Breaking Down A $2M/Month Meta Spend & $100k/Month TikTok And YouTube Spend transcript

over 100% year-over-year spend growth over 100% year-over-year Revenue growth and spending six figures a month on Tik Tok and YouTube on top of a monster meta spend that is all what is happening in Jack rubin's business that just keeps growing profitably I'm talking about per and fig with three-time guest Jack Rubin incredible uh incredible growth story and he's going to break down all of it with like some of the most practical tactical advice I've ever heard on some of these things let's get into it Jack what's up man how are you Andre imediately got a dog what's your dog's name gonna want to know that aut all right yeah great people love dogs that's that's actually gonna be a a a happy thing to have happened um Jack give people but you've been on my show twice if you're watching or listening to this go and get those other episodes there in the show notes um you've had incredible success with pry and fig but just give people the quick intro again on sort of like the the quick quick reminder like where is PR and fig at since we last talked Etc if people want more context they can they can do it yeah p and fig so people people that don't know we sell um natural cleaning products in concentrated form so you get these little cleaning concentrates that you fill up with a bottle for life um with tap water at home and then we on subscription send you refills and they come in different scents and um that kind of thing so yeah we're um yeah we're good um we we're growing growing growing fast so we've probably doubled since last last year um since we last spoke so um crazy it's great and um part of that's your LTV but it sounds like your spend is also increasing along the way so it's not just that you're growing because of I mean you're a subscription focused brand you've always had monster LTV we've talked about that in the past on this show but like uh it sounds like your spend is also growing and that's part of why you're you're not just like getting 20% increase because your LTV is growing it's like yeah you're actually spending more as far as I standard is that right yeah spends up um about 120% year on year um and KAC is up about 18% so it's it's it's um it's nice yeah and you're you're in the mid upper eight figures somewhere around there um so that the point is that the point yeah that point of the point is like you know when you hear 100% growth you're over your 100% growth over here and spend you know those kinds of things if you're a $5 million brand that's awesome it's hard to do at that stage it's impressive even then but it's a little bit more of a normal story when you're in mid eight figures already that is ridiculous like like so how in the world are you guys spending that much more money and growing that much revenue still at this stage of business yeah I mean um it's I mean we're still spending most of our money on meta um so you know we we Mets like the engine um and we're just producing us so much meta created now that it's um it's pretty Bonkers so um just had the month through report from last month like I think we did 450 New Concepts into into the ad account last month not just variations but like actually new Concepts new Concepts yeah um so that's the kind of scale of of creative going in and um yeah that's definitely been a big driver how big is your team supporting that um I'll whole team is probably they're coming on 50 people now um but that team for just meta no okay no the whole business the whole business okay yeah I got it yeah sorry specifically how big yeah not a creative team the creative team is about seven or eight people um and then we've got four four editors in the Philippines well so actually probably 12 people cool cool that's still a lot four I mean 450 Concepts yeah that's it's awesome um okay what about um so your medic is growing you're producing huge amounts of content let's do a little quick break down on the concepts 450 Concepts do you have any feel I know I mean you guys are at a size now where you may not even know the answer to this but of those 450 Concepts do you have an estimate of how many of them are Stills versus videos oh about 75% video how long do you think most those videos are um they used to be longer um but we've actually found like a 20 to 40 second range to be really really strong um okay so quite a lot of them 20 to 40 seconds um and then uh a fair amount of them over a minute as well um the I'm a big fan of the long form explainer we've talked about that that's been really important for me at times I know you've used some of that stuff in your business I know we've talked about that in the past you people may or may not know you and I used to do some coaching kind of stuff together earlier on your business and then and then um we I think we kind of mutually fired each other actually because you were getting to a point where I thought like I'm the wrong guy to help you anymore like you're get you're getting too big for me to be like the best place to think about this um and that I think was great that's the that was the the right call so um well unfortunately when you get when you get a bit bigger it's all it all becomes people issues and that going thing right um just changes you know yep so um I'm interested in that 20 to 4 second thing because you know one of the things that I been thinking about recently is just the notion that like man I wonder what if we could double our output by just shortening our ads like I mean and and maybe that's actually a more efficient use of our time and and money it's just shorter ads at more volume you know is that you just said you know you used to do longer now you're 20 to 40 seconds was that in the calculation somewhere that we could just put out more stuff by doing shorter um I actually think with shorter ads you it focuses the mind the constraints really really powerful um in terms of the amount of value you need to pack into into like a 20 30 second piece of content um because I always think if you can if if you can demonstrate clearly what the product does and get across a couple two or three key key benefits and differentiators in 20 30 seconds you're you're kind of within Mo your average watch time six or 7 Seconds you're going to get a lot of that in the first six to seven seconds so suddenly you're packing a lot more a lot more actual meat into the average average VI viewer time and I think what that does is it not only can help you convert from Those ads like the collected conversion rate is pretty good because they've got more context but actually I think it helps your funnel because all all the people that just kind of watched an ad and haven't taken action they've got a much Fuller story in that six seven seconds um so I think it helps the whole funnel actually shter so interesting do you find that you guys um I'm compelled by this this makes me want to go really make an effort on this for my clients is um do you find that uh like you're jumping straight to the point of the ad like when you say 20 to 40 seconds more like are you getting are you sort of doing less hookie stuff like what you know is there any structure that you are that you are making as part of that so we had an ad to when and spent um they spending 100 100K in a day um and it was about 20 25 26 seconds and the hook was actually an organic it was an organic bit of content that was three tips to make your home smell nice for guest for new guest that was the hook um so like nothing to do with like but in that hook contained some really cool like product benefits and then it was product demonstration straight into product demonstration um and then firing off some some some of the reasons why we deliver the the hook and yeah that ad scaled like crazy um we're using that is like the template as the gold standard um for a lot of the new Concepts we working on that's really clever one What I Hear with that is and this is dangerous because I'm I'm analyzing something and I could be very wrong about why it's working this is this is a thing that people advertisers do all the time they analyze an existing ad with all these thoughts about why it works or doesn't work and sometimes they're even wrong about whether it's worked in the first place but one of the things I hear there is that you're speaking it's it's a really digestible thing right three three tips for doing it um I mean that's just like good content for a certain kind of person but also it speaks to this really specific angle which is not just like make your home smell clean but smell clean for guests um that's like it's like speaks to something I think that is a deeper desire about that people have about sort of what it means to have a home and to have people in it and some of that so um yeah it's like yeah it's interesting so so the other thing we did which has really been interesting and and just new that we haven't chessed about um we haven't caught off in a while so I'll tell you about it um we did this huge piece of segmentation work um so we we we created like a massive survey with with some consultants and we put it to our customer base and a and a n rep sample of the population and we created these um these incredibly distinct personas from that those surveys that um they're so rich um and they're they're giving those to an ad team is like genuine gold for them um so you know ranking all of your product angles and benefits and you get from each Persona you get you know what which ones they care about and why what drives they're purchasing what kind of things they respond to um on a psychological level and on a like on a social level and on a product benefits level and it's you know what strategists just need they need that kind of Rich information um you know that if you can yeah if anyone can do you know something that it will help a lot it's great I I really believe that I had Sarah Linger on my podcast talking about sort of like psychological motivations to buying I've tried to engage in some of this with some of my clients but found sometimes that actually collecting that Avatar work is extremely hard um like like it's there's a lot of noise in it too like there's all of these things that like become sort of distractions in it um but but what it reinforces for me that I believe is definitely true is that um messaging is by far the biggest driver of AD success and that and that so what you have to do is think really hard about what that message is and about how to speak to it and yeah and then and then find a mix of messaging and formats that accomplish that really well um that's really interesting that so that was like a big unlock for you guys it sounds like yeah yeah really really good unlock um just in terms of getting that creative volume out and like you got to keep coming up with new scripts right and the the problem with high volume creative you find is you can you can find your in little holes so you get into holes of optimization where suddenly you're put so far down a tunnel of optimization that you're not you kind of lose sight of um a lot of the angles and kind of directions your content can go in and I think having these personas it helps you zoom out all the time and keep zooming out and and rethinking about um how what kind of content you're making um yeah if you are serious about using landing pages as part of your advertising strategy you ought to be considering working with format that is because firmat Commerce is the best funnel building software and service of which I am aware in the e-commerce space and it's that simple it is the most robust solution to the challenge of great post click experiences for your ads that I know of and that's because it's a mix of actually software and service if you're thinking about fromont just as e-commerce software or landing page software you really aren't thinking about it correctly you should think about it more like like a service empowered by the best software in the space so if you work with Vermont you get an account manager who builds your landing pages and full funnels for you and with you and becomes a strategic part of your team and in that respect it's much more like an agency service but it's not just that Vermont also does all of their work on their software which is by far the best landing page software that I've ever seen uh it's that's because it is Way Beyond Just landing pages so the landing page aspect of it really works awesome like lots of great ways of building like custom video shops and advertorial Landers and all the things that make you know High converting Landers great including the fastest loading Landers I've ever seen in my life like it's it's ridiculous how fast the uh the Vermont Pages load but beyond that Vermont actually allows you to build total post-click funnel experiences that are way deeper than anything else like this that I've seen right so uh on top of Just landing pages Vermont's Landers go straight into custombuilt PDP so you can actually build custom pdps relative to which add or Lander a customer came through so you can build really tight experiences for your customers in a way that I just I just really haven't seen anywhere else you can even add custom carts to those uh pdps as well so that that solution is uh consistent all the way through that experience is consistent for your customers it's really really awesome software and like I said if you're building landing pages as part of your ad strategy at all you ought to be testing formont and see if it's the right fit for you so go to formont commerce.com forat Commerce formont commerce.com links in the show notes of course to check that out uh today and get started with formont oh 100% yeah every every creative has experienced that where you just almost like you just make the same three things over and over again because you kind of out out of ideas so it sounds like what you're saying is the segmentation in the avatars that you the person personas that you created help people break out of those things because it gave people new things to talk about like for example ways to smell your make your home smell nice versus ways to make your home smell nice for guests are actually two different things like there there is a real issue there where there's there's a desire a deep desire that some people have to host well you know there's people who really value being great hosts I think about friends of mine who when I come over they always apologize for the Clutter and I'm like I been in your house three times a week for 15 years like what why are you still apologizing for the Clutter and the answer is because this woman just is hospitable and she really values having a home that is welcoming and warm to people and that value is very core to who she is and her her value set as a human in the world and So speaking to make your home smell nice versus your H pH life for guests really pulls at that uh pulls at that very specific value you know that's the way that that's the way I would think about what you're saying here is this idea that you sort of push into that um do I mean maybe I'm actually curious to hear if there's like any more distinctions in those personas that are sort of at that level of specificity that you could share that are have been important you know even just like compare one versus another like do do you have any idea of like different sort of angles based on those personas that have allowed you guys to scale up and get out of those holes you're talking about oh God yeah so like um so we we actually found out that like different personas have different cleaning habits so um there's like so like some people spot clean which means they like go around and they like Target little areas in the house and like they find little little problems and they sort them out and other people like more ritual cleaners like do morning and evening wipe downs and different groups had like different routines and P and then what we were able to do is start building like angles around those routines um which is pretty pretty nut so it's like we found out why people get into that morning ritual and it's actually like a way to start the day and then we created whole angles around that about having great day and starting your day with with cleaning almost like the kind of do you ever see that General pattern speech about making your bed and and that kind of being um yes like you've done the first C of the day um we did like a whole whole angle around that and that that did really really well and scaled out for instance that's that's that's so helpful man that's so helpful um okay so you built that team let's zoom out a little bit further you built that team this sounds like a whole another episode bring Camila on too um you you um you have built that team um around a extreme focus on meta and you and I talked a lot about this when when we were working together a little bit more that just like there are always these Temptations to go and pursue um other channels and at the time the mentality was resist the temptation don't diversify channels and I I give this people I give this advice to people all the time really sub 50 million in Revenue I say to people focus focus focus focus build all of your efforts on building a better machine of meta ads right so um yeah I'm I'm really curious uh to hear like sort of how long you did that for Because the actual thing that um pushed us to record again here was a tweet of yours about diversifying your uh ad channels and so you know did I'm it sounds like you've had some success by doing that even though you're still pretty focused on meta so let's like go back a little you built up a team of of you know 12 creative uh people or whatever 12 people working on the team in various roles you built that channel up or you built that team up Bas basically because you're focused on meta ads for a really long time so did did you focus on meta ads for too long like if you could go back would you have stayed focused there for as long as you have or have you seen enough success by adding other channels that you think you should have Diversified earlier um so at a certain point in in a business's size I think the diversification question becomes partly about just the size of risk um like just the the sheer dollars involved in in like meta going wrong and the impact that has in your p&l um requires you as like a business owner and strategist to plug that risk somewhat um because to a certain point it just starts to get irresponsible um to like have that much leverage on one on one point um like so I think we got to that point where I was looking at I was going I'm actually I feel a bit stupid actually and um like when you would have a bug and like all metab bugs do happen you're just like you know this can't happen again we we need to we need to be be able to stand on our own t Fe as a as a company at this size and scale so I think like IR relevant of performance that became true and so we we had to start looking at it properly um in terms of the actual like benefits of multi Channel I'd say I wouldn't go any earlier um really um and I say that because the the benefits of of advertising on the channels has really come in the ability to do them to do them in a in a quality way um and have the resource and and and Financial Muscle to invest in creative and invest in those channels properly to actually make them work um and by the way you know we're we're I'd say we're pretty good at what we do right so we've got an outstanding team and an amazing creative muscle and a great mediab muscle and it still took us seven or eight months of really hard work and dedicated resource um and you know you're talking about hundreds of thousands of pounds of investment in terms of team team investment and creative investment to actually you know start in the last few months getting some success and actually like seeing some of the benefits so I think every business thinking about it needs to be willing to make that invest and and have the financial muscle to do so um and we can get on to if you do and it works I think the benefits are huge and I can dive into those um but yeah that's the kind of caveat I'd give I think that's so helpful uh one of the reasons people do a bad job on other channels is they just don't invest that aggressive yeah they just don't you think about all the meta ads input out there about how to do it well and people kind of come into meta ads with some clear principles and some some simple ideas and also it's the B I mean it's the easiest channnel in a lot of ways like it's the best performing channel so um so you have a big head start and so you don't have to have that kind of investment and so if you carry that mentality to other channels it would make sense to me that it wouldn't work as well um whereas what you're saying is basically you you have to be willing to lose a lot of money up front to make it work um you can do that then it can matter the the channels are harder to measure the creative is harder to get right the media buying is harder and the and um yeah harder to me the attributions harder um and youve got like more signal problems because you know with mattera you've just got one signal and you can work out what's going on so there's there's a lot of like um it's B yeah it's like a lot harder than mattera what if your business had lower cost of goods shorter lead times better more favorable payment terms lower mqs those things with like revolutionize your business right I'm convinced that supply chain is the most under optimized part of many if not most e-commerce businesses and there is a solution to getting there that will not eat up all of your time and will not eat up all of your money and it is by working with my friends at move supply chain or mov Supply chain.com to look into what they are doing move supply chain is a sister company of more Staffing if you've heard me talk about more before you know what the service offering is there it is a staffing agency built in the Philippines where you get virtual professionals not just virtual assistants working on your business well that same model comes over to the supply chain side of the business and more of an agency structure specifically my friends at move and I am telling you these people are Wizards like move is led by the best supply chain thinkers I have ever met in e-commerce like like seriously incredible supply chain thinkers um and because they're based in the Philippines their their pricing is Affordable listen here's here's a real story I was working with move on a project uh for a brand and in a week move had contacted in a week 50 different manufacturers for this one brand like in a week and it was not an insane cost to get them to do that by the end of it they had sourced potential manufacturers who were like drastically lower cogs than anybody else had expected um and had like got on the phone work through the key details and like just amazing amazing work imagine if you had 50 more suppliers to talk to so you could build um backup suppliers like there's just all kinds of benefits to that and it is really reasonably priced you should if you need to optimize your supply chain uh tighten some things up on your supply chain and you probably do you should go to mov Supply chain.com to get started with them tell them I sent you move Supply ch.com get a conversation started today to get a better supply chain working in your business okay so let's talk about when you added spend how much spend you added as as a percentage or something like that um and uh and begin to kind of break that down a little bit more because I mean I do think it's helpful for people to hear this part of the conversation after the first part of the conversation we just had which is I've got a team of 12 people making making meta ads all the time like you know that is a lot of focus on one channel before adding other channels and you got really far doing that and I so I mean I'm coming away from that bit hearing going no this was actually right for us we made a lot of money we could we had dollars to deploy before we went and opened up another Channel probably for a lot of people they should do that but when you get to that point where you're ready to do it let's start with like um how did you think about what channels to invest in next um and um and maybe what channels are you actually investing in next yeah sure um so always try and think about like what we're best at when when choosing what to do next um and so short form vertical video immediately like we're good at that like we do that on on meta a lot um so Tik Tok was the natural like next place for us to start focusing and I think the Dynamics on Tik Tok are similar in terms of attribution and that kind of thing so Tik Tok was the first place to start for us um and it came with another objective which which was we're starting to hit up against really really quite substantial household penetration numbers in the UK um so like to give to give people the concept like um coming up to three and a half 4% of all households in the UK have our product um and so we were we were starting to think okay you know this the older audience we need to really start pushing out of the the that audience and we wanted to use other channels as a as a way of doing that as well um because our meta our me metap pixel is so honed and well trained on kind of certain type of type of audience that a new channel was a new opportunity and and a way of um of actually trying to push after new audience so Tik Tok made sense on both levels and that's worked um very very well um the the content for form is very similar if you're good at organic Scrappy content short form um Snappy to the point um yeah lot of the same principles apply you have to make it a bit more organic the content um and um use the Tik Tok edit editor and stuff but um so that was the first B and then YouTube which was a much heavier list so let's start so are you still spending on Tik Tok yeah six figures a month can you give a sense of six figures a month okay great so that's that's awesome okay measurement are you measuring actually let's do measurement at the end of all this okay so so YouTube was next after Tik Tok yeah so Tik Tok about over six figures a month now spending which is nice um and um and very very low CPAs as well YouTube um now YouTube Took absolute ages to get working we we we flopped on YouTube for months and months uh it was so frustrating um the creative is so different um so and the measurements very different um but when you get YouTube working and you and you actually understand your incrementality and where your where your one day click needs to be um it is an absolute uh rocket for your other channels um it's it's a really awesome Channel it not only drives incremental conversions like straight away but it it really feeds your funnel and and yeah right um like since getting YouTube into a really strong place um and spending like six over six figures on YouTube as well um meta metas spend has grown grown by about uh 50% yeah um so that's just in a few months 50% in a few months um that's crazy so so really you think that's because you're reaching net new people on YouTube in new ways basically yeah we see it yeah so we actually look at new new visitor percentage a lot and um we and we track the customer Journeys quite closely as well um and we've done using what North beam yeah and then we and then we look at incrementality as well incrementality studies with house so we've we've done all the works on on measurement and we can see it it's um it's uh it's it's very compelling that's awesome okay so you're spending six figures on Tik Tok six figures a month on YouTube um any other channels before we talk more about measurement and creative um no those the two I mean oh sorry one more actually one more go ahead so um podcast SL radio has been the other one that's um that's been surprisingly strong um and actually those those of you that have like good direct response muscles uh podcast can be very effective um even on like a discount code basis yeah that's awesome oh and then actually I tell you what else Works sorry Andrew um no great please because your other guest uh put me on to this uh Nate Nate Legos yeah Direct Direct Media bu with YouTube yeah bloody hell that is phenomenal um yeah like in in in in video readouts uh with discount codes is killing um like Sub sub 15 pound CPA is like crazy yeah which is what's your normal I mean you don't have I don't know do you want to say how that compares yeah that's really good for you guys yeah it's good it's good yeah yeah yeah yeah um Nate Legos um that my he's done a couple episodes with me he's great um he um I'll I'll link to that episode you should definitely go check that out um because it's oh he because he spells it out for you right and he he spells out how to measure it as well which not just the discount code but how to then media buy off the back of you know your CPM and conversion right and everything it was like a master class I I loved it I love Nate I think he's I think you know I've I've joked with him because you know obviously I've spent a lot of time talking about manual bidding tactics on meta ads and this thing is really important but Nate to me is a shining example of like I think that stuff is really important I think Nate spend could get better by actually doing that because he's not a manual bid guy but um but he's a perfect example of like it's not the whole ball game you know I don't I certainly don't think that and um and his his ability to talk through sort of how to think about the total marketing mix and how he's thinking about customers and all those things is just awesome um so yeah definitely go check that episode out you're right he really tactical if you want to know exactly how to do it um I'm actually Nate's actually working on another client of mine right now um sort of as a side thing to help us get that channel going we haven't started doing it yet but we're going to and I'm really excited about it so um yeah um okay um that's really helpful let's talk about ti so Tik Tok creative you mentioned a little bit Tik Tok creative you said was um was sort of needs to feel like organic Tik Tok but it's still vertical short short form video right is that is that about right um yeah exactly it just it um you just need to dial up the organic elements um and um if it yeah anything polished on Tech Tok just bombs so yeah okay that makes sense um and then what about um what about YouTube so you said YouTube is really different creatively uh what do you think has been effective for you on YouTube and what what did it what what actually unlocked that for you because you said you also spent a lot of time trying to trying trying to do it so but I want measurement on YouTube in a second but um but let's also talk about sort of what was effective about the channel so YouTube is is essentially it's a much more top of funnel view through view through um Channel and so what you find is yes you can get some direct conversions and actually you can get very you know not not bad efficiency but most of the benefit of of the advertising is coming in um driving new visitors and um filling up your funnel for for retargeting and that kind of thing um so your content basically starts needs to reflect that um and you're getting into more like typical or classic marketing um Theory there and um so we have found the quality of creative but I don't mean like the glossiness of it I mean you want to be telling more of a story an emotional story in your creative um that actually a customer is going to remember and so there's a bit more of an art to to that creative and it's you're not just trying to push a a response straight away you're you're trying to get an emotional connection with the customer yeah that's helpful and so you guys did you start what a lot of people do on YouTube and I've seen a lot of times right you start with sort of um take your vertical video and put it on shorts basically YouTube shorts because then you can run vertical video vertical video and and see if it works is that where you guys started yeah that works as well so that that that shorts is working pretty well on just like a as like a performance Channel um so that's like one side of YouTube where we're spending about six figures and then another side of YouTube is the um is like the the the more um horiz video storytelling non-skippable stuff yeah yeah okay and then that's great and then um are do you have the same team working on your YouTube ads as the as the team that's working on your your meta ads no your team okay did you bring in an agency for that did you inhouse that how did you how did you approach that um we in we inhouse the strategy the strategist and then we actually agency the production um because the production capabilities were just like slightly different um and you it doesn't have to be glossy but I bet it is glossier it's a bit glossier it's a bit glossier um but we went super glossy uh without a proper story like we tried what we first tried to do that's helpful yeah we we first tried to like create um met ads but like with more gloss didn't work then we tried to do like a story um and the quality wasn't quite there didn't work and then we did story with a bit of quality and we we saw the results so it was about three iterations of creative um to to kind of get it into a good place yeah okay that's really that's that's a very helpful distinction it's not really about just story it's not really about just glossy it's some the right mix of doing that but the messaging really really matters there so with your shorts spend is your as your shorts creative literally just taking like meta ad stuff and putting it into shorts like are you developing separate shorts creative no no no we are literally um repurposing metods for shorts and um that that's working very very well um so what we're now looking at doing is build but to be clear that's not so so for Tik Tok we are doing more Tik Tok creative but but essenti the next steps for me um are is building completely independent in-house teams of the same um size and scale as our meta teams for each Channel and I I I think each I think Tik Tok and YouTube shorts um can both get to like very very substantial spends Pro potentially up to 7even figures a month of spend um if we invest in the Cades properly so to give people an idea for that six figures of spend on each Channel we we had 420 of Concepts go to meta into Tik Tok I think it was like 30 and into YouTube it was like 16 and YouTube and Tik Tok both spent 100K each right so my immediate thing is build a team to get those kind of new creates up to like 100 and you're going to be able to double triple spend very very easily um so almost the same Playbook again on those channels is is what I'm thinking yeah um that makes that makes tons of sense as to what you would do next that's sort of the obvious move is um let's talk about measurement a little bit this is one of the challenges um let's start with Tik Tok again and I think let's focus here it's the podcast stuff is interesting the radio stuff is actually really interesting I've wondered about radio for a while um but for podcasts um or excuse me for Tik Tok um measurement there how much can I trust that my Tik Tok um well actually let's step back when you started measuring you've got three potential sources that you've referenced as potential sources of data besides last click Google analytics okay so um Source number one so that's actually say four sources number one last click Google analytics um right or Shopify even you could do that with UTM number two would be uh the channel itself the channel dashboard so T what Tik Tok is telling you number three is a thirdparty attribution Tool uh like northbeam you mentioned number four and a third partyy incrementality tool which is doing something different than uh attribution though it's some related and you said you used house or measured or something like that right did you say house maybe house yeah yeah house okay awesome four tools so you've now got a lot of stuff to look at there one of the problems Taylor holiday talks about this a lot is that people are then drowning in information um so how have you thought about sort of how to use those tools as you don't have to go super into the weeds here but like you know okay what have you learned what have you learned going through that process about this so I've got a good one for people um cuz I thought about this one a lot and um I feel like I've come to a really simple but effective set by the way by the way it maybe you're going to say this but there's actually a fifth one which is your bank account so um okay so bloody always looking at the bank yeah always looking at the bank and always looking at Blended yeah so that's that's cool so um the simple answer your question and um the the key with all these attribution sources all these like different measurement things is to link them so the thing you really want to do is you want to link your channel to your third party attribution to your incrementality so that you understand the relationships between them um because fundamentally you're mediab buying on your channel so you don't want to be making mediab buying decisions based off your your third party attribution tool or your incrementality studies right so that's no good it's going to throw off your media bu so you media buy here so the question I immediately ask myself with these other these measurement tools is how do I link um let's take incrementality to being at the very end of the of the of the measurement Journey how do I actually form a link between incrementality studies all the way down through my stack to my channel Cs and that's what I started to think about and so for instance I can play it out in a scenario for you to make it to make it easier so let's say um your channel CAC let's take our Channel CAC on Tik Tok which is very low um so that channel cat comes in a um actually no I'll put use fake numbers so let's say 20 pounds right um $20 so your channel cut comes in at $20 we can we can make the conversion 20 pound $20 we got it um and then you've got your third part third party attribution tool so North beam one day click actually says that's 40 um $40 um and then you've got your incrementality study that um you run and tells you that your Tik Tok ads are actually not only um that your $40 northbeam one day click is actually acting as a $30 one day click um because um of the uh post click effect of your Tik Tok ads maybe you got new audiences or that say there view through effects whatever it might be and this is particularly prevalent on on YouTube um so what you do is you link your incrementality study let's say it's an extra 25% of um conversion coming you know later from your incrementality study you then link that to your North Bean C which means um you that 40 is actually 30 and then you link that 40 30 to your channel C to say your channel C can be 15 rather than 20 so all the way down stack you're creating the link from your incrementality down to your channel and then your media buy just has a new Target in in their Channel and I think that is the best way to use these tools because what you then have is different Channel targets for different like or from a media bu angle for different channels so your YouTube are like I can have a 60 pound Channel CAC because it links to a you know 100 pound North Bean CAC but we know that's the same as a 40 40 pound North beam C for meta because of incrementality studies or whatever and you You' got that clear journey and that's that's what I'd recommend people try and do yeah that's that's always the what I want to be able to do right is to be able to say like it's I don't necessarily need a channel dashboard to be correct what I need it to be is reliably related to some to the real value right so essentially like yeah like exactly like you said if I have some way of knowing that in that case what is the purpose of northbeam in the mix and in terms of how is that added if you have incrementality versus versus the channel one because can't you just go straight from incrementality to the channel um the reason you need North beam is because North beam then um we find North beam accounts for um uh different channels um having slightly different um stages in the funnel essentially uh and also different SKS so for instance what we found is within meta we have SKS that sit at different parts of the funnel and uh like top of funnel middle ofun bottom of funnel right and even though the channel CS look the same on North beam we're seeing that actually the cost of some of these SKS is much higher than meta is saying and so then that adjusts our metac for that skew so we have a skew called the complete which is double the price on meta it looks the same CAC as are um like normal skew but on North beom they're saying look we can see what's going on here actually your your your complete CAC is actually double on North beam your your normal your normal CAC and so we then adjust our Meta Meta cost caps for that skew um so so for those scenarios you want then that link different part Journey you want toble to see the whole journey and that's that's what it uniquely provides a window into um yeah that's interesting okay so let's so I don't know if this will be something that is actually transmissible to other brands uh but I remember I tweeted once and I said let's say YouTube tells you you've got a on to one uh on uh in your performance is your actual performance higher or lower than that one: one you know um and and everybody responded as higher it's better it's better than what YouTube tells you um do you think that's basically right if you're measuring and YouTube um not YouTube no not YouTube on platform but um you YouTube on platform okay so so YouTube on platform is if you're based on a click basis you're over reporting or under YouTube is is you yeah do you see what I'm saying is you think do you think Google's numbers on in YouTube ads are telling you that your Ros is too high or too low um too high yeah okay so okay so you're actually so in that case let me just make sure I'm being clear if I'm getting a one to one on YouTube I'm probably actually getting what uh for it's very dependent it's very dependent um so what we can see so um northbeam tells us that uh YouTube on platform is is showing much better results than reality um for like for direct conversions um but then our incrementality tells us that we can have a much high northbeam c yeah okay right that's interesting so the direct conversions are bad in North beam but it's actually really incremental you're saying yeah over over time over time and then there's you can just set a much High North in C that channel yeah yeah okay and then there's actually this element here where it's also feed being the funnel in a way that's generating better meta spend as well yeah yeah and I think that's that is the incrementality effect basically that's the thing I've always thought was most intuitive about this whole conversation is that like yes when you put your ads in front of more people there's no magic here like if you do a good job with your message and tell them what is true about your product then they're going to become they're become they'll become aware of your brain I mean put it another way advertising works right like it's it's sort of that simple and you have to do a good job your messaging has to be good at all those things but it works um you know it's funny I talked to um the simple modern guys recently their CMO and he was telling me that they made a really big effort to um be more local in Oklahoma City so they sponsored the th the Oklahoma City Thunder you know they're they're much bigger stage of business than most of us um they sponsored the Oklahoma City Thunder they they put up Billboards around town really traditional advertising channels and you know they have also Mass retail and some of those things but he said he you know I think they were doing local you know radio local podcasts you know OU football things like that that were all very localized because they they specifically wanted to Oklahomans and Oklahoma cians to know that they were a they were a local business that they should be proud of um you know and all those things so okay so that is the way they approached it and I and I said did it work he said it worked amazing it worked awesome for us we smashed in Oklahoma City and I said well what was it and he said I have no idea like because like like they did all of these things at once they saw the total lift geographically in their sales they could measure it D Toc they saw their sell through in stores and then and they couldn't say it was the Billboards or whatever else but and that to me sort of makes sense that you get to a size of business where you make an investment like that you see it pay off and which channel is working like I mean I don't know now you're now you're talking about a level of sophistication or a level of knowledge that is better than what he is expressing there but I think I mean the point I'm making is advertising works and that when you hit people where they're at with the think that's relevant to them with a good message and all those things you'll sell product to them if it's a good product especially yeah and and I'll just also add um like you you you mentioned that the fifth attribution measure which is like your bank account and Shopify and um ultimately that's where we're seeing um that's where we're seeing the results of multi Channel because we're spending more and more CAC is barely going up and um we're seeing some really interesting brand effects of surrounding the customer and all the at all these different touch points like word of mouth has increased substantially um and um and as I said you know all the meta meta's got a lot more people to go after that there's just a lot of kind of residual benefits basically coming through it's so fascinating I I've been thinking recently about how when I got into e-commerce I remember the first time I ever saw a Google analytics account for a $20 million a year brand and I was astounded at how big it was and I was astounded at how like wow this is the most beautiful g l account I've ever seen you know and uh and actually Taylor Taylor holiday and I were looking at it together and Taylor pulled me into his office and was like look at this you know and we were both this is a long time ago now you know and it's just like these DTC businesses including businesses that are not even just pure D Toc anymore are just so much bigger and more sophisticated and real players in the scene than they used to be um and so there's more more of this kind of thing that's happening which is like conversations around a brand like yours that keeps pushing on meta it's not like you're lowering your investment you still have a you you still growing your spend there building a really big team around it but at the same time you're building out this machine that is really built around like a a serious investment across everywhere where your potential customers are because there's more customers to reach and you're just in the UK still right so it's like uh um so yeah there's there's just I'm hearing this story more and more that people are going like yeah there's ways to do it and at the same time in the midst of that people waste a lot of money um you know there's a lot of like with poor measurement and some of those things so it's I'm really fascinated um I'm really fascinated by your story um anything else you want to say about Tik Tok and measurement there anything that people should know about sort of how to think about that particular channel oh yeah yeah Tik Tok is is massively over um reporting conversions in Channel um so be super super super careful with it um uh we can see that in North beam as well um so yeah cool um Jack I appreciate this so much this is really helpful um for people who are thinking through this issue for themselves I love the emphasis on make sure you can invest aggressively make sure you understand measurement you're putting a lot of money and time into in measurement tools there um I think there's a trap there for some people that it becomes a little bit to um it becomes like a a Vortex that you get sucked into and all those things but your simple goal at the end of it of just having a channel number that you try to hit makes a lot of sense to me so um yeah I think it's awesome um I appreciate your time so much and you're sharing kind of what has gone on for you guys I expect I'll have you back again next time you tweet something about uh you know how you guys doubled again inexplicably and you're the biggest business in the entire UK so yeah thanks man I appreciate it Alexandre good to catch up all right all the links for this episode as always are in the show notes you can subscribe wherever you're watching or listening and I would love if you would do that and pass us along to somebody uh that you think it will be helpful to you if it's been helpful to you that's actually the number one way you could say thanks to me uh don't forget to check out my sponsors who are in uh also LinkedIn the show notes uh they are great and I love them and I'm so grateful for their sponsorship of this show reach out to me at Andrew J Ferris on Twitter podcast at AJF growth via email or if you want to work with me or hear anything else about what I'm doing go do all of it at ajfc sign up for my email us there thanks so much and I'll see you next time [Music]