Should We Add Services Or Go Deeper? Patrick's & My Mid-Year Review transcript

Patrick Kadoo, my business partner and COO at AF Growth is back for our monthly episode. Today we're going to talk about how AJF Growth is doing and are should we add services? We have more demand than we can service. We have clients doing really well. We're excited about where the business is at, but we're asking these questions all the time like should we add a more robust like I Patrick doesn't even know I'm going to ask him this, but I'm going to ask him in just a minute.

Should we add a Tik Tok shop service? Should we add a a service where we start doing actual production work like pick up a camera, shoot it, and charge for it? I have all kinds of ideas. We're going to talk about where AF Growth is at halfway through the year. Where are we at relative to our goals? [music] And what should we do about it? Also, before we started recording, we had insane audio stuff happening on Patrick's side.

Maybe you just heard that in the intro. Maybe you're about to. I sound like a chipmunk. Let's get into it. Whatever. It's crazy. Let's go. Stop talking. >> No. No. [laughter] I'm not going to stop talking. Is it better? Is it better? Is it better? How am I doing? What do I sound like to you? [laughter] >> A chipmunk. I can't believe that's what I sound like. I hope people can hear this. [music] >> Hi, Patrick. >> Hello. >> How's my audio now?

Do I am Am I better? >> Excellent. Much better. Back to normal. Andrew. >> Okay, great. I I don't know. The chipmunk was pretty good. Uh you're back. You were on vacation. You're back. I'm back. I'm going on vacation again soon in a couple weeks. Did you know that I'm going to be out for a little bit? >> Good. >> Um but the uh the How's How did Did you find the business in an okay spot? Uh >> when I got back? >> Yeah.

I felt like I felt like nothing blew up or exploded. I think >> you were gone for two and a half weeks. >> Yeah. Yeah. What do you think? I mean, how did it go while I was gone? [clears throat] >> Like >> I don't think anything blew up. I haven't seen anything exploded. >> Yeah, I don't think anybody >> guess you could just quit. >> Yeah, I've tried to. You won't let me. >> No. Uh I actually I'm begging you right now.

Please do not do that. That would that would be really bad if you quit. Please don't quit. Um I um that boy that thought just hit me like crossed my mind that like oh my gosh what if he did that? That would be really really bad. Listen, we just had like an all team update meeting this morning. You were there. I was there. We talked about how we're doing relative to our goals this year. If you look at all of our goals this year, we're on pace for our revenue goal.

We're on pace for our profit goal. If we're off either of those, it's it's immaterial. Like we're we're basically on pace for for them. You know, uh it's possible we could blow through one or both of those depending on how second half of the year goes. >> Um but in the midst of that, the whole front half of the year has been like an investment time, right? So it's just been like >> how do we build team? How do we add people?

How do we get people trained? how do we build documentation? How do we build AI tools? How do we do this? If anybody's listened to or watched these podcasts with you and me knows this, they know that that uh that we've been talking all about like Prometheus and then AJFOS and all these different sort of tools we're building and all the AI stuff you're doing that's really cool and you know how should we build these services and three clients per pod and does our revenue model work?

Like all of these very foundational kind of questions for us as an agency that are happening. But now like when I my kind of my reflection on today is that we have a lot of these things where if we sort of keep our head down on that stuff, I I feel good. Like I think when I look at our clients, I think we're delivering a very good service. Not that every client is crushing. Anybody who's telling you that is lying to you.

Like some brands do better than others at different times. There's seasonality. There's all kinds of things. Problems to solve in every business and problems to solve for our business, right? It's not it's not I don't want to paint too rosy of a picture because it's just not real. Um but uh but I feel really good about where we're at. You and I haven't really talked about that. Sort of after that conversation going through where things are at, I I think you feel the same way. >> Certainly do. >> Is that right? >> Yep. >> Okay.

So, here's the question. Here's the here's where I wanted to start. I want to basically kick around if that's true, what should we do next? Because one way of one way of looking at this is that we should uh we have more demand than we can service. Frankly, like I have more inbound leads than I can service. I still say at the end of these podcasts, if you want to work with us, fill out the intake form because I just feel like it's good hygiene at the end of the podcast.

But like realistically, we basically can't take on any more work the way we're currently structured. Uh we could try and solve that by adding more strategists, you know, and team and keep building it up. That would actually break our plan. We're already grow we've already grown a little faster than we have expected to. Um and you know, there's some things to work out there, but like we've already done that. But I also look at some of these things and say like there's these problems that persistently come up for different businesses and maybe we could solve those not by adding more strategists but by adding more services to the current clients that we have to solve some of the problems.

So um so I sort of think like maybe just there's sort of two ways to look at this. One of them is really keep pushing hard on our core core services which is meta ads media buying meta ads creative forecasting um and then some channel expansion from there uh you know a landing page program that we're increasingly investing in stuff that's really just built around like make meta ads work better for clients like that's that's really the the central thing right and one one way of looking at what's next is that we say like we just want to invest more and more there we already are right we added we have a little skunk works project that we're adding that is the kind we can't even talk about really yet, but um where we added somebody who's really experienced, really knows what he's doing um and just started putting in costs there.

We're reinvesting money back into the business to try to make each of those services better. But sort of like the this question that I've started to kick around in the last couple days is like there's these things in the business that really do represent additional services that I think people want and would want to buy, but we aren't actually well positioned yet to um to sell them. So like for example, one of those would be a Tik Tok shop service, right? right?

Where it's like that would actually be in some ways complimentary to what we're doing. I think our clients would love that. We would be able to sell it really fast. We could do it at a high level. Um but I don't have any background there. I don't I don't you know I did my episode of JT Sarafa. Everybody should go back and listen to that episode. It's really good. Um it came out like a couple weeks ago and uh it's it's awesome.

Uh so go go check that episode out. But he just like walked through his whole Tik Tok shop playbook and I thought there's a lot of sort of steps here for doing that. Well um investing more deeply into Google ads. We definitely run Google ads for some clients now. But are there ways for us to kind of invest more deeply there, including expanding into like a little more YouTube, which we don't really do right now. >> Um, that I think could be a little interesting.

Another thing that we could we could do here is actually like we run into a problem a lot where we do these explainer ads, >> but there's no one on the team that we're working with. Like we run into a a friction point where we send over a script to a client and say like, "Do you have somebody on your team who can record the script?" Sometimes that's because you want a founder script, right? So it's like send it to the founder, but the founder's busy, so it's hard to get them to record stuff. um or there's like a team member on their social team or something like that who can do it, but they they're busy, you know, they got all this stuff to do.

So, we just run into this issue a lot where we think the best scripts are read by people uh not just AI voices and things like that. So, okay. So, what if we actually created and I and if Taylor Holidayiday is listening to or watching this, I can hear his head exploding as I say these words right now. He's gone down this road so much. what if we created a production wing of what we're doing where we said like we're going to to really like pick up cameras and shoot and charge for for production content um and you know and that would include creator sourcing and things like that.

So >> another way of looking at this whole thing is like say no to all of that and just keep building foundation on ads. Um >> and I it's really hard it's very hard for me to think about what the best way to answer this question is. So that's that's broad, but that's you again, you and I like we haven't had our weekly check-in call this week, so let's just do it right now. What do you where's your head at when I start saying those things?

What do you think? >> Oh, it's a million different places. Um I [clears throat] think at the end of this conversation, we'll end up where we started this morning on our call, which is just finished the yearly priorities we laid out 6 months ago because I think they're actually still really good. Um two of which we haven't really fully accomplished yet. we're in the process of but like a full creator talent management um service and then a landing page service but we'll come back to that. >> Yeah.

Um where my head goes is >> can you say just say just say a little more I think it'd be helpful to be able to say like yeah what we envision those services being as part of the sort of core as as >> as as important parts of the meta ads delivery service like what what are those two things you just referenced and why do we care about them? >> Yeah. Um well for AJF I envision the service uh as let's let's start with the creator management you know a um we're not interested at this stage in our business in getting into like um the uh >> [clears throat] >> uh what would you call it the the sourcing of creators the like uh gifting you know the whole that whole the creator supply chain we're not interested in.

What we're interested in is if our brands have creators, we want to take on the management the ta the talent management side of it. So if a brand has a creator, I I want to be able to tell our clients, great, put them in touch with us. We'll take it from there. everything we need from a uh assets, scripting, coordination, um just managing and getting briefing, getting the best value. >> Here's here's what products to focus on next for your creator, you know, whatever that kind of stuff >> from a paid perspective, not from like an organic perspective, but like I want to be able to say to a client, we got this, you know, just give us their email, we'll take it from there.

So, and we're like halfway there maybe right now. We got a lot of work to do, but and and I've got a lot a lot of ideas about how to get there um actually in in the short term. Um but yeah, I don't What was your question? Does that answer your question? Well, yeah. It's just a question of like because because this this is a good example like if we're going to already manage creators and we and we do that in part because like like creator like just the whole process of briefing, scripting, editing, delivering ads is just like it's just monstrously frictionfilled.

I've seen this for every brand I've ever worked with for forever. Everybody knows you should have more content, but >> like getting it done is is really really hard. The one thing we're leaving out there is identifying the creators right now. There's actually more than that because it's actually not just identifying them. It's seeding them product, working out deals with them. Yeah. >> Um and u and then getting them paid which like that's actually annoying too, you know, like they have to bill and then stuff like that.

Now your friends and mine are at Refunnel recent podcast sponsor uh at Edge of Growth have sincere uh have sincer sincerely made some of those things a lot easier especially when it's like happening in the world of organic first. there there's a lot of ways in which they've really smoothed out that process which is why I was so happy to take them as a sponsor and also so happy to shout them out right now. Uh they're really great but at the same time it's not it's not everything for this but it's but see like even on the on the sourcing side part of me says >> right now everybody will buy creator sourcing from us.

They would all love that service especially if it also included like actor sourcing and we make the distinction right like creator is somebody who can who can take a brief and generate a completed ad for you. Okay. And they can do that with some feel for organic organic engagement. Uh so we'll give them the talking points. They give us a fully delivered ad. We get the B-roll too. We can use that for other ads, but which is valuable for us.

But um but that's what a creator is, right? Then there's like an actor, which is what we consider anybody. This could be the founder. It could be anybody who is taking a script of ours and delivering a a red script. And when they deliver us that script, then we go and do all the editing work and all that stuff. The only thing we need them to do is sort of read the script. And both of those are important in ad accounts for a bunch of different ways.

And part of me has been saying recently everybody would buy it from us if we source those relationships and and everybody wants those things right now. And uh and we are also already willing to do a lot of the other parts of the process. So should we just say like let's stand up that part the identifying and the you know what I mean and just charge for it and go do that you know I that's part of the way I think about it and it would really help our ad accounts. >> Yeah.

I mean, I I think we could get there and we may decide we do want to get there, but [clears throat] what I've just talked about is the first like we can't go do what you said without first like doing the management of the piece of of the creators. So, like I got no problem going there. I just see it as kind of a phased roll out. Let's get really really really good at managing creators and then we can go add, you know, this additional service that's that finds them and then plugs them into that process.

So, I got no problem with that. It's probably a next year thing. Um, >> I just want to get really good at managing creators for our clients. >> Any Andrew Ferris podcast episode that features Patrick could do is a great opportunity for me to tell you about my friends at More Staffing. That's because more staffing is a critical partner to our business. Moore is very simply a Philippines-based hiring agency that connects you to great Filipino talent built off the back of US-based e-commerce businesses.

Right? So the whole business, the whole hiring firm was not just a broad-based Filipino talent firm. It's it's really focused especially on staffing people in the e-commerce world. They understand that world really well because that's how they were built. They they started by servicing US-based e-commerce businesses. And [music] that's why we have been so happy to be using them. And if you've heard my podcast before, you know I've been talking about more staffing for years now.

Just a critical partner for us. I just closed another job search with more staffing. Hired somebody onboarded them literally yesterday. And then uh and then I'm probably about to open another hiring process with them. Again, I just could not be a bigger fan of More Staffing. They've been a critical partner to us. Like I've said, if you are trying to staff any part of your business and you want access to incredible talent in the Philippines, you should go to morestaffing.co/af and get on a call with them.

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So go check it out more staffing.co/af. Any position you're opening for, just open up a job description with them. See what kind of resumes you get, take some interviews and see if there's an opportunity to do it there. If you can, it's a huge opportunity for your business. Morsaffing.co. go af Okay, but let me push it one more time. Yeah. >> What if the answer to that question is to have a head of creators or whatever you call the job? >> Sure. >> Who's who the way that you get really good at managing the creators is you have a person who's who's really overseeing that program. >> Sure. >> And and and as part of that has to monetize it, right?

And so because for us, we need to be able to charge for the service. And so if we could say to that person like, "Okay, start here. manage the manage the program as it exists right now. Find out where the gaps are, whatever. >> Yeah. >> Uh dig into that and then go you you person phase two is go build go build out the rest of that service and and see this is part of the idea of like the production kind of wing of this as well. >> Is like that that person in some ways makes the most sense also to to be the person who leads content production.

And I could sort of see content production being charged a bunch of different ways, which is like partly like sourcing creator relationships, including this whole affiliate thing that everybody loves right now, get everybody into a Discord and all that stuff. But then another version of that, right, would be like, >> okay, what if we >> what if we wanted like like I was looking at some ads recently, >> this might be off off topic, but I sort of have this idea in my mind that like beautifully shot and delivered ads are going to make a comeback on on Meta, that sort of like the quality of video is there.

I've looked at some ads from from one client, well actually not a client but one brand that came to us and I actually told them you guys are so good at this already that you should not come to us. You should maintain they already have like five video editors in house. I said like you should >> you should you should not outsource this service. You guys are so good at shooting and delivering the kind of content that you're asking us to do that like I actually don't think we're the right fit for you because it's a bad idea. what you should do is maintain what you're doing right now because they're doing it at like the highest level I've seen like ever, you know?

So, um, so I thought like, wow, what if we tried to like go build that as a service where people we shot beautifully done, really well scripted explainer ads for clients and could we find a way to make that economically viable um, for our clients and for us. Now, I actually don't know if we could, but um but it was like another thought I had is this whole the whole point is not just how do we script and edit and and all of those really good ads, but how do we actually produce them?

And that's creators, that's actors, etc. Um you know, how do we how do we do that part of the process? And all of those things are interconnected for me. >> Well, let's go back to first principles, your original question, like where do we go from here? And when I think of how to answer that question, you got to go to first principles, which is like, okay, if you're going to draw a vin diagram, it's going to be like, okay, where does our client needs and desires and willingness to pay for a service >> uh >> intersect with um durable service offerings.

So like I don't want to go set up a service that I know is going to be killed by AI in three months. >> Great point. um with and then combined with like uh you know makes sense for our business, you know, so either high margin or we we have the talent or we know that either you or I or somebody on the team is going to be really good at it. >> And then there's this other piece that's just like what kind of business do we even want to be in? and like something may fit all those other uh uh criteria, but I may have or you may have no interest in being in that business.

And I would put personally the production studio as a no on that last one. Like it may fit all the other criteria, but I have no interest in managing a production studio. So yeah, >> uh maybe you're absolutely right. And maybe instead of managing that, we find really good partners that we outsource to. And uh maybe we have an affiliate relationship, maybe we have no relationship whatsoever, you know, and this is how it works.

We talked about this before with email. You know, we don't do email because we have, you know, really close friends, partners, you know, that do really great job at email and we feel >> shout out Capture Box. >> Yep. Yep. Um, so like that's kind of where I would put creative production because there are so many other things that we could come up with that fit those criteria that I think make a lot more sense before we even start to consider doing creative production. >> Yeah.

And so you're thinking about this very much the same way I am. When I have evaluated these kinds of ideas in my head, like I'll just can give you a couple of the thoughts here. So if I go to production, what I think is I wonder if we could do something when I so I was very close to the common thread collector's production program for a long time and I could tell you that that program which I don't think exists at all anymore when Taylor this is why I said I could hear Taylor exploding talking this because I've just heard him talk about how he just desperately wanted to get out of that business for a bunch of reasons.

And one of the things I can tell you for sure is it was not because there were not talented people making really cool videos. like like some of the stuff that they made I still go back to sometimes and go like this is freaking sweet. >> Um but a lot of it is also sitting on YouTube with like a thousand views and it's because it's just like the skill of turning beautiful awesome video into something people will actually watch is super hard and um and so that's part of the problem.

And then also it was really hard to sell a lot of times because it often was a large price tag to get it to look great. Um and and it was it was a large price tag for the client who had low certainty that it would work. >> Yeah. >> Um so so you'd have to tell them like, "Yeah, if you do this, we think it'll make it so that you end up uh with a bunch of ads that really sell product and then you put it on the ad account.

It doesn't do anything." And they're like, "Oh, cool. I just blew a whole bunch of money and it did nothing for me." So I think that's really hard. I also think the leadership part of that is really hard. But part of me also wonders if that's exactly why it's a good business to get into in the sense of like if if like the the the friction is the is the thing that makes it durable, right? So it's like if you could actually do that to do like real good quality production that brands love putting in front of people at a way that was >> it's it's the process the margin building is really hard, but if you could do that in a way that >> was really good and clients loved like it's it's hard to replicate that service, you know?

Whereas right now I see everyone and their mom getting into the like the affiliate affiliate creator build out Tik Tok shop buildout kind of thing. And the reason and this actually goes towards that program. The reason everybody's going there is because that content really works in ads. And um everybody wants to be on Tik Tok and have a good Tik Tok shop business. The explosive growth that's possible in Tik Tok shop is real.

And so like there it's not everybody but it's real. It's like it's another channel that like can rival meta. Um, there's there's an affiliate structure to the relationships between the the the influencer and the brand in a way that makes it really low risk for the brand. Um, and also that content can all make its way into meta ads. And so you put all that together and probably some other things I'm not thinking of and you go like, "Oh my goodness, this is like a really really hot opportunity and therefore like money is flooding towards those kinds of programs and just the general sort of affiliate relationship." Um, I am like part of me says all of our clients would buy that right now.

And this is the other reason why money is flooding there is that like you I think I think it'd be shooting fish in a barrel like in terms of in terms of is it that easy to shoot a fish in a barrel by the way? >> Probably not. >> Sometimes I think about this with idioms. Feel like it would still be hard. There's still anyway. Um, uh, okay. So, but uh, I guess are the fish not are they dead? Are they in the barrel because they're not in water anymore? >> I have no idea. >> I don't really know.

Yeah. I don't know. I don't know where that came from. >> I I got distracted by the phrase there's more than one way to skin a cat on a podcast recently. >> And that's just another one where it's like what? Who came up with that phrase? There's more than one way to skin a cat. Who figured out there's lots of ways to skin cats. Anyway, okay. Okay, great. Anyway, the point is the other reason why um the money floods to those Tik Tok shop programs and things is because clients will buy it.

They will all buy it. And so it's like it's like if we went to our clients right now and we could sell that program at a reason at an all at all reasonable rate that had a margin for us, clients would bend over backwards to buy that program for us from us. I think so that's like that's part of that's the thing that's back and forth to me about all of this and I think it would help our ad accounts. Well, I think if we wanted to [snorts] step closer to creative production just simply as a means of getting better creative into the ad account, I mean the easiest first step in that direction would be to partner with, you know, highquality shops and manage the basically the briefing of those shoots, you know, and like have a menu.

We could go to clients and say, "Hey, here's your menu of like low, medium, high cost shoots. here are the partners you can choose from. We'll handle everything. We know the B-roll you need. We know what we need to be really good in the ad account and so we're going to brief it. We trust these client, you know, these partners to do a really good great job. And I think that's a service we could easily, not easily launch, but you know, that's definitely something in our wheelhouse of something we could launch and then if we fall in love with that, we could start our own studio.

But I don't think we would. I don't I don't think we'd want to do that. In fact, I think it makes us even more nimble and better if we can have different types of studios because all studios are good at different things. You know, there's going to be >> lifestyle shops. There's going to be, you know, uh well, you know what I mean? So, like it it's almost better for our clients to have relationships with I think about a client, you know, this was probably four or five months ago that was like wanting to do a shoot and they had no idea where to start and we were kind of like, ah, we can't really help you.

We don't either. And wouldn't it be great if we had something really great we could say to somebody that says, "Okay, great. We agree. We need some more stuff. Here's how we're going to do it." Um, so I don't know. I could see us doing that next year. >> Yeah. I mean, I think of like Raindrop, Jo Spitzer's group that seems to do a really good job with this kind of content. I don't really know how much meta they do versus YouTube and other stuff like that, but I I think like yeah, they might be a good example.

It' be interesting to talk to Jacques about this. Maybe I'll bring him on the podcast and see see just kind of what how they think about this kind of problem. Let's um let's go back uh unless you want to change the subject. Like I'm curious you're >> Go ahead. Go ahead. No, no, >> I want to know your take. You're closer to the everyday kind of needs of our clients. And so like what when you think about what our clients need or desire or would make their businesses better or their performance better, like what are the top things that come to mind that they need regardless of the answers to the other questions?

The entire video editing and graphic design team and creative strategy team we use at AJF Growth to service our clients has been [music] staffed and started with our friends at Behindthescenes Studio. So any episode with Patrick is a great opportunity to tell you about BTS. Behind the Scenes Studio, which you can find at btsstudio.co, Co. is a meta ads creative agency that is tied arm-in- arm with what we do at AJF Growth, but offers sort of just the pure creative services uh based in the Philippines to people beyond just AJF Growth clients.

[music] They are they do a really really good job. We staff our entire internal team with people from BTS. We're in constant conversation with them. So, if you like the way I think about creative, they're thinking about it in a lot of the same ways and they're at [music] an affordable and reasonable price because they are based in the Philippines. If you need an extension of your team for design, for meta ads, video editing, design, creative briefing, creative script writing, that kind of thing, explain your ads, the kind of stuff I talk about a lot, go get on a call with BTS and see if they have a package that fits with what your needs are.

I've seen them work really well as an extension of existing teams if you need extra designers and editors and that sort of thing and sometimes even as as sort of the full creative staffing wing for Meta Ads Creative. So go to btsstudio.co, get on a call with the team there, see if they're the right fit for you. I love them. Couldn't be a bigger fan of BTS. U and that's why we staff our whole team with them. No, I mean that's definitely part of what motivated this to me is sort of like good quality content production >> is a place I I just I just I recorded an episode a couple weeks ago while you were out that was like it was like the place in your business you should waste more money and it's basically like the argument that I was making was that people are are are too willing to waste money on ad distribution and not willing enough to waste money on ad production.

Um, and and it's a very weird thing if you think about it, right? The case that I made is when you deliver an ad on meta, you actually have a very good sense of what the ROI on that is going to be. Um, and it so if you spend a bunch of money on meta at a below target ROI, it just is a it just is a bad use of money. Like it just it's almost impossible for it to turn into a good use of money. You sort of know, you know, um, that's the case.

But production is not like that. production uh uh when you go into the production process and ma and make ads and I mean that in a broadest of sense not just like picking up a camera and a beautiful shoot I mean like hiring a creator or whatever hiring an influencer or an actor or a athlete whatever however you want to frame it right all those things are way more risky and the range of potential outcomes is a lot crazier but the high-end positive of the range is much higher I think than this so I think brands should get better and should sort of be more comfortable with the idea that they're going to spend a bunch of money a lot of which is not going to work >> uh for their ad production. >> Um and get more good quality assets because actually if you do that at enough scale, there's a venture principle at play where even if only one out of 10 works, that one out of 10 covers all the rest of your bets and in fact delivers you an a well above market return, you know, that that kind of idea.

And that that sort of principle I think is in play there. very similar uh to products in this respect where it's like a lot of products you launch aren't going to work but when you hit the one that you hit it it's can double your revenue you know so um >> so so I think there's something like that here and part of me thinks like I want to be telling clients that and the thing I'm like so conscious of as an agency owner right now is telling clients advice that I can't actually do anything about >> um so it's like it's like really nice to say go spend more money on production but then I'm like then they say well okay great what should I do and I say >> uh I don't like you know like uh it's different for every business.

I just I just refuse to accept the it's different for every business answer. Like I'm like even to your point about different kinds of content. I'm like I don't know. We make we're really good at explainer content. What if we got incredible at at producing not all kinds of content but explainer ads? What if we just said like we will set up a production studio quote unquote and I I don't I don't mean necessarily a physical space but something you know a production service >> that was built entirely on making explainer ads.

That was the one kind of thing. That was what we sold. And we just said, "We just make explainer ads for you. We're not going to do your lifestyle shoot. We're not a photo shoot, whatever. We're going to just we're just going to do this. We know what kind of B-roll we need. We know what kind of scripts we need." Um, and so to me, that's that's the thing that's interesting. And now this all of this is why the affiliate deal is so attractive to brands right now, right? which is like like it is this there is this wide mix of production um of return on different creators right uh I think CTC just released a study saying one in 20 ads works something like that across their portfolio like if that if that's true and and and even if that number is not exactly right if that principle is basically true then like the the creator thing sucks if you're paying the economics are a lot harder to work out if you really do have that venture thing it's really discouraging to get a bunch of creat a real certain mindset to keep spending if you if you're like nine times out of 10 it's wrong or eight nine times out of 20 it's not going to work you know yeah >> even even if the math works to do it that way it's still really hard to sort of gut that out so the affiliate deal is so attractive right because like okay now we don't pay for the losses we'll pay we're happy to pay more for the big wins if we if we pay some creator 50 grand a fine as long as as long as it works.

You know, they they're willing to pay for that. >> So, so anyway, so I put all that together and I think there's this there's just this like >> like when I think about what would help our clients, what would help our work be better? Part of me says like we already own the scripting process, the editing process, the ad distribution process on these explainer ads in particular. Why don't we own the production process? Like we know what we want.

We know what makes better ads and worse. Like AIVO goes is fine as far as it goes, but like could could we actually do that? Let me throw one more thing into the mix. I know I'm talking a lot, but I don't you and I haven't talked about this either. I just heard about a service that somebody used where they shot something in in Europe somewhere. And I think the person was speaking English, but had an accent. >> Um or maybe maybe it was even a different language.

Maybe they shot I think no, they shot in Spain. Somebody was talking about this. They shot in Spain. The actor spoke in Spanish, but they used an AI tool to dub it in English and also I think to dub the speech patterns so that it so that it all came across. >> So it basically allowed you to offshore the production in with you know >> with models and places that looked like they were American and sounded like they were American.

And that is really compelling to me because if you could do that now you could say like we can offer the production service uh and do this in a way that was like really good quality with an overseas partner for the shooting and for the acting. Uh could could we scale that up and make that like really affordable and and sort of inverse the economical the economic problem there a little bit while solving our production problem.

So yeah, you know that I haven't like looked into this enough to know if that's real, but it seems like it probably is, you know. >> Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, but yeah, but to go back to the earlier point, it's like that's that's the issue for me is this production thing of like would this make our ads better? Do you when you think of our our client base and you think of their needs for additional content, I assume you're thinking mostly video, maybe you're also thinking static, but um I don't know what comes to mind when you think about what exactly they need, you know, cuz we have some kind we have some clients and again I'm not super close to it, but I'm looking at all the assets all the time.

So, we have some clients that it's like they just got massive back backlogs of content and I I could I could probably see how they would never need us to offer them that service because they're already really good at it. But some of our clients, you know, don't have any of that. So, like what do you think about when you think about what they need? >> Yeah, I I'm I it's a good question. I start from I don't think we could sell this to every client, right?

Like you're saying, some clients already have the stuff that we're talking about. So, there's one kind of ad that's sort of like the 5-second, we call it associative video where it's like a line of copy over a series of cuts shot on a phone that just sort of like illustrates the point of a product really quickly and easily in a way that sort of phone quality feels feels really simple. Uh we have some clients with a gigantic backlog of B-roll from themselves and from creators where we can just take and edit a bunch of stuff and tell short simple stories uh like that uh to where I would say like yeah we don't necessarily need more but if I wanted more of that I act if those ads work consistently and I think they might um I would want to be able to produce that for for for clients who don't have that backlog.

Um and I could I could sort of think of a lot of things. You don't even need VO for most of them, right? It's like literally just like a line of copy, music, and and then the visuals tell the story of the ad in 5 seconds. Like there's a a way that that can really really work. If somebody wants to go check this out, an example that we've used for this is the brand. There's a brand called Sunchill. S U N C H I L L. Sunchill.

If you go to their Instagram page, you'll see exactly the kind of video I'm talking about. Like it's like lots of that kind of stuff, but like actually producing that stuff consistently requires some mechanical work. Uh some operational work. I think that would that I sort of want to get into. Um but but what I mean is I'm starting from the distribution saying I think this content would work really really well. Um so so how could we then go and like do all the steps needed to make and deliver and then charge for that content.

And so the other one is the explainer video. The explainer video where I say like there's clients of ours who need that. We should keep digging into it and they get stuck on getting somebody to read the script. But if we could deliver a whole bunch more volume at a reasonable cost, I think we could we could really it would it would distribute and work really well. Well, I mean, this again brings us back to where we started, which is let's go get really good at creator management and like use that as our launching pad to all these other ways of >> like if if we can just >> be world class at utilizing the um the assets.

And when I say assets, I mean like the people we already have access to. >> Um like that's just the foundational, you know, every piece that branches off of that is just like a minor variation on the theme. So like okay, replace creator with like video partner that you know films XY like it it just doesn't matter. So like I and and I I think through this yeah I think about it through an operational lens and from a tool lens and from a software and a process like let's just get really really good at the basics and the fundamentals and then you can kind of branch off from there.

Part of me thinks, so when I hear that, my mind goes, tell me if you think this is right. I I don't know if I think this is right or not. Um, part of me thinks we need a leader for that program to like own it. And that that's that's the missing piece right now. Somebody where I could sit down with them and say, >> I need you to own this from end to end. >> Yes. >> Uh, and and to deliver that. I actually I think of one I think there's a person in our organization who possibly could be that right now.

Yeah. Depending on if he wants to or not. Um but um but but yeah, could we could we get that person? Could but that might be the missing piece to say like we h let here are the clients who right now are actually well positioned if we could do a great job to give us the the assets we need to do this but right now we're not making enough use of them. Go start with them. Build the entire thing. Here's what I'm looking for.

You know that I think and and have a leader who owns it. >> Yeah. What you're saying is we just need somebody to champion the service. And right now it's the the champion account for it >> and be accountable for it. And right now the champion is kind of a mix of you and me and in our spare time which we don't have any and so that's why it's not you know a huge priority for us lately. But yeah if you had one person that was fully focused on that I think we could build between that person and kind of my ability to to deploy some tools I think build a worldclass service you know within the next few months. >> So I don't know who that person is but you can tell me later.

You do you do know who that person is, but I can't tell you. I can't I can't name name right now. >> Um, okay. So, and by the way, we should shout out here both Mika and Kay on our team who despite our despite our >> uh uh lack of effort at some of these or lack of investment at some of these levels, not that we haven't done any, but that we haven't quite gotten there yet. Who are are the actual asset and kind of talent managers right now working with our clients.

So the who they already work to sort of move scripts and edits and things like that back and forth between clients and creators. So we do have this program right now exists. Those two do great work. They're on top of things. They do a really good job. They are not the problem. They're they're doing great. Um it's just uh it's just like sort of taking it to the next level of ownership. I think would be >> be work. Yeah.

Yep. Yep. >> Um >> okay. So you think basically like when I you basically think say the course, keep working on the things that we already have. Uh resist the urge to expand too fast to chase money. Focus deeper better on the clients as they currently are and just ask the question for the next six months. I'm putting a lot of words in your mouth right now. Uh put ask the question for the next six months. How do we make this service better and better and better and better for clients that we currently have?

Don't go do the agency grow too fast thing. >> Yeah. I mean, we're six literally today as we filmed six months in and you did a you did basically a halfyear recap this morning and as I as I watched you do that recap, it seemed to me that we're doing really great on our goals and our trajectory for the year. We still have half a year of work to do ahead of us. Like we haven't accomplished all those goals, but one of those goals is talent management.

And I think we can spend the next six months like really dialing that in. especially if you think there's a person that can champion that. But yeah, my my response to you is, you know, let's keep doing what we're doing. Now the other piece that we haven't talked about and maybe we don't have time to is like how we set those goals 6 months ago which is like an eternity in the age of AI [snorts] and you know how if any have those do those goals need to change or our goals need to change because I don't know um the world is changing and our clients needs are changing.

I like I don't think anything's changed about the our need for talent management for landing page design services um for like you mentioned Tik Tok shops on the top of the call that's not one of our goals but maybe I'll use that as an example maybe the world's changed in the last six months to say oh okay this is something really important that we should actually go do instead of landing pages or or whatever so >> yeah and and the goal the goal setting thing is part of it a little thought that I've had recently and again you and I haven't talked about this yet is like is it possible that we set our goals too low in general because um because I just and I I won't speak for you here just at least for me because I just don't have enough vision for what's possible.

Like I was listening to Zack Stock talk on on the operators podcast and he was saying servicing Hexcloud in the early days for him at Homestead changed his belief about what was possible for him as an e-commerce operator. >> You know, just because Hexcloud was so monstrous and so so it suddenly it opened the opened the the range of what was possible, you know, and you and I have been close with some agencies that have had some really good outcomes.

And maybe I need to think more like why don't why don't we put a bigger profit number on it, you know? Now, you and I have also have a very strong anti- chaos in instinct at the level of what we want for our lives. I think neither of us is super interested in chasing tons of money per se, but I just wondered like is some of that stuff actually just because like my vision needs to get bigger. And again, I won't speak for you here, but my vision for what's possible needs to get bigger.

Not >> not what I not my vision for like how much money to make even, but just to say like >> for the kind of goal to hold myself to, you know, I don't know. I it's just a small thing and you know >> Yeah. Well, I mean, what I'm hearing from you is like you have a um you're a person who expects and wants greatness out of yourself and believes that you have an obligation to um uh like do great things with the gifts that you've been given.

And so, like I I hear the desire in you to or or at least the thought process of like, well, should I be doing more? And like I I hear that and I can I agree with you that we should always be asking the question, but if you take a step back and like in the in the world of, you know, all the wins are always posted on X, you know, it's easy to to think, you know, we're not winning enough, but >> like we're going to double over double our business, double our business this year compared to last year. >> We're going to like significantly improve the service we already have, the services we're offering to our clients.

It's so much It's so much better than it was before you and it was already good, I think. And you know, I think it's so good right now. Yeah. >> So, like I look at the scoreboard and I'm going we got a great scoreboard and frankly like the anything we've already talked about doesn't really even factor in the uh more important scoreboard that is like the joy scoreboard and the do I love what I'm doing scoreboard. And like >> uh it's possible I don't know anything about you know anybody's story but like it's possible that you know people could be posting huge growth numbers at Hexcloud or whatever and like be miserable like I and I I don't know anybody at Hexclad so like but I'm always whenever I see >> Yeah. whenever I see these like outrageously uh exciting numbers or claims it's like okay that's cool.

Yeah. Congrats. Uh but what's going on with you? Like >> um >> are you satisfied? You know, are >> are you having fun? Like uh how's your family and your marriage and your children? Right? >> What about your children? How are your children doing? So like >> I I don't know the answer to that, but I know the answer in my life. And like I don't know. I think that's that's what I come back to is like I I I don't want to dismiss your desire to be great and do great things.

Um because I want I want that too, but I always want to regground it in like well what do you mean by great things? >> Yeah. And I I think that's great. I think also it's a uh say um I think the comment about social media is really wise. Like the it's always come back to like the stories that get told the loudest are the most remarkable and therefore the biggest outliers. Um and and that you basically shouldn't chase those as a general rule.

Um and and of course like there it can create this is famously social media problem right it can create uh this sense of like well that's what I should be doing like this you know it's the sort of classic >> picture of like the whole the family all smiling on the beach together when you when it turns out the parents are like are like on the edge of divorce you know like it's like there's a similar thing there with businesses. >> Um I think I think that's definitely right.

I I mean to more just interrogate like how do we arrive at those goals just a little and say like are is am I sure that >> I'm I'm not just making an excuse for why I don't want to go bigger which you know something like that which I think is is is a good thing to stop and do but I I actually do agree with you. The other thing I'll say is >> I think by relentlessly focusing on our product itself and our customers as they are and just and just treating those those like they like they are our own businesses like we care about them that much.

It matters to us that we deploy the money well. um you know that that actually is like essentially just caring a lot about the product is the growth engine particularly in a service business. That's actually not always true in an ecom business. I think yeah you can build a really big business on a product that's not that good but um but in service businesses I think it's much harder to do because everybody in our industry talks and all that.

So so it might be the case to just say if you want to go crush your goals completely >> then the answer is to make the product better you know um and just just care about that above everything else. So >> I've never said this to you. I've been surprised at how um agnostic I've been to our P&L this year. Not because I don't care care about our business or our margins. >> I'm surprised how agnostic you've been to it, too.

But yeah, but yeah, this is interesting. Keep going. >> But the the point is like because I know we have a great business. Our margins are good and are going to get better. Our business is good. It's going to get better. But like to your point, I know that if we focus on building the best product ever, like you know, if you build it, they will come. And that's that's true in the e-commerce world, but it's even more true in the service business where there's just so, you know, there's so many people doing bad work that if we just focus on doing really good work, you know, the rest is going to be just fine.

So that's kind of it's kind of what I end up focusing on. Agree completely. Yeah. Agree completely. I think I think that justification for why you Yeah. Like I mean we just did the exercise of just kind of double-checking our margins, you know, just kind of like are we sure these are right? And they're fine. And so it's like okay great then we're just keep going, you know, >> and they need work and we'll we'll drill down and we'll we'll tighten our belts and we'll figure it out.

But like right now just build an amazing product and >> the rest will figure out. >> And I think alongside that, my instinct is to basically take any extra dollar we have and invest it back into the product. Yeah, >> like the reality is the profit number this year is a good thing to have, but it's more about building a foundation for bigger profit numbers in the future as the organization grows because that's just what an early stage of a service is.

So, >> yep. >> Um, yeah. Okay. Uh, that's good. Thanks, Patrick. Appreciate it. >> Yes, sir. Always good. >> Bye. >> See you. >> Thanks so much for watching or for listening. Subscribe wherever you do that. Like this video. Leave a comment. You made it this far. Give me some feedback. Tell me what you think of it. I actually get really good feedback usually on these episodes with Patrick. So, um I think people tend to like hearing about what's going on in our business, but I would I would love more feedback about that.

Do you like these episodes? Do you have more questions for me and Patrick about what we're working through? We do one a month right now. Um [music] I I just love to know if if you're wondering about our business. We try to be open book as much as possible. So, you can also email those to me podcastfgrowth.com. And if you're interested in working with us and our team and what we're building, go to ajfgrowth.com, fill out the intake form, [music] tell me just a little bit about your business. then I'll email you back, get a conversation going, see if we can do an audit of your business, those sorts of things.

Even if I'm not the right person to help you. I might know someone who is and uh happily recommend regularly. Happily recommend people to other agencies, to other freelancers, those kinds of people as well. So, go do that. [music] That's it. All kinds of great episodes coming up. You're not going to want to miss them. Big thanks to Patrick for taking the time. All the links for everything is in the show notes, including more staffing and Behind the Scenes Studio, the sponsors for this episode, >> [music] >> um and uh and all the rest.

Thanks so much. of a