when a surgeon goes in and starts carving you up you live with the scars and you live with the memories of what happened as exciting as becoming a transgender female was going back to being Walt was even more exciting in this episode our correspondent Serena denyari reports on the process of detransitioning or reversing a gender transition she talked to two individuals who did transitioned for very different reasons do you believe when you had gender reassignment surgery that you actually became a woman no no that's probably the greatest medical fraud of all time the idea of helping people with hormones and surgery does far more harm to the individual long-term and is not appropriate treatment for people suffering with uh mental disorders everybody who struggles with this has you know gender dysphoria but underneath gender dysphoria is a comorbid disorder such as schizophrenia bipolar disorder dissociative disorders we've been duped society's been duped it's all phony baloney throughout my transition I've often been faced with haunting questions did I make the right choice to change my body was my transition worth the expenses the daily ridicule and the harassment I've wondered whether or not this is the life I truly want to lead I went to Phoenix Arizona to speak to Walt heyer one of the most visible and outspoken examples of a person who reversed their gender transition fire has made numerous media appearances on conservative Outlets speaking against the validity of gender affirming medical treatment Walt who lived as a woman for eight years now believes that transitioning was an unnecessary Journey there's always these little creepy questions that no one wants to talk about because they're sort of taboo are you really a woman was it superficial was it was it real I thought the only way that I can really prove whether it's real or not is to de-transition [Music] I transitioned in 1983 and began to de-transition in about 1990-1991.

I've gone back to being Walt and so I'm married now for 21 years and and that's in brief my journey I kind of want to rewind a little bit just to get a bit more of your back story it started at the age of four or five for me you know I was very curious about gender grandma was a seamstress whatever happened I ended up with a purple chiffon dress at the age of four or five I was sort of taken back by how she admired me so much as a little girl in that purple dress and it planted a seed within me that I was much better as a girl than I was as a boy time went on and in April of 1983 I underwent gender reassignment surgery and became Laura Jensen I had the full top and bottom surgeries the initial reaction was really powerful I felt like I had finally made it I found all the roadblocks were hitting me about getting work and so I ended up uh homeless and I started looking in my own life I began to think well was this really necessary was taking hormones and undergoing radical surgery really going to resolve the issues that got you to this place but the detransition process is not quick it takes time because you have built all these things around your life as a female you have all these things in place and to sort of dismantle them I found is really difficult much more so than it was to transition there have been points where you have described your body as being broken when a surgeon goes in and starts carving you up you have all kinds of scars all over you you live with the scars and you live with the memories of what happened uh it is categorically scientifically intellectually biblically or any other way possible to change from one gender to the other gender reassignment surgery really doesn't make you a female it's much more to being a woman than just having some cosmetic surgery and hormones when you start playing with that design that God has for you you know you end up in the in the dumpy and what is the optimal outcome out of all of your public speaking you're outspokenness about detransitioning what is the goal you're trying to achieve here the goal is all I want to do is raise awareness so that if anybody going into the transition process has doubts or concerns for them to go and get counseling ultimately to prevent people from an unnecessary surgery that could hurt their life that's all I spoke to Dr Toby Meltzer a leading surgeon who specializes in transgender patients to understand more about the requirements to get surgery gender affirmative surgery and for male to female it's a year or more of hormone therapy a year more of living full-time and two letters from uh from therapists are required for surgery so that being said I mean if you look at genital surgery that's like the the one that is irreversible in most I mean irreversible in the sense that we can't put it back it'll never be the same we have a but did a published outcome study back in 2002 we had a total of about almost 300 patients who responded to a survey and we had three patients who had regrets from having surgery out of that number now of those patients they didn't actually regret having the surgery as much as having to give up part of their lives to have the surgery meaning family members jobs and things that they couldn't felt like they could replace although Waltz D transitioned because of her grad his story is not indicative of everyone who de-transitions I spoke to Robin canner who once the transitioned as well but for entirely different reasons after transitioning from male to female early in life canner was assaulted shaken by the incident she de-transitioned back to mail shortly thereafter years later Kanna regained her confidence and has transitioned back to living as a woman it got to a boiling point probably when I was like 19 my dad had just passed away and I decided like this is the time I'm going to transition I socially transitioned I changed my name and it wasn't good and I'd always sort of feel less than women I was sort of really going at it alone and it was a very isolating experience right I didn't have a therapist to go to and be like this is what's going on I'm having a hard time so without any tools it all sort of collapsed and it collapsed one night where I was I was freelance photographer at the time and a gig got out like around two three a.m and I couldn't afford a cap home so I was walking home and the walk home was about like a half hour walk and three men sort of started yelling at me and using language like who's this training and all these things like that and then they sort of came over and pushed me around and I was able to basically run out of the situation and I was like I gotta get out of here like this isn't like this is not working for me and I shut down right no language no tools no conversations I just sort of shut down and uh I chopped off all my hair and I didn't talk about gender for two years I mean I did transitioned because there was CIS people in my life that sort of forced me to detransition like I couldn't live like I wanted to live right so I took some time away and then I went back to it and I feel really good that I did I there's never a day where i'm like I really wish I wouldn't have done that like I'm so glad that I continued to explore gender as my life went back together I I began to see that I was really getting real I liked who I was I I didn't have to identify as a transgender that kind of bothered me because I didn't particularly like being a transgender after listening to hires past rhetoric regarding the trans Community I felt the need to confront him about his personal views in many ways you are a physical embodiment of a lot of the baggage and anxiety that I think a lot of trans women maybe quietly think to themselves but at the end of the day for me I at this point in my life I do feel like it was worth it so do you think transitioning is a viable option for some people I think it's certainly a viable option for some people I I don't ever find them because they don't contact me but what do you see when you look at me do you see me as a woman do you see transgender women as women or do you see us as something else well I I again I think my views is skewed because I was one you know so I think um I my heart goes out to anybody who has gone through this I see you as a a a female who is happy with what they're doing obviously you're very successful and you present yourself well so um you know bless you for most people we are in a constant state of transition and detransition in all aspects of life our Journeys are not linear but instead a fluid and ever-changing series of decisions and options as exciting as becoming a transgender female was going back to being Walt was even more exciting there's also trans people who have an incredibly challenging time just living in the world so it should come as no surprises sometimes we need to take a second to recover before we go back at it again this is Ginger's we get very stuck on this one way to live it's one ideal but the reality is is like people are different they have different experiences they're going to do different things it doesn't invalidate each other [Music] to help us further explore the complex topic of de-transitioning I sat down with Laura A Jacobs a gender therapist who specializes in transgender issues I'm very candid in the video about questions I faced myself about my own transition you know because my journey hasn't been easy by any means and and oftentimes I've I've wondered if these questions made me less of a trans person can you talk to me a little bit about whether or not it is normal to experience questions and concerns first of all it is perfectly normal in fact you know it when we're changing something as fundamental to who we are as our gender this is such an important part such a central part of our identities think about it gender plays a role in almost every facet of Life any major decision is going to have some ambivalence some regret some second thoughts for most people so nowadays we really think of that as actually healthy and Waltz in the video referred to trans affirming Health Care as phony baloney and the greatest medical fraud of all time you as someone who's a mental health professional what did that sort of make you think it's really sad that these ideas still persist because unfortunately the data really shows otherwise the data really shows that trans people when we are affirmed when we are supported thrive um we do far better in every measure of mental health and in fact what we're finding now is that there's far more negative consequences of the regret for people not transitioning Than People transitioning and what are some of the nuances that got missed when we talk about detransitioning and gender in general gender is such a fundamental part of who we are and how we relate to the world and for Trans people we have this wonderful opportunity to be pulling that apart to be questioning that in a really honest and direct and non-judgmental way for many people that leads them to a place where they have explored one gender maybe they've explored another gender maybe they've explored multiple different ways of living different genders before they find what they feel is the way they want to live their life what struck me about Robin's experience of detransitioning is that she talked about a profound lack of support and resources is this something that is common or are we seeing a rise in in trans trans supportive resources and infrastructure both the stories you raise really show that there's a lot of social pressure for Trans people Walt Ramen they both faced a lot of difficulty moving through the world moving through Society what we are finding more and more is that it is not being trans that makes life difficult for people what I would say is that the best thing we can do is create a society in which we accept people and are supportive of people regardless of how they express themselves thank you so much for joining me and helping me unpack some of these ideas my pleasure thank you there's clearly a lot to unpack from Serena's reporting and we'd love to hear your thoughts so leave us a comment below and thanks for watching hey hey [Music] hey hey [Music] hey hey hey [Music] hey hey hey hey hey [Music] all right