Process vs Chaos In Startups transcript

A Google style of carefulness was being applied by a startup whose sole job was to explore the risky path. >> You can end up where the process becomes this big >> [music] >> and the actual product is this big. It It'd be like if if the bolt factory there was a thousand process people and one guy making bolts. And one bolt a day comes out of the factory. Welcome to Dalton plus Michael. Today we're going to talk about We might even debate Oh. >> slightly.

Process, procedure, the P-word. Bureaucracy, meetings. And the kind of the prompt for this one is um confusing an organized process with an effective process and confusing chaos with ineffective or bad outcomes. Yeah, I mean I think the context here is you and I have debated this for many years as colleagues. >> Would people guess which I don't know that people >> Yeah, what do you think? Who's the pro process and anti-process? >> Yes.

And who's the chaos guy? >> Yeah, who's I think they would assume I'm the chaos guy. I think they might. People who know me would never >> It's a great point. You're right. I actually have no idea if people understand that I'm the anti-process guy >> [laughter] >> and that you're the pro-process guy. I don't know if that's obvious. Beats me, man. Tell us in the comments. Tell us in the comments. >> [laughter] >> Um and so yeah, so the general debate is Michael would be like, "Oh, we need a structured process to do X, Y, and Z." >> Yes.

And I'm like, "Why?" Yes. >> That sounds bad. We would end in many different places. >> Yeah. It depends on the case. [laughter] There's going to be some process and maybe no process. Yeah. But it was always an interesting debate because it was always a I always liked the debate because process should always be treated skeptically. Yeah. It should otherwise it'll otherwise it'll Exactly. >> take over. Someone has to be the devil's advocate for any new process.

And you played that role. >> [laughter] >> Fair enough. Fair enough. So how should people think about useful process versus bad process? Useful process, so to take the opposite to to argue the opposite side that I'm usually on, useful process is the following. Once a best practice exists Yes. >> you should just do the best practice. Otherwise you're just wasting a ton of time. Think about um automation, like uh the Industrial Revolution, where if there's one way to make a bolt on an assembly line, just keep making the bolts.

Those bolts are going to be better in every way than a bespoke welder trying to make a bolt by hand. And so process in its best form is just establishing a state-of-the-art best practice and ramping it way up and there's no question about how to do something properly. Well, like process in its best form, I love that bolt example. produces a great bolt which is better >> every time. >> Yeah, it's it's perfect [laughter] and and the process identifies uh errors.

Yes. >> Like part of the process of making the bolt is the camera detects, "Oh, this bolt's bad." and it throws it off the assembly line. So yeah, the an assembly line is an example of fantastic process. And a great test for whether you have a good process is the outcome good? Yes. And and getting >> Yeah, and consistent. And you and you know it it's provably good. Like you can actually measure that it's effective. >> Yeah.

What about bad process? Bad process is just like any classic bureaucracy where it exists to grow itself. It's almost like a dare I say cancer where it's a machine that all it wants is to have more power or more people in the process and it becomes a vector to basically take over everything such that you know, someone has to weigh in on every decision and has control over how decisions are made. There's a whole lot of people employed in trying to keep the process going.

It's like a jobs program. And so you can end up where the process becomes this big and the actual product is this big. It It'd be like if at the bolt factory there was a thousand process people and one guy making bolts. >> And one bolt a day comes out of the factory. [laughter] Yes. >> That would be bad process. I think an an interesting thing about process is when people reach for it as a solution. And I can say it from personal experience there are a couple different times where I reach for it as a solution.

Um so one is like the same problem keeps happening. The second is fear or anxiety. If I'm doing something for the first time and I'm afraid that it's not going to work sometimes process gives me comfort. Well, if I made a plan like, you know, if I'm cooking something for the first time, that have I looked up recipes and da da da. Um so personal fear and anxiety, but I also think fear and anxiety for other people. Like I actually think process can reduce anxiety.

That doesn't necessarily mean the output will be good. >> [laughter] >> But I do think that um a lot of process comes from people being afraid and anxious Yep. and wanting the comfort. And chaos might be comforting when the result's good. It's rarely comforting during the chaos. >> [laughter] >> Um it's it's often especially for a certain type of people, it's often anxiety-inducing during the chaos. Yeah. Um On the flip side though what's so funny is if you were to ask me to think back through the biggest innovations or things that have triggered the biggest innovations or change or positive things, they've all started with chaos.

They've all started with something breaking and having to not follow Yeah, my >> whatever the plan was. >> My mental model for this is the more something looks like producing bolts the more process works and the more that it looks like producing art or a hit song >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. the less you can be like, "Here's our Here's our process." And then And again, if you think about what people are mad about with, you know, the entertainment industry, Hollywood or the music industry, it's process >> Yes. seeping its way MCU, yes.

Right? Like the Avengers movie, yes. That's like that's process screwing up art. And so that's the continuum is how much is this art and how much is this a bolt. I like that cuz if I if I go back to my new favorite term, NBA-fication there is this kind of theory that any output could be optimized with process. And like yeah, if you can make a hit movie without process, I feel that I can make a better movie with with great process. >> Yeah, let's just license some some comic book guys and >> Brad Pitt.

Let's you know, like And that's literally the entertainment industry these days. It's like like NBA-fication of creating art. >> Yes. And so I think that it's tricky because um to your point, it's funny cuz when you're saying art, I might say innovation. Also this makes it kind of hard to invent a new way of doing things. When you need to invent a new way of doing things, you kind of need the freedom to maybe do stuff that's unpopular Yep. that is scary that may be more expensive than people right?

Like all the things that process tried to control for. And so I think what gets tricky is like, okay, sometimes I need to be using my creative brain, sometimes I need to be using my bolt brain. How do I choose, right? And it's like well, you know when you're trying to do your, you know, fundraising paperwork, I probably using my bolt brain, right? Like >> [laughter] >> You need to write up your own legal docs from first principles.

But like if I'm trying to make my customer service go better am I innovating? I mean you you definitely want to measure it like it's bolts. Yeah. Like I think for a lot of process you want to start with measurement. I agree. But like do you just want to hire the customer service guy from the other company? >> It's not a bad place to start. Tricky though. Yeah, yeah, I understand. It's tricky. Like I always kind of will ask a founder where are the top three places you want to innovate?

Like like you probably can't innovate across 20 zones. If you think customer service is going to be your differentiator, maybe you don't hire that 20-year person. But if it ain't >> [laughter] >> Yeah, like, you know, where do you want to put your innovation points? I also think that there's something about process as a lover of process I love iterating process. Like one of the things I really enjoy is okay, the factory is producing bolts too slow.

Yeah. How do we tweak the factory? And I think that sometimes when I encounter people who don't like process, they don't engage in iterating the process. And so it's a tricky thing cuz like some of these things have to be done bolty. Yep. And if you're not tweaking it and fixing it, so now you've got a bad factory. You know, it's like we know a lot of people who are like, "No meetings ever." And then it's like and no written specs cuz I don't want to be held in the >> [laughter] >> I mean this may be too in the weeds, but I think a great example of good process is um code reviews.

Yeah. >> [laughter] >> A written spec like Well, no, no, let's not even go to the spec part, but basically you know, the the default thing a startup does is everyone can just ship to production and then you break the website and then you're like, "Yeah, maybe not that." And you you have to do a couple of layers before you can ship to production. I might even argue just staging. Yeah. But any But But I think this is a you know, this is an interesting point where it's kind of like being too extreme on either side scares you.

Like I think what was so fun working together is that we could play like process dude and like chaos dude because we knew the middle would be in like >> Yeah. we we would kind of get the best of both worlds. I think that both of us without the other one that would have had to be a little bit more in the middle. I think that's >> [laughter] >> well said. And and where this comes into play when you think about it for a lot of folks out there is innovator's dilemma which is a lot of businesses that are going to get killed by AI disruptors they're going to have to ignore all the process people.

Right? This is you know to to recap innovator's dilemma for everybody. It's if a business is really successful doing A and then this new B thing comes out and it seems potentially disruptive. Businesses will tend not to do B even though they know they should because it screws up A. Like there's too many stakeholders that are excited about doing A and that's the whole business is A. So why would we blow up our own business?

It opens the door, right? It opens the armor in the business. It's funny because that can happen for startups too. I was talking to a startup in the kind of EdTech space and you know AI is enabling to do things that inconceivable two years ago. But they were saying to me like oh well the kids wouldn't want to they really want to read Pokemon books. But of course we can't show them Pokemon cuz of the copyright and I'm like I respect Pokemon.

I respect copyright. For the record. Okay. >> [laughter] >> All right. Duly noted my friend. It's on the record. >> my record is muddy on this topic. >> [laughter] >> But like it was interesting that like a a Google style of carefulness was being applied by a startup whose sole job was to explore the risky paths. And I think like this is a kind of a meta point that I keep on telling founders is like hey the the the beautifully blazed straight like autobahn style road the big company gets to walk that road.

You are chopping down things and you're in the for you're blazing the path and like you might have to bend some rules to blaze that path but if you're walking the autobahn path they're going to they're going to run you over every time. Like you represent the risk in the economy. Like that is your job. You're the risk. Embrace it cuz when you don't embrace it you're just lying to yourself. You still are the risk even when you're walking the autobahn.

Yeah. [laughter] Amen. So um it was an interesting thing. I think I convinced him to let the kids read Pokemon books. >> [laughter] >> All right. That sounds like a good wrap-up. Thank you Dalton. >> Sounds good. Thanks Michael.