He Built A $50M Ecom Business On One Ad Channel transcript

[Music] perie and fig entirely based in the United Kingdom is one of the best d2c businesses that I have been around in my time in e-commerce and it is operated by one of the best e-commerce operators I've been around in my time in e-commerce and that is Jack ruin pry and fig sells cleaning products one product to clean everything in your house a spray bottle uh with cleaning concentrates and it's a subscription brand that just an absolute monster if you have followed my content for a little while you might have you might remember that Jack ruin the founder and CEO of pran fig was on the show a while back talking about the growth they were experiencing and how far they were going and it's just been insane growth I'll let him speak to the numbers about where they're at now and give give as much of that detail as he wants to but today you the whole reason I brought Jack on the show is because I want you as a listener or viewer of my content to hear what operational excellence looks like in a DTC business both at the level of what makes the business good and also the thoughtfulness of Jack as a CEO I've worked with Jack in a a small coaching capacity played this very very very small role in this business and the reason I bring that up here is not to take any credit for it but simply to say I can tell you that while there are many people telling you about businesses on the internet sometimes you wonder if the story is actually true I have actually gotten a look under the hood of this business and can tell you it is actually true what you're about to hear in terms of how well run and how well executed this business is so that is the reason to listen to watch learn from somebody doing a great job in a great D Toc business with a lot of the elements that really really make it good let's dive into the story of where pretty and big is at now things around offer testing around scaling meta ads around operating a lean business all kinds of stuff that we can get into I'm talking too much in the intro of me sto talking to Jack Ruben from Pretty in F all right jack thanks for coming and doing this again man we did this a while ago and I'm glad that you are back on to talk again I that was a obviously a you you heard me give the intro I'm giving you some glowing praise here and I mean every word of it you're an awesome operator and I really appreciate you coming to talk about it thanks Andrew yeah good to be back on it's it's nice praise indeed I mean when you're uh in the middle of it you don't feel like an excellent operator or anything like that so it's nice to hear it that's really funny is that you don't feel like that you don't you don't feel like you just see all the problems yeah yeah I mean yeah you just especially I think the sides we we getting to now the those problems here they become a bit ruler and um it's always new challenges so you always feel slightly behind the curve of where you should be which I think is natural yeah I have a theory about this which is actually that strategic competence is a double-edged sword that the whole reason you feel those things is because the problems in your business are very very clear to you that's exactly what makes you good at solving them of course and so like it's really hard to be good at solving problems if you aren't very clear about what they are but you're very clear about what they are they really eat away at you and when they eat away at you it makes you want to solve them so it's this like vicious cycle that makes you kind of realize that the job is never done there's always another game to win and uh and so probably your feeling of like oh man I have all these problems or whatever yeah maybe I maybe I can provide some outside perspective there because yeah that's interesting I mean because one of the I do try and open the Bonnet on things a lot and so it's kind of like if you're G to open the Bonnet and have a look inside you're got to find stuff you don't like but I always prefer to open the Bonnet than the not to yeah well we so I had you on uh a while ago now I don't know maybe a year ago or something that episode is also really worth listening to link is in the show notes there of course but we talked about kind of where you guys were at this incredible growth you were experiencing and you know since then you guys have really continued to do that you've continued to sort of go along the path that we laid out at the time of where kind of the business was getting to can you people some sense of where prot and fig is at you could share as much or as little about this or vague or not as possible as you would like it's up to you but give some people a sense of what business is and and again just for for listeners this business only operates in the UK so uh you know there's about a quarter of people in the UK as there are in the US so in terms of their penetration relative to the size of the market that's context yeah sure I mean we're kind of in the same position we were six months ago whenever we spoke which is quite Ty difficult P viig we don't really do many new things so we're still one channel one market early subscription pretty much so that's all the same but yeah we've just acquired a ton more customers and actually more customers than we even expected to uh we've been been growing super fast we posted our 19 million pound year Top Line that's that's in the bank and we're now pushing towards a kind of yeah 40 to 50 million pound year depending on how how advertising goes so we're in a good place and just acquiring a ton of customers and growing Forest so um yeah that's that's a monster business that you guys are going to get to it means you're going to probably more than double again in the next year and of course the exchange rate being what it is that's like a $60 or $ 70 million business in the US again only in the UK growing real fast and doing that really effectively and and by the way we we take sales tax off our Revenue as well by the way yeah okay so yeah that's 20% off yeah okay well that's that's a real it's a real number so you guys have done that let's start by thinking about sort of like this core mechanism you just said something interesting which is like you only do one thing talk about that little yeah I mean one of the core values of the business is both Simplicity and focus so we we really try and make a lot of businesses say they're simple but very few businesses are simple a lot of businesses say they're Focus very few are so Focus as defined in our business is saying no to things that you not saying no to things not that that seem like a nice thing to do but that you really want to do that you'd be very excited to do and and say no to the anyway what are some of those things what have you said no to so far I mean you know we would have oh we've we've got products that are ready to go and not launching we would love to launch into the us we think we could we could absolutely kill it in the US in Europe what we have to do is press a button to to sell in Europe you know we're not doing that we've got offers to go into retail into big retail in UK you know not doing that we've also had offers to raise a lot of money and we've said no to that and you know all those things are you all linked to Simplicity and focus so raising money means that you become un focused and you do more than things that makes your business more complicated launching products makes your business more complicated you've got more skills to manage more eventually got also different funnels and offers with different contribution margins and again D Focus you're advertising different value propositions so by just doing one thing really really well and forcing your team to do that one thing really well you get major compounding benefits yeah some business can't do that just by nature of what the product is they just they have to introduce other products at some point at least and it's possible I mean it's possible some people are just doing that too early actually they they actually could go for a lot longer than on on less products just by continuing to hammer away talk about the focus that you guys have had then on that one core product like so if you're saying no to a lot of things what are you saying yes to what does that Core Final look like and yeah I mean because because you're growing plenty fast right like you're going to double again uh it looks like you know and get into the mid midate figures here so it makes sense to me to say no to some other things like it's it's actually really hard to grow too fast in a business and so like you know if you guys grew a lot faster especially at this stage it would probably be really it would create its own challenges so it makes sense to me to say no to all these other things other products and go to the US and all that kind of stuff and when we've done coaching calls right like it's like we're constantly evaluating those ideas and I joked actually at some point with somebody and just said my job every single time I talk to you is to tell you to say no to stuff that's pretty much it but yeah in the midst of that it's because you're saying yes to something really good can you just talk through like what that funnel is what you're saying yes to and and how you're thinking about that yeah sure I we're saying yes to to our current funnel which is a subscription to counter clean the subscription quarterly so you know part of the game is just how can we invest as much as possible into um into new customer acquisition but without breaking the business and without ruining that Dynamic and that's that's the really hard part CU we probably could spend a lot more than we're spending now but maintaining that Dynamic and also not diluting it with poorer customers or poorer funnels is a big Focus so you've got counter clean this core product tell people about that funnel that you're driving people through and this incredible money printing machine you have here what is it that uh is doing that and say more about what you're saying yes to essentially sure yeah so the funnel is um yeah a kind of stter Kit you get everything you need to start cleaning with pum fig and it's sold on a quarterly subscription so you get the start your first order then you get refills on your ongoing orders every quarter so it's a really simple website really simple landing pages all driving to the same fundamental product listing essentially that works works really nicely when I say that's you know what I say what are we saying yeah what are you saying yes to so I set the target for the team this year and we had a we had a huge strategy day and there was only one objective for the whole year and that was to H the model that's it so that's all the team are focused on doing is improving that funnel because even though it's good it's it's actually under optimized still and there's there's a lot we can do to both improve the CAC and to improve the LTB just by playing with the customer experience and so that's all the team is focused on I mean it's it's a super tight focus on that's what we said yes to is just make that model better and that model really if you think about the component parts of the model it's your CAC it's your it's the revenue you're getting per customer it's the margin you're getting from that customer as well so both margin on a contribution basis a gross margin and then net margin when you include fixed overhead and then it send you your retention which is which is a function of what is is a leader into your Revenue per customer for the year so those those are the areas that people are focused on just improving those those fundamentals and you've driven all of that growth through this core offer or two you've done some testing there your and I know your spend has grown over those couple of years all against this one offer what are the elements that has made it to your spend is ground I mean maybe one way to ask is have you taken a higher CAC to do that or is it like or no yeah no no we always J we joke about this with um the kinship guys who we work with we've got a very weird relationship with with volume and CAC we've got the only inverse relationship they've seen where the more we spend the lower our CAC goes which is is really funny and I think it's a function of um product quality and virality we get from people who know the product but um yeah we've we've grown spend by about 500% actually in the last year so gred by a huge amount there were kind of two drivers so so one driver has been creative and we built an absolute creative um machine around around meta creative so we've got four full-time video editors we've got three full-time creative strategists now in the team and all they do all day is create Metras I actually spoke to one of the strategist was called I said how long you created a th000 ads and he said oh well I'm doing about 200 ads a month so I'll be there in two months and I said great well we're going to have a big party when you when you create a thousand ads that's awesome I was like you know it's pretty cool to create a thousand ads for a company so yeah so the strategists and the video editors just work create hundreds of hundreds of ads of um how many how many total ads between that whole team how many total ads do you think you're getting out in a month at this point we're including our internal ads and seeding we're probably getting about 600 ads a month yeah that's awesome all running through cost caps yes we running through cost caps yeah yeah like 100% of the spend I think right yeah and you're getting a massive spend through that net result of that on the creative side let's hang there because I know there's another element of this but let's hang there creative so this actually speaks to I was having a conversation with another coaching client uh yesterday where we were talking about like okay what would you do next they were asking me like to kind of build and scale this operation to kind of grow it forward and I said well like you know I said like I think meta creative happens in two stages the first stage is creative strategy and there are some big gains to be had there which is like we are honing in on what the best messages that seem to resonate with your customers are and really that gets you pretty far pretty fast like if you can go find that and testing ad types and all that kind stuff but then stage two is creative process which is a very different problem I mean you're talking about four editors and three creative strategists that means those people need to know like who they report to they need to know what their kpis are they need to know how many ads they're expected to produce every month they need to know if they're producing long or short form ads they need to know how much creative freedom do they have they need to know the process that goes from brief this is actually something that gets is really friction filled uh it's how do you go from brief or well let's even say before brief how do you go from idea creative idea to production there's like six steps in there right it needs to be briefed it needs to be shot it needs to be edited it needs to be built in the ad account it needs to be measured over time or or whatever you need to PR some feedback on it or whatever and and somewhere in that process there's some approvals you know whether that's you decide yep the editor gets final approval or the Creator Strat gets final approval you have revisions all those things so the idea of like scaling up your operation that much is actually really hard it requires a bunch of work and like getting a good task management software and I don't even know what you guys are using for all this stuff but like that's a huge job and so scaling up your spend that much is this core problem and when I think about the idea of like when people say to me like it's time to diversify your ad spend you know or it's time to diversify my ad spend what I usually say is is like don't do that instead of diversifying your ad spend get better at the current channel that you're in because there's actually way more room to get better than most people realize most people think that like oh they've kind of Tapped Out the channel and I'm like no no no Jack ruin has four editors full-time and three creative strategist full-time produce it plus influencer seating plus whatever organic stuff you're doing that you can put in the ad account and the net result of that is 600 ads a month going into this ad account and they're still growing and they're still not really maybe just maybe maybe just now you're starting to think about other channels a little bit more and you're building a mid a mid eight figures business in the UK only you know that's with a quarter of the total addressable population as in the US right so there's just really far to go now you guys have this advantage of having a whole bunch of return to customer Revenue as well which definitely changes the potential value creation of the ads and some of that so maybe maybe other brands listening to this can't go quite as far as you you could go depending on the potential value that your meta ads can even create but for you like that is a massive operation has that been hard to build for you guys uh it's not been too bad I mean it's we've just got some star employees really who I can't take huge amount of credit for it who have just led the charge and you met you met for inst yeah and she's um she's built an incredible team beneath her and managed it really well you just kind of need those need to find those fellow rock stars that really helps yeah okay so what else is done it besides creative yeah so you got so creative which I kind of see as like yeah the entry point and then once they're on your site and once they're part of your world there are kind of three areas that I I know that we optimize within that so you got your funnel your core funnel so what are you presenting to them as the proposition so that are you doing a stark with three concentrates four concentrates two concentrates what sense you going to offer are you going to offer signature sense or seasonal sense are you going to give them the cloth in that first first bundle it's kind of like what are you offering the customer and optimizing that the second is the value proposition so essentially messaging and there's a lot you can do to to to hold your messaging and get that absolutely right like the hierarchy messaging how effectively are you articulating like you know the core value proposition and brand positioning and then the third is how are you actually setting customers up post sale for us that's a big thing so what is their actual subscription experience like what are the set of emails they're getting what do they get on their second order third order there's a lot to do to do in that in that area to to to improve LTV so that's kind of like those two buckets essentially when I say say those three things again on the site just really fast rattle them off so the the core funnel the value proposition and then the post postp experience yeah cool which one of those do you think of the offer in you think of that as the core funnel I would say that there is the core funnel yeah yeah yeah yeah that makes sense and are you guys doing like cro testing or anything like that as part of that we have done some cro stuff what I've found is that it's it can be a bit can be too minor and you don't really get the heart of the problems but what you want to be really are you want to be especially if you're small you want to be asking questions about your funnel that are the big questions you like how should we model our side experience you know what is the best way to drive you know effective messaging on the on the on the website you and you want to be reworking your experience based on those kind of questions rather than kind of you know making making tiny adjustments that's how that's how we prer to do it so I wouldn't really call it cro I would call it kind of you know kind of reworking everything you're doing all the time yeah yeah yeah that makes sense I mean it's interesting because you you know you know I've talked about that a little bit too I think there's probably a day where you could start to play with more CR because now you're doing this at so much scale that like could learn pretty fast about what's working and what's not working even on smaller changes and potentially hammer away even all sides we're still going for the big questions oh for sure and that's because yeah there are bigger swings to take along the way I know you guys have played with the offer quite a bit in terms of in terms of thinking about different products can you talk through what your core offer is and then how you've adjusted that do yeah do you mind if I if I send the core landing page or if I put that in the show notes yes sure it might be a bit out date um now but you can you can put whatever you've got in yeah yeah okay so if you check the if you check the show notes here I've got a link to at least one of the core offer Pages even if it's out ofd it'll give you a sense of kind of what you guys are driving people through just tell people what it is first would you sure yeah so do you mean what the offer is yeah yeah literally like what do they get how much do they pay and what do they get yeah fine so um the original start the the star kit is normally 30 on on PIR you go if you subscribe you get it for15 so 15% off and with that you get a free bottle for life which is our um glas bottle for life that you that you get on fire s and also if you break it you get you get new ones as you as and when you want so it's like quite high you we try and position it as a high value thing that you get for free yeah that's that's our offer yeah yeah and it comes with three concentrates yeah three concentrates three different smells three different scents yeah of the cleaning product and three different scents and those are like Evergreen scents yeah those green SS yeah we're talking on this episode about lead Opex as a percentage of Revenue we're talking about building a significant team at the same time building great process around scaling something like meta ads Jack's talking about adding designers and creative strategist and all of that you can and should do that kind of thing in your business through my friends at more Staffing go to more now.co to get in contact with more Staffing and build out your team in the Philippines incredible hard working high-end Talent don't just think about virtual assistants $5 an hour kind of hires think about getting virtual professionals people who can fill management director level roles even executive roles in your company could pay them great money in the Philippines so you'll attct excellent talent but it will still be less than you would pay that same Talent less probably for that same talent in the US it is a win-win for everybody there and so uh you can do all of that and you get help and access to that Talent via more Staffing more staffing has been a partner of mine for a long time on this show and I love them I have used them to staff up my own business and have also sent many other people to them which is why we're still working together because the reports have been good across the board for many of my listeners and viewers who have gone to work with more Staffing so go to more now.co more Staffing will help you recruit train coach onboard all that kind of stuff with uh talent in the Philippines and you'll get access to amazing talent they'll make the whole process super easy for you they'll also give you a one-year guarantee on talent that you add to the business so that that new team member does not work out for the for an entire year no problem they will replace that team member for free for no additional recruiting charge any of that so go to more now.co to work with more Staffing go do it now so it's positioned as 15 pounds and again you you click to that that starter kit offer 15 pounds is the price when you subscribe you sign up you get the glass bottle the three cents as the concentrates and then the subscription is quarterly and gets you and gets you those three cents delivered every quarter order and and that's convenient because every sent lasts about a month and you s uh me and my wife some product we love it it is awesome and so yeah so people love it they come back they just keep buying it from there the LTV on that core offer has been excellent for you correct yes yeah yeah very very strong customers just last a really really long time they don't turn very much and that's been really good so how have you played with that offer because I know that's one of the major swings you can take and what a major swing the L Brands can take right is like okay don't just change you know little bits of copy on the page don't just change the images or whatever but change the actual offer what people get when they pay on their first purchase so how have you guys played with that yeah actually so we launched we launched a seasonal starter kit offer which was essentially we have these seasonal sents the car out every quarter and we launched a new offer where instead of getting the Free bottle from live you got a free seasonal s with your first first kit which meant you got four concentrates rather than three was it the same price so just to give people but it was basically the same price yeah yeah so to give people an idea of like how much this can change your business so we did that offer and it was phenomenal we saw we saw in Crazy increase in spend it very quickly we launched his office quarterly and I have Four Peaks there thank Tor holiday yeah and we just saw you know very quickly come 50 60% of us spend this new offer and they were do incredibly well but that was great but then you learn that you have to also think about the back end of an offer and what we found is that um the retention on this on customers who came on on this new offer was substantially lower than our core Evergreen offer and um you you remember Andrew used to get the weekly reports with the existing death for revenue and we just kept missing and you know because we had months and months of half acquisition being the seasonal offer there was basically the same which is what tiny difference you us to get a fourth cont concentrate yeah I think that's a big difference but yeah go ahead yeah yeah you think it's a big Yeah well yeah yeah yeah I've got I've got news to you on that so um so even even though you think oh you know it's just a small change it can't make much difference it improved CAC it actually make a big difference on the back end and and now we pull that offer so it's just an example of how you you have to look at offer holistically yeah okay so how did you actually measure the difference in and and this is important because you've acquired for pretty much ire time I've known of your business and I think still you're acquiring customers at a loss right so the back end is where you make all your money tell me about like first like how different was the performance in those two cohorts and what did you use to measure the difference in those two different cohorts right and by two different cohorts I mean not time cohorts so much as offer cohorts right your evergrain customer versus your seasonal sent customer yeah so so when we saw that so when we saw that we were having we were missing our existing customer targets what did you do you just dig into the DAT to ride so we dug into the cohorts as you'll say not on a Time basis but on a skew basis and what we were seeing is customers who came in on seasonal careit they were churning faster so they were churning um before their first cycle what we're calling first cycle so first quarterly renewal faster than the ever green group this meant that this the first cycle which is are where we retain up to 80% of customers on a first cycle you know this is where we make cut money back this is where we we very very quickly make the the acquisition that we the acquisition cost that we spent and we were saying that this was substantially lower like 10 percentage points up sometimes up to 20 percentage points lower at these Cals would yeah huge difference and these coals were growing and so they're becoming a bigger and bigger percentage of our overall um existing customer revenue forecast so that all started to to make sense so then we we start to think okay so why is retention lower on this group and you basically have to think in first principles or try to about like what are the differences between the propositions so on one level you got um the product what you mentioned you know the fourth scent the fourth extra scent so you'd initially think that's too much product so that's well teal reason then the next reason was okay well they've come in on a seasonal proposition have they got different expectations to our our normal signature customers are they thinking they're going to get ongoing seasonal sents and then the third hypothesis we came up with up with was that they were they were like value Seeker value Seekers so because they'd come in on a fre seasonal free seasonal set offer they were very attracted to that you know the word free let's say and you know value Seekers tend to be poor performers when it comes to um to LGV so and then we did some survey work we tried to validate those reasons and you because we're thinking don't want to lose 50% of our acquisition like this we're this is a great mechanism to acquire customers right because the acquisition even if the customer is a little worse over time it's incremental spend so like you you want to try and solve that problem so you can maintain you know maybe you have to lower the CAC a little or something like that but like but like the ideal here is that you actually solve the problem and figure out how to retain these customers more or figure out even a problem that you can overcome or whatever right yeah but also I I also don't like I mean even if it's incremental spend I don't like acquiring poor quality customers when you can acquire the good ones and I was worried especially woring the seasonal groups customers coming on this offer we cannibalizing Molly we were going to spend on the Evergreen groups I mean business is basically about doing you know getting more is just trying to focus on getting more of your best quality customers I think that's a great tenant in business if you're an Venture funded business and you're just trying to scale to the Moon yeah you just whatever Revenue you can get but actually trying to hone your business to the highest quality customer group is a will keep you a much more profitable business if you do it like that so I was saying to you I remember on the calls Andrew I was saying I'm going to turn off seasonal like if we can't solve this problem I don't care what percentage of our acquisition is I'm going to turn it off because it's diluting the quality of our Co Awards it's diluting the quality of our business but to it yeah so so instead what we did is like a really rigorous set of testing around these hypotheses and we actually created propositions that solve every single problem in the hypothesis so the first proposition was the same offer but we had we swapped out one of the signatures for the seasonal so they they weren't getting an extra seasonal it was just they were keeping for and that sols too much product the next proposition so yeah okay so let me just walk that back so instead of having so if the theory is is they're getting too much product now you get rid of one of the Evergreen scents and you know whatever the least popular one is and you and you replace that with a seasonal scent and so now the thing they get delivered is the same timeline as your core offer they're getting three cents every single time yes except that one of them now is is a different product than the other ones which I would say is still a change to the offer in the sense that offer is product and price the two elements been offer so it yeah now you have the same number of products but it's yeah so okay that's we removed yeah we removed the the the kind of f concentrate element of it we tried to keep all the other element as stable as we could and like we presented the offer in a similar kind of way so it was still capturing maybe the other things like the value Seeker elements so it was just changing one variable as much as we could but retention was still just as low so that that wasn't the answer it wasn't too much product we then looked at expectations so what we did is we said okay people coming on seasonal are expecting continued seasonality so that's a customer expectation in their mind and so what we did is we Auto swapped so the office did exactly the same we did everything the same but we Auto swapped the first recurring order to a seasonal seasonal refill pack so they were they were getting essentially the new seasonal sent automatically on the second order and the third order and onwards and now they get now they get three Evergreen all the time and then the fourth scent in their package every single time is a different seasonal no no they would actually get new seasonals every time as part of the three so we'd swap out signatures for seasonals oh interesting okay wow so they get all seasonal sense yeah basically all seasonal sense maybe if we don't have three at the time they'll get one signature two seasonals or they might get two Signature One seasonal but it was variety they were we called them we called them the hypothesis called them variety Seekers so um yeah their expectations are variety they want continued variety yeah so that was the second test did and the third test we did was the value Seekers where we totally removed we kept the offer the same the four it was four you got four concentrates you know start to K one seasonal but we we didn't say free seasonal set right we just um we kept the bottle for life offer we kept it as a 50% discount and so we removed the value seek element so those are the three tests we did and on the value seeker and the the too much product test retention was was down no change but on the expectations test we saw a 15 percentage Point bump in first cycle retention czy so we nailed it we found we found the problem it was all about customer expectation and so now we can continue to do the seasonal campaigns which driv so much value and it's you can see our re our revenues our existing custom revenue is basically back where it was before in terms of on a a calt basis yeah I always like pointing this out with you too that you guys forecast existing customer Revenue based off your historicals and then you measure every single week how your existing customer Revenue comes in relative to forecast and that's so important if you're going to acquire customers for a high LTV business or acquire customers at a loss especially so I mean I love that story so much because this is what I mean again by like great operators it's like really smart and allows this this focus is so helpful the the methodology there and the hypothesis testing is so great around these really core things and difference in the performance between those three things is so massive that you like are obviously correct that you nailed it in some way or another you know my theory I think when we talked about this in the time was that it was too much product that was what I expected it to be that that you know was strong and that's the whole reason to test this it's like I'm wrong all the time so are you you know like it's just like I'm sure a lot of people thought that it was too much product and that's why it came up so then then you go tested you figure it out what are you using a specific tool to measure these cords like by the way unfortunately it is all major number CR yeah okay right we are we are wor feeling that all right so that's awesome and so the the result of that has been really really good and then and that's helped you continue to grow which is great and now you can go reinvest back in the meta machine with the this other offer that really works awesome so and and they go build the you know build all the creative process to go run a bunch of ads against the seasonal offer and run alongside your starter kit and now you know keep the machine pumping okay I don't want to take up too much more of your time I think that's a really good example of just like a wellb built machine do you want to anything else that's going on in the business right now that's like sort of most top of mind and interesting to you about where you guys are at and what you think be helpful people to hear I mean yeah it might not be that relevant for a lot of people but we're yeah I me we talk about it quite a lot with this question of when should Performance Marketing Focus business think about brand and um top profile marketing and um it's something we're thinking about a lot at this point uh partly because we like to get head on problems there's a pretty clear pathway for Performance Marketing focused Brands where they just run out of Road and uh due to Market size or whatever else and what Brian can do is just to basically open up more more Market size to you and you can access more customers so it's a really fascinating one we're going we're going hard on that you know it's it's definitely my belief that um building a quality brand and investing in in really strong creative at a top of final level will actually you keep us keep us growing for for longer yeah it's you know my response to that is that you weren't there yet I think I think I think you can go further not just with meta but like I would probably think about it like as a blended Channel and you know we've talked about this but like I would think of it as like what happens if you start getting serious about YouTube what happens if you start getting serious about you know whatever maybe it's Tik Tok or something next channel to layer on and that might be the place I would look next which which which would still be reaching new customers but would still have this like performance element and I think the danger always is that like brand becomes an excuse to like not hold your money accountable to producing returns at the same time one of the things that you guys have seen really clearly working with kidship is that you have these moments where you you keep doing influencer seeding and it's in the short term hard to figure out exactly what the return is in terms of their original posts now part of it is their posts all go into the ad account but but over time now you've had thousands and thousands of influencer posts and that definitely matters for why you guys have grown as fast as you have and I think probably part of that is that people are experiencing pretty and fig somewhere you know from accounts they like and accounts they follow and and some of those things and so yeah it maybe is some little illustration of the way that that can actually reinforce your Performance Marketing and make perform better so it'll be interesting to hear how you guys do that I know you enough to know you're not just gonna be like oh let's just light a million dollars on fire and like or a million pounds on fire and and hopefully it works you know so you guys will definitely measure it and think about the effect of it based on these real numbers so if anybody's well suited to start to play around with some of that money it's you but but yeah it'll be interesting to see yeah I mean what do you think you've had Cody on the show a few times like he's um he's done a lot of TV is he and that's G really well for him um uh yeah from Jones Ro I've done a couple episodes with Cody I am I don't think that's brand marketing I think that's still Performance Marketing it's just in a new channel so I mean it may help brand as well in in some respect but I think I think the distinction I would make is what's the buy what's the main goal and what's the byproduct so I would say like meta the main goal is performance you you're aiming at a return and the byproduct of that is a whole bunch of clicks and Views and a brand awareness and brand Equity Building that comes Downstream from that as well and then you know I would say the same thing is happening there for Cody and TV which is like he's trying to generate sales directly and the byproduct of that is brand awareness and brand you know brand Equity so that's that's probably the way I would frame it is is to think about that and then you just measure the difference in the return from those things but I actually haven't heard Cody really talk too much yet about the total effects of TV and all that I know I know he's he seems to be you know positive towards it so far and of course like there's nothing in one sense there's nothing magical about meta like if the thing that's magical about meta is the algorithm is so good and the Machine learning is so good so the targeting is so good but ultimately it's a video view on a platform like and and people have to be sold by the creative Etc it just has to be the right person so at some point of course other channels can do that of course if you watch a video on YouTube versus meta does it really I don't know there's or or on TV versus meta like as long as there's a clear way to go buy the product afterwards it's not necessarily the case that it can't work no it's just it's just a matter of like how tight the targeting is so yeah with meta it's so tight that you just waste so little money in the process all right jack thanks so much people should follow you you you are generous with information and uh they should definitely follow you on Twitter in particular so I'll put a link to Jack's Twitter in the show notes anywhere else you want people to follow up with you or or anything like that yeah J Reuben W on Twitter and that's it all right man thanks again so much for your [Music] time all right if I sound a little gross on this episode sorry about that I'm a little bit sick but you know got to press on play through the pain Jack is awesome and it is really an amazing business I hope that was helpful to you as it was to me actually just another reminder of what Excellence really looks like in driving Core Business run a great product that people love and come back and buy more of and and how to scale that up if you would like to hear more from me you can find everything that I doing at AJF growth.com you can also reach out to me at podcast at AJF growth.com or follow me DM me on Twitter or you know what tag me publicly and argue with me or suggest something or something like that so people can see it andrewj Ferris is where all that is don't forget that virtual assistants can be helpful but virtual professionals can change your business you can find virtual Professionals in the Philippines for your business through more Staffing by going to more now.co and more good stuff coming very very soon uh as I've said I've got another opening the books episode coming up with a small but very quickly growing men's Personal Care brand called pretty boy that's going to be really good so make sure to subscribe so you don't miss out on that and uh and yeah if you like this episode the number one way you could say thanks to me is actually not by rating and reviewing the show though that's helpful too it's by sharing it with somebody who you think would love it as well that is people say 50% of all new podcast downloads come from or new podcast listeners come from sharing and so if you would do that I would appreciate it so much thanks again for listening and for watching talk to you next [Music] time [Music] I