What Smart Brands Are Doing About Tariffs (And You Should Too) transcript

Emergency tariff podcast with the best supply chain person that I know, Laura Govara from More Staffing Move Supply Chain. Lara is like literally the best supply chain thinker I have worked with. She has been building and optimizing supply chains all over the world for a whole bunch of years in e-commerce specifically. She has seen your kind of business before. She knows what your supply chain looks like. She built my supply chain for my brand personally and it is affected by tariffs in China and we're going to talk about that as well.

I've got a bunch of really good stuff on this episode. We're going to talk about sourcing in Vietnam, including an incredible opportunity right now to go source in Vietnam. We're going to talk about other countries to look to for sourcing, how to get around all of this stuff. What are the advantages and disadvantages? What should you do about tariffs in your e-commerce supply chain? We're going to get into all of it.

Right now, I have to tell you, I'm legally obligated to tell you this is technically a sponsored episode, but this is not even the reason I had Lara on. I had Lara on because she's the best supply chain thinker I know, and tariffs are making the world go crazy. So, we're going to talk about her work as a supply chain uh expert working with brands. And that's the point. You're going to get value out of this episode. Don't turn it off cuz I said sponsored.

Let's jump into it with Laura Gavara. I don't know why I didn't call you the moment the tariff news dropped. Like, like the moment we started talking about this and it was like, wait, we should do a podcast about this. I thought I am an idiot. Like, why didn't I why didn't I immediately get on the you you contacted me before I contacted you because I you wanted some help on my side. Anyway, I'm glad you're here because you know something about this.

I don't really. I I think Andrew, it was the shock from your from from your end. Yeah. Yeah. You're in the Philippines, so you felt this probably a little differently than I did. I'm sure you guys felt it too. Yes, definitely. Definitely in all our businesses and and just because Philippines is very connected to United States as you know it. We are we are definitely an ally and that's whatever happens in the US, Philippines is always affected.

Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. I mean, I actually was not going to record a podcast about uh tariff stuff because I thought like I didn't have enough perspective of what to really do about it. Um it's not cuz I was avoiding it. And then when we started talking, I was like, wait, I do have some ideas. And then you started coming with ideas that I think are going to be really helpful. And I think a good place to start here is that this is not the first time you've seen tariffs affect supply chains. been working on supply chains for e-commerce brands for like how long?

Like more than six years now for e-commerce, but total supply chain 15 years. Yes. Yeah. Right. Okay. So, you've been in in the game for a while and you mentioned to me that like in 2019 there was a wave of tariffs and you guys had to navigate that then. Can you just talk about what you saw then? Yes. I don't I don't even remember that. I was not on that side of the business then really. It's very interesting because that was my first year in e-commerce.

I I was like doing supply chain for um for for traditional companies, multinational companies here in the Philippines. And that was the year that I transitioned to being remote supply chain. And that was the first challenge I've got. It was uh they actually it's actually the same um theme wherein 7.5 to 25% of tariff was imposed and it's actually called um section 31. Um so it's a huge jump because it's an additional 25% or or 7.5% to your usual um paid tariff.

So it's it's a huge jump and then um it's a lot of um at that time it's not yet like the first step that we've done is not yet really diversify or get from another source. It's more of really also making our cogs um min minimum minimum effect um doing a lot of projects in terms of unit cost, freight forwarding, warehousing, working together with our um Chinese vendors to help us with the cost. It's actually have been a technique or a strategy for like six years ago or 7 years ago.

Um and then a year after it was actually the surprise of pandemic wherein um you know the Chinese New Year is January and it's a very long period and then pandemic happens in February. It was like a straight after vacation they did not come back. So those were the two major supply chain disruptions I've seen few years ago. Um that is kind of similar to what we're experiencing right now. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting because when you say that in in, you know, 7 and a half to 25% or whatever those were, it sounds like your solution to that problem was work with your vendors to try to shave costs in some strategic areas to see if you could sort of claw that number back.

Um, you know, as opposed to what you're dealing with now where you're hearing like 150% or whatever and it's like, well, that just makes China unviable like, you know, um, and and it's this fascinating thing, right? Because at the moment of recording this, and it's all changing so fast that by the time this releases in a few days, who knows what it will be like, but at the moment recording this, a whole bunch of tariffs have been reduced.

Maybe China has been reduced some. I don't I I saw some news about this. I'm confused about it now. But um it doesn't even matter what I say right now because by the time we release and this what we talk about for the rest of this episode, I want actually to sort of be helpful no matter what happens because it's changing so fast that like it's just going to be crazy. But at the time of doing this, you know, this idea where you've got tariffs in China that are really monstrous versus um versus not in other countries, it opens up this thing of like can you source somewhere else?

So like you are you built the supply chain for my brand like alongside your team at move supply chain um that I'm working on now. I have not announced what that brand exactly is, but here's what I will say publicly about it. The packaging is more expensive than the product and the packaging is being made in China. Um, so the packaging is actually where the bulk of the costs are. And so for us, it it has definitely immediately slowed me down.

I thought like should I raise the price? Should I do all these things? But like as I look at this, the sort of whole model that I'm looking at from the level of unit economics, I'm already going into this thinking like we're going to have a really lean opex. We're going to like, you know, build our advertising on um, you know, really profit focused, really contribution margin focused. All that stuff was kind of already dialed for me in terms of how we're doing this, but it became no longer viable to make this happen.

Like I I have my unit economics calculator pulled up. My cost of goods was going to be about 11%. Uh the packaging the packaging alone was going to be 11% of the revenue, right? So just the packaging was going to eat up uh over 11%. So I you know before I even put a product in it. Now um if that number goes to 25% or 22% or something like that I mean the whole thing essentially breaks the whole the whole business breaks to some degree.

Um so what immediately your team came to me with was was uh well let's start looking at Vietnam. Vietnam can do similar things uh with what they can do. I don't know if they can do it quite there. Let's talk about Vietnam specifically for a little bit. Um and there's a couple reasons to do that. One of them is that it's generally viable. There's a growing manufacturing sector. And then secondly, you're going to be there like in a week.

And so I think I'm really interested to hear what you're expecting when you get there. Um, one thing I'll say up front that I've loved about working with you is like you went to Canton Fair um in China. That was like what, an hour and a half flight from the Philippines or something like that? Maybe two. Yes, that's right. Yeah. Vietnam. What is it? What is it to Vietnam? Around that number, right? Yeah. And super easy for you to get in and out of Vietnam.

Isn't that right? That's right. Even even no visa. China has visa but easy to apply. Vietnam, we don't have to apply for a visa. So we can really come in and go. Yeah. So it's like a real advantage for you to be in the Philippines to go check this kind of stuff out firsthand, get in person with vendors. Um so okay, so that's a lot of context, but you you know your team is immediately going to explore Vietnam for my brand.

Um like let's talk about what's possible there. So, is is Vietnam like a viable alternative for brands if they're going to start shopping their supply chain? Actually, Vietnam is the your second option in in in Southeast Asia or even in Asia. Um, aside from China, it's it's the the trade between China and Vietnam is is great. And I've told you um before that even though the final production is happening somewhere else even here in the Philippines, Vietnam, Thailand, Bangladesh, Pakistan, majority of the raw materials are still still coming from China.

So um we we might get the finished goods away from China, but the production will still be depending on China for the raw materials. Vietnam for example has its own resources, textiles, um chips, but definitely not 100% coming from from Vietnam. So a lot of um Vietnam like Philippines if if you if you can recall probably uh more than 10 to 15 years ago we were we were the production of production of of Nike and major brands because um yes that's right we have a major production here in the Philippines wherein major brands are produced here.

Um what happened is that our manufacturing um got like because of the tariff as well of our government we have to stop it and we can't we can't compete anymore. But Vietnam's government remained to be um supportive in that uh production. If you actually have a business in Vietnam or a manufacturing in Vietnam, you'll get a benefit from from the government. And that's that's a good one. That's why they are they have been in the scene.

China's just really huge that you can't really see Vietnam um in that area, but they've been here for like more than 20 years. Production of shoes, apparel, um even even technology and chips, they've been here. Um so, so definitely machining too, right? In Vietnam. Yes. Yes. CNC machining. Yes. It was fairly new. um probably uh five years uh five years ago. But um the good the good actually a good um fun fact here is a lot of Chinese vendors are actually operating in Vietnam.

They're open not they're not pro they're probably not 100% Vietnam owned but Chinese have been have been really working also to help the tariff since 2019. they diversified their source of I mean their manufacturing plants as well. They are um Chinese um businessmen but they started opening manufacturing plants outside China just to also help with the tariff. So it's a mixture of um of of Vietnam being here being here for many years producing these products.

At the same time they get support from the government and at the same time Chinese vendors can also operate there. Yeah. So okay that's really interesting. I actually remember reading something about some Chinese immigration into I think it was Nigeria actually where there would there was maybe some similar things setting up businesses glo you know sort of global businesses from that sort of were connected to their home in China but maybe with different tariffs and different reach into into you know growing regions of Africa and stuff like that developing regions there um interesting um but the okay so in Vietnam I mean there's this is a really interesting idea like I mean let's say let's say your whole thing gets 20 your whole business gets 20% more expensive moving to Vietnam, right?

That's still a mass I mean or like all of your costs are 20% more expensive. It's still a gigantic win compared to 150% tariff. And so I think that's something that people need to start thinking about as I was sort of thinking about this problem is like if you start sourcing additional manufacturers to start working with potentially and it's obviously it's a huge job but like if you start doing that it can be more expensive than what your old pre-tariff China costs were and still be a win.

But as I understand it actually price is not really the problem in China. You mentioned that Vietnam imports a lot of raw materials from China as well as other countries do the same thing. Bangladesh or whatever introduce a lot of raw materials in China and then do the do um they finish them and they do the actual final um assembly and all that stuff in in um in the in their country. Um but of course that doesn't make the Chinese goods subject to American tariffs because the final assemb but that final actual work is done in those places. it just creates a lead time problem.

Um, that's the way that as as I understand it, as you explained it, but it's not necessarily a cost problem. So, can maybe you can talk about a few of the trade-offs like the cost and benefits of like of Vietnam specifically, and I suspect they'll also apply to other countries, but you can tell me what you think of that. Yeah, definitely. So, China has been our number one source in terms of um great moqs and quick lead time.

They were able to really solve that problem. But um if you if you look at it five years ago theirQs in China is also high lead time is also um long but they were able to quickly really solve the problem and not just so it's not just unit cost. That's why a lot of our our clients or our our DTC brands are dependent on China because they've unlocked everything lead time um maybe not just payment terms but lead time unit cost um and then also the the efficiencies of uh freight forwarding from China to US, China to Australia, China to UK and other European countries.

Um Vietnam for example as a comparison they actually even have a lower labor cost. It's surprising to to know that because we thought that China has been the lowest but Vietnam is even lower that is like accepting the the minimum labor of course they're following the labor laws in in Vietnam their minimum is even lower than the minimum in China. And so unit cost it's actually um even even um cheaper in Vietnam. Their machines and their production is also somehow bigger than Vietnam.

They operate in in like very very very huge factories as compared to sorry just to clarify Vietnam's is bigger than China's. Their factories are usually bigger because when China Yes. when when China's um when China started supporting smaller businesses, they actually started renting rooms and operate in a small room. That's when we visited China before um we actually saw how how how they took advantage of that small orders.

And so instead of opening like like thousand square foot of of manufacturing plants, they rent rooms. That's why you have a sewing um machines in room one and then it's like a house and then you go onto second floor there's like the packing and then third floor they they were able to uh pass on that savings because they were able to get like a small space for their manufacturing. It's it's very convenient for them. Vietnam for example can is not doing that yet.

That's why theQ is high because they have to really operate using their huge manufacturing facilities and that was the case of China before. So you cannot get like 100 pieces of button-downs or hoodies from from Vietnam. Definitely going to be to be a challenge. I haven't been successful getting that in Vietnam. But if I have the capacity to order 500 pieces and up, then that where where's the benefit will definitely be realized from from Vietnam because they can accommodate the moq um for for that specific order.

And so they are bigger. They're also like like a three shift type of factory, morning, mid, and evening shift. So it's it's actually um like the usual operating factory. One thing to consider as well um on top of the MOQ is the lead time which also China has an advantage on because China can now produce 30 days um including raw materials um uh buying for for themselves. But for Vietnam, if they are relying to other Asian countries like India or Bangladesh and China for for the raw materials, they have to like add like 15 days for that ordering unless unless we um fix it with them and we store the raw materials um in their factory but otherwise we we get like 15 days more because of that materials ordering raw materials ordering from other countries.

So with our clients ordering products from Vietnam or even my first actually my first uh my first e-commerce client is is an outdoor company a hammock company using produced in Vietnam. We we are good or we are okay with those highQ and um lead time because we were able to like forecast and keep six months worth of of our products. So definitely if your inventory planning and demand forecasting can support your um lead time that is 15 days longer, you'll have uh a lot of benefit going in for for Vietnam.

It's interesting. So what about So you think the unit cost in Vietnam it how does how do you think it generally compares to China? So without tariff? Well, yeah. So yeah, let's say before before you talk about the tariff. Yeah. Yes. Yes. They're they're even cheaper um unit cost in in Vietnam. They will just have to be longer lead time and probablyQ is higher. That's why but you also Yeah. What what about financing the inventory?

Because if you have to buy a bunch more I don't I mean we could talk about sort of US-based debt to do that but what about actually the in what the the terms that you get from the factory? Is there any advantage there in Vietnam compared to China? Yes, Vietnam gives terms like here in the Philippines, Vietnam, Thailand for example, they the minimum is net 30 which you don't usually get from China in China. Um net 30 relative to as soon as it upon receipt.

Yes. Upon receipt. Okay. Upon receipt. I mean that's a big re that's really that's a big deal. Um I'm sorry to cut you off. Did you want to say more about that? No. I I just I just wanted to say that um they have they have been doing that practice for a very long time and they just didn't stop doing it. It's it's net 30 sometimes net 60 depending on the relationship and the long like how long was the relationship but definitely payment terms wasn't really an issue with um with Vietnam.

So if you actually compare it, it's the unit cost and the payment terms that's the advantage in Vietnam. while China has advantage on the time and andQ. So depending on what kind of products you're selling right now and how many pieces you order per SKUs that's that's the that we have to understand those um information first before we can identify is directly diversifying is a is the first step for you or we really have to do everything first to lower down your COGS in China before we even go to Vietnam because it's not going to be like like I I'm not sure how long can we source for company or manufacturing that can support like 100 pieces of items.

What do you think about uh quality relative to China for Vietnam? the actual definitely definitely for me definitely higher um in Vietnam if if you what I've observed Andrew the higher level product that is being sold in the US they are manufactured in Vietnam because when I when I was starting to to learn about this like why like I haven't been really um like six years ago before 6 years ago I don't have experience working with Vietnam factories and what I've observed 2019 onwards is why are the like a higher level higher quality type of brands from from from the uh selling they're selling in the US is usually made in Vietnam and that is actually true until until today I have a lot of clients um that that I know that has products in Vietnam and they are usually the 100 plus um to 200 $100 plus dollars per unit cost type of product and they were able to keep that high quality from Vietnam and based on my experience in in 2019 like it's actually the same.

We we we have like we have a vendor in Korea and that's our first it became too expensive. It's the hammock one and then our first option is to source diversify. We've um we've sourced from China, Vietnam and and the the quality in Vietnam was at par higher than than China um six years ago. So definitely um a lot of quality checks and third party is also very um like not not an option like non-negotiable for for Vietnam vendors as well.

So they were actually first in in doing quality, then China followed. Really interesting. I mean, I just really didn't realize all that. I mean, so such an instinct for everyone to order in China that it's an interesting set of trade-offs. I I mean, the way part of the way I would think about that is like longer lead time and higherQ make it much harder to be cash efficient in a lot of it, right? Because you create forecasting risk and then you you have to outlay a whole bunch of cash.

But if you think about this problem, it's just a bunch of trade-offs. It's just like, you know, do you which is more valuable to you at a business at whatever business stage you're in, you know, is it is it the inventory turn or not? And if you if you think about not not that these are the only options, but if you think about um you know being able to potentially maybe you have to order a whole bunch more stuff, but if you get it cheaper and then you add the tariff part and it becomes a no-brainer, right?

It becomes like well look, we're just going to have to deal with stocking six months of inventory and finding a way to financing it if we didn't even if we didn't want to just because we we can't afford to pay 150% tariffs or whatever that number is in China right now, you know. Uh, and so you just start to you just start to, you know, kind of have to take that trade. But it's actually interesting to think about it even outside the tariff environment a little bit of like sort of how this might work out for brands because if you're talking about higher quality, lower cost per unit and better financing from the factory.

So let's say you get it net 30 on receipt. Now let's say I have to go finance that with somebody like settle or something like that, you know, some sort of or even a bank or something. If I go do that, I actually only have to fi I have to finance a month and a half less or whatever. Uh, you know, maybe even two months less depending on the the timeline of that inventory relative to what I would get from China, right?

Because if I have to pay, you know, 50% down or, you know, whatever 50% when it when it goes out from the China from from the Chinese factory or, you know, even 3070 like some some Chinese whatever uh some Chinese factories will do. Now I got now I have like relative to net 30 upon receipt that's like probably a couple extra months. um where where that I have to figure out a way to finance if I'm ordering from China which effectively raises the cost etc.

So it's just it's just a bunch of trade-offs there like I said and I I think it's interesting to think about are there um it's actually a bunch of tradeoffs and actually there are still solutions to that. So not all companies or not all DTC brands can keep six four to 6 months worth of products. Definitely what's happening what you can do in Vietnam that you cannot do in China is you or you use a blanket PO. So you order 2,000 pieces for example that 2,000 pieces is for for the whole year and then you and then the Vietnam vendor will then uh order raw materials worth uh 2,000 pieces but the production is staggered.

So that's something that Vietnam factories can do that China cannot do right now. If if you order a PO in in majority of the vendors in China, you have to like produce it right away. So if you have a 2,000 pieces of orders in Vietnam, you can ask them to produce 500 500 500. So So it's not just keeping 6 months worth. It's making your inventory uh planning tighter that you're ordering just in time that you're not you're you're you're not ordering too much but you know exactly where it should arrive in the US so that so just you're not out of stock.

So it's really as like the smartest way to um combat um not being able to order a lot of pieces is to make it just in time. make it adjusting time uh type of inventory planning. You keep the raw materials there. You pay for like a deposit um in that open PO and then you instruct your your manufacturing to order or to produce like 500 at a time and then it arrives in like um like in interval of 1 month for example. It will depend on the inventory uh forecasting that you you have.

We have to make sure that we are we are producing a little bit of of the from the PO and being delivered in in like one two weeks interval or one month interval. So your goods are actually being delivered as it is produced and then you keep receiving it like smaller quantity at a time and not like 2,000 right away which which is the case in China. So those two things can be can be done just to just to help with a cash flow um situation if if ordering too much ordering a lot is not an option.

I have a lot of other questions about this actually. I'm really interested to talk more. There's a lot of stuff to get to in this call. So in this this podcast so um so I want to be sensitive to that as well for people who are listening. Sting's still on the agenda. I've got some questions directly asked by some folks about sort of how to work through some of this we're going to get to. I want to talk about some broader business implications of this current moment that I see here.

Um and I also want to talk about um other countries besides Vietnam. So those are all coming in a little bit. Um but right now um I do want you to talk about this. This is like incredible fortuitous timing here. Um like uh one thing I'm actually curious about with Vietnam is if they're if they're going to sort of bend on any of those because if I'm in Vietnam and I'm owning owning if I own a factory right now, I am watching this moment in USChina relations going being opportunistic and I'm going to find any way to grab a bunch of American business that I possibly can right now.

And if that means lowering some then so be it. Now that also implies that you would be getting a smaller business if you're Vietnam. And I bet they were especially going to bend over backwards if you're a little bit larger right now. If you're a little bit larger and can and provide a larger PO to them, then I think probably, you know, just just generally the way business works in the world, I'm assuming now's the time to really go explore this because I bet you will never get a better deal than by going right now because it's such an important moment for Vietnam to get your business in a way that they probably wouldn't before.

I'm just I would just assume that that's the way that's going to be. But you don't have to assume because you are going to be in Vietnam like very soon. Um, so this is interesting. The Canton Fair is a thing I think of and if and you introduced me to this I didn't know it existed before but um it's essentially right like a a giant trade show for factories for different people to come and sort of check out factories right that's what I understand Canton fair to be in Canton and China um right so Vietnam though has their own version of this and it's like in a couple weeks uh which again fortuitous timing relative to these tariffs can you talk about what that is why it's advantage why there's an advantage like for you to be there and why like essentially why it is helpful to have you go and represent the brand at that fair at that trade show and and that yeah sort of like what it is why it's helpful for you to be there and what you can sort of expect and what people can expect if they're able to tap into that right now.

Yeah, definitely. The the first difference is that Canton Fair is solely supporting um China vendors while global sourcing fair in Vietnam caters to other Asian countries as well. Yeah. So it's like that's why that's why it's global sourcing fair. They have participants from even even in um China, Hong Kong, Taiwan, India, Bangladesh and South Korea because those were the strongest um manufacturing in in Asia. So um the global sourcing fair is actually uh it's actually organized and being done um by global sources which happens not only in Vietnam but other countries as well.

It's a trade show in Ho Chi Min City. Um and and it will be on April 24 to 26. So it's shorter as well as compared to Candon Fair wherein Canton fair has three phases like a total of 1 month fair. This is like 3 days but the focus is sourcing in fashion or apparel accessories um home products gift products electronics and home appliances um from Vietnam from Vietnamese and Asian manufacturers. So, it's a lot like a lot less type of categories, but it can definitely um cater to a lot of DTC um products as well.

And then um it's it's actually uh they have aside from from the fair, they have like um different events, different um networking events during that time, meeting vendors from not just again Vietnam, but also other countries. And so addition to the fair, they have like business matching, fashion parades and industry seminars that makes it um a little bit more interactive than Canton fair. But the most like my most the number one goal that I have there when I go there is not just to meet vendors in Vietnam and other countries but also to be able to um explore the opportunity if they are also willing to um receive visitors in their factory just like how open China is because we we wanted to understand we know that Vietnam has been there at the back of China but we want to understand what's your real potential what what are you not showing us yet that we can definitely unlock right now given the situation?

I think they're just this is the perfect timing to learn more about their manufacturing. We already know their advantages and where are the disadvantages? Of course, there there are disadvantages, but how quickly can we help you lower down yourQ? How quickly can we help you um improve your lead times? because again it's supply chain is interconnected. If we help them source their raw materials and if we're good at that then we're already solving half of their problem.

So definitely that's the relationship that I wanted to see and build when when I visit Vietnam. That was something that we've already built in China before. Our team in move supply chain actually been to Vietnam last January. Um I'm I'm there was a very smart um client of ours um that has um initiated this project even before the tariff blew up. But we we we like visited five or six CNC machining in Vietnam before and the experience was like as smooth as what we have experienced in China and that person member who visited Vietnam is the person who also visited uh China with me.

So um that learning um that learnings that we have last January for that visit is definitely like we made the the um made the strategy stronger like it's it's going to be a lot um helpful now because of the situation but definitely we see a lot of potential in Vietnam and I I know that with the proper and right relationship that we can build with them it's going to be as quick as China in terms of adapting. How can they still benefit from from from improving their supply chain?

Yeah. So, I'm going to read two of the questions we got that I think actually hit something that sort of is in the implication of this. I had tweeted about this and said, you know, what questions do you have for for Lara about this? Um, and um and by the way, if you're a Twitter person, Laura's also a great follow on Twitter supplychain Laura. I'll link that in the show notes. Um but yeah um the two questions I I'll read them both.

Okay. Number one question for her. How do you explore an altit supply chain without destroying your current setup and there's so much uncertainty with policy roll backs? Okay. And then secondly, if a brand heavily depends on goods from China, would you advise immediately finding an alternative solution? Those two questions are very similar to one another in terms of their idea here which is like like okay if the answer is to go find an alternative solution let's just talk about like is that actually viable for brands to go and find alternative solution right now is it can you can it happen in any reasonable amount of time by the time you do the sampling process and everything else like um and and and if so is there any risk to your current supply chain in doing this you know like yeah so if a brand wants to talk with you guys and start exploring Vietnam.

Yeah. Is it viable and are there any negative implications for their current setup? Yeah. First of all, before before I directly answer that question, it's always helpful to understand that um what we should be doing even before the disruption starts is that we are already ready for diversification. Meaning I I always always say this to our clients, to everyone. Um, I'm I'm I'm not sure how how how um how much I've been telling about this, but don't wait for disruption.

Always diversify up until an approved sample. So, a lot of our clients or or people that I know, they love working with their vendors and and that's fine, but you have a business to um take good care of. What you have to do is is even without tarif issues or or issues in in your source, you have to have at least one to two alternative vendor that is sample approved and then don't order from that. It's just that it's ready whenever your your existing vendor something happened to your existing vendor not just um tariff not just pandemic but maybe like the fire there there was a fire like those kind of um emergencies.

So first of all, I would still um I would still say that even after this uh even if the lower even even if the tariff gets lower, we wanted an alternative vendor that is sample approved. Um even if we don't order from them but moving to answering the question, actually before you move to the question answers, I actually want to piggyback on that really fast. Um, Taylor Holiday tweeted and said, "Somebody tell me what the bullc case is for tariffs in China at this moment in e-commerce.

Like what is how does this work out for good for people? Like somebody just somebody just do that exercise?" And this was one of the things I said right away and it's something that I think is sort of the most obvious part of this. I continue to have the theory I think this is really important actually. I continue to have the theory that the supply chain of e-commerce brands is still the most underoptimized part of e-commerce.

Part of the reason I have that theory is because of talking to you. Like first of all, I learn so much from you when I talk to you. But secondly, when you've told me about intake calls at move, you have told me that you guys are sometimes like trying to withhold your giggles, not because you're like making fun of them, but because of how easy it's going to be for you to make massive improvements so quickly. You just look at it as red meat to you.

That's the way you've described it to me. because because there is so there's just so much lowhanging fruit for brands and this is a perfect example of that. Like the idea that brands right haven't before this moment had some kind of consideration for a backup supply chain not in China is actually a little crazy. And I don't mean to be condescending. There's a lot to do in e-commerce. There's always more to do than you can actually get to.

But it's not news that America's relationship with China and that particularly President Trump and his relationship with China is, you know, this is like this has been talked about for a long time as a real possibility. And I, you know, look, I wasn't savvy enough to be sounding the warning bell on this aggressively, but I like the way you framed it. Whatever happens in this moment with tariffs, even if tomorrow, even if the moment we hit stop on this recording, the news comes through that the whole thing is is rolled back and I was just negotiating strong armed tactic like some of this other stuff, like it's it would still be a it should be a kick in the pants to go and like have a couple backup solutions sorted out so you know what's available because otherwise 150% tariff has a chance to kill your business. like kill your business and so so like having some backup there and that's before you talk about everything else and even the trade-offs we discussed earlier which is like like if it turns out that there's a viable alternative um vendor for you that requires a largerQ that you can maybe get around with blankets larger lead times but it's a higher quality and a lower cost per unit and can get financed that's actually a really hard decision you aside from tariffs you may want to go to Vietnam like and so it just it just feels feels to me like one of the ways that this whole thing ends up being better for brands is that they use it as the opportunity they needed to have actual like redundancies built into their supply chain in a way that they can know I have alternative solutions if I can go get them.

Um because because it just is a really important part of it like I said um I you know I think I think there's more a little more supply chain chatter happening in the e-commerce community now than there had been for a while um and I'm really encouraged by that. I think you've been a voice in that like you know there's people like Mab Bogle's been talking about some of those things and there's some others as well but like I I just think it's I think it's a really important point for people that that that no matter what else happens here they should do what you just said to do which is have a couple backups get all the way through the sampling phase know that there's a button where you can press go the moment that you need it.

Um so I you know anyway that's like one of the things I really wanted to get out in this episode. Uh let's go ahead and go over to the question that you answer that you said. So um is it actually viable to switch now and if so is there any risk to your current supply chain? Yeah. So there are so there's there are two activities that I would strongly recommend um to our listeners to do simultaneously and one is what because it will take time to get an alternative vendor. one is to do it right away like start exploring what countries you have um like like depending on the category or product that you sell what country is the best next option we've talked about Vietnam but there are also um India for pharmaceuticals textiles automotive components um generally around 10% um tariff depending on the category then you have Bangladesh for garments apparel footwear furniture And you have Mexico for for other u machineries and electronics as well.

You have Thailand for automotive parts. Yes, you have um automotive parts in Thailand. Electronics and also textiles. And then in Malaysia you have machinery, chemicals, you have electronics. In Turkey is Turkey is rising to be good in textiles, automotive parts and machineries as well. Um I I would say Philippines for textiles, but it's more of like the specialized type of um textiles here in the Philippines. And then Pakistan again is it's textile, leather, leather goods um and other food industry.

So first is to understand what are your second uh your top three options. Um there are also South American like Colombia having 10% is also a good alternative for apparel. So understand where you wanted to focus on alternative sourcing it. There are a lot of of um options. Uh those are just examples that I've shared but definitely there are more while doing that and and simultaneously working on that. there are like always the lowhanging fruit that we can do right now like like today um working with our vendors and with our supply chain um team members and of course first of first first suggestion that I'll do is while you're already sourcing and looking for for um an alternative vendor you have to really understand your products right now and um like identify which of those is the high margin or your bestselling that you wanted to prioritize because if you have like thousands of SKs, it will be very confusing for everyone in your in your business to find an alternative right away.

Like we have to find that um priority products first before we we do anything and it helps us focus. Not all SKs um get equal attention and I always say that. And then first is and and especially if you're talking about raised demo cues, there's no better time to to start thinking about like, well, maybe we're gonna sunset some SKs, you know, if if you go to Vietnam or something like that, like it it might be a time where that becomes, you know, you call some SKs that are like really not that val valuable for you anyway.

Now, now's the time to be like, well, we're getting rid of those, you know, which which may actually have benefits to your business anyway. So, yeah. By the way, really fast, with all the stuff you're talking about, Lara, before you keep going, do you guys at Move do this for people? Yes. Can you take the lead on this? Yeah. Okay, great. Yes, we actually we actually Yeah. move supplychain.com. Yes. Moveup supplychain.com.

We So, with everything she has said and Yeah. Okay. So, with everything she has said so far and with everything she's about to say, um it it's worth noting here that like go to move supplychain.com, get on a call. Lara and her team are based in the Philippines, which means they're affordable for you. Um and she's and also means she's attracting really really high quality talent. Um because she's not uh because she's not cheap.

She's she's she's not exploiting people. She's paying them good good money in in the Philippines which attracts really good quality talent with deep resumes and at the same time um is much more uh price efficient for you. Uh so yeah. Okay. So keep going. Sorry. Yeah. So so aside from prioritizing the SKS um the next next easiest step is to renegotiate with your existing suppliers first. You might be surprised how they can support you.

So they might or they might not depending on their business um situation as well. But a lot of um my experience is that when you really even go there uh if if you have time and if you have um if if you really focus on doing this, it's going to really help if you meet your vendor in person or you you send someone from your team to do it because I've seen a lot of um um good outcomes based on visiting your vendors in China.

So that first is renegotiating with them, understanding how can they help you with the unit cost. Maybe they can slash out like um two um dollars in your unit cost. That's going to be a huge help. And now what what what I'm trying to say it's a combination of different projects happening at the same time like really getting all those savings from different parts of your supply chain while you're waiting for an alternative supplier.

So next is really getting um freight and fulfillment savings. So we have different kinds of freight forwarding um internationally. You have fast boat, you have slow boat. Um it's a lot of like it's vias but different prices depending on the stops that it does or it depends on the lead time or the the number of days that it um it travels. But definitely if you can like if you can place your order um earlier and you can use the cheapest possible option, the slow boat which takes 30 to 45 days as compared to the fast boat that takes 20 days to 25 days, then you can definitely save on like a dollar uh a dollar and $1.5 um dollars per per kg of of DDP price.

And then another option is um um to review your landed cost um in general because you also have like um warehousing and packaging and shipping. Um a lot of what we're doing to our clients right now in move supply chain is that we are optimizing their packaging. We are now they have started to do that project wherein they don't just allow their vendors to use whatever packaging they have in their factory but we're now really computing what is the right size of our master carton so that it's optimized in pallet palletizing and in in shipments.

So those are the the early projects that you can do in in warehousing and at the same time you have a partner 3PL in the United States usually if your if your 3PL is in is in the US there are also a lot of um projects that you can do with them um like like how if you can just increase the stacking height from 6 to 10 because your products are not uh fragile and all that is like saving a half of of your pallet cost because you usually in in the warehouses you pay by the pallet.

So it's like small like that small project in in warehouse can definitely save you um a lot of monies as well. And again all those like small savings if you compute in total definitely will have a huge impact while you're waiting for your alternative in other countries. If if if that will take um the fastest that I've done it is a month and a half which is actually the technique and strategy that we've Yes. A strategy that we've done with your brand and other brands is what happens is we we had a pre-sourcing for a month.

We had a pre-sourcing for a month. the deployed sourcing experts that all they do during that month is like just sourcing and then when they have shortlisted vendors we go meet audit negotiate right away in person. It's the it's the quickest possible time and even before we went there um there are already samples awaiting awaiting um our our checking. So it's it's really quick. The usual um the quickest NPD usually is three months, Andrew.

So if if if to answer the question um that was raised, it is usually 3 months, but we can lower it to 30 to 45 days of um um sourcing. And while that's happening in the 30 to 45 days that you're you're again sourcing for alternative your team in supply chain can already start doing the projects that I've mentioned get that savings and then um if we get a viable uh vendor in in one and a half months then we can definitely slowly transition.

It's always making sure that we're not disrupted because I think it's also asked in in your in in the tweet wherein uh how would you advise immediately finding an alternative solution? You can definitely find it quicker with our strategy of pre-sourcing and going there. That's a that will slash half of the lead time. But again, we have to identify which product should be done there first. What is the priority product? what's your top selling best best um profit that you have type of product and we we go there first we continue ordering from your existing vendors until such time that we are 100% confident that we can replace it um we can replace it 100% because it's not going to be helpful if um if we disrupt the the production in in your current vendors right now.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's really helpful. Is um is there anything that you just said that you think um shouldn't be done can't be done even if the tariffs go away? Like or is everything you said just like the stuff that you should be doing anyway? Th that is definitely the the the supply chain best practices that we should be doing even without the tariff issues. It's and and again I've seen clients do this before um even without the tariff issue.

So they've been really um they they've they've they were ahead of the the situation and they were successfully they have successfully transitioned to Vietnam from China um in two weeks. And actually, I'm very excited for that because I emailed him like I I heard he heard us from your podcast. Um, and then we we did that project and I told him, I admire what you've done. You're you're one of the vendors uh what clients that we've partnered with with that did the job that I said to do and believed um in in really transitioning and now now look where you're where you are right now. you're in Viet and it's it's a very expensive product.

So, I asked him for for a podcast interview and he agreed. I just I just read it earlier and I'm so happy that I will have that conversation with an actual client um as well. Um definitely something that you can hear directly from from a DTC owner and what what he has done even before the tariff situation is actually uh a business ch uh game changer for him in his business because he was able to transition last January to Vietnam from China.

Um that's going to be so happens where where should people go to hear that? Um we have our podcast supply chain moves. I can also give the the link to you um for show interesting. Yeah. Yeah, I'll put it I'll put in there. I think I think I'm going to go on there as well. So, if you want to at some point here, right? So, if you want to hear the reversed version of this where Laura asks me questions, we can do it. Um okay.

Uh yeah, so go check that out as well. Um yeah, the first thing I heard from a client of yours uh about this about talking to you was just like insane numbers. It was like save 30% on our cogs and a dollar on our processing fees on every order of our 3PL and it was just like holy cow. Um so um do you um what was I going to say? Oh, when I hear the stacking height thing that you said, you know, the idea of like of non-fragile stuff that you stack higher, it's such a perfect example of what I mean when I say like supply chains are underoptimized because it's like Yeah.

It's like it's like wait if that was already right there for for brands to be able to do like just go with higher stacking height and they just aren't I mean you just don't know that if you don't know that that's like the way that a warehouse operates and that it it's a real big difference maker because it saves them space they can't put anything else above that you know it's just like it's such a it's such a big it's I don't know it's just that kind of it's a perfect little illustration of this like insightful thing that somebody who knows what they're talking about can if you haven't seen a warehouse how a warehouse works you you It's hard to it's hard to identify projects like not just that the biggest savings you can get is actually the bean type uh the the box type because for apparel for example they open your box and they they stock it in shelves and then they like cut like like that opening and then they open it and like when when there's a like that's at the peak and packing when there's an order they they pick one of those products they they if there are other products that that customer order they will do that.

What happens is a lot of those boxes are left open. Um, and the way that they charge you is based on the open boxes. So, there were like same skews, three different boxes open. And like the the first step there is just to combine all the SKs together like just maintain one box open so that you're charged with one bin. And that that's that's a lot of um if you go to the actual warehouse floor you will be you will you can come up with 10 easy projects right at that moment.

And so again it's like not just really inviting everyone to to go to your warehouse. It's it's you needed to you needed to be there at least once a year for also for like for example uh cycle count or wallto-all count to understand the missing products that you have um that is also killing a lot of businesses is because of the stolen or lost products in warehouses definitely every that that you have a lot of projects in warehouse you have a lot of projects in shipping logistics and definitely with your vendors.

So, combine all of those in the 30 days that some of your talents are sourcing other clients, and then you you'll be surprised how much you can save right away. Yeah. Um, that's really good. Um, let's see. I was going to ask you about other countries that you're looking at, but it looks like we kind of already covered that. You just gave a nice list of those things. Um, one last question from a from somebody on my on that thread.

Any options to get around tariffs from goods in progress due to come out of China within the next month? Do you know of anything? I mean, I can't imagine you know of some secret way around tariff, but maybe maybe you do. Yeah. Actually, I had a conversation with our freight forwarder that I was able to endorse to a lot of our clients. He's he's a very good partner. Um he has he is a freight forwarder at the same time.

Um they have warehouse in in in Guangjo in Shenzen um China. So um we had a call two days ago and I asked I told him like how are you is your business? how's your business doing doing because a lot of a lot of his clients are also in the US and he said that this is interesting and I I I will further um investigate here but there's there's like a way of shipping right now in the DDP uh setup wherein we can um we can help lowering down freight to combat whatever tariff is being done.

So and in the end in the end they will um they will combine and consolidate a lot of so it's a project they will combine and consolidate a lot of orders to to keep doing full container load instead of loose uh loose loads like LCL um and then with that um with that full container load setup you're getting like half of the freight cost that you get but with the increased tariff definitely um you like just probably get get a little bit more impact there.

So that's a that's actually coming from someone who's actually doing the freight forwarding at this point because in in in I think few more weeks before that 100 um plus t um become like if that's going to be a reality then a lot of what a lot of our clients um do with this is has been sending all their stocks right away the quickest possible time like via air. So instead of like computation of cogs, um there's a there's a like an alternative way of doing um instead of sending it via air, it's an alternative way of doing it via C but consolidated with other clients.

So it's it's full container load. It's less it's cheaper um still compared to doing a via air. So that's I think the because we h it's an uncertainty Andrew if this is actually really happening but we cannot just ignore the fact that you have stocks in China seeping in and you the main the main um the number one um strategy that you're thinking is to send it all right away right now via air so that it doesn't it doesn't meet the May 2nd um uh application of tariff But even even via air it's kind of risky because via air right now takes 10 to 12 days and if it gets delayed then it will get hit.

So and you'll pay your cost. That's crazy. Yeah. Yes. So what I would suggest um is to send the right product right now. Um it's like uh I if it's like panic buying or panic panic for freight forwarding or panic shipment is not probably um a good situation right now. It's more of really getting the products that you need getting the stocks that you need right now and doing like a a fast C consolidation FCL. That's the best advice that I can do.

There are a lot of freight forwarders right now who's doing the consolidation. So you're like teaming up with your other DTC business owners in the US to have that consolidated shared full container load for you. Yeah, that makes sense. I I mean what I think is like as a general way of approaching this problem I just think there's short-term long-term which is like short term there becomes this question of like okay maybe maybe for like I I would I would separate this into two buckets right so the the first thing I would think about is like okay do the thing you just said right which is like consider the possibility of trying to get around it with the current orders that are out I think that's a smart strategy that you said don't panic buy all that stuff um I think I think in the short term it's very possible that brands are going to take a big hit here and they're going to have a load of things that are less less um less profitable than they want etc.

They might have to raise some prices. Um you know they may have to do something um where they behave at a higher margin for a little bit. Like one thing I've thought about with one brand I'm working with is just like essentially um take current inventory that they already have and um and and try to stretch it further by just like growing a little slower and take more margin on first purchase. Nearly every brand that I can think of that's importing from China is making a decision about what kind of contribution margin they take in their ad account that usually has something to do with growth.

Now, sometimes there's cash needs for the rest of the business and for payments, and I get that. And so, you have to keep a certain volume going. But if you can at all, um maybe now is the time to slow your spend down, take a little more profit, try to stretch your current inventory a little bit further, and see if you can push out rebying any inventory for further for farther. Like essentially, just try and see if you can behave that way.

I've got one brand that's actually been able to do that so far. Um and and where we've actually generated sort of an increased CM. it's not the topline growth is not going to look that great. You know, year-over-year it might be negative or whatever, but they're actually going to be fine profit-wise. It's not going to be an existential threat to their business or anything like that. So, and and I think like that's kind of part of the way I would think about some of these things, like where's your current inventory position?

How should you think about your ad buying relative to that inventory position? What's on the way? What's in in order? What can you sort of put a stop to and and sort of try to trade off some of those games? So, there's this short-term consideration that includes a whole bunch of factors like that. Um and then and then to kind of go down the route with some of the strategies you just mentioned. Um but but I would just also say like long term my real hope in this moment is that it helps businesses think more efficiently about their businesses.

We just tal we talked about one of them a second ago with the issue of thinking about like building out a supply chain that's more um or that's less fragile that has backups built in. We talked about that idea doing all the things you talked about a second ago um you know rel to warehousing and and all that like all that stuff is good. I also just think um I also just think there's a thing here where it's like you know um like on the ad buying side since I just mentioned it.

I think this is where this is where like I hammer ideas for people about like you've got to stop allowing there to be unprofitable ad spend in your ad account just because like you you need to behave in a way where that where the profitability of the of the dollars that you that you put out is high. And so, like, you know, you know, my hobby horse of creative testing campaigns and ad accounts is something I talk about a lot, but it's like it just makes no sense to me that you just sort of allow someone to go and spend a bunch of money at a loss that doesn't have that that for no apparent reason that I can that I can think of that sort of not, you know, meaningfully helping your ad account like or or or not running on manual bids because, you know, if you have some whatever like go and assume there's some price at which a customer is no longer profitable to you and to you and Stop spending bad dollars throwing them around on all kinds of stuff like get efficient and focused and care about the profit that your that your dollars are driving and and make sure that matters to you a lot.

The other one that I would say is opex. Um it this actually blew my mind. Um I I am so bullish on e-commerce even in this present moment because I believe that there are ways in to build larger for a lot of reasons but there are ways to build larger businesses more efficiently on leaner opex all the time and um and this is one of those moments where like when I think about um final loop final loop put out a stat saying that their median user has an opex of 19%. opex as a so the percentage of revenue their fixed costs software people rent all that stuff is 19%.

That is too freaking high. It is too high for most businesses. that number has like you should be targeting 15 and I bet with AI and by like working with you guys you know working with people like you Laura who are offshored where it's like you you know I can get access to the best talent that I've ever worked with at a again a lower price than I can get the talent in the US between offshoring and AI for a US-based business it just makes no sense for that number to be that high and the thing is if I do the math and I say like the gap between 15 points of of my P&L being eaten up with by opx versus 19 points.

That's actually like that four point gap. Those four four percentage points on my P&L of cost are extremely like that's a lot of the difference in COGS for a lot of these brands that get with tariffs. Like you can claw that back right away just by being relentless about this. I did an interview with Ben Perkins from an Coller recently. Great conversation. Go check that out. It was like uh a week or two ago that I released this episode where he talked about how like when they were, you know, getting killed with huge debt payments in their business and they they absolutely had to shave their opex or or they were going to die.

He did this thing where he gave every one of his employees a P&L and said this is the numbers you need to hit um to be part of this basically you know and essentially each one has an individualized P&L for their profitability in the business because an employee is supposed to drive profit somehow in your business. said it was harder with some, easier with others. He said it certainly created a resentment with some employees, but most of the employees with whom it created resentment.

He offered them a generous package. Said we'll you know give you three months severance or whatever like u most of those left. He said he his team got cut in half. And guess what? He didn't really lose any money revenue-wise. Not because even necessarily those people were bad or whatever because he had just overhired or something like that. and and so by tracking that kind of thing, you know, um he he loaded up his software, all that kind of stuff, like this is the kind of moment that helps people get clear about that.

And I just think there's this way in which brands ought to do that. It's part of the reason I love talking to you about this so much, Laura, is like, you know, I I'm not trying to pay as little money as possible in the Philippines. That's not the way I think about it. I don't think about it as like how do I go as cheap as possible with my team, but I am committed to building my team there. What I'm committed to is like like my Philippine Philippines employees in my business are incredible.

Like they're they're great employees. So I'm trying to figure out all the time how do we pay them more? How do we get more of them? And how do I expect more of them in a way that like people are getting paid great relative to local possibilities? And they love to work with me and it's a great environment that's going to attract the best talent in my business. And I'm going to do all of that while maintaining my margin and serving my customers at the agency business.

And I would do the same thing if I was serving my customers at the ecom business in this way, right? because you have a staffing agency as well, not just the supply chain agency. More staffing. You guys have sponsor my podcast for a long time. So, I you know, this is a little bit of a rant, but I'm just I'm just looking at the total business possibilities in this tariff moment and saying like if you can actually use this as a moment to build redundancies in your supply chain, get serious serious serious about running a lean opex and get serious about the profitability of your ad spend that that actually like you can actually come out of this in an okay spot.

And um and if it means going to Vietnam or not, like you you know, there's there's different things for different brands like but but yeah, I think I think there's ways to do this um in a way that will actually make sense for businesses and they'll they'll end up being okay. I don't know if you want to react to any of that. I know some of that's a little bit outside your normal stuff, but but yeah. Yeah, actually it's it's the the key takeaway u for me in what you've shared is it's a learning like right now it's like a huge learning for for for our e-commerce community wherein it this this is already the third major situation that we've experienced in the past five six years and so resilient supply chain is what I always say um do not wait for for the next big hit again before we do something like making our opex leaner or making our supply chain tighter and and doing so many projects at the same time.

Do it while it's not yet happening and it will save your business during this um difficult times. definitely will make it stronger. And I think um what what we're seeing in in more staffing right now um as as we observe what's happening is um we're getting more like a higher of of like a part-time which we definitely can support because we're not just hiring full-time, we're also hiring part-time team members. And I think people are getting smarter, clients are getting smarter in making sure that they they will only like commit to like 20 hours of for example financial services or 20 hours of um design services and definitely that's something that we've seen um we've seen the past few weeks and definitely supportable in supply chain side.

There are a lot of optimization that we have to do with or without tariff and that's something that we should start right now um as soon as possible so that it can it can make our um supply chain stronger. Yeah, agree completely. Um okay, so people should follow up with you on the supply chain side at movesupply chain.com. You can schedule time with Laura and her team there. She's going to be in Vietnam very soon. If you want her to represent your brand there, look for the right opportunities there. you should get on the call with her right now.

Um, again, uh, I am literally having that conversation with her about my brand. So, I I'm I'm abs I'm quite literally putting my money where my mouth is on this, right? This is not just like a spot. This is Laura, I've joked about this with other people, but like we have a very funny relationship where like literally everything I touch is is working with all three of the agencies that you help lead uh on on your side of things.

So, I'm paying you in three places and then you guys also sponsor my podcast. Like I it's like it's this insane interconnected thing, you know. So anyway, it's not it's not just sponsorship. It's real. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's great. Yeah. So move supply chain. What did you want to say about that? We're actually we're actually going to China as well. Like the more the more that we needed to go to China because we've been invited to many factories right now and I think it's them trying to understand the situation.

They of course they're they're very fearful of losing the clients. that's that's their goal and if your client is really like has a good relationship with you definitely you get a support and at the same time um we we will be there because a lot of our clients right now has um has taken the um China or Vietnam visit package that we've offered in M supply chain just to make sure that we can negotiate whatever we can in person in Vietnam and in China so that the result is as quick as possible.

So I I'll be doing a lot more content about that soon. So um I'll be more working more on Twitter and and podcast so that um we can help you identify or we can help you we can share whatever is the learning of that trip to China and Vietnam um soon. Great. And people can also go to morstaffing.co um in that case uh if they want to talk to you about like a full-time or part-time team member. There probably are some brands, I suspect, that should actually be considering hiring like a like a supply chain manager in a more full-time basis to take on some of this stuff, right?

That's right. Um, and you guys, I know, have a lot of experience staffing those folks. That's the world you came from. So, um, yeah, I've staffed graphic designers, video editors, um, uh, with you guys. I'm currently I have two job descriptions out with you guys right now for, um, accounting and for, uh, postprouction for this podcast. Yeah. So, um, so yeah. So, I'm again, I'm doing it everywhere. I I like I've said to some other people for the brand that I'm building right now um you know on the lean opex side um uh at some point I will actually announce and talk through what it is but um you know I'm planning on I'm planning on for as long as possible my partner and I in the business being the only US-based employees like we we're planning to build the entire team in the Philippines every single time I have ever expected more of my Philippines-based team members um they have reached or exceeded it and I have and I remind myself that I'm not expecting enough and And it's it's not not in a way of like pushing them harder, driving them harder, but just like it's just I still am just in somewhere in my mind and thinking like, oh, like I don't know, they I don't know.

It's stupid. It's it's like a dumb thing. And every time I do it, it's like people are just even better and smarter than I realize. So, um, anyway, it's, uh, it's it's been a great setup for me. So, go check us out. Supplychain.com. Staffing.co. Both of those links are in the show notes. Laura, thanks for your time for an emergency podcast for your help. I appreciate it so much. Bye. Yes. I hope um we we we're um smarter after this um challenge that we're facing right now.

Definitely. Yeah. [Music]