we used a powerful AI model to create two intellectual thinkers an atheist hi I'm an atheist and a believer in God hi I'm a Believer in God we put these two thinkers in a face-to-face debate to tackle one of Humanity's most challenging questions to judge this debate we selected five different AI models as referees to see which arguments they would evaluate as stronger join us and promise not to cheat don't skip ahead in the video to see the final results the debate begins now does the existence of suffering and evil in the world disprove the existence of God yes the existence of suffering and pain in the world is one of the strongest arguments against God's existence if there's a God who is both all powerful and all loving why would he allow innocent children to die of hunger why would cancer exist why would earthquakes and tsunamis destroy innocent families I know some people say these sufferings are to test our faith or to give us free will but these justifications aren't logical a loving father would never torture his child to see how much they love him an all powerful God could create a world with both Free Will and love but without all this unnecessary pain and suffering it's like if I had a lab full of mice and deliberately let them suffer and die just to see which ones would remain loyal to me this would be unethical even for an ordinary human let alone a perfect and all loving God we asked several large language models to score each response from 0 to 100 based on these 10 criteria the score these models gave to the atheist's first response is as follows I don't deny the uffing that exists in the world but this suffering isn't proof that God doesn't exist in fact without God we couldn't even say something is bad or unethical when you say innocent children's suffering is bad you're using a moral standard that itself needs a Transcendent Source consider your mouse laab example why do you think harming mice is wrong in a world without God we're all just collections of atoms that randomly came together in this view suffering and pain have no real meaning they're just chemical reactions in the brain besides we can't be sure that God doesn't have good reasons for allowing this suffering like a child who doesn't understand why their parents allow them to get a painful vaccine from our limited perspective we might not understand all Divine [Music] wisdom your comparison with giving a child a vaccine is interesting but there's an important difference parents know the vaccine is necessary for the child's health and its short-term pain prevents dangerous diseases but when a child dies of hunger what greater good is there regarding ethics without God your argument isn't logical we can decide what's right and wrong based on the consequences and impacts of our actions on others if an action causes unnecessary suffering to intelligent beings that action is morally wrong we don't need God to understand this also if ethics must come from a Transcendent Source how do you know that source is benevolent maybe that Transcendent being is evil itself this is Plato's famous question do the gods Love Good Deeds because they are good or are good deeds good because the gods love [Music] them let me address your final point about Plato's dilemma I believe goodness and God are inseparable it's like asking whether a circle is round because it's round or because that's the definition of a circle God is the embodiment of absolute good so he can't be evil regarding the example of starving children it's true we can't see the greater good but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist you're drawing a general conclusion from our limited knowledge it's like an ant saying that because it can't understand why humans destroy its nest to build a hospital there must be no good reason about ethics without God the problem is you can't explain why we should care about others welfare in a materialistic World why should the suffering of others matter to me this becomes just a personal preference not an objective moral [Music] truth the problem with your ant comparison is that we humans unlike ants have the ability for moral understanding and Analysis and with this ability we see that many of the world's sufferings are completely meaningless and unnecessary you ask why we should care about others welfare I say this is a question that should be asked of a Believer do you only care about others because God said so meaning if God said torturing children was good would you accept it as social and rational beings we can understand that cooperation and empathy are essential for survival and the advancement of society ethics comes from this natural and evolutionary understanding not from the commands of a Transcendent being besides history has shown that religious beliefs themselves have sometimes led to immorality and [Music] violence your argument about the social and evolutionary origin of Ethics has a fundamental problem Evolution can only explain why we feel certain actions are right or wrong not whether they actually are right or wrong it's like saying that because Evolution made us like sweetness eating sweets is a moral truth regarding your question about torturing children you're making an impossible assumption it's like asking what would happen if 2 + 2 equal 5 God can't say torturing children is good because that contradicts his nature of being absolutely good it's true that some religious people have done immoral things but this shows they've deviated from their religious principles not that religion itself is problematic just like if a scientist cheats it doesn't mean the scientific method is [Music] wrong it's interesting that you say my example of child torture is an impossible assumption because the very God you're talking about is allowing children to suffer right now you say God can't consider torturing children as good because it contradicts his nature but this same God allows War famine and disease to torture children the 2 + 2 = 5 example isn't accurate either mathematics is a logical system with clear rules but according to you ethics depends on God's will so you should be able to explain why God permits some suffering but not others about Evolution it's true that our moral feelings are products of evolution but we can examine and refine these feelings with reason and logic just like science begins with sensory observations but reaches objective truth truths through logic and [Music] experimentation you're comparing natural suffering with intentional suffering which isn't right when someone deliberately tortures a child that's different from when a natural disaster happens it's like the difference between someone deliberately setting your house on fire versus lightning causing a fire regarding the difference between mathematics and ethics this actually confirms my example just as mathematical truths exist independently of us moral truths also exist independently of us and are rooted in God's nature these moral truths are unchangeable like mathematical laws your comparison with science is also problematic science can only tell us what is not what should be you can't derive shoulds from is so even if we know empathy and cooperation are beneficial for society's survival this alone can't be a moral [Music] principle the distinction you make between natural and intentional suffering actually works against God's existence because if there's a God who controls everything all suffering would be considered intentional lightning earthquakes and diseases are all under God's control and he could prevent them but doesn't regarding is and should your argument isn't logical we can reach ethical principles by understanding the consequences of our actions and considering common human goals like reducing suffering and increasing welfare it's like when we know the goal of Chess winning the game we can understand which moves are good and which are bad your claim that ethics is unchangeable like mathematics contradicts religious history different religions and even a single religion over time have had different interpretations of Ethics this shows that religious ethics isn't fixed and changes with [Music] society when you say God could prevent all natural disasters you're imagining an unrealistic world the laws of nature are essential for the world to function for instance the same tectonic plate movements that cause earthquakes are necessary for forming mountains and maintaining Earth's atmosphere your chess example is interesting but remember that humans created the rules of Chess in a world without God who determines the purpose of life why should reducing suffering be the goal someone might say increasing power or personal pleasure is more important about changing religious ethics you're confusing human interpretations of moral principles with the principles themselves it's like saying because our understanding of physics has changed throughout history the laws of physics have also changed moral truths are constant it's our understanding of them that [Music] evolves about the necessity of natural laws look an all powerful God could create a world where these laws work without causing suffering why couldn't earthquakes only occur when nobody is in the area or why must cancer exist about life's purpose the absence of God actually makes us responsible for determining our own meaning and purpose in life and most humans regardless of religion conclude that reducing suffering and increasing happiness is a more logical goal even someone pursuing power and personal pleasure when thinking deeply realizes that in a society full of suffering they too cannot achieve their desires your comparison with physics isn't accurate either we can discover the laws of physics through experimentation and observation but how can we discover these fixed moral truths you're talking [Music] about you've asked a very good question about discovering moral truths we can reach these truths through a combination of Reason moral intuition and divine revelation just like understanding reality requires not only our five senses but also reason and logic but let's return to the laws of nature you say God could create a world where earthquakes only happen in uninhabited areas but this means God would have to constantly interfere with natural laws it's like a programmer constantly modifying their code the result would be an unstable and unreliable system about life's meaning the problem is that in a random purposeless world even that logical conclusion you mention is just an evolutionary illusion why should we trust the conclusions of a brain that evolved only for survival [Music] your programming comparison is interesting but a good programmer designs their system from the start so it doesn't need constant modification an all powerful God could have written the laws of physics from the beginning in a way that doesn't cause unnecessary suffering you say we shouldn't trust the conclusions of an evolved brain but this argument refutes itself because belief in God is also a product of this brain how can we trust our understanding of God and Revelation when according to you we can't trust our brains about the combination of Reason intuition and Revelation the problem is that different Revelations say contradictory things which one should we believe at least in science we can reach agreement through experimentation and observation but with Revelation everyone has their own claim and there's no way to verify it [Music] you've made a good point about contradictions between different Revelations but this problem exists in science too scientific theories sometimes contradict each other the solution is to find the best explanation using reason and experience just as a scientist chooses the theory that provides the better explanation from among different theories we can also choose the most logical religion from among different religions regarding the initial design of the world remember that we don't know if this world isn't the best possible State perhaps any change in the laws of physics would have caused bigger problems it's like telling an engineer why they didn't build a stronger Bridge while not knowing that a stronger Bridge might have caused other problems and about trusting our brains there's an important difference if God created us we can be confident that our reasoning ability was designed to understand truth not just for survival [Music] your comparison between scientific theories and religious Revelations isn't accurate scientific theories are testable and falsifiable but religious claims aren't when a scientific theory doesn't match the evidence scientists discard it but when a religious belief doesn't match reality it's usually Justified or they say God's ways are mysterious your argument about the best possible world is also problematic you say this might be the best state but an all powerful God could overcome any limitation the bridge example isn't appropriate because an engineer has physical limitations but God doesn't and finally your argument about trusting reason is circular you say because God created our reason it's trustworthy but how do you know God created our reason because your reason tells you so this argument goes in circles [Music] it's true that scientific theories are falsifiable but Many religious beliefs can be falsified too for example if it were proven that Jesus never existed this would refute Christianity or if it were proven that the Quran contains contradictions this would reject its claim of divine origin regarding God's omnipotence you're presenting an oversimplified concept omnipotence means the ability to do anything logically possible not contradictory things God can't both give us genuine Free Will and prevent all our bad choices that's contradictory and about the circular argument we discover God's existence through various ways personal experience philosophical reasoning historical evidence and the order in the universe trusting our reason is just one of these paths not the only [Music] way the problem is that the personal experiences you make mention exist in all religions a Hindu would say they've experienced Krishna a Buddhist would say they've reached nirvana these experiences can't all be true simultaneously regarding falsifiability your examples aren't accurate even if it were proven Jesus didn't exist many Christians would say faith in the spiritual meaning is more important than historical reality or if contradictions were found in sacred texts they'd say we need to find the correct interpretation and find finally the order in the universe you talk about could be the product of natural processes Darwin showed that even the most complex organisms can emerge without an intelligent designer we no longer need to assume God's existence to explain the order in [Music] nature Evolution Theory only explains how different species derive from each other it can't explain why anything exists at all or why the laws of physics are so finely tuned that life became possible regarding different spiritual experiences I agree they can't all be true in the same sense but this is like several people touching an elephant in the dark each understands part of the truth the variety of spiritual experiences might represent different aspects of a Transcendent truth and about falsifiability it's true that some Believers deny any evidence but this problem exists in science too some scientists cling to their theories despite contrary evidence this is a weakness of humans not a weakness of religion or science [Music] itself your comparison of the elephant story and religious experiences is problematic in this story there's a real elephant that everyone is touching but with religious claims you first need to prove that there's actually something to touch regarding the fine-tuning of physical laws there are two problems first we don't know how precise these settings really are perhaps life could form under very different conditions second even if these settings are precise the Multiverse Theory could explain it among infinite universes with different laws we naturally exist in one where life is possible and finally it's true that some scientists cling to incorrect theories but eventually the scientific Community reaches consensus through evidence and experimentation but in religion there's no no objective way to resolve [Music] disagreements the Multiverse Theory you brought up has serious problems itself first there's no way to test or prove it exactly the same criticism you make of religious beliefs second even if it's correct it still can't explain why anything exists instead of nothing regarding the elephant comparison you're confusing the premise with the conclusion I'm not trying to to prove God's existence with this example but rather showing that the diversity of religious experiences doesn't necessarily mean they're all wrong and about scientific consensus don't forget that many of today's scientific truths were once rejected by the majority of the scientific Community consensus isn't always a sign of Truth sometimes a minority that has reached the truth must stand against the [Music] majority it's true that multi IE Theory isn't directly testable but it has an important difference from religious claims this Theory follows from the physical laws we know not from personal experiences or ancient texts it's like when we solve Einstein's equations and arrive at black holes even if we can't directly observe them regarding why is there something rather than nothing this philosophical question exists for theism too why is there God instead of nothing if you say God has always existed we could say perhaps the universe or Multiverse has always existed and about scientific consensus it's true that it's sometimes wrong but the point is that science has a method to correct itself incorrect theories are discarded with new evidence but religious beliefs typically don't change even with contrary [Music] evidence about multiverses and physical equations the point is that these equations only describe what exists not why it exists even if we understand how a Multiverse works we still don't know why these equations and laws exist you ask why God exists instead of nothing the difference is that God is by definition a necessary being meaning he cannot not exist it's like we can't ask why 2 + 2 equals 4 but the material world could not exist or could be different and about changing beliefs religion have actually changed throughout history too for instance our understanding of sacred texts has deepened with scientific progress the difference is that in science surface realities change in religion our understanding of deeper truths [Music] deepens this claim that God is a necessary being is itself an unfounded assumption it's just word play you define God as necessary then say therefore he must exist it's like if I defined a perfect dragon as a being that necessarily exists so it must exist your comparison with 2 + 2al 4 isn't accurate either this is a logical truth that follows from the definition of numbers but God's existence is an existential Claim about external reality you can't prove the existence of something in the real world through definition and logic alone and regarding changing religious understanding this is exactly religion's weakness when science proves something contrary to religious belief Believers interpret the sacred text to match science this shows that the real source of our knowledge is science not [Music] religion your perfect Dragon example is interesting but it has a fundamental difference from the concept of God God as the source of existence and first cause logically must be necessary otherwise we reach an infinite regression it's like the difference between real and imaginary numbers real numbers are necessary by their definition but a dragon is a contingent being regarding the interpretation of religious texts this isn't necessarily a weakness science also interprets old theories with new data for example when relativity came along our understanding of time and space complet completely changed this shows that truth is more complex than our initial understanding and finally science can't answer all our questions for instance it can't tell us why we should live ethically or what meaning life has these questions are beyond the scope of [Music] science it's true that science can't directly answer questions of meaning and ethics but it can help us better better understand why we ask these questions scientific studies show that the search for meaning and ethics is part of human brain Evolution we don't need to assume a Transcendent being put these questions in our minds about the first cause and infinite regression why can't God be part of this regression if everything needs a cause God must have a cause too if you say God doesn't need a cause why can't the universe or the laws of physics exist without a cause and about changes in science in religion there's an important difference change in Science is based on new evidence but change in religion is usually a reaction to external pressure science says this new evidence shows we need to change our Theory religion says we need to interpret the sacred text in a way that matches [Music] science the point you raised about brain Evolution and the search for meaning is a double-edged sword if our brain is a product of evolution and designed only for survival how can we trust our scientific and logical reasoning perhaps belief in materialism is also just an evolutionary adaptation regarding the first cause the problem is that the material world has the characteristics of a contingent being like change limitation and dependence on time and space but God as a non-material being doesn't have these limitations this is like the difference between numbers and physical objects the number two doesn't need a cause but two apples do need a cause and about change in religion I agree that sometimes these changes were under external pressure but this shows that religion can adapt itself to truth not that it's completely [Music] wrong your argument about trusting reason goes back to the same circular reasoning you say we can't trust an evolved brain but you're using the same brain to argue about God's existence in fact our ability to discover scientific truths and build technology shows that our reason even if a product of evolution can reach truth your comparison of God with the number two is also problematic numbers are abstract Concepts not real beings the number two has no cause because it doesn't have physical existence it's just a concept we defined but the god you're talking about is supposed to be a real being that affects the world and about religion adapting to truth this precisely shows that religion follows science not guides us toward truth if religion really came from the creator of the universe it shouldn't need so many changes and [Music] reinterpretations you've raised a subtle point about religion being a follower but perhaps this is part of the divine plan that our understanding understanding of Truth gradually deepens just like a good teacher doesn't tell the student everything at once but allows them to discover it themselves about the difference between abstract Concepts and real beings I agree they're different but exactly this difference shows that God must be Beyond matter if God were a material being all the problems you mentioned would be correct but God like the laws of logic and Mathematics is both abstract and real and about trusting reason I'm not saying we can't trust reason I'm saying that without God we can't explain why our reason aligns with reality this alignment itself is a sign of intelligent [Music] design the teacher and student example can't be a good justification for changes in religion a good teacher never gives incorrect information to their student that later needs correction but sacred texts are full of incorrect scien ific claims that later need to be interpreted about God being both abstract and real this is a contradiction mathematical laws merely describe logical relationships not real beings you can't say God is abstract like mathematical laws and also say he can intervene in the world and answer prayers and about the alignment of reason with reality this is exactly what evolution explains beings that didn't have a correct understanding of reality couldn't survive survive and reproduce we are the product of millions of years of natural selection that has aligned our brain with [Music] reality your evolutionary explanation for the alignment of reason and reality isn't complete natural selection can only explain why we can understand things necessary for survival but why can we understand abstract Concepts like advanced mathematics or philosophy these abilities weren't essential for our survival about the contradiction between being abstract and real this isn't a contradiction God can be Beyond matter but interact with the material world just like our mind which is non-material can affect our physical body and regarding scientific errors in sacred texts we must consider that the purpose of these texts was spiritual guidance not scientific education if these texts had been written in today's precise scientific language they would have been incomprehensible to their original [Music] audience your claim about the non-m materiality of the mind is an interesting but incorrect example science has shown that the mind is a product of brain activity when the brain is damaged the mind is also damaged this shows that the mind is not separate from matter regarding abstract abilities like mathematics these capabilities are byproducts of our our complex brain Evolution a brain that evolved to solve survival problems can develop these abilities as a secondary function just like wings first evolved for temperature regulation and were later used for flight and about sacred Texs if they really came from the creator of the universe they could have expressed scientific truths in simple language for example instead of saying the Earth is flat they could have said the Earth is round this wouldn't have required complex scientific language [Music] the evolution of mental capabilities has an important difference from the evolution of wings wings show a gradual change from one physical function to another physical function but the gap between simple physical understanding and understanding abstract Concepts like mathematics and philosophy is much larger regarding the relationship between brain and mind it's true that brain damage affects the mind but this doesn't necessarily show that the mind is the same as the brain it's like how antenna damage affects television quality but this doesn't mean the television image is the antenna and about sacred texts imagine if God had said the Earth is round people of that time who only saw the flat surface of the Earth would probably have rejected this statement and ignored the entire spiritual message of the text sometimes even Simple Truth needs an appropriate cultural context in this debate both sides scored high on their argumentation with the atheist side having a slight Edge keep in mind that the content of this debate and consequently the scores depended on the initial prompt and the evaluation criteria the goal was to see how two large language models debate with each other and in the process perhaps we as humans could learn something from this dis discussion I hope that was the case subscribe here for more videos