to bring more people into the category, right?

Then just to get the people that are already in the category for some other product. That's obviously like you said it's a race to the bottom, but for a lot of new categories it's not really you still have to educate them. The I I think I would like love to use like Tushy Bidet's as an example. They're AdCrit client. One of my favorite things I'm in a bunch of their ads. I have one right here. I love it. Yeah. Yeah. But like that's a category where if I'm advertising Yeah, like there's people in market for Bidet's, right?

People are like already understand why they want it. Their friends told them about it. So they're shopping and now they either want the lowest price or they want a certain feature or whatever. But like overwhelmingly most Americans don't have a Bidet. Who has a Bidet? Yeah. Don't don't even I would argue most Americans don't even understand what a Bidet is or how it's valuable. So that's much more expensive. But in order to grow the category and grow the business you have to get more people in.

Now a lot of people are going to hear that and be like that's too expensive. That's too difficult. That's too whatever. But in reality better ads that are better at working on colder audiences, right? Are going to have a higher impact on your business and it's scalability than just advertising the things that are best at getting the people over the line. That's The The example I like to use is like it's the the the thing that gets someone to uh enter sign up for a marathon is very different than the motivation that gets someone to complete a marathon.

And that's coming from someone who's never run a marathon and definitely never run One of my One of my actually Have I ever told you this? One of my life goals is to never run a marathon. Me too. I'm going to sign me up for that one. So far I'm doing great. Me too. Um but like if you were to like think about ads as like a in in terms of a marathon, is it and like what what, you know, powers someone to to finish a marathon?

Is it that last cup of water they drink? Is that why they finished the marathon? Is it the energy bar they they ate? Is it that high five they got in the last mile? Is that why they finished? Is that why they And is that the Is that what you want to attribute I don't I talked to a marathon runner the other day who said you have to eat when you run a marathon. Like I had this conversation two days ago. It was like, you know, they were saying like you can't do it without the energy bar basically.

Like you just get your body gets worn down. So yes, so I attribute it to the energy bar among other things. That's insane. THAT'S INSANE. I YOU HAVE to attribute it to getting someone to even run the marathon in the first place. No, so you're This is a great example of why I think you're probably wrong about a lot of this. Um which is which is the the marathon, if you think about both the marathon and the bidet, right?

There's there's multiple stages that are happening here. One of them is that somebody has to begin to have interest in doing this, okay? Um and so you have to generate it somehow or other. How do you generate that? How do you manufacture it? Yeah, of course. And of course ads have to do that, right? Something has to. But also, before they make a purchase, there are all of these things that get in the way of it, right?

I'm going to say for Tushy, it's probably like people probably feel weird about having them in their house, you know, like many things. There's 50 things. I have ads that cover all of them. it works. Exactly. They don't know how it works. The price is probably something like working on this This is why I like working on this problem. There's so many problems that stop people. And it's my job to exactly my point. Yeah.

The idea that you that that because the person was already interested the ad is therefore not incremental is wrong. They have all of these concerns about it and objections. Some people are going to click and buy right away, right? Of course, they just are like, "Whatever. I got all this money and it's no problem. Like I'm just going to just going to try it out." Or they just like buying stuff, you know, that's just definitely a subset of people.

Um but there's another subset of people who have clicked on your website, looked at your stuff, and they still just like, "Well, I don't know. I feel weird about this." And so which one do you attribute credit to? The answer is both. Um and some people are vaguely aware of the days, but like don't really, you know, but aren't really in the awareness funnel. The marathon's the same thing. The marathon I I think you have the wrong analogy here about completing the marathon.

The the right analogy is signing up for the marathon or like becoming aware of the marathon and then taking the step to actually sign up and then doing the training. All of those things are necessary in that process. Now, not for everybody. For some people, they're in they're in pretty pretty close to marathon shape and every time they go for a run, they get of marathons, right? That's a very Marketing to that person is very different than somebody who's never run a marathon before. here's what I'm saying instead of what you said, okay?

What I would do instead of building these exclusions or whatever is I would just assume that there are basically different kinds of people in different kinds of awareness and that those things all overlap with each other in all kinds of ways. There's there's the I'll take myself. I am bidet aware, but not currently bidet curious, bidet interested, right? Um but maybe I should be, okay? You should be. Everyone should be.

Okay, yeah, that's what I hear. Okay, so um all the bidet people like just love bidets so much. That's actually what makes me interested, okay? So um We're not Neanderthals like you. Yeah, right. Right. Um okay. So um So am I aware of Tushy? Like kind of, sort of, but like it's so you don't have to actually like create awareness of the category or the brand for me. I was aware of the brand name. I was aware of that. Like but I'm not really interested in buying right now.

There's also another person who literally doesn't know it exists, you know, basically. That's probably actually a small group of people. Prob- Yeah, I don't know. Maybe maybe not. it's a pretty big group. Yeah, okay. All right. Okay. So, anyway, but the point is the way that I would approach the creative challenge there is to say, "I'm just going to talk to all of those people and let Meta sort out where to put the money." Basically.

And Meta is going to be is going to is going to target the creative is the targeting. Because what Meta's actually going to do, this is the reason your lookalike audience, not yours, but the people's the people's lookalike audience is a waste of time. Because lookalike audiences have moved from the targeting at the ad set level. To the ad. The ad creates a lookalike audience of its own. And that can include all kinds of factors.

And the people are are at all these different stages are doing all this stuff. So, so what I would do is say, and this is actually the way I would I'm approaching this this issue I was telling you about earlier with this other client of mine, right? I'm going like, "Okay, I know I need to make these comparison ads because people are definitely shopping in the category, but I also probably need to create a more direct feature benefit ad or whatever it is where it's like here's what this will do for you even if you're not shopping the category." And my assumption is that I can do both.

The way that I've started to frame this is very simply explore and expand, okay? So, like So, for our team, it's like we should always be doing some level of both of this essentially. Constantly exploring new angles to try to open up new audiences and exploring new sort of like visual frameworks and things like that, right? To try to open up new Um really actually we keep the exploration targeted towards angles. And we say like we want to try new messages within this because like let's say bedays, let's take Tushy like like, you know, maybe there's just like a a pure price one, right?

Um you're interested in a beday, but it's too expensive. Here's why that's wrong. How much would you pay for a clean butt all the time, right? Whatever. Okay. Uh So, it's something like that. Okay. Um And then and then that's message one and then message two, message three. And we tend to run those through the same formats over and over again. Because they're simple and they're easy to make and you can test the message.

Um and then we do expand where we say like, "Okay, these this ad hit." And now actually second and third versions that hit. So, now we want to go make eight to 10 variations with the same message, but a bunch of different formats and maybe if you know, counter-positioning and try all that kind of stuff, right? And we just run that back over and over again. Instead of trying to go figure out which ad is being placed where, what we do is we just say, this one is kind of working, this one is kind of not working.

Mhm. Um we're going to not getting any traction here, getting traction here. What happens if we scale up the traction? And then there's a next step after that, which is if you scale up the the in the expand side. If you expand and it works, you got a couple more winners, what do you do? You keep expanding. And what I have done, running that through manual bids, broad targeting, excluding only past customers, and the only reason I exclude past customers is because I have a very different target for them than I have for a new customer.

Yeah, yeah, that's that's a whole other conversation that we Right. That's about financial targets. completely agree on. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, sure. So, um so, if you run all that through manual bids, then what will happen is that Meta will keep exploring. And the thing that I really disagree with people about with this is the notion that Meta will only go on these like warm warmed audiences all the time and that you actually can't reach cold people.

I I'll just tell you, I think that is like blatantly dead wrong. And the reason I think it's dead wrong is because I have run conversion optimized manual bids for countless brands that have like continued to spend more and more all the time. They do not have a reach and frequency problem. They reach more people as long as the ads are effective, you know, or you know, you run new products. So, so rather than trying to like go dig down to the details of like what is this ad doing, my approach would be just expand, add your manual bids, throw them out there, and and let and then just keep seeing how the total lift works out, basically.

Man, first of all, I I really enjoy that's a lot. I really enjoy getting to talk with anyone about this stuff, but in particular, I really love talking to to you about this. I love your perspective. Um and I I there's so much to I wish I could like I probably should have taken better notes. Wait, wait, let's do this. Do this. Respond about the creative let cuz I want people to want to sign up for your course. So, this is important.

Focus on that. So, the reason why I'm I'm dwelling on this this media buying concept is because I'm actually saying I agree with you. Mhm. I I 100% want you to be running something that is broad and is allowed to target recent visitors. I want that. I encourage that. I'm with you. Great. However, I absolutely recommend any new stuff that you're running to be run through the framework of not targeting recent visitors.

Clickers. Okay. Recent visitors, recent engagers, anything. Because the more you learn about what gets those people to take action, whether that's an actual sale, or add to cart, initiate checkout, any of those high-value actions on your site, the stuff that's best at doing that for colder audiences is the most scalable stuff that you can do. The more you can learn about what gets people in, that's where the giant scale is.

Whereas, what you if you only learn about the the ads, if you only learn about the ads that are in that ad set or ASC or whatever it is, even if especially with a bid cap, it's only going to be going after the easiest conversions. It's still going to go beyond that. It's still going to prospect. But, overwhelmingly, especially depending on the intent, like I mentioned before, and depending on the scale, depending on your other traffic sources, it's going to get lazy.

Mhm. And it's going to start to spend more on the stuff that is best at just getting credit. This is again, it's a You can't really notice it until it that the point of the bid cap? Right? Cuz cuz all I'm saying to Meta is if ads can reach somebody at X cost, spend the money. And so, like, if I say look, I'm willing to pay 100 bucks for this customer, Mhm. then it will keep going out beyond those audiences as long as it can do it for for less than 100 bucks.

And if there's some ad that can't do it, it won't it would just won't it would just won't spend it. And so, that's why I feel like I That's why I think it scales great. Like, it it scales easily because all your Now, if you're running an auto bid setup and you're forcing every ad to compete against each other and run lowest cost, I totally get why this would be a problem. But, if you're running manual bids, I just don't know why that would be a problem.

It's still a problem with manual bids because you're you're incentivizing the system to only get you the cheapest possible conversions, which if you had any other traffic it You're incentivizing it to get as as many conversions as possible under a certain threshold. It will start with cheap ones, but it but it will also if it if those ads can't reach to your $100 cap target or whatever, it just won't spend on them. Like, theoretically.

You're correct. But, then if that's the case, okay? Which ads in that situation are going to get more conversions? Which are the the My point is Yeah. the ads that get are best at getting people over the line, that are that energy bar, okay? Mhm. Mhm. are not at all the things that get people to even think about running a marathon. And now, I'm not saying you need to be run running a lot of ads to get people to that it would never Someone like me to run a marathon.

I'm not really saying that. Yeah. But, there's a big gap there. And you're By by hyper-focusing on bids and and allowing it to go after recent visitors and engagers, Mhm. the thing you're learning about the most is the stuff that's getting all the people that are either ready to go across the finish line or whatever. And learning about that doesn't is not the most scalable thing you can do. That's don't think that's right.

Yeah, I don't think that's right. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I I because I just I think this is the point of the bid. This is the point of the bid. What the bid does is it it's cuz this I still think this is the problem with with your analogy like it's like no as long as long as the ad can can convert some cuz cuz like in your example, there is some price at which it is too expensive to create awareness, right? For the brand.

There's always a brand right? Yeah. Right, for Tushy they can't spend a million dollars on a customer, okay? Right? So So there's a some hypothetical threshold. Well, whatever that threshold is, set that as the bid and then tell tell the ads to spend. And as long as there are incremental customers to be reached at that at that threshold, it will it will spend on them. Right, but the problem I'm I'm trying to actually say is that it it if it's already expensive enough for it to get the warmest users in and those are not really incremental.

Yeah. Yeah, which I think is wrong, but for sure. Okay. But that I mean I I see what you're saying. Right? I mean like going back to the thing we we said off, you know, before we started recording, right? Like for a bigger like if if Tushy, okay? Yeah. If Tushy were to run a fully blank ad from the wrong page with no content, no ad copy or copy that says like something completely irrelevant and it drove it either didn't drive to a link or it has to have to have a link.

It drove to a broken link, okay? And you force budget to that. I guarantee you that ad will still get attributed sales either from views or from clicks. It will it will Yeah, but I think I'm not right. I I think I mean just run it against other ads that are better ads and then and have the same manual bid. But again, the Well, yeah, wait. The bad ad will probably not do as well, but I'm My point is if you run it, it will.

And if you actually, by the way you know, I've had a lot of fun with this over the years. Yeah, I bet. If you run uh if you want to Here, if you want to get a cheap If you want to get cheap attributed conversions, run a link click campaign to visitors from the last day. Yeah, right, of course. You're going to get conversions, but those aren't going to be incremental. You're not going to actually be driving any net new sales.

That's literally what the system is doing. Literally what you're allowing it to do. And finding the ad that's best at that is not the ad that's best at driving incremental sales, and certainly not the bad that's best at bringing in any new customers into this space. Yeah. So, you you have to That's the point of the manual bid. You just tell them the out of the cost. Then you just tell them the out of the cost. But it will do that in a way that the mode that the ad that spends on are not scalable.

Let me ask you about a scenario. Sure. I have a client Mhm. that was that spent let's call it 50k in a month in the first quarter of last year, Okay. Not enough. And in Not enough for me to even care. In the third quarter, they spent they got up to like 150. Okay. Something like that, right? And then let's say this month they'll spend call it 300, okay? Mhm. 100% manual bids, Mhm. 100% targets like that have never excluded a existing visitor from the site.

Yeah, I'm not saying that's not possible. So, but this is this is what happens over and over and over again with my brands. It's like Like I remember talking to a meta rep, different client, that that they were, you know, the meta rep was trying to get us to spend on, you know, top of the funnel conversion optimizations or whatever. And I looked at our spend, and it was like okay, highly seasonal brand, you know, let's call it a hundred in uh I don't know, first quarter per month, uh a million in November or December, right?

Like one of those kinds of things. Like those aren't the exact numbers, but that kind of idea. Spends 8 to 10x November, December what they spend in other months. And I can go look at the impressions, and I can go look at the reach data, and it is it is the the frequency is the same in both months, and we don't change the targeting at all. We just run a manual bid and let it go. And I see this over and over and over again.

So, when I hear the argument that like Meta won't reach past the warm audiences, I'm like, "Well, that's just like plainly wrong, and it's happening at meaningful spends." Now, again, perhaps for a brand that is spending $30 million a year, and they have $150 million in revenue, No, I'm I'm going to say it's I'm going to I'm not going to even say it's that big. At the scale you're talking about, this is the same problem.

I'm still let's still let's stay in that because I'm actually Okay, so use my first example, 50 150 300. It's a great example. How is what you're saying even possible in that case? Yeah, what I'm actually what I'm Great question. What I'm actually saying, right, is that in your example, right, you're just capturing the demand that changes. The demand is just changing, right? But like there's a chance you could actually be just growing the demand the rest of the year, as well.

What do you mean by the demand in that case? The intent the demand. This brand was like a a few million dollar brand. Yeah. This brand was a few million dollar brand, and then they then they tripled their revenue, whatever. Like the the demand for their for their particular brand didn't exist. Yeah, right. So, I guess what I'm actually saying is, first of all, what you're doing obviously can work, Yeah. right? And my and it can scale, right?

I'm not saying it can't, and I'm not saying it won't. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I'm saying, also, is that especially as you get bigger, especially as you you you get more and more scale, the more and more that your ads you're there are warmer and warmer audiences. I I have seen this happen where you the system, meaning your teams, your creative, start to learn more about the things that work better for warmer audiences, especially does that brand have any other traffic sources?

Uh not really. None? they have they have some Google. Yeah. But but it's it's a it's a I mean the meta spend is probably six to seven X the Google spend, you know, something like Yeah, but it's not necessarily about the the the difference in spend, it's the difference in like if that Google spend is really the clicks are the same. Uh they like I don't know. Yeah, I don't What do you mean the clicks are the same? The cost per click?

What do you mean? Well, I I I don't you know, this I don't know. Maybe there's some CPM gap, but there's there's no way Google's driving enough demand to create that for meta. And if it is, that's fine with me. Like yeah, I don't really care. Like it yeah, so. So the the example you're giving, when I hear stuff like that, like I yes, when you're bid capped and yeah, it's going to spend more when people are buying that thing more.

Yeah. But I'm I'm saying like there's literally a world in which you can intentionally bring more people in so that there's more people that are willing to be buying at that moment. Like I get what you're saying and what you're saying is good. And I'm also not saying Yeah. that Facebook doesn't prospect. Yeah. I'm not saying that. But I'm saying that the more you allow the system to do that, the more it's going to spend either on creative or you're going to learn about creative that isn't the most scalable creative and then you you you plateau.

It literally you it's really hard to notice. So you're just scaling and scaling and scaling. I have one client right now where I want to I'm going to try this. Cuz what I what I was thinking when I have conversations like this is that like you're looking at a lot of ad accounts and you've run this methodology a bunch of times. And so So probably seeing something real here, you know? So it's not like So I I I'm I'm arguing with you because it's good content.

Cuz you know you've seen whatever and you've seen a lot of stuff. Yeah, yeah. And so and I also don't disagree for a second that different creative tends to appeal to different people in different spots, right? This is the notion of messaging that does this. I'm just trying to think about like how would I do this? But I've got one brand that's a little plateaued right now on their spend and it's like, okay, maybe this is what we should try and do.

We should we should launch some new creative when we launch it. And we should specifically launch new creative especially when it's not this comparison stuff or whatever like we should we should think about like okay, what if we did some exclusions and we say can can will this perform any differently launched like that? Um then then otherwise. So And you have to have a higher you have to have a higher CPA expectation for that targeting too because you're not allowing it to get the cold audience.

So it has to be different, right? You have to have a different benchmark that you're going after there. And maybe the whole thing will rise. Yeah, okay. I'm going to try that. I'm going to launch some like that. Yeah, cuz and and of course like the notion of like a blending out of CPA being a somewhat of a problem could I could imagine how that fits. I just tend to think that it all comes out in the wash, but at least in a meta account, but yeah.

But that's where the we get into the creative discussion, right? Yeah. Is once you can start to understand and find the ads that resonate with people who aren't really in market or aren't as in market Yeah. I think that's where you really start to make things that click and from what I've seen and tested those things that you can make that are scalable to those colder audiences also work to your warm audiences when you when you give them the option you give them that ability.

But the the ads are very different and like I know uh for an account I'm running like the ad that works best in let's say the ASC with a cost cap is something that would only work for warm audiences. Like, not only, excuse me, not only, but it mostly really works for warm audiences. And I'll tell you why I know that in a second. Okay. But when we run that ad to colder audiences, it doesn't do jack Okay. Comparatively.

Okay. Now, one of the most amazing tools, I've always kind of had these beliefs and hypotheses, but I've really been able to firm it up more thanks to the account-level engaged users and existing customers targeting, uh, settings at the account level. Because now, depending on how you define an engaged user or engaged audience in at the account level, you can get that breakdown. So, you can target everyone, no no controls, or or you can exclude customers, right?

Or for a little bit, don't exclude customers, and see how the system allocates budget, and see how it allocates at individual ad levels. You can literally go and view that breakdown for every single ad, and you can see not just how much it spends, but you can see how much how many sales it gets, and what the ROAS is for each individual level. Now, I love seeing when, uh, I can track existing customers because depending on if it's a product that's consumable, right?

Existing customers might be able to It might People are buying again, so it might see It might spend a decent amount on existing customers. A product where people don't consume again, let's say a Tushy, right? Where the the chance of someone's buying a bidet and then buying another bidet is small, right? Like, they have other accessories and things they sell too, but like, yeah. You're not buying a bidet and then being like, "Oh, I love this." and then buying another one.

If you are, it's just not a frequent It's not a valuable thing. So, the system isn't going to optimize, isn't going to deliver a lot for that, right? It's There's nuances to how the system and the system can understand way more nuance than those just two simple, you know, ends of the spectrum. Yeah. But like you can literally go and view how your ads are delivering to new audiences, engaged users, and existing customers.

And that's how I've helped develop my perspective on this and why I'm like I've seen so many times where when you do allow it to go after these warmer audiences, it's not bad. Like I'm with you. It's not a bad thing. I I'm not saying don't let your ads retarget. I'm just saying you need to learn two different things. You need to learn that A Like cuz it cuz cuz it's not a it's not a efficiency of spend problem that you're getting at really.

What you're actually getting at here is that it's a it's a problem of what kind of what kind of ads to make, right? You're saying you need that you need the knowledge of like what to do next. Like the efficiency of spend problem is is it sounds like the way you're saying it is a smaller problem. The bigger problem is you want to know what ads to make next to generate additional scale, right? Scale. Yeah. Scale. Scale, scale, scale.

Because to me that's my job. My job is not to get the most efficient ad possible. My job is get the most scale possible at an efficient level, which I think you agree is your job. But like Yeah. When I look at it in a bigger picture I'm not trying to get cost down down down down down. I'm trying to keep costs at a level and I'm trying to scale up. That's like and and to me to do that I have to be aggressively pursuing the ads, messaging, visuals that bring more people in than just get credit for getting people to cross the finish line.

Mhm. That's and there is a degree to which it's more it's too expensive, right? To get you know, a chunky boy like me to run a marathon is way too expensive, right? That ad is way too expensive. But, there are plenty of other people who've never run a marathon before. Who run who would love to run a marathon or maybe have never really considered, but maybe they need this motivation. Maybe they need this messaging. Maybe they need to learn this little bit.

And it's all on a spectrum, right? From from that last Cliff bar to get someone over the line versus, you know, someone who like is like me a chubby boy who's never going to run a marathon. There's so much between there. But, I'm worried when I when I hear you talk about your the way you're you're advertising, it's not inherently bad. I'm not saying that. But, I'm saying that I think it's self-limiting. Yeah. I think that if if it prevents you from learning more and more and more about how to get people that are further from the finish line in and over the finish line.

And Yeah. or even into the race in the first place, which is where there's bigger scale. call it bad. Let's let's just say that it's I'll say it's bad, sure. Cuz I yeah, cuz I I mean I I I my least favorite thing in all these conversations is like they well, there's different ways to do it. No, there's better and worse ways to do it. It's wrong. There's I mean, there are different ways to do it and some of them are better than others.

And wait, this really important thing that we have to note to the audience. Yeah. Genuinely Yeah. on the grand scheme of what you are doing and what I am doing is not a big gap. That's what I think, too. There are a lot of really bad and really dumb things being done out there. Both by people listening to this right now, I'm so sorry to say, but also like uh like I just see so much bad stuff. And I am I want to be clear, I am not calling what you're doing bad at all.

But, we would agree if we were to look at the accounts that I think are bad, you would be like that's we would agree on the stuff that's genuinely bad. So, this is not I I think that's I think that's probably true. I Yeah, I think Yeah, there's Yeah, but but my heuristic for that is basically the more that the more that I tinker with targeting of any kind, the worse I'm likely to make it. But that's I think what we're agreeing.

Yeah. Cuz I really don't want anyone tinkering with targeting. Yeah. only the only thing I just want you to do is just have a thing that does what we're agreeing on, which is target warm and cold, and have a have it capped, right, with a gold cost. But I'm also saying the anything you're new testing new with the goal of getting new customers in, which to me is is is really the key. For sure. For sure. That's where I'm saying have you have both.

And there's overlap, and there's not there's not much you can do about that overlap between those two. I'm saying just let it be. That's Yeah. That's fine. Yeah. But manually setting up those exclusions allows you to be testing and learning in a very different environment than fully broad or only excluding customers. And And that that is where I see the massive gains. And that's I mean, like, someone who just heard this, like, maybe you don't need to take my course now to like learn all that.

There's still a lot more nuance to it. Yeah. Um but that have to set that table in order for people to understand why I focus on the creative I focus on and the messaging I focus on and the methods that I focus on. Because that you'll I tend to find those colder ads are uglier. The The uglier the better. Versus the warmer ads can afford to be and typically are really interesting. That the that ugliness Yeah, that's really interesting.

I the the um the the um I'm going to I'm going to play with this. I think I think I I I'm I'm pretty sure you're still wrong. But uh but I'm I'm going to play with this idea of like trying to launch these. I I really think the manual bid thing solves this problem. I think I think I think that the manual bid essentially tells Meta exactly what to do here, which is like, "Yeah, keep expanding as long as as long as there are people to reach incrementally at that cost." But um And I I think it does so exactly well that you're talking about, but I think it does so in a way that actually inhibits true scale of a business, of a real B business.

Uh that's Okay, what you're doing is good. Yeah. I'm saying it can be improved. Yeah. Um yeah, okay. Um I'm going to I'm going to play with I have I have an account that I'm going to play with this for. Um yeah, cuz I'm I'm I'm curious to see if there's any distinction in the kind of creative that it'll run. Um Barry, I have I'm out of time. Um All right. You didn't talk about creative at all. I know. People should go buy I I man, I really hope people find this valuable.

This is such a good chat. It was fun. We have we we've been we've been meaning to have this chat for a long time, too. So, um we um you should go follow up with Barry's course. I'll Here's the very quick version of this of the the ugly ads pitch for me um and of the of the thing that I see here, which is uh essentially that whatever else um whatever else you make of the even the phrase make ugly ads, I think the notion that by running ads that are more um the little phrase I always use is socially native to the platform is um running those ads uh reduces initial drop-off from people scrolling their feeds.

That it's just that little bit of attention. And the thing is, Meta ads are are an attention machine, right? The whole idea is like get engagement, engagement predicts conversion. And and there's that's a not always cuz there's Of course, it's an oversimplification. okay, yeah. Okay, yeah. 100%. That's an over That that could lead someone towards pure clickbait and that is not that is not the answer. Okay. Um but but assuming you're not doing that, that uh that that that is generally a a a worthy heuristic.

If that's the case, um I found this to be a really helpful principle and what has really freed me to do to think in those terms has been to make a lot of ads fast and test a lot of messages really fast and cheap. Um and and to do that and I and sort of the place where I'm putting my mental energy is towards like thinking of more formats. So, actually, what if we had more time what That's what my course is about. That's what my course is about is giving you an endless supply of that.

Literally endless. That's what that is and that is the thing that if we had more time I'd be asking you about is essentially like what are the what are the formats I'm not thinking about? What are the styles I'm not thinking about that would allow me to go down this road? So, maybe I'll take your course. about that topic and about how to There's not an answer to that like broadly. There are some things broadly I could say like oh, you know, this this one style this but in reality, it's more niche specific.

And that's what the course is about is how to find that for your audience and audiences and how to make relevant stuff to them both broadly and somewhat specifically. But like Yep. that's what we really talk about. Yep, great. All right, man. Um thanks so much for coming. Go with the the link uh for Barry's course is in the show notes in the description if you're watching it on YouTube. Um and uh go follow up with him.

Follow uh Barry everywhere that you can follow him and all that stuff is there. Thanks, man. Thank you. This is awesome.