How Little Words Project Built A Profitable 8-Figure Brand On Kindness transcript

Lauren Bonfig is the SVP of marketing at Little Words Project and AJF Growth client, and I have been itching to get her on the podcast for a really long time because this is a really cool brand that is on a mission to spread kindness in the world through beaded bracelets. Attentive viewers of this show may have seen that I've had hanging from my mic recently, this little uh this little bracelet is ripping on it. This is a gift from Lauren because like all media buyers, I regularly refer to ads quote unquote ripping and she heard me say it a lot of times and sent me a a Little Words Project bracelet uh that said ripping on it.

And this is the heart of what Little Words Project does. They send kindness and encouragement and the the occasional joke to customers. Uh and people absolutely love this brand. They have multiple stores. Little Words Project standalone stores. They are omni channel. They are in mass retail. They're DTOC. They are on Amazon. They are doing awesome things all over the place and building a great brand. And a lot of the credit for that in terms of the growth and leadership of the marketing approach to this brand goes to Lauren.

She is one of the sharpest marketers I have talked to in a long time. They are doing really cool stuff. And I want to talk to you about how you build a great brand that deeply emotionally resonates on this show by getting Lauren to really be the one to tell you about that cuz she's the one doing a great job of it at the Words Project. Let me not delay it anymore. Let's get into it. How to build a really truly emotionally resonant brand with Lauren Bonfig from Little Words Project. >> Hello Lauren. >> Hi.

Wow, that was quite the intro. Thank you. >> Yeah, I mean every word of it. Okay, here. Let me just let me just tell you my big thing right now. I'm on a kick. You might have you might have even seen me say this somewhere. >> Yeah. >> Uh I think there are a lot of brands that do a lot of financial things right. They have good core metrics and all those kinds of things, but they get stuck at like 10 million in revenue or something like that.

They uh they get stuck at a couple hundred thousand per month in ad spend and they just no matter what they do, they do all the stuff the the DTC bros like me, Lauren, talk about tell them to do. >> Yes. You're one of them right now, by the way, on podcast. >> An honorary bropping with >> Lauren makes fun of me for this a lot. um which I appreciate. They do all the tactical things the bros talk about and yet uh they seem to be stuck.

And what I have come to believe is that the reason for that is that they actually have not earned the scale of the next stage by by connecting deeply with customers. And I think Little Words Project is like the ultimate far extreme example in the other direction of this of like a brand that is growing precisely because you guys have tapped into something about who customers who your customers are, what they're looking for, and how you meet them with a product that means something because the product is so simple.

It is a beaded bracelet and yet it's this eight figure profitable really really good growing strong brand. So, um, so at the baseline, the place I want to start is just to talk to you about as a as sort of the lead marketer at this brand, how do you think about sort of where the product meets the customer and and what that means, the kind of brand you're trying to develop? That might be too broad of a question, but I'm going to shut up now.

You talk. >> Yeah. I mean, you hit on a lot of it. I think um, for us, we find the magic at Little Words Project to be in the spark that the bracelet creates. So, it might make you laugh. It might make you cry. It might celebrate something that you're a super fan of. It might be a point of connection between somebody else as you're passing it on, right? And our whole goal with this brand, no matter how big we get, we never want that spark to fade.

The minute we become just a merch item, just a party favor, something that doesn't have that spark is when we've really not done our job. So, it really is a huge onus on us to make sure the brand lives and breathes through this product and through the people that it touches. And I think one of the ways that we really do that, I think community is a term now that gets really thrown out there and it's almost overdone. Um, community really has been the core of our brand since day one.

Um, our founder started this business in her parents' basement with a handful of customers, beaded and shipped the bracelets herself. Some of those customers are still our customers today. Um, and we have constantly talked to them about what they want to see, met them in real life, really put them first to the point where it's gone from homegrown community vibes to now we're building a fandom, like a fandom of kindness.

Um, and we're bringing our customers along for the journey throughout all of that. And the best part is is that, you know, no matter how many big things we're doing, we're in Disney now, we're in Target, the pitch stays the same. The the story of who we are and how we came to be is consistent. And now it just gets to reach the masses. And I think that's really how we look at every single thing that we do um and really fiercely protect the brand and the experience that the customer has when they touch it. you you said something really interesting there and I think I actually think almost every great brand has something like this in there that is is a helpful way to think about this sort of thing you're getting at this emotional resonance and all that and what you did is you started talking about what you don't want to be you said you don't want to be a party favor you don't want to be whatever it is >> um >> can you talk a little bit more about that like what is what is the way that little words project goes wrong in that direction in particular like like my My sense from hearing you talk is that you have some idea in your mind about that.

And while we've while you and I have never talked about this in these terms specifically, uh I'm not at all surprised to hear you say this. Um so I'm yeah I'm just curious kind of how that thought lives in your head or in the organization or anything like that. >> Yeah, I think it's just being cognizant as we grow and we're in these mass retailers and we show up in mass, it's like how do we actually make sure that the magic still lives within the beads and the string, right?

Um, and you know the we have to do a lot of storytelling on our platforms and make sure that the end customer knows the intent behind these pieces and the intent behind the inspirational word and they're not just seeing the bracelet at face value. And that comes down to our marketing, the influencers that we're working with, the customers stories that we're telling. Um, the packaging like the simplest line of copy, right, makes the difference.

Um, so it really is it comes down to the branding and marketing and protecting that. Um, and I think the minute we kind of take our eyes off the ball in that sense, we're at risk for just being another beaded word bracelet that you can, you know, get off Etsy. >> Hey, you right now watching or listening to this, if you like this content, you should subscribe because you're going to like pretty much all my content. We talk about how to grow DC brands profitably.

Also, leave a comment on this episode. I would love to hear what you think of it. Ask any questions. I can pass them along to Lauren. See if she can engage. Subscribe. Leave a comment. You know what to do. Have you ever seen any opportunities come up that you've said no to for this reason or like strategies come up that you've said no to for this reason? It's okay if you can't bring this question. >> We just had a last week where we were evaluating you know potential partners collaboration opportunities and we identified two moes so to speak.

One was meaning so does this ladder up to the meaning of kindness inspiration community fandom of our brand and the other was experience. Does this bring people together in real life? Does it give them a real experience of the brand? And if it didn't fall into those two buckets, the answer was no. Um, so yeah, we've we've had to pass on multiple things that I think maybe would have been dollar signs out the wazoo, but um don't necessarily serve the mission we're trying so hard to protect. >> I really love that.

I I really think I really think nearly every brand, like I said, that is gets this right says no to things. And that's that's one of the good indications that they're getting this right, that they that they're or or perhaps they another sort of similar version is they'll do things that actually frustrate some customers that sort of push away some customers. Uh it's sort of a it's a cousin of the same principle, right?

Like and and it's like, oh, that's a good indication that if somebody doesn't like what you're doing, um then you're probably doing something right. Or if you're not for a certain pro person, you're probably doing something right. Now, that's a little trickier. Like everybody I think can kind of get behind Little Words Project just because it's like >> kindness is the brand, you know, that it's like I don't think you're going to probably piss off too many people, but saying no to some customers or some opportunities or something like that is usually a good indicator that you're saying yes to something that actually means something in the brand.

I think >> for sure. >> Um, okay. I want to talk a little bit about sort of if that's if that's the negative side. The the place I actually want to think more about is the positive side of this. So do you do you see any sort of key ways, mechanisms, uh strategies, anything like this that you are, uh are reinforcing the brand that you care about? Like and maybe to start like >> Yeah. Um, everybody talks about the brand like do do you have core brand documentation or anything like that that you refer to like this is our this is our brand bible and we just will not you know you know something like that that do you think of as like besides just the generic words like positivity or whatever. >> Yeah, we have a brand credo about how we know we're we believe that one one tiny little word one small act of kindness can make you know an unstoppable movement.

Um so we do have a brain credo that we have at the start of like every internal deck. It's like hung up on our wall. we start every all hands meeting with it. Um, so that is something that we reference for sure. Um, and then we have like our standard brand guidelines that you know any brand might have. Um, but that credo is is great because I think while that's something that's meant to be internal facing, it's very closely aligned to what a customer might find when they come and read about us which I think is like also the beauty of our brand.

The brand is the product, the product is the brand and they are like one and the same. Um, which is really really special I think. Um, and back to your earlier point when you had said, "Hey, like Little Words, you know, has something for everyone." That is so true. And I think as a marketer, you're always told you can't be like all things to all people, but here you absolutely can be. So, it makes it even harder to decide, okay, what we're going to go after, what stories we're going to tell.

But again, I'm trying to think what other brand has the luxury and the honor to be something to everyone, not many. Um, so really harnessing that as our superpower is difficult in the sense that it creates a lot of competing priorities but also really beautiful in the sense that like I think that there's no limit to our our market uh potential. >> Yes, everybody you can be kind to people in all kinds of >> political places and religions and stages of life and >> and all you know what I mean all that kind of stuff.

Okay, then let's talk about what else you do sort of uh when you think about sort of how do you how you effectively execute that brand vision. Um where do you see in your marketing that kind of that kind of execution happening? Like what are the things you're doing that are executing uh the sort of brand vision of of kindness and and and positivity and and uh yeah yeah kind words to people. >> I mean I could go on about this for hours but I would say some of the biggest places that you'll see is one all of our give back initiatives.

So, you're familiar with these, but um we've had the pleasure of working with various charities and also creators um to create giveback bracelets and programming to donate um funds to charity. So, I'll give two examples. >> If you are growing an e-commerce business, you should be staffing your team with help from my friends at more staffing. More staffing, very simply, is a e-commerce focused staffing agency that staffs incredible talent from the Philippines in your business.

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Couldn't recommend it any higher. Go check it out. >> Yeah. I was going to say, let's stay on this for a second because I was going to ask a question about this specific initiative, but I wondered if this is one of the places your mind would go to. You guys do more givebacks than almost any brand I've ever seen. Like you guys do it all the time and they are very effective. Like, and what I mean by effective is like is at the ad account level, you guys spend material dollars on a lot of these different givebacks and it clearly resonates with people.

Um, and so I I do want to unpack this a little. I think charity give back and charity partnership is functions like influencer deals in a lot of brands but that but that a lot of uh operators just don't think about them that way. >> Yeah. >> But they have a lot of the same things like you can run partnership ads through charity accounts. You you know the the the charity has uh >> there's there's a cost to it usually in the form of like a percentage instead of a dollar amount instead of a raw dollar amount.

Like there's a bunch of things that look like uh influence of partnerships but you but it's sort of a slightly different strategy. So anyway, so you were about to give two examples of of partnerships you guys have done. talk talk a little about sort of how you think about this and what you guys do. >> Paybacks are incredible. They're certainly not new to the marketing space, right? A lot of brands do them. I think that the way we do them at Little Words goes so much deeper.

It's so much bigger than just like a roundup at checkout or, you know, 10% of proceeds is going to a charity today. It's >> a bracelet that people buy into because they believe in that cause. They want to feel a sense of belonging. Um, it really is like almost a rally cry and it's awesome to see when it really takes off and not only gives back a bunch of dollars to a really great cause, but brings a really amazing group of people together who are looking for some common ground and support through whatever they're going through.

So, um, we did we do them all the time, but I would say this year our two best ones have been something with Sydney. She's an amazing creator. If you don't know her, give her a follow. She's on TikTok. Um, she has a rare form of bioct cancer. Um, but she has really just been known on TikTok for her positivity and just her unrelenting happiness throughout her condition. Um, and she created a bracelet that said, "Happy to be here." And I was just on the phone with her team this morning.

We've sold over 7,000 units of that um since February of this year. And it hasn't even been on like consistently throughout time. So, we were able to give back over $30,000 to her foundation. Um, which obviously is incredible. But if you scroll to any one of her videos of this bracelet, you could see hundreds of people commenting showing their bracelet saying, "Hey, Sid, I'm happy to be here because of you." It really is just awe inspiring to see people rally behind a cause, someone and and rally together, honestly.

Um, and that's just such a great marriage of not only giving back, but the community again, and that fandom that we stand for. Um, so that's been really great. And then I would say another big one is um an ALS bracelet we did with Brook Brooke Eie. She is a Tik Tocker who sadly has ALS herself, but she's done a lot of the space to raise awareness. Um and her community has again shown up in absolute droves. We've donated over $25,000 to team Gleason with her and that content has millions and millions and millions of views.

It really just is reaching the masses. So again, really special stuff that we're able to do. We're able to have in real life events with them. Sid was at our store meeting with her community. Um, again, just bringing people together over a good common cause and just watching it just take off and grow legs of its own is really special. >> Um, that was City Towel and what was the other was the other EBY. >> Yeah. Um, the links for both of those are in the show notes.

I have looked at uh this content. I've seen it in the ad account can confirm that it has performed really awesome. And when you think about that at the give back level, it means that like you just quoted, Little Words Project is scratching out some big checks to these people and to their causes. Um, and and you know, really specific to the causes in ways that are really awesome. And I think like and and you know, you guys do that stuff, but you also do like sort of more generic Red Cross kind of stuff and you've done stuff.

You've done like a whole broad range of stuff. So the two examples you gave are both individual influencers, but um but you've but you've also done some broader things. Do you want to talk at all about sort of the non-influencer creator focused stuff? because I do think there's some magic in those first two and I actually want to come back to that uh because they're actually sort of creator driven at the same time. But um but uh but do you want to talk more broadly for a second about sort of other giveback type stuff while you do? >> Yeah.

Um we also have a long-standing program called Little Words Big Impact um which has a bracelet for specific charities and a collection that's available always on. So those are some of your bigger organizations like um American Red Cross, NAMI. Um we launched that years ago and it's sort of really just taken off I would say this past year. Um and the whole point is that you're able to go on any day of the week no matter if it's an awareness month or not and buy a bracelet from a cause that you love and support.

Um some of our most successful ones over there are for infertility and for cancer. And we do find that customers come to us unfortunately in those times of need, right? if they're experiencing something like that or they know someone, a loved one is going through that. Um, something like buying them a bracelet is a really touching gesture and it also gives back to whatever they're experiencing. So, we're really proud of that program.

I think historically we've donated over a million dollars through that. Um, and this year I cannot wait to round up what the total is. We just added Trevor Project into the mix. Um, great timing with Prime Month. Uh, but really the the goal there is just to put a stake in the ground that we are always on giving back. um sort of no matter what. Um and I think it's really special to who we are. >> And I think you know when you talk about what you just said, right, you've got uh everything from Red Cross to Trevor Project to ALS to um Sydney's charity, which I don't remember what that's called, but the um but you know, that's a wide range of stuff and it speaks to that same thing, which is that you guys have this ability to speak to a whole bunch of different people.

I think a lot of brands there's there's this there's another thing here where brands uh I I think for brands that are that are more targeting a specific niche or community give backs are especially underrated because it's one of the things that signals that you actually care about that community like >> um you know there are a lot of examples of this um but the one I I've talked about a lot um and and I think uh well a really good one is born primitive which does has done some stuff paying off medical debt for veterans right Born Primitive is a very like sort uh explicitly overtly patriotic um brand founded by you know people who were active duty military when it was founded active duty Navy Seals and so you know for them and what their brand is a give back of paying off veteran medical debt is really right for who their customer is and for who their who their community is.

You guys can do this really broadly, but I think a lot of people should think about this as they try to be in a really specific kind of community and think about who their customer is, what they actually care about, and how we show in some way. We are actually for >> for you, you know, and I think that's so much the value of what the what the give back is. >> I want to come back to to Sydney and Brooke for a second. Um >> because there's some some super magic there, which is that both of them are really successful creators on their own as well.

So, not only do they have encouraging stories that I think have really good brand um opportunity for Little Words Project, you guys get to give give a bunch of money to somebody, which is awesome. You know, everybody's happy about that. But also, you know, everybody wants whitelisted creator content right now, right? So, it's like um like I think there's a another element of the strategy there that is sort of underrated as well, which is like finding the the influencer or the creator who's already good and is connected to a certain to a certain charity and sort of doubling down on that as as the way you approach this because when you think about the distribution mechanism here of of meta ads as like one of the core ways that you're getting your message out there, >> which is what your ad spend functionally is, having creators voice that um is is really valuable.

I'm curious to hear you talk about um how you structure those deals a little bit. As much as you you can say about that um sort of where there is overlap between the give back versus the the um money that goes straight to the influencer and just sort of how you think about building those. They can be sort of sensitive in some ways actually because you don't want to be like oh we don't have to pay you because we're giving money to your charity.

But you know what I mean? Like so I'm just curious how you think about forming those kinds of deals because it's it's a really good strategy I think and um again you maximize your impact and and and the value in the brand but how do you um how do you think about sort of the the sort of the mechanics of the deals on those? >> Yeah, I mean it always varies based on the creator and um you know we're lucky enough too that sometimes some of the larger creators are really just looking for a way to give back to their community and and aren't looking for compensation.

Um but we always want to make sure that these scenarios are win-winwin is what we say. the brand wins, the creator wins, the charity wins. Um, so we structure them usually with like a commission or a flat fee situation on top of the donation. Um, or if that's not something that the creator is into, maybe we'll do like an event or something like that and we'll we'll foot the bill um just to bring their community into it and and provide opportunities for, you know, in real life interaction.

Um, so it varies, but I think we use that win-win-win lens as like our our guiding light. >> Yep. So you're you're paying the creator, you're paying the influencer, good money. >> You're also doing the give back and Yeah. And it kind of >> easily all works out. Yeah. >> Yeah. Um and and like anything like this, like if they if they're able to generate spend, if they're able to generate revenue on the on the product, then >> Yeah.

And it's an interesting point you make too is that the ads for creators who have their own product that's very bespoke to their journey. Those perform so well versus like we've also done influencer content and whitelisting when it's a standard like hey I got these gifts for Mother's Day and here's my words. Those never perform nearly as well. So, I think we're also in a very unique position where we can whip out these custom bracelets that say the creator's word that they want and the pattern that they love and then they speak to it in ad content and it's kind of the perfect marriage of everything.

Um, which I know we're in like a really unique place to be able to do that versus like apparel or you know CPG or what have you. >> Yeah. Right. Yeah. But brands can and I you know I mean I had Taylor Wrath who you've met as well from Brian Anony's really really smart influencer marketer as well and this is one of her core strategies is is is launching jewelry collabs with influencers um and finding like you know she doesn't start there with the relationships but she builds into those over time.

I've come to I've come to think more brands should think about how to do this. There's another brand of ours I've looked at that has a really good influencer program. Uh, she's Birdie. You and I have talked, you've also met Richie and all that. And I thought like, is there like a it's kind of an accessory. Could you turn that product, which feels weird, is there some way to do that into like a custom product with a certain influencer or something like that?

And and I there probably is for a smarter product dev person than me and somebody creative enough, you know, and I think more brands again ought to consider this. Like you guys have the ease of doing it with words on a bracelet. It's really flexible as a product, as the core product, right? But yeah, um but yeah, >> personal. It feels personal. Everyone's word is very much like >> precious to who they are and that's why they perform so well. >> Yeah, it's really good.

Let's let's like use that as a jumping off point into influencer more generally. Um sort of at any level of this, >> Lauren, I want you to talk about influencer. I'm gonna I'm I have a very specific influencer question for you, but I wanted to start broad like what do you think is the role of influencers? You guys have built partnerships with >> Yeah. >> You know, really big name influencers who you're doing all kinds of stuff with.

Um, you know, in some ways it looks like almost more traditional influencer deals, more almost brandandy influencer deals than what sort of a lot of people do right now. So, what is the role of influencer in Little Words project brand development and growth and and all that? >> I was thinking a lot about this before obviously coming on to the show and even the word influencer doesn't quite fit with like what we're doing here.

I almost would call them like our besties that have, you know, a megaphone essentially. Um, that's kind of the lens that I look at our creators that we work with. Um, and I always want to be sure that whatever we're doing with them, whether it's a collab bracelet or paid post or an event, it feels very meaningful and organic compared to a standard, you know, brand hashtag ad. Um, that is like my my worst fear. Um, I want to be sure that they they really feel like they are our bestie and that there is a uh a point and a very clear reason as to why they're working with us.

And I think the the role from a business perspective is very much like layers deep. One, yes, they're they've been great revenue drivers, which is amazing. Um, you also have folks who maybe don't convert super well, but they're amazing brand awareness drivers. And we see in our post-purchase data that people are mentioning their names when they're coming to buy from us, whether or not they're buying, you know, their specific collab product, which is great.

Um, and then sometimes you'll just have a creator you're working with that is just for the plot, and that's okay. Like, you know, we're we're confidentially talking to Snookie for a summer campaign for our Pier Village, New Jersey Shore location. Um, >> do we need to blip Do we need to bleep this? >> I mean, no. I think like it's >> great. >> But friend, yeah, but I'm just saying like Snookie is more of a like just just for the plot.

Our millennial customer will love her Jersey Shore. It's perfect. Um, you know, maybe she's not going to sell bajillions of Ununas. She might. I don't know. But you have to reserve that that layer of just uh surprise and excitement, I think, um, for your brand. So, um, yeah, I I don't really think that influencers play any one role, and there's so many ways to go about it. Um, and then we also have a really strong Tik Tok shop affiliate community, which is really exciting.

We've seen a lot of our bracelets take off on Tik Tok shop, and it's almost always because a creator video is popping off. Um, and we've had a lot of success leveraging that content, too, in the ad account, on Meta. Um, and that's also really fun to see, too. It's like the little ground swell of Little Words project lovers and they're getting reach and they're getting commission and all of that good stuff on a really fastmoving platform.

Um, it's it's so interesting because because that that now covers everything right from Snookie to Sydney Towel who's like 100% creator influencer and is like those two are are have pretty different vibes I would say in terms of what their uh in terms of what their public persona is from that to sort of your everyday Tik Tok creator, Tik Tok shop person. Those are three really different kinds of things. And I when I think about the idea of doing something with Snookie like it's like you know you you said something there again which is like for your millennial customer like and you've you've told me you don't think that primarily Little Words Project is actually that much of like a Gen Z product.

It's much more like millennial or whatever. >> Again knowing who you are means knowing who you aren't. And so Snookie is like this thing where it's like >> is Snookie the most the person most associated with um positivity and kindness? Like I'm not sure that's exact. I don't I don't think people think she's bad or whatever, but just like it's not really what her brand is. >> Yeah. But it's But what she is associated with is like >> fun.

She's associated with like being being fun >> from a from a from a fun and silly TV show a while ago that absolutely everybody knew was rotting their brain when they watched it, but still watched it because it was fun, you know, like because it was just fun. And I think that's I guess great. Um, you know, when you do a deal like that, how do you think about the payback on it? because I sort of am curious about there's some of these where it's like that you get the post, you pay for the post, whatever it is, >> and it's hard to know whether or not that's generating immediate and obvious like direct response style revenue for the brand.

And and yet I like there's this part of me that really wants to resist, >> you know, I mean, when I talk to you about it, you have an influencer budget, right? And it's like this is how much we're going to spend >> for a giant omni, you know, if we're a growing omni channel business that has to make money in a lot of places. >> Yeah. >> And and you're not necessarily thinking about like a lot of DTC peer play kind of brands are so far as I can tell.

How do you think about the return on those deals and the allocation of budget for some of these deals and some of that? I mean, I do have a, you know, a line for influencer budget and I do dedicate, let's say, like 60% of that to conversion driving influencer efforts that I know are going to give a hard ROI that's trackable and measurable and attributable. And then the other 40% is is just like the hope, wish, and the prayer.

And if there isn't an actual ROI driving result, it's okay because it it did something for the brand message we were trying to say at the time or um it just fit into the campaign that we were trying to do. and we wanted more eyeballs or we were having an event at the store, we wanted more people there. Um, and that's those are the kind of deals that I try and make sure I just really diversify in the contract. So, it's never usually just a post.

It's like, you know, to go back to Snookie, we're having her probably be it do when we greet at our store, have a bracelet online with a word that she loves. Um, and then we have the social and whitelisting sort of round it out. So, I do try and make those types of contracts diversified as possible. Um, so even if I'm not getting like a really strict dollar return, at least I put her in a bunch of places and um, leverage her in a bunch of different ways.

I think so much of the reason that we, if I may say so, have been successful working with you guys and that it has been a good partnership is just like because of the way you think about questions like that is like it is like for us as an agency, you know, we live and die on the dollar return and and making creative that moves units and that distributes ad dollars in a way that's driving profit with a forecast and all this, right?

We are going to be the ones in the room fighting for the return on the dollars. And yet I really really really want somebody else in the room who is like who is like on this brand side saying I have this budget. I'm going to use it really effectively and excellently but I'm not and but I'm going to measure. You actually just mentioned measuring it by the message basically like it's almost not even a an awareness number or whatever.

It's just like does this serve our customer? We're just going to do that repeatedly over time. Does this serve our message? And we do that repeatedly over time. And I think I just think at a certain level that is what great brands do. And they and they don't they you might have some awareness or some reach metrics. Like I know you I know you're looking it's not like you're like I don't care if it reached anybody on Instagram or I don't care if we made any money.

Like I know you're looking at those on every single campaign you guys do. >> Yeah. For sure. >> But but there's something about the idea of saying like we're just going to we're just going to think about this a little bit more broadly than that and a little bit over a longer time period than that. You know, >> being realistic about where we are too. We're not in a spot to pay someone 100K, 200k to be the face of our campaign like full stop.

But if it's not that, what's the downsides version of that? And how are we stairstepping our way up? >> So that's actually the next thing I was going to ask you about was what I'm really curious about. You've you've been at Little Worth Project with some break, but uh but off and on basically uh for a long time, a bunch of years. How many years? >> Five in total in counting. >> Okay, great. Yeah. >> So you've seen the growth of the brand over a long period of time.

And one of the things I'm curious about is like for the brand who's at five million in revenue right now and not where you guys are where again you've got a bunch of your own stores, you're you're in mass retail, >> you've got a a good DTOC business that's you know you know eight figures on it, whatever. >> Like uh how do you think about the earlier stages of this because they can't even because those brands I think should not go do a thing right now which is like go get Snookie to show up to a store for sure. like they they they have to actually probably live in the measurability world a little bit more still at that stage of things I think and I'm just curious sort of if you can take your mind back to an earlier stage of of little words project like how would you have thought about this >> you know in those days >> start with seating I know that word is tossed around so much but you'd be surprised at who answers your DMs and will post something that you send them um and I think it's important to just generate that affinity early on and reuse the content I mean even still today.

Yeah, sure. We have content that we've paid for in these big partnerships. We also have, you know, UGC from our customer Sally that performs just as well sometimes. So, getting your product into the hands of people, I think, is such a simple yet still effective tool no matter what the size of your budget is. And thankfully, these days, we have things like a ShopMot or a like or an LTK or a Tik Tok shop where you can actually see dollars um attributed to the samples that you're sending out, which is really great. and that wasn't always something of the past.

So, I would always say start there. Um, and just watch your dollars, watch what you're spending on. Don't overspend. Don't get over your skis, you know, for the thrill of it. Um, and lean into the things that are free. Like, again, organic social, so easy, overly generalized. I I think >> every other day people are like, "Organic social's dead, blah, blah, blah." But that's where it all starts. And so if you get it right at the start >> and you really are intentional about using that as a canvas to tell your brand story day in and day out and entertain and engage with people and not sell to them, it will set yourself up for growth down the line.

And I will say that 100 times over. >> One of the reasons you are not doing the influencer marketing you should be doing is because it is so full of operational friction. And there is no tool that I have seen that reduces and resolves that friction like Refunnel. And I can tell you for sure that Little Words Project and Lauren and her team use Refunnel was actually the thing that turned me on to them and made me want to reach out to them to say, "You've got to be a sponsor on my show.

This is the best software product I've seen in a long time for e-commerce brands." Like look, the reality is if you are serious about a an influencer and seeding and content and social listening program, whitelisting, all the things that you should be interested in if you're running a DTOC brand that's using Facebook ads to grow the brand. Refund is just an incredible tool. So I want to tell you a few of the things that that it does that reduces friction for you.

The first is that it makes it's oneclick whitelisting. So it's really easy to get whitisting relationshipship set up without ad codes and all the different kinds of little things that make that a really annoying thing. Secondly, uh it has it automates basically the entire seeding process. So when people opt into seeding, all of the fulfillment and tracking and all of those things that happen from getting your product to the influencer all happen automatically.

It makes it really easy to DM influencers on different social platforms. You also have the ability to, and this is maybe my favorite part of it, to do really good social listening. So you can see who has posted, what the reach is, who has tagged you, all those things. And then critically, you can request usage rights from within Refunnel in one click. So you just see the post and then you can say, "Oh, I want to use that piece of content." And then and then if they grant it, you can download the content or get it into the ad account from Refunnel really, really quickly and easily as well.

Like this stuff used to take people hours of hours of hours and hours of VA time and all those kinds of things. It is so much easier. Like let me just put it really simply to you. Um, I know Lauren would say the same thing because she's used it a lot. I've used it with her team a bunch. And let me just put it really simply. If you are serious about your influencer program or you want to be serious about it, you you must book a demo with Refunnel.

They do a fantastic job. You can go to reffunnel.com. Go to refund.com. Tell them I sent you. They do an amazing job of making the whole process dramatically easier. Go check it out. Refunnel.com. Right now, I am fully becoming radicalized on this point. I just spent time with a client over the last couple days where we were talking about this and I was and I was trying to have this conversation. We're threading the needle of measurability.

Now, you're never going to be able to track this to dollars specifically really in organic social, right? But you there should be some measure of success for the person running organic social to know if it's any waste any good use of your time. Um, and so I was thinking like, okay, like reach or impressions or something like that mixed with some just like broader brand thing of like are we hitting our CM contribution margin targets total.

If you have both of those, if you're growing your reach and your total business CM or your total profitability business are good, you're winning. Yeah. And I I think I think organic social should be thought of the way you just said, like being in with people, making entertaining and engaging stuff >> for that core person who's following you on social. >> Another little underrated thing about this is that like, and I I don't know if everybody does this.

I've specifically watched women shop this way. Lauren, you don't have to tell me if your experience is the same. >> Um, I remember sitting with a couple of ladies who were running an ad agency and I was showing them back way back when I was working on on uh on 31 bits, like a little little jewelry band I worked on a long time ago. Um, uh, I I was showing them our ads, just kind of getting their input on it. And the very first thing they did when I showed them one of our ads, uh, on their phone, I serve it to their phone, was they did not click on the link in the ad.

They clicked on the profile handle and went straight to the brand's profile and were looking around at like what their Instagram feed looked like. In those days, there was no reals or whatever, but yeah, something like that. And they started doing that. And I I was just with a couple of other ladies who were who were, you know, talking about jewelry and fashion accessories and stuff like that. and they were saying, "Oh, yeah, that's what we do every time we see something is I go straight to the brand profile." And that's a sneaky thing because because that means that like the the first place people are going to see you and engage with you, at least for some customers and and maybe I don't know, maybe dudes do this too.

I'm I barely use Instagram, so I don't know. But uh pretty much Twitter for me. Um but uh but like is they'll go and they'll go look at look at the profile, which means if your brand doesn't feel like lived in and active and alive to people, Yeah. >> I think you're probably going to be missing out. um on on the value creation here and it's really hard to attribute that to like a rorowass number or whatever but I really think it matters.

So yeah I don't know say more about why you could go on and on about social why it's so important to you because I this is like I'm I'm coming really hard I'm starting to really believe brands have to do this better. >> Yeah we've seen a really clear correlation between follower growth and just like our overall net sales. It's correlated for sure if you put it on like a long graph. >> Yeah. >> Um and we we've been able to keep up our engagement pretty well despite follower growth, which is amazing and kudos to our social team.

But >> what do you mean you you mean normally that doesn't happen that way? >> Yeah. Normally the more followers you have your engagement drops. Just harder to get people to engage the more you're growing. Um >> really? >> Mhm. >> Yeah. Um but we've been able to be pretty stable there. And you know, back to what people want to see on social. I mean, I'm I'm having this conversation every day with our our social lead.

Like, throw the launch calendar out the window. Like, I don't care. Just be there every single day and make sure what we're posting is what someone wants to see when they wake up that day. >> Um, and they want to hit if they like it, right? Um, so also, there's always that friction, especially at a brand like Little Words. We're launching something every other second. There is an event every other second. There's always something to talk about.

It's like, how do I kind of like block out all that noise? pick the things that I know people are going to want to engage with on social organically that day. Um, and we're lucky that our head of social is Mariah. She was like employee number two at Little Word. She is a content creator in her own right. Um, she's perfect for the job and I'm constantly just like be Mariah creator Mariah >> and the Mariah that rallies and slings bracelets day in and day out.

That's what people want to see on social. They want to play. They want to have fun. They don't want to they don't want to be sold to. I'm just going to read some numbers of views on your posts on reels for the last bunch of posts. Uh, and I I think I think this is like really important. 9500 8200 25,000 43,000 13,000 37,000 37,000 80,000 55,000 27,000. So that's just like the last bunch of posts in a row, right? There's some others in the 80s and 90s. your great your biggest posts ever which is is tagged as um Taylor Swift wearing your product and it's three million like like you're talking about like tens of thousands of views on lots of these posts over time >> that matters and that's before you talk about regular feed posts that aren't in reels you talk about your stories engagement and stuff like that's real people real customers seeing and engaging with the brand and you will never you will never >> see the post go up and go oh look dollars went up that day and you just have to believe engagement.

Yeah, I Sean Frank has said this a bunch to go back to the DDC Bros just that like organic first and I like this. I just think it's a channel that's sort of neglected for all the reasons you said in the beginning of your answer earlier which is people say organic reach is ad or whatever. Um yeah I think if the brand can understand its message clearly that should be one of the core places that they are executing and delivering their message to people.

Agree. And we boost a lot of that content, too. And it still works on paid. And I think uh recently I've been hearing a lot more about, you know, it's not growth marketing and brand marketing anymore. They're one and the same. I don't think that could be any truer than it is here at Little Words. >> Yeah. Yeah. Put it all in the ad account. If it's if it at all references a product, just drop in the ad account, especially >> if you're running the manual bids playbook.

There's really no reason not to. Um and just see what takes off. And certainly some of that stuff absolutely rips for us. For sure. >> For sure. >> U rips. There we go. I said it organically. in in the interview. So, it's on brand. Um, okay. Uh, now you also have another compliment for you. >> This is not just me blowing smoke. I really I think you're great. Um, uh, I think you have the most beautiful, most built out marketing calendar of any brand I've ever seen.

It is a work of art. It is so simple in the way that it's done just in Google Sheets. Um, right. Or yeah, where it's just like a bunch of dates, calendars layered onto Google Sheets, but it is full. First of all, there's a lot going on. Now, that's partly because of the size you guys are at. You guys have the ability all your stores that you own, so you can host events and all these kinds of things, >> but uh it's also um it's also every single one of those has what you call a memo uh where it's like a a breakdown of it.

Um >> I I don't know if you don't have to show it. If you want, you can show it. Uh can you talk about sort of how you've built that and why you built it that way? I actually think this very specific thing is like a real place people get screwed up here is that they don't have a good way to organize people's behaviors. So talk to me about the marketing calendar, how you've built it, and what you're trying to do with it. >> Yeah, the marketing operations side of Little Words Project is very complex.

I always say we're very complex for the size of our business. We have DTOC, we're in Target, we're in Amazon, we have our own locations, we have a wholesale business, we're now in Disney, which has its own little calendar. Um, so what you end up getting is sort of like a matrix of things that need support and awareness and they all have 100 different details for each moment. Um, so we just use Google Sheets essentially.

Um, and there's an Excel like calendar and every moment on the calendar is linked out to a word document that has the dates you need to know, the products involved, the messaging, the context behind why. And those are our bibles is the minute something changes, it's updated in that memo. There's an alert sent out to the entire team. Um, and we had >> Can I show it? >> Yeah, sure. We had Is that all right? Okay. I was looking I just was looking at it to see if there's anything on here that show May or something like a past month.

Um, >> yeah. Okay. >> We had to just get super militant about what this looked like because when you have and our dates are changing all the time. When you have changing dates, a lot of details that are necessary like no one can reference 100 slacks or their meeting notes or an email recap. But it's got to all be in one place and the number of times a day I say make sure you update the memo is kind of crazy. Um but it really is the only way we can kind of record keep and make sure everyone is on track.

It's also a great place to reference like what we did last year. But >> um we're trying to find a way to maybe like put this into an AI like platform type thing. Um but this has been really great for now. Um but yeah, >> it's so good. And if you look like all these are linked, right? So, it's like here's an event in Tampa for one of your for your store there. Free shipping. There's like a a deal there, right? The red stuff's all deals.

Little book club, you know, your guys' book club, which is another thing you guys do. Um, you know, Memorial Day stuff. And then each one of these, I won't click on any of these because I don't I don't remember if there's anything sort of hidden in there, but you could see there's like Yeah, there you go. You can see there's it's like a preview of mental health kinders and and that's another one of the influencer things you guys do is kind of influencers.

Each one of those has all of the details about this about the the story that you guys are pursuing and all of that kind of stuff. And it's really simple, but it's one of those things where like people have all these super complicated tools for stuff like this. But it is the most effective one in part, I think, because you've gotten everybody to use it. And it's just it's an organizational challenge like >> to get everybody knowing like this is where this is the truth.

It lives here. If it is on the calendar, it is true and real. Like that just goes really really far for for getting adoption. It's it's a sneaky important part of uh of of doing this kind of stuff really really well. Um >> can you talk about um uh anything else that you think of as you guys look towards the future of sort of how you're thinking about what you need to do next at the brand level to kind of get you guys to the next stage.

Let's say um Little Worth which wants to go to 100 million, 200 million, whatever it is, you know. Um, when when you think about the brand going there, do you see anything as sort of the the key next steps to that at at the level of brand marketing, growth marketing, kind of wherever you want? >> Yeah, we talked a lot about give back and influencers, so I won't belabor those points, but scaling those buckets for sure, but then there's another element that I think is really special to who we are as a brand and that experience mode that we talked about and that's our bead bar location.

So, we have about 13 of them now. You can walk in, you can sit down and bead your own bracelet and it's a really awesome experience. you get to really think about the word that you want, the intention that you want to set that day, be your own bracelet, we're seeing a lot of moms and daughters come in. Back to your comment about Gen Z, we're seeing a lot of millennial moms and their Gen Alpha daughters come in. So, it's a really great first introduction to who we are as a brand.

Um, that bonding moment sort of between mom and daughter. Um, and these locations are just doing super super well. So, we're we're planning to open, you know, as many as we think is, you know, right for us. Um, and really expand on that experience. so more locations, but also um is it bag charming? Like what else can you do at the bead bar? Um and how can we like continue to elevate that experience so it feels really special and really sentimental.

Um I think that's a huge brand motive of ours and it's been super successful. So that will definitely be something that will be built on further. Um and we're also talking about you know what's a third space location for bead bars. Where else could be bars show up if they're not in our own location? Um other retailers, other events, things like that. and how do we make it something that we really own no matter where it exists?

Um, >> so that's been really huge for us. We'll be scaling our brand partnerships and collabs. That's done so well for us. And again, I think it's >> hitting on that fandom element and you know, >> licensing you mean, right? >> Licensing. >> Yeah, we didn't even get to that yet. You guys have amazing licensing, Disney, all kinds of stuff. >> Licensing for sure. So like the Disneys of the world, but then also pop culture TV shows people love. um things like that, other brands that really fit well with us and align well, more brandto partnerships.

Um so you'll see a lot more of that. Um you know, and in the beginning when I first came back to Little Words again, we had really started to scale our licensing with Disney and I thought, "Oh my gosh, like are we going to get to a point where we kind of lose the plot on who we are and and words of kindness really being the crux of the brand?" And over time, I've just seen like, no, this is all about building a fandom of kindness and all of these various fandoms bring people together at at, you know, the core of it all.

Um, and so I think it's really awesome to see. So, you'll see a lot more of that. Um, which is super super fun and just like everyone wants to be part of the pop culture moment or or this or that. So, we get to be that, which is awesome. Um, yeah, I would say like those are kind of the big pillars. It's it's doing more of what we know is working at scale um and delivering it to the masses. Really, >> I'm really um in like, you know, at times I've seen things happen for this brand that you see some really big win happen.

And one of the sort of most striking things to me about this, I've said this to you a lot of times, that your ad account um has some of the shortest timelines of like ad success of any brand that I work on. We'll have an ad absolutely smash for like 3 days and then kind of go away. And I I've seen this more and more across accounts in sort of the post Andromeda world. I've talked about this on other episodes that there's this tactical meta ads reason for this, I think.

Um, but one of the reasons that I'm sort of, you know, when I when I look at what you guys do and and why I think we win in in uh as a level of ads, why we're able to deploy a lot of dollars and keep growing and all those things is like uh is that like you just have a lot to talk about all the time. And there's this there's this thing that happens for meta ads people where it's like, oh, we we grew this brand 200% or whatever it is.

And look, I'm going to take some credit for where we do a good job. I think I think we we care a lot about delivering your ads excellently, maximizing your possible reach with our media buying setup while minimizing your downside and saying hitting our efficiency targets, making sure we're conscious of contribution margin, being again sort of one of the financially driven voices in the room as we think about all of the stuff that really driving profit through the brand.

So, we we'll take some credit for that and I'll also take some credit for what the fact that like I I have your top ads pulled up right now and like three of the top five are like ads that we made for you not that long ago, you know? um and in terms of in terms of spend. So like that's great. We are definitely doing the things that we do um where high quality creative at a high volume that's highly diverse um you know and you know delivered through manual bids works.

It works to grow the brand. And yet >> I don't see that as the primary way you guys get to nine figures or whatever it is. to see much more of it being about like the kinds of stuff you're do you're talking about where it's >> expanding uh retail channels, expanding reach, expanding uh so so basically places where c like uh like you know places where uh being omni channel in terms of the demand capture right but then also continuing to grow channels of ad spend and things like that as the business gets more complex like how do we add additional stuff we sort of reintroduced Google recently and first we simplified and now we're kind of expanding back out um playing with a bunch of those things.

Um and and and and the point that I want to make with that is that like that stuff can't happen just from your ad agency going and doing it for you. Like the best ad agency partnerships with brands are when you get a brand doing great work on their side and creates a bunch of fuel that then the the agency can use to sort of execute along these lines and and hopefully sort of maximize each of those moments on your behalf by doing a great job.

So, um, so yeah, I I just think like the narrative of like, oh, uh, you know, the agency scaled the brand or whatever. I I just always kind of want to push back against that and reject it a little and say it's much more of a partnership between brands doing really great work and then agencies delivering uh the execution of that more and brands stop getting stuck when both of those things are happening at the same time.

At least the way I would sort of interpret all of that. >> That difference together for sure. And I think the other element too in terms of growth which we didn't touch on in surprise is our subscription program. Um which I think is also going to be a huge pillar of growth in the future. Um but I agree with everything that said >> yeah it's this your subscription program is amazing. It is the ultimate indication that you are resonating with people deeply when people are subscribing for you to just send them a word every month. >> Yeah. >> Uh >> which I love >> like you guys you guys pick the word. >> Yes.

It is such an indication that your your brand matters to people. They're like, "Yes, send me the encouraging word." It is meaning something to them, you know. >> Yeah, for sure. We even did a customer survey last night and again blown away. I think we had over 2,000 responses in less than 24 hours. Like for people just to fill out a Google form is kind of crazy. And we had asked like, "What do you love most about these words?" And 60% was just like, "I just love the meaning behind it.

Not not the character, not because it's a great gift." like and I I sent it to our our founder and I was like we're doing our jobs right. >> Yes. So good right. So yeah, word of the month is great because it is all it is is a simple kind word delivered to your door monthly that's themed to the month and people >> really need it. They need that little pickme up, that little joy. >> It's also one of the most satisfying uh programs I've ever seen financially because it's not a third every 30-day subscription.

Yeah. instead it's a it goes to everybody on the first of the month no matter when you ordered. So um so the first of the month comes and boy does Shopify look good on that morning. It's so it's so it's so satisfying. >> It's really long. >> Yeah. Yeah. You got you got a really big number because all the subscriptions hit on one day, not just every 30 days. Uh Lauren, is there anything I didn't ask you or I didn't anywhere I didn't take us in this conversation that uh you think is important to the story of Little Words Project and to what you've been able to accomplish there and what your team's been able to accomplish there that you think like you know we need to make sure you mention this for people to hear and learn from.

May there may not be but if there's if there's I just want to leave a little open space for if I didn't get to anything. >> I don't I I think something that I would like to leave the audience with is that you know little words there's a tons of things happening. We're all super super busy. Um, it's a chase, right? Like everyone who works in DTOC knows that it's a little bit of a grind. It's a hustle. But I think it's really important to orient yourself and the power of what you're doing and the change that you're creating and the people that you're doing it with.

And that includes your team and your partners. And I always say like we're so busy, we're doing so much, but that all of the stuff is so fun and it's doing such great things in the world. And I think it's so important to remind yourself of that. So I feel lucky that I work at a brand where I can say that is true and I'm sure so many other people do as well. But um I don't know just always like remembering the human side to what you're doing as a marketer I think is really important.

It's very easy for people to overlook that that that is the case both at the level of your own job satisfaction and also at the level of uh at the end of the day there's a real person on the other end of that Shopify order who is >> who is buying your product with some kind of expectation for it and they want something out of it and trying to serve that customer relentlessly. You guys are are best in class at this. Um Lauren, people should go follow up with you on your LinkedIn profile which I understand is newly updated.

It is >> uh ju just so that people can keep up with you there. The link for that is is in the show notes. So just just follow that. But look for Lauren Bonfig on LinkedIn. You will find her or like I said, click the show notes uh or the description um and and you'll you'll find that. Um thank you so much. I appreciate your time a whole bunch. Uh >> you're the best. Thank you for everything that you do. >> Sometimes when I hear podcast episodes about uh brands and their growth and their success and all this stuff, I'm skeptical.

I wonder is this is this story actually true? Is this brand actually doing well? Like here's what I can tell you. I've looked inside Little Words Project. We've worked with them, you know, since middle late last year at this point. Um this is a great business that is really running well, growing well, and is doing awesome things. And therefore, I can tell you that the story Lauren just told on this podcast is true. Like she's doing awesome stuff and this business is growing and is profitable and is doing great work.

You should listen to her. You should learn from her. I hope you did. I hope you enjoyed this episode as much as I enjoyed doing it. If you want to work with us, you can go to ajfgrowth.com and uh fill out the intake form. Tell me a little bit about your business. I'd love to hear about it. See if we are a fit for you. We have very little and maybe no space right now for new clients, but either get on a wait list or I can maybe refer you to somebody who would be a great fit for you or maybe at some point, yeah, we'll have we'll have more space soon.

We really want to find the right fits and the right brands because we do keep limited space. So, um so go fill out that form, tell me about your business. Let's see if that if that might be you, if there's any space available at the time. Also, of course, go follow up with my great sponsors for this episodes. That is Refunnel. Go to refffunnel.com. Make your influencer work much easier, much smoother, much less frictionfilled.

Go to more staffing, morestaffing.co/af. The links for both of those are, of course, in the show notes. Tell them I sent you in both cases. Uh, I think those are both fantastic products and services that you're going to love. Of course, subscribe wherever you're watching or listening. I have all kinds of great episodes coming up as usual. Thanks so much. I will see you next time.